New Mars Forums

SarK0Y

While I might present ideas from my personal (Which is a culturally infulenenced) bias, and others are of course welcome to adopt, or question them, my primary purpose for joining the hive with you at this moment is a sanity check, so thanks for the "Check".

I will attempt to present some arguments, which do not invalidate your statement, but might add qualifications to it.

These will only be related as arguments as to why I think we need to maintian concious awareness of the problems that the hive mind can present.  I do not present them as absolute, but as perceptions, which to me are supported by significant evidence in history and in my personal experiences.  Many are drawn from books written by persons living in previous time periods.  So the samples span time longer then my era or immediate culture.

1) "The crowd, A Study of the Popular Mind." by Gustave Le Bon.  A crowd of idiots is as smart as a crowd of Einsteins.  The hive mind of a crowd is an idiot.

2) "Woman And Power In History" by Amaury De Riencourt. On his word, I draw that prehistoric culture myth had primarily female diety, and were cyclical in nature, up until the advent of the Hebrews and the Persians, and the emergence of male diety represented a shift that helped to create the modern world, linear thinking, the ability to rise (Or fall) from the limits of cyclical thinking.  I add on my own that women have 4 or 5 spoken words for each word that a man will speak.

3) My own assertions are that we have an opportunity to rise (Or fall) from our current cycle, and a concious awareness of the process is required by individuals who choose it and who can find it.  The crowd will always opt for the tried and true, bread and the circus, because a crowd is a idiot.  The idiot will then make it impossible for the idividuals who can make a difference towards rising to do so, rendering social energy into non productive activities.  Productive being difined in this case as capability, capability to access a new frontier.

4) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretty_Good_Privacy  I regaurd encription as a waste of my time.  Although I had planned to expand my programming capabilities in that direction, after those idiots did 9/11, I concluded any such activity would draw moronic response from our national hive, and concluded that my efforts would be better invested in other things.  However the philosophy of the software has value I believe.  The notion that privacy and personal property drive the ability to rise above a cycle.  Otherwise, if anyone can walk off with your personal intellectual and material property, (A tribal culture), everyone knows your business, then the hive has much too much of an edge over the individual, and the individual wastes it's time and weakens itself against competitors and is driven out of the gene and meme pool.

5) We need to channel to the degree that we can the path that is taken.  The balance is between those who read books, and those who write books.  The word book symbolizes recorded memes.  Many many people follow books, and do not think.  This can been very efficient as to capture the matrial goods and to dominate the gene pool and exclude other types, but it's capability is primarily in reptition, cycles.  Writing a book requires that you have something to write (Worthless or Useful).

6) In this current world as in previous worlds, there are emergent cultures writting new things, and there are heritage cultures clinging to old things from books.  Muscle and bones.  A good body is not all bone.  A good body is not all muscle.

7) An Astronaut recently said that motion appears to be connected to mind.  He said that there is an organism that when young is free swimming, but when older anchors itself to the bottom of the sea, and then eats it's central nervous system.
Trees do not have what we would call a brain.  Read between the lines if you like.

8) I have just experienced an era where a baby boom thought outside of the box, and invented new technologies, then a power group invented as many crimes to harass them with as they could.  Crashed the process to possess it, then redirected it to provide controll.  Even so I have benifited, since it turned out I could be of service, but most of my generation ended up being put into chains by their own inventions, so that a group of people could bend reality and choose the winners and loosers not on the basis of merit, but on the basis of selfish inherited unconcious motivation to procreate at the expense of others.  Not something unusual, but really quite predictable from history.

I guess I think it comes down to making the point that you should look before you leap.  The mouth and ear are one thing, the hand and the eye another.  Except for the deaf, mostly hiving is done with words.  What about the eye and hand?  Inventions, individuality lives there more.  Since access to space is to a large extent a question of manipulation of material objects the eye and hand are more important.  But yes manipulation of groups which are inherantly idiots is also important.  This is where we could likely hope for intellegent wise women who do not make the focus of their lives the minipulation of playboy men disguised as leaders (Who then recipocate by channeling unearned material goods to their matrons).

I think I will go to the gym again.

Awareness that's all I am asking for.

Perhaps you will tollerate my comments.

I have pondered things like this, not quite the same but related.

For instance I have tried too peer ahead to the path that might be taken, to inhabit some of the Moons of Jupiter or perhaps a cold Earth like planet around another star.

I have considered just how efficiency and survival might lead the descendants of the humans or some other alien population.

My solution for cold worlds is to be able to master oceans under ice sheets, since smaller outer worlds seem to offer this, and inner worlds at best offer dry rigolyth and ice at shaded locations.

I have considered an engineered human connectable to a diriviative of a primitive whale.  With a avatar robot on the surface also connected.  The "Whale" which would have legs so as to walk in tunnels in the ice shell, but could also swim in the ocean below.  The "Human" would perhaps have minimal lungs, but would be connectable by a placenta type organ to the "Whale".
The "Whale" would digest primarily "Hydrogen" and an Oxydizer for energy and would derive it's other needs from the water, and perhaps the "Human".  As it would not eat with it's mouth the human would ride in it.  And so keep warm. "Johna" : )
The human would be able to disconnect from the whale when in the tunnels.  The tunnels could be habitable and warm, lined with manufactured materials.

The brain of the whale could be cybernetic.  The Robot on the cold surface of course also so.  Those three minds could be linked as in the rats, so the human could be aware of self or the whale's experiences, or be aware of the experiences of the robot working an very low temperatures on the surface.

But this would be a different life form, not a humans as we conceive of it.

What would be it's psycology?

Beyond that we have the danger of the hive mind.

Individual humans could be as dim witted as bees, if they were all linked together.  The hive would direct them.

Where the danger is is the conflict between efficiency and capability.  Sadly, efficiency is what nature favors, not intellegence.

The limits of communication have caused humans to have atonomous awareness as individuals.  1,000,000 chimps typing on keyboards might result in one of them stumbiling on a clever new thing.  One hive mind is one hive mind.

In my opinion verbal language has already damaged the evolution of the human mind.  We do need sufficient efficiency to acutalize material goods, to actually live out the dreams that we may have, but their is a danger of generating an unwise organism that only exists to spread, a virus in it's effect of existance.

There may not be a thing we can do about this, but I think stupid ant hives would be a sad ending for our heritage, when we are about to have the chance to live the dream of Solar system and perhaps even interstellar expansion.

On the other side of this is might an organism be created that can solve all puzzles in the universe in 1 hour?  Then what does it do to amuse itself?  Do we wreck our existance, our happiness, by achiving to much in the wrong direction?  Like a child who enjoyed swinging on a swing, but now we are adults, and even seniors, and would we enjoy it now?

Anyway I have not developed thinking beyond this so far.

Interesting stuff.

As far as stiring such planets, perhaps Jupiters system could be a model. 

The spin of Jupiter I believe tries to raise the orbits of Io, Europa, and Ganymede with tidal action, but because those moon cause a flexing of the interiors of each other, the orbits do not rise, but instead the spin is turned into heat which at least in the case of Io drives volcanism.

Some of the other parts of your telling suggest that that if there were to be successors to the present day human population of Earth, they would first migrate into the outer solar system and adapt to icy worlds, and then when the sun became a white dwarf, they would migrate back in.  Perhaps they could even influence the formation of new planets close to the white dwarf.

That's along time from now.  I am guessing it won't be humans as we define ourselfs.

As for migrating to white dwarf systems, well maybe someone will.  However your second part implies that the chemestry of our bodies would not behave in a manner we are evolved/created for.  At least not close to the WD.

I cannot speculate on how that could be managed.

I took the time to find out that comet is an Orrt Cloud comet, so lots of energy as you indicated.  But I don't know the size and cannot quantify how much that energy is relative to a process perhaps desired.

I do know that a very large object with high energy could envelope Mars in a steam bath for 10's of years.  A huge one could cause the present atmosphere to float off, and would leave an iron atmosphere for a time.

I guess you could try the "deeper hole in Hellas" trick, but ideally for that you would cut a object into pieces, and have high precision trailing impacts to the same spot.

A different trick would be to take some of the materials of Phobos and Demos and construct a object to strike first, shreding the comet before it hit.  That could reduce the amount of shattering of the bedrock, and might lessen the amount of atmosphere lost to a splash. 

In my ideal world, Mars would heat up to just above the point where high temperature Earth organisms could survive, and as it cooled you would inject a sequence of lower and lower temperature organisms.  By the time Mars reapproached frigid, perhaps the biosphere could stand on it's own, generating greenhouse gasses, and maybe even allowing for a significant ozone layer.

In another direction, it would be good practice for terraforming Extrasolar cold Earths, an impact allowing a window of habitibility where a crew could habitat that location and promote a biosphere, or at least have a favorable temporary climate until they had dug in and set up to prosper in a glacial type world.

Well, a plan is a plan, which is better than none.

I have to say that opposing the force of the solar wind will be a daunting task.  I don't say that to be a jerk.  I wonder if we could turn the solar winds force against itself?  Pull it's energy and turn it against itself.  I don't have a plan, but I have a desire.

Karov,

I will take the caution.  The sideways impact was just to change the length of days of Mars towards that of Earth.

I still think about the hole though, but yes there would need to be an evaluation of costs/benefits.

Conveniently something else has come up.

http://phys.org/news/2013-02-asteroids- … earth.html

If you can stop asteroids from hitting Earth, it should be possible to make them hit Mars.

There has been much talk about altering existing resources on Mars, and also with some method moving desired materials to Mars, but asteroid hits are like a re-boot arn't they?

With such a system, a very mild "Great Bombardment" might reset Mars to a temporary youth.

Of course I would want a deep hole.

Rods are also a notion to think about.  If you have robots they can make them for you?

What about segmented rods?

A segment of reduced materials such as Magnisium, with some Sodium inclusions, and then a segment of a solid peroxide?

Altenating segments, and then plunge them into the crust, and let them mix and react.

I am not sure how much more energy that would inject, but it would be more.

If the normal number for energy were 1.0, and the chemestry added .1, still 1.1 might do something that 1.0 would not.

Terraformer,

You can have it all, manipulate the planet, and the impacts could generate atmosphic alterations.

I have been wondering (Way out there) if the planet could be given a more Earth similar day in length.  Lots of sideways impacts for that.  I wonder if multiple impacts like that could scoop a large gouge in one or more places.  I am not sure that humans will even maniupate objects on that scale, but after that the atmosphere would have to be altered in chemestry, and volume I would think.

As for the hole, I think a gouge in the bottom of Hellas might end up with a pressure of 33 mb, if the average surface pressure had already been moved to 11 mb.

With further terraforming with an even denser atmosphere such a hole would be the first place where a partial pressure suit could be used, a city could be put in the hole. 

Terraforming even more, eventually that hole would be the first place where you only needed a breathing apparatus.

KAROF

What are you thinking of doing with your "Really deep impact, could be done by elongated / rod shaped projectile"?

(I thought puncture a magma pocket if there are any).

I am sure there are many more capable of answering the Magnetic Field part of your post.

However, I have read that it is thought that the Moon of Earth had a temporary magnetic field when an striking object caused it's crust to spin at a rate different than that of a then liquid core.  An oblique impact might work, but I think we still don't know enough about the interior of Mars.  I have also read that "A" scientist thinks that tectonic action is only now beginning on Mars, that it was slow in comming.  I think that is a minioirty opinion.  In that theory, the rift valley is just the beginning.
Maybe a shattering action could unlock or create plates?

As for assisting terraforming with impacts, I would look into an old thought I read about where the thinkers wanted to impact a chain of asteroid pieces sequentially in the same spot in the Hellas Basin, to produce a small very deep depression, where they thought that a lake from ground ice could form.  They thought that that little spot being warm from the impacts (The rocks retaining the heat), and having a lake in it would be the seed where life planted would automatically terraform the whole planet eventually (100 years?).

I think the hole would be arid.  However perhaps a combination could be considered to improve the situation.

-If possible generate a temporary magnetic field (Temporary being 1000 to millions of years).  Do that with an oblique impact if it is possible to do.

-Make the deep hole in the Hellas Baisin.

*Maybe one or both of these events would cause the atmosphere to be thicker as well on a temporary basis.

-Address Phobos and/or Demos as a terraforming source potential.
     -Toss dirt on selected sections of the polar ice cap in hopes of inflating the atmosphere more, if necessary.
     -Try to scrub the Chlorine out of the Martian atmosphere in hopes of allowing some type of Ozone layer, using dust from
      Martian moons.
     -Fo the deep hole in the Hellas Baisin, try to produce snowfalls, using moon dust to try to seed precipitation.

-If needed also introduce greenhouse gasses.

A consirvative estimate supposes that there is enough C02 in the South polar ice cap to move the average surface pressure to 11 mb.  I am going to guess that if that occurs the best pressure in Hellas might be 20-25 mb.  In the deep hole it would be more.

Anyway that's all I have for it.

I like all of your notions.

I might add a strange one.  I recall that one of the Sci Fi books I read as a kid had a guy visiting a monistary, which I think was a sort of a cycling spaceship.  I think that for philisophy, the Moon would be quite a stimulus.  The near side puts the whole Earth in view at times, as the Apollo missions briefly demonstrated.  The far side would be another thing as well, only the stars in the sky of the universe.

Monks typically do not require large material needs, but are willing to toil for their group.  Not many are called for such a thing, but there are some.

I would think that for them the Moon would be quite a place of contemplation, with the remoteness from worldly matters, and the celestial views, and the truth of the death of the human body just outside of the shelter.

It is true that religion has been at times a prompter for human wandering.

There are so many proposed new things, I am getting somewhat excited.  True, reality will come to all of this over and over again, but I just have to think that eventually someone will hit the jackpot, and from there it will be a dreamers paradise.

Many things will be tried, most will not work out, but eventually something real, something big.

In the book "The Fourth turning" it suggests that the American baby boom generation was all about turning from the material to the spiritual.  Which is not all bad.  They were able to invent quite a few things, and dream of many more.  However the Prophets (Baby Boomers) are followed by the Nomads and the Heros, who are very interested in the material, since they did not have the benifits of the material that the Baby Boomers inherited from the Nomads, Heros, and Artists who preceded them.  So, I am optimistic that the Nomads and Heros comming into maturity will follow such a potential if there is some reasonable hope of a payoff.  Particularly the Heros will endure extreme hardship to see it through.

I know that perhaps I have made references that are obscure to you, but actually I believe that that book has something, since I worked out a fair part of what they say on my own 20 years ago.  Also there are references in that book to people who noticed these patterns many times centuries ago.  (It is mostly a feature of the whole Anglo cultural sphere).

I am quite excited to see how these people are moving into the material reality.  I am fully supportive, but very supprised at their excellent abilities.  Very pleased in fact.