New Mars Forums

RobertDyck said:

I like your variation, and hope that you will continue to persue it.

We are not required to reach a concensus at this time so it is great that each person makes their own variation/s.

I will study yours again, more.

Anchored cables are a interesting notion.  I see that you are concerned for warmpth.  It will depend what is desired, on what design is implemeted.

However we are mutual on the double shell.  I confess, that my notions do not yet converge with real work from NASA, which is a count against them.  In time, I may move towards convergence towards what you have communicated.

But as I have said before, I visualize a toolbox, and at this time the more tools to select from the better.  Later, when a real mission/implementation of habitation occurs, the selected tools used will need to be the ones that fit the situation on the ground the best.  Pride will have no place in that, just ability to survive/prosper.

I absolutely support your variation, and hope you will continue to innovate on it.

My variation, supposes a giant bottle with another bottle inside of it.  Perhaps like a beefed up bottle for carbonated beverages.  I imagine it to have corrugations around the circumference of the curve, and that in the valley's of each corrugation, a tension band can be tightend to add great strength.  A crude illustration is the metal bands around a barrel.

Of course those bands will have to be tightened with some calibrated means, to be optimal.

Now the water jacket has some favorable properties.  Radiation protection, which has been explained as not needed so much for plants, but if a 330 mb or greater pressure is possible, then it might be a place where humans can and will like to be, so radiation protection has value for that purpose.

Heat:

I have seen articles that indicate that for greenhouses on Mars, overheating will be a problem.  If you use mirrors to move the average levels of light up to Earth normal, then it will be even worse.  However if you have a water jacket, that can store cold from night radiation in the water, which will help. 

Further there is the option of evaporative cooling with the generation of distilled water, which could be valuable.  Either evaporation from a suface of duckweed, or if you like boiling water at the boiling point at 1/16 bar, and then of course having radiators to condense the boiled vapors.  This will cool the whole apparatus.

Or there is the option of pumping the heated water out and cooling that in a radiator, perhaps in a dwelling where a reservoir would hold enough heated water to keep dwellings warm through the night.

I am very interested in aquaculture inside of the inner shell as well. 

You are taking a dryer path.

Lets continue.

OK, reply's appreciated.

May I suggest a different "3D" printer.  I observed a paper wasp making a nest a long time ago.  Reguratating the paper, and with pinching mouth parts, it made a wall from paper, adding to it.  I am thinking of a robotic "Extruder" functioning with some characteristics like a 3D printer.

Usually an "Extruder" must have dimensions similar in cross section to the part it is making.  However such a system as described above might be able to make parts that are 3D larger than itself.  I will elaborate some time later.

Later:

I will explain later, the picture is rather small, but I am thinking of spherical, Torus, or linear versions of this cross section.

A double shell.  The outer shell has a small air pocket at the top, but is otherwise filled with water and the inner shell.

The inner shell is filled with air and at the bottom of it soil.

Radiation protection.  Temperature moderation.  A combination of tensile strength and hydrostatic pressure to compress the inner shell to a higher pressure than the interior of the outer shell.  Outer shell 1/16 bar?  Inner shell 330 mb?

I have borrowed the side mirrors and other notions from you guys.

I will explain the other features that could make it stronger later along with what I think it could accomplish.

Later:

I would like to see a reduction in the number of "Joins" in a pressure shell.  In the end there must be some though.

So I am thinking that being able to develop a "Extruder-3D-Robotic" system might be able to do this similar to how a paper wasp makes its nest.

Although I have drawn the two shells as circular, they do not have to be restricted to that.

As for the outer shell, I think that after it was formed, tension bands could be wrapped around it to give it greater strength.
Metal straps, or cables, or tethers.  If people can contemplate space elivators, I am guessing that they could come up with some super strong tension straps that would not block much light.

The outside of the inner shell would be immersed in water, so the selection of such tensioning devices will be limited to a smaller spectrum of possible materials.

I envision several different modes of use:
1) Just using the outer shell and the mirror suggested here by others, you then have a low pressure boiler, and a potential source of steam to condense into distilled water, for industrial and other uses.

2) Aquatic weeds and fastened algae.  I have seen the discussions on how reduced pressures cause increased evaporation from land plants, and I have also read that even if supplied with all the water they might need, they still go into drought mode.  I am thinking that aquatic weeds, and algaes submerged continually in water will not do this.  This scheme could work with just the outer shell, or with the outer shell sterile (No disolved gasses, no nutrients), and using an inner shell to achive higher pressures, and filling the inner shell with water also, and making those waters fertile.

3) Using both shells, it would be possible to have a floating plant like duckweed in the air space of the outer shell.  I don't know it's potential to grow at 1/16 bars, but of course I just picked that pressure out of the air.  Perhaps the outer shell if propperly re-enforced could have higher pressures.  The duck weed should be able to be havested by a suction device.
If the light for the inner shell comes in from the sides from mirrors, then the duckweed would not be a shading problem for the plants in the inner shell which could be aquatic or dry land.  Of course if there is growing duckweed, there will be problems with microorganisms attaching to all inner surfaces of the outer shell and blocking light.  This could be addressed with snails to a degree, or some fish that might be able to survive those conditions that likes to feed on algae on solid surfaces.  Or a mechanical robot might serve as a cleaner.

It is to be noted that the inner shell is not only pressurized by tensile strength of the two shells, but by the hydrostatic pressure of the water in the outer shell bearing down on it.

As for using rigolith to bear down on parts of the dome, that is not out of the question either. 

I do not see what I have presented as a set of ideas as in any way nullifying the value of the other schemes previously presented by others, I simply want to add a additional set of options.  Mars may not be a one size fits all solution.  Perhaps any of the listed notions can be used for a best purpose at certain times or places depending on the state of developement and also the further advancements of technology, which is not allways predictable.

If it can be done effectively the various greenhouses including the Mushroom and the long ones would be attractive.

I found this:

http://environmentalresearchweb.org/cws … news/52857

Mars having a dominantly CO2 atmosphere, it attracts me.  However, you are still stuck with generating Hydrogen from water.

But would acrylics be useful for building such greenhouses?  I am thinking 3D printer for the build, and also maybe for patching leaks.

Someone took me to task who understood the chemestry of plastics, and said that I/we do not have a source for such, but the above suggests that it may be a method to obtain what is needed to build structures.

Perhaps in time a robotic system with 3D printers might partially build such structures on a massive scale in suitable locations on Mars.

Then reflectors and perhaps rigolith as balast to help add counterforce.

Although I tilt towards wanting some type of hardy weed to grow at a partial pressure quite low, I can see that if accomplished, and if structurally reliable, it would be great to have greenhouses that could grow normal crops, and allow shirtsleeve human presence.

Agreed, a planet capable of suporting a civilization for 100,000 years offers far more than what the human race has been supposed to have used so far as a technological creature or collection of creatures.

And if you can reboot that with smaller solar system objects, then yes, a magnetic field is a luxury.

A pleasing converstation sir.

If I understand, the walls are the transparency.  The roof is not transparent but weighted.  I like it.  Place reflective foil on the ground around that then to get more light in.

I have an inni for your outi.  A ring shaped berm.  Inside that then place a vertical wall to hold the berm.  A central space within.  A glass wall, concave inside the concave wall holding the berm.  Reflective foil on the floor of the hollow space inside the berm.

While the pressure pushes outward against the berm retaining wall, the transparent inner wall is also pushed inward towards the center.  But you may also place struts or cables between the walls, where tension of the struts fastens the outer retaining wall to the inner "Glass" or "Plastic" wall.  A ring of beneficiated environment between the two walls.  A ceiling of manufactured materials, weighted down by rigolith.

I see your mind and I like it.  I offer my toys just as you also offer yours to me.

I am glad to get a helpful caution from your studies.  I consider your understanding to be better than mine for this case for sure.  (Although it is now mine also).

For myself however, I would like to keep it as an open possibility, with the understanding that such difaculties would have to be answered to in an actually functional way.  (Which may in the end make it not workable).

I will counter argue even so, for the hope of further discovery.

I will see your point the filter feeders which use a lot of water to get a small amount of ditritus and small organisms must be open to infections to a high degree.  So, actually, I am going to bow on that one and suggest that barring a scheme not presently apparent, that is the least feasable.

I will make a special case for the the ones that use chemosynthisis however, in symbiosis with embedded bacteria.

I can see a case where a primary pool is a more fresh water, with or without transparent structures above to allow in sunlight.
It would actually be easier to have this pool dark, and a covering of non-transparent materials.

I then see the idea of having salt water tanks inside of this "Lake", down perhaps 33 or more feet.  Henry,s law:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry's_law

The point being that the main pool, the fresher pool could be at about 0 degC or 32 degF with a vapor pressure of perhaps 6 mb.

An enclosure could be assisted by a layer of ice, where the top of the ice could be quite a bit lower than freezing, down to the average ambient of the local climate, which is presently quite cold.  Therefore the evaporation pressure from the top layer of ice would be much below the ambient pressure.  It would still be possible for a wind of dry air in the daytime to evaporate this ice, so a protective material should also be deployed above the ice.

If this enclosure were accomplished, the movement of robot actuators and even well protected humans is not out of the question. 

So having put salt water tanks into this "Lake", it would also be possible to disolve Methane, Oxygen, and Nitrogen into the salt water of the tanks at a pressure of perhaps 330 mb or more.  This might support organisms that can use this for an energy source.

The main point is that each salt water tank could be isolated (In this case), and the physical barriers, and the barrier of fresh water might controll epidemics of parasites of the shellfish, making it possible to make a profit.  If desired, the fresh water could be very defficient in Oxygen, further inhibiting the kind of parasites that might infect shellfish from propagating to each of the salt water tanks.

It would fit into the needs to make fuels and Oxydizers.  One method of rockets, vehicles, and for some types of food.

I have not certainty that the particular shellfish can be cultivated this way or if they are edible.

Therefore I consider it an open item requiring further research, and proving.

I am not wild about animal cultivation, but I am also not a vegitarian, so for survival it might be an asset I would further consider, along with the cultivation of mushrooms and other forms that can run on chemical/organic sources.

I also make the alternate point that the Iguana's could be considered:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galapagos_land_iguana

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_iguana

Some will be horrified by such a use of a proteced species, but I don't consider it any more wrong that chickens, just as long as you do not damage the wild populations.  In fact it would be a further protection of the species.

The fact that the Marine variety can dive into cooler water and eat algea is convenient.

However any such enclosure would have to provide sufficient pressure, Oxygen, warmpth.  The water can be cool, but they might need "Dog Houses" with sunlamps some of the time.

Lewis said:

A collection of diverse players would be good.  Not a single organiztion, but contributors in coordination I think.

A single organization is subject to types who then harness the force for their own ego agenda and careers.

On another subject.  Grasshopper is a prototype for a hoped for re-usable booster system.

I am wondering if such were sized for use on Mars, if that size might approximate what would also work on Earth, provided a air breathing booster system were added to it.

Previously some time ago that there was an effort to create a electo-magnetic linear engine to boost rockets to 1000 MPH.

Of course the liability is that the acceleration is too fast for humans, and also the booster size would be limited.

However, I am wondering why a jet pack in the form of a circular surround for a booster like grasshopper could not assist it up the first 10,000 to 30,000 feet?

I am thinking the "Jet Pack" might have 6 jet engines for verticle lift off, and that the Jet pack would be composed of 2 semicircles that are joined around the grasshopper, with 3 engines in each.  Once the "Jet Pack" was done with it's task, it would do a horrizontal landing.

This way the total "Boost" to orbit of a payload would be partially air breathing, and so strongly reducing the percentage of the whole launch package that would be Oxydizer.

Does this make sense?

Another thought was that if the Grasshopper had an engine problem while assending through the trophosphere, it's engines could be shut down, and perhaps the jet pack would be powerfull enough to allow a non-crashing abort to ground.

If animal food is also considered, I would go ahead and work with cold blooded water animals. 

If salt water, then from the polar areas, though generally slow growing, requiring water quite cold.

But not restricted to cold water, if you add more heat and deal with greater pressures for the enclosure.

Cold blooded animals require less food for their biological budget, I think quite a lot less, and so also likely would consume less Oxygen.

Shellfish, and fish I suppose.

Another point being that it is possible to power something like that not only from sunlight, but from chemicals, simulating a cold Methane seep. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_seep

I don't know how edible those are, but it is worth investigation I would think.

The calcium carbonate might be an objective in it's self.

The Microbes that feed the filter feeders could run variously from such sources.  When the sunlight was more seasonalbly available, then tilt the exosystem to that, and otherwise tilt it to being chemical driven.

The tanks where the animals were kept could be relatively pressurized, and if desired less pressurized tanks could foster the microbial population.

This could be convieniently done by having a tank inside of a tank.  More or less a enclosed pond with cold water where the algae, and microbes that feed on chemicals would be multiplied.  At temperatures +/- 5 degrees.  Therefore, a vapor pressure not much more than Martian ambient.  Therefore the dome holding the pressure and vapor pressure could be substantially minimal.

As for the animal tank, put that down about 33 feet in the water, (That is about 330 mb pressure) saturate it's water with disolved gasses of O2 and N2, warm it to foster animal growth.

If other organisms that do not have bacterial in them that harvest energy from Methane:

There would be two mehods to get the microbes from the cold water to the animal tank.  Either they would have to be filtered out in a fine filter, and back flushed into the warm tank, or if you had solar concentrating mirrors the water could be pumped from the bigger cold tank during the day, warmed, and then pumped into the animal tank.

As for harvesting the animals, I guess if it is shellfish, a robot could do that.  If it is fish, perhaps a duct would allow them to circulate to a holding tank where humans could be present.

I would think this would occur at higher lattitudes where there is lots of ice, but maybe if an aquafer were available at lower lattitudes, then that way.

Another alternative is reptiles.  They also being cold blooded.  Vegitarian Iguana's?

I am very much in favor of many seedlings, and see what can take root best.

At some point a leadership will have to develop, and a first plan, second expansion, and so on.  Perhaps there will be reliable and cost effective ways eventually to cover a significant portion of areas of Mars with domes that seldom leak for habitation by humans.

If I had my preferences, I would turn the north polar depression into one big shallow sea with domes over it.  However that is at a scale where indeed it might be easier to add to the atmosphere and melt it that way.

For humble starts though, it could be true that something that would simply grow in ice with dirt sprinkled on it with a little added light, might release methane, which might assist as Terraformer would paraterraforming Mars up to 11 Mb.  In the end though it must be about economics.  How to get the most for the least effort in this case is valid I think.  I cannot predict which methods will play out the best 20-50 years from now with changing technologies, and not understanding how the pattern of approach to Mars will unfold.

So, nuture all the ideas, and plant the ones that have a reasonable chance, and favor the ones that take hold like a bad weed.

Yes in general I think I get what you are saying.

Augmentation of powers with values less than prefered.

I make this point.  At one time lions would rid the human race of stupid people dumb enough to want to invite such an attack.

As horrible as that was, it was in a way like a guiding hand.  We could not be the lions because they occupied that space.  And so we were generalists sometimes predator, herbavore, and food.  This was like a container which defined our physical, intellectual, and psycological shape.

Now we risk becomming cancer.  Without defined form.  Later having a new definition of form perhaps defined by predation between human/cyborg groups (Killing, enslaving, etc.).

All this leaves us now is self control if possible.  At least defining some of the potential pitfalls might help.

But maybe in the end it is not ours to decide.  Just throw the computer chips in the air and let the best cyborg win?

Grey Parrot assimilation perhaps.  Resistance is futile. 

I want to suggest an alternative with the orbital mirrors, where a relatively modest influence of added energy coupled with the injection of a relatively small amount of dust would provide a habitat for cyanobacteria in pockets of water in the polar ice.

This might be supported by:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2 … -mars.html

http://www.accessexcellence.org/WN/SUA1 … old698.php

http://skywalker.cochise.edu/wellerr/st … r/Mars.htm

http://spacescience.spaceref.com/current/event/osu.html

It is not out of the question to augment the existing solar flux during the polar warm seasons, but then UV is an issue.  The articles suggest that the organisms can protect themselves from UV at least on Earth.  However in the polar night, there could be very little UV.  The mirrors would need to be selectively reflective, not reflecting UV.  That along with the injection of dust could form a layer of dirt maybe 6 feet below the ice layer, and a reasonable addition of light by mirror reflectance could then make this habitat support a microbial community that might release greenhouse gasses suitable to an additional warming, and maybe even helping the formation of Ozone.  Maybe this has been covered elsewhere to a degree.  I would simply consider it another tool in the tool kit.

As for existing Martian life, I might suggest using a laser to melt small pockets of polar ice, and then sending down a probe to sample the water produced after a reasonal time period.  I am going to guess that the Martian habitat has on it's own produced temporary pockets of water inside the ice during relatively recent times, and that if there were life compairable with Earth life swapped back and fourth, there should be the possibility that something lurks in the ice caps, waiting for the occasional melt of a pocket of water.  I don't expect that this would be the first check for life, but perhaps the last before terraformation is implemented.

In fact perhaps a mission could instead consist of a probe with a laser which would drop to a pocket of long lasting ice, and shine the laser downwards, it might be that the spectrum of light reflected upwards would reveal the growth of organisms.  I would suppose that a tiny water pocket formed would first have one spectrum, and changes in organics would then alter that spectrum.  Perhaps after a change was noticed, the laser would be able to change it's spectrum to one that would evaporate the ice, and an air stream conducted to the evaporation would carry it vapors away, in effect drilling down to the site where organic changes were susspected.  Then it would be a simple matter to grab some of the goop for further inspection.

http://www.exploremars.org/msl-picture- … rs-phoenix

I know that I am in the terraforming section, but obviously there will be a lot of resistance to the terraformation of Mars until at least some such testing is done.

Alternately the laser probe thing would be useful to confirm that an added solar flux would produce the microbial growth that is desired.  Of course such an experiment could be simulated on Earth first.

I wonder about creating a receiving robot to help in the landing.

http://www.space.com/20254-spacex-reusa … -test.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grasshopper_(rocket)

I hope that they will fully develop the version that they are planning with the collapsible landing gear.  I want to see it work and how it works.

However I speculate on a crane machine on four or more wheels as a robot with grasping hands having air cushioned bag grips, and for that matter even during the grasp, squirting an air cushion from the fingers to help create a non damaging catch.

Then dispensing with collapsable legs on the rocket, and instead the crane robot also putting a shock absorbing cushioning device benieth the descending rocket prior to contact.  There would need to be legs or leg, but that could be less complex perhaps.  Another option is that the rocket would not have legs, but that pins with pads would push up from the receiving pad, as part of the robots receiving process.  Maybe a padded ring pushing upward on pneumatic or hydraulic legs as the hands grasp the upper rocket body.  Or maybe the "Pad" would be a partial ring, a "U" shaped pad to land on that would escape much of the rocket exhaust by being deployed sideways below the rocket body but above the rocket nozzle.

The rocket able to hover like a helicoptor according to the information given, but also the crane being able to move at significant speed laterally on the pad surface, and yet if a well made robot, being able to approach and co-operate with the rocket to secure it.  This would also be useful to compensate for some degree of unexpected wind conditions.  Further having the rocket secured to a wheeled vehicle, if it is desired to roll it into a shelter for inspection and service, or to protect it from comming weather conditions that also would be an option.

Having collapsable landing gear is cool, but also complicated, and I susspect a burden of complexity to add to the rocket.  The objective being to recover a re-usable rocket, I think a receiving robot is worth consideration.  I note that even the tires of such a device would help to serve as part of the verticle shock absorbing process.  (Even though during the rocket hover it should be at almost zero verticle speed.

Granted that the robot will also cost money, but anthing to reduce the complexity of the actual air borne device may be worth it.

I guess there could be a double cost if a accedent damaged or destroyed both the rocket and the robot, but I believe that the descending rocket is very low on fuel at that point.  Perhaps an explosion could be survived by the robot without total damage to it.

Think Eagle snatching a fish from a lake.  It should be easier than that.

I wonder also if it was necessary to have alternate emergency landing sites if a stationary rack could be tried where the booster would dock itself, (Or try to).  Say a rack with a gutter slightly tilted, (Well padded) with some kind of catch at the bottom that it would try to latch itself onto.  In that case then it would have to be later retrieved by heavy equipment.