New Mars Forums

Well actually yes. 
It appears to me that Venus is balanced by the Sulfur compounds.  A dust effect could push it off of that balance, and then some other actions could perhaps cause it to take another path to a different type of stable environment.

Dust from Asteroids?  Or could you use mirrors to create a swirling wind storm that reaches to the surface and sucks up dust?
Or bombs?

Here is another trick.  Could you mass produce floating bubbles with solar collection?  Could those bubbles also have a means to alter the atmospheric chemistry? 

My take on the whole Hydrogen thing is you extract it from the Sulfuric Acid and collect it into floating greenhouses, until there is no significant amount of it.  It must likely be a type of greenhouse gas itself, just as water is.  This will unblock certain wavelengths to radiate out into space.  Injection of additional Hydrogen would only heat the place up more.

I believe I saw speculation that when the oceans of Venus are presumed to have boiled off the surface temperature would have risen to thousands of degrees.  That may have occurred, and would have continued until the bulk of the Hydrogen was lost to space.

While you could inject constructed small objects into the atmosphere from orbit, it might also make sense to inject dust, to block the sun as well, and to directly absorb the Sulfuric Acid into a compound which would settle to the surface.  If the surface temperatures drop in the high mountains, it might be deposited there and stabilize.  However then you may loose much of the Hydrogen to the surface.

Another effect of dust might be to alter the PH.  It seems reasonable that if you are injecting metals, and that the acid reacts to them, and that collects in the high mountains, then the atmosphere becomes less acid.

In such conditions, I would ponder not a free floating habitat, but platforms on hollow supports, where the hollow supports have floatation properties, but are anchored to the surface.  If the upper side of the platforms were cold enough, it is possible to speculate on condensing CO2, as solid or liquid.  Also maybe Nitrogen.  The purpose?  Manufacture it there, drop it by some means to the surface, and you then have a coolant at the surface, and one that can boil and expand, and power robots.  Some of them being capable of helicopter actions, or airplane, or steam rocket. (Steams of various things).

Another scheme might involve the possible Lead Sulfide on the high mountains.  It may be near its evaporation point, so an alternative would be to heat it up into a gas, and pump it up to where a receiver for orbital beamed solar power could separate out the lead, and drop that to the surface.  If the environment of Venus were still a bit acid, then a high temperature lead-acid battery process could power robots.

If you have robots on the surface, then you can access a very large range of materials to construct more robots and floating towers with.

I do say that if it turns out that two companies on Earth can collect small asteroids, then it seems reasonable to me that it could be done near Venus as well, and while much of the materials might be used in orbit, there should be an excess of tailings that could be dumped into the atmosphere of Venus, as dust or floating machines that block the sun.

As for getting rid of the whole atmosphere?

That would have to be a plan for much later.  It may be that by the time the above were implemented for Venus (If it were), the inhabitants would be quite happy with a Venus altered to that degree, with habitats on high platforms.

Taken even further, if all the surface were covered by such habitats, perhaps they could shade the ground so much that a CO2 Ocean would condense.  They would still need platforms in the sky, I think because the Greenhouse effect from the Nitrogen would be too much without them.  But perhaps eventually at that point they could import Hydrogen in Mass, and gradually convert the liquid CO2 to H20 and biomass, and deposit the biomass at the bottom of oceans.

Terraformer said:

Why not do both?  No laws against it.

Let me attempt to in a better way communicate what I intended with the Magnetic field.

It is about frame of reference.  I would not want the lower layers ionized.  I would want it to rotate with the surface.

The magnetic field is intended to counter rotate the highest ionized layer, so that relative to the solar wind it would not rotate, but relative to the surface of Ceres it would rotate in opposition to the surface, causing approximately and on a average a zero speed.  This if possible would remove the centrifuge effect which you fear would contribute to atmospheric loss.

And since a magnetic field is in use, then why not use it to oppose the solar wind?

Ceres if it is to have an atmosphere would need every trick.

I have little to offer for the effect of solar heat overheating molecules to escape velocity however. 

I might offer, that I am trying to figure out if somehow with the shape of the field, you could have one magnetic field always behind Ceres, and hope to catch some otherwise lost molecules and funnel them back down to the atmosphere through magnetic lines of force.

But if that worked, you are left trying to figure out how you spin the upper atmosphere in the solar plain.

An alternating field might funnel some particles down from the dark side, using two different polarities, north and south in alternating fashion.  Perhaps a rotating spin followed by a South on the dark side, then another spin, and then a north on the dark side? 

It might also be hoped that if the molecules can be directed to the dark side, and then funneled down the magnetic pole, they might cool to a degree?  But I believe that plasma holds heat by electrons spinning around a magnetic line of force, and I don't know if exposure to cold alone will cool them.  However if they contact cooler atmosphere, then I believe that plasma will
then quench into it.

It is also worth speculating that such an alternating field would also warm a salt water body of ice, might cause very cold brine to develop and eventually an ice covered ocean.  Eventually warming even the rocky core, but this would take time.

We have had these conversations before.  I want habitats in hollows in the ice above the ocean, and chemosynthesis and artificial induced photosynthesis in the ocean, with mining of the core,  you want orbital habitats, but why can't I/You/We have all of it?

Ideally a magnetic field would be induced by the solar wind which would require orbital machines to capture it's energy and convert it to a world field.  I don't have a master plan for that but I have intentions to think about it.

The colder than Mars temperatures are a plus for an ice covered ocean.  Some mechanical assistance such as domes, and other protective coverings required.  As for the thickness of the ice layer, I would want it generally thick enough to place hollowed out habitats into, as a trial balloon 1 mile or 1 Kilometer thick?  However where domes are on the surface no problem with having pressurized ponds, lakes and swimming pools.

StarDreamer and Terraformer,

Get a solution for the acid environment first, and I am on board.

Terraformer said:

I see that some dispute the quantity of ice available, and I want to suggest that you might think about hybrid propulsion systems for the Moon instead, and simply use any water available for smaller navigational thrusters (Hydrogen from water), and for human use on the surface.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_rocket

Actually I was chasing a wild idea about liquid lithium as a fuel, but think now that it is a small possibility, to heat it up to a hot temperature, and burn it with liquid oxygen.  However, if it occurs on the Moon, it will likely be in special deposited ores, and in many cases buried deep.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium

Melting point 453.69 K, 180.54 °C, 356.97 °F
Boiling point 1615 K, 1342 °C, 2448 °F

I included Titanium, because if you heat lithium to 1000 degrees C, you need a tank for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium

Melting point 1941 K, 1668 °C, 3034 °F
Boiling point 3560 K, 3287 °C, 5949 °F

Still, a hybrid using other fuels heated up to a high temperature prior to launch (But not likely liquid metal), might suit the needs.

During my search I found these references and arguments as to what might be had as raw materials on the Moon, Asteroids, and Mars.  I don't think you will object.  Some arguments are that they are not all the same, so there is reason to work in all three areas to create an interplanetary economy.
http://www.nss.org/settlement/L5news/1983-valuemoon.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ore_resources_on_Mars

I wanted also to make a note that some time ago I saw reference to a process where ice can be impacted on to the Moon, and a while some will vaporize, a great deal of it will survive as ice (It would be done in the lunar night time).

If there is water to be had from asteroids, this would be an option.  Further, if a fusion rocket using lithium rings, or a fission rocket were possible, I wonder if the Asteroid Ceres might become a possible source of large scale importation of ice in this fashion, if it proves not to be possible to fill needs from capturing and mining small asteroids?

Not trying to interfere, but I see you are a bit of a Lunar bug.

I hear you.

However I always like to keep the door to the future open a crack.

I am not surprised at your post, since your scope seems to be "Get a mission to Mars", which is not wrong at all.

I like to look at the short (Which is actually a very big thing) to get such a first mission to Mars, and the Medium and the long.

I also like to try to conciliate the tribes, the Marsies, the Lunies, the Asteroidies.  Why not see if everyone can be on the same team in some way?  In the long run, odds are it will be for the better.

Some of these groups are going to do what they do anyway.  Go for Asteroids, the Moon, Mars Flyby, and National entities will try for Mars.  An attempt at a master plan might be able to integrate at least part of these into some type of mutual support which could be useful.

Just now I am pondering if there is any way to integrate the Mars flyby idea with some type of Phobos sample return.  In this case, I think I likely will come up empty, but it is worth pondering just a bit more.

I choose to be optimistic, but I also will watch out for snake oil salespersons.

http://cosmiclog.nbcnews.com/_news/2013 … -cash?lite

http://www.policymic.com/articles/31155 … -space-ore

http://www.planetaryresources.com/careers/

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2013/ … id-mining/

http://www.space.com/19462-asteroid-min … birth.html

http://www.space.com/19380-asteroid-min … ition.html

http://news.discovery.com/space/asteroi … 130204.htm

Solar propulsion for such:
http://phys.org/news/2013-04-nanowires- … nergy.html

The asteroid mining companies do not intend to utilize solar panels of the future, which might use 10,000 less mass?

However they say that they intend to make money by selling propellants and making high quality parts from Nickel.

I guess I will be hopeful and also keep an eye on those proposed low mass solar panels.

Nanocellulose

http://phys.org/news/2013-04-algae-mate … fuels.html

This sounds like something to look into.

An algae that excretes Nanocellulose.  Not that I am too familiar whith it, but it sounds like they think many products that would be useful on Mars could be made.  I have to suppose that it might be possible to make bullet proof T.P.?

Anyway I would think that if it would grow in low temperature fresh water, then simple bags of water would be able to host it.  Place a clear tarp with the UV protection you mentioned over that, and that should do it.

Otherwise, engineer the thing further so that it could grow in cold brine (Below freezing temperatures), and that would not have a significant vapor pressure, and still of course you would have to keep the Martian air from sucking the vapors off, and you would still want to sheild it from UV, so a evaporation resistant transparancy "Dome" over the brine pools.  Little or no pressurization required.

It may be that the bottom of a shallow brine pool could be above freezing during the day while sunlight warms it, while the major body of water was well below freezing.

I thought I could continue a bit more with the presumptions I have about the movement of water in such worlds, how it might be possible for liquid water in significant quantities to occur in such worlds in the warm places.

One is catastrophic floods, where volcanic activity would melt glaciers, and ice dams would burst.  For worlds around red dwarfs, tidal heating due to relative proximity of orbiting worlds could keep this running long after radioactive decay has died down.  Of course a catastrophic flood is not an ideal stable habitat.  However a sea or ocean which recieves the floods may be more stable, but it's shoreline may fluctuate quite a bit.  Some people think that tides were important to the developement of life.  Worlds around red dwarfs might have tides not from moons but neighbor planets, and their may even be a rythm to the catastrophic floods, where peridic flexing might provide the stimulus for somewhat regular outbursts.   Think Io but bigger and with Europa's ice on it, and with a central red star instead of Jupiter.

It is presumed by me that such a solar system as that  would tend to accumulate ice on the side away from the central star (No mystery there), and that without watering a dry desert to bedrock would accumulate on the side towards the star.

Io may be too volcanic, but it is a reasonable example to illustrate what I am thinking.

So, catastropic (But somewhat regular) floods feeding seas, or even oceans.

But there is another way to water the deserts without rain.

There is evidence for this process on Earth although it is not developed to it's maximum potential benefit to life.

Antarctica has a high plateau, where a reservoir of cold air accumulates and the discharges, so it is an oscillation.

This may also occur to a degree in asia (And other places), but it is my understanding that heavy winds can actually blow snow from Siberia into the deserts to the south.

In Antarctica, the snow is dominantly blown into the ocean.  It is dry, and behaves like dust or sand.  However unlike dust and sand it can evaporate or even melt.

On the red dwarf worlds in some cases, I expect that these periodic wind storms (200 mph is possible in the dry valleys?), would blow snow off of the dark side and onto the deserts of the lighted side.  Dunes of snow.  Since this process will be periodic, then the weather on the lighted side could involve storms where the temperatures fall below freezing for at least part of the lighted side, and then the storm stops, and the lighted side warms up and might melt the snow.  From this rivers and streams could occur, and of course depending on how much water soaked into the soil at a particular location, a watering of the ground.

One concern is if the water were to all get locked up on the dark side this process would stop.  It would depend on the glacial process and the catastrophic floods to recycle it back to the lighted side, where it could evaporate, be carried to the dark side, and fall as very dry snow which would again be capable of being blown to the day side.

Obviously, the dark side may not be cold enough to condense Nitrogen, Argon, Oxygen? and other gasses, or indeed the atmosphere would collapse.  Perhaps periodically.

As for CO2, the disposal of it on Earth is primarily by erosion of rock by water and deposition into aluvial fans?

On the worlds I am proposing, this could also occur, but it would also lock up into the glaciers, so the glaciers would be significantly composed of CO2.  Glaciation and perhaps a wind blown process would recycle some of it to atmosphere.

The more that got permanently locked up, then the colder the day side, and the less the water flows.  If volcanism is active, then that would push CO2 into the environment.  It would freeze on the dark side and be released by catastrophic floods where carbonated water would issue out from the glacier bottoms, and by the glaciers pushing a mix of water ice and CO2 ice into the sunlight, and by wind blowing process.

I have read recently that the spectrum of light from a red dwarf is absorbed into ice much better than that of our sun, and so would be more energenic at evaporating and melting ice in a red dwarf system.

I don't dissagree, but can some parts be reused, even if they have a refirbished life exptancy of 5 years, they might fit into some type of a space mission.  I would not like to totally dismiss the notion of reusing orbital hardware.

For instance I believe that there are plans to obtain and reuse antenna from old sattelites.

I would think that some justification might occure (Not in the case of the space station), by removal of space junk that is going to disintigrate through collisions and make a greater space junk hazzard.  While minining asteroids may be on the surface more proffitable, capturing and recycling mass in orbit might have an economic benefit where it releives the amount of space collision hazards.

Most plans intend to burn that stuff in the atmosphere, but in some cases would value be obtained by harvesting parts from it?

The value of the part, and the value of clearing the orbits that we depend upon for certain operations such as communications for our Earth infrastructure?

I understand that in the case of the ISS, the constrictions on cost caused it to be constructed in a very narrow fashion, specialized for a single purpose, but can the pressure shells be stripped of life support, but junctioned with a new module, and used for some type of semi-automated manufacturing facility, where humans only occasionally and with personal life support equipment enter?  Would that hold any value?

I have been watching this thread.

I think the idea of recycling hardware could be a good one.

I am going to offer this.   Suppose you put a habitation on Phobos (Or demos).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_(mo … cteristics

I am not sure carbon is available on that moon, but I hope it is.

I would like to suggest that a station be established for mining.  I also suggest a tethered rotating station in orbit of Mars to provide 1/3 gee, to find out what the effects of Martian gravity are on humans.

So personal could rotate between these two stations to try to maintain a tollerable degree of health.

As for the Phobos or Demos station, I suggest a facility that could manufacture very small devices to be launched to Mars using a linear accelerator (Magnetically).

They might be hollow and have a lifting air body configuration.

They might be filled with a pressurized liquid, solid, or slush of CO2.  They would need some type of navigational device including sensors, and data processing capabilities.

They might require heat sheilding beyond the latent cold that they would contain (CO2 Liquid or solid or slush) in their interior.

They would require course correction abilities, presumably using lifting body methods.

The motive force for course corrections would be venting the expanding gasses of CO2.  I presume that to some degree they would warm the liquid, solids or slush within during the entry to atmosphere of Mars.

It is presumed that some type of GPS would aid their navigation.

A small body size means more surface area to mass.  This could be played to an advantage.  On Earth Spiders can fall from great heights, but use the viscosity of air to break their fall and escape serious injury.

I do not intend that these vehicle will land intact however.

I am hoping that they could provide scrap metals and perhaps silicon to a location advantagious to habitation.

So I suggest that they would re-enter, heat up, use the expanding gasses within as motive force to actuate navigational devices, and that they would then do a lifting body flair, and perhaps even impact a cliff with nose extreemly up, and then fall to the ground below the cliff, prividing scrap metals for human settlers.

The advantage of this is that a site could be chosen on the basis of needs not directly connected to needing metal mines, but other requirements.

So the mining would occur at first on Phobos or Demos.

Upon impact, the small bottle like devices would behave to a degree like air bags, but rupture, and that venting of CO2 volitiles would dissapate some of the heat of impact.

I do not discount the potential of associated exploritory landings by humans prior to this manipulation, but associate it with a compresensive plan to settle Mars.

A real challenge for human habitation, but who can say never?

If not then maybe a robotic system that beams power to the moons of such a world.

If not floating in the atmosphere, then maybe tethers dangled "Space Elivator" like, to dip windmills into the winds?  Not easy either.

Even more a challenge, but could the "Slushy" ices of silicates and water, methane, etc, somehow be accessed?  I know that heat, very very high heat is an issue, but maybe at those pressures, machines of a new type of new unknown materials, to compose robots/machines for the purpose?

Lots of materials.  I know that some would say that a space elivator is a challenge, a nasty of even for Earth, but the graviation for Saturns and Neptunes are not that far from our 1 gee.  Maybe a mini-Neptune would have even less gravitation?