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#9051 Re: Life support systems » Hab at the bottom of a Martian lake » 2014-02-14 09:04:50
VAPOR PIPELINES
Evolving from the above post.
Made of ice covered with soil perhaps.
1) Dig a trench.
2) Fill it with snow or ice cubes and pack it.
3) Cover that with soil.
This should create a linear ice mass.
The for each segment of the ice pipe put a laser to drill and maintain a tube
connecting to the consecutive segments.
Maintain a pressure inside equal to the ambient +/- some value.
Evaporate ice at the feeder end of the pipeline say a glacier in the Hellas depression.
Convey the vapor to the other end.
compress it into a liquid at the termination end, say in the southern Hellas depression, where
there may be a mineral deposite to mine, or a productive settlement of people.
Overheating and overpressurizing the pipeline could lead to rupture, so that must be avoided.
Keeping it too cold could lead to ice buildup in the conduction tube, but the laser would impinge
and that buildup and vaporize/melt it.
It would not be wrong to include turbines to help regulate pressurization at points, so that
you do not have to pressurize the feeder end too much in order to cause flow.
Hellas seems a good place to try this, but eventually, if it is workable, I would think that polar ice could be conveyed to the Equator by this method.
It is true that the throughput is impaired by the low density of the vapors, but dealing with ice the pipeline width could be significant in size,
bigger than a tall man, and perhaps bigger than that.
This would be a seasonal process. Lots of sunlight for power in the summer, but not the winter. Northern Hellas and the poles are very cold and lacking of solar energy in the winter anyway, currently with CO2 precipitation. A place to avoid in the winter I think.
#9052 Re: Life support systems » Hab at the bottom of a Martian lake » 2014-02-14 06:50:57
One possible way to make a river run on Mars might be with a laser pointed horizontally at a polar ice cap or other significant deposite of ice.
Above ground it might be possible, to tunnel horrizontally and to have a ice covered river in the summer. The purpose would be to fill a basin. Even I am not all that sure how well this would work. However if terraforming raised the atmospheric pressure a bit, to perhaps double what it is now, perhaps it would work. I believe that I read that if the CO2 in the polar ice cap were evaporated, an atmosphere of 11 mb would result, and water would be stable enough for temporary streams from snow melt. That should allow ice covered rivers to run.
To keep the river running after the initial melt, flow down an elivation can help, it stirs the water and warms it somewhat, but other methods might be required at points to prevent ice dams.
Underground, it seems more likely, to be able to "Drill" a horizontal tunnel, if the ice were relatively pure. Running water? Maybe, there would be a lot of variables, but a ice "Tube" would definanately convey vapor from the point of evaporation/melting to the exit where the laser was.
This would be suitable to large glaciers, and the layered terrain around the ice caps, and might be suitable to the ice caps as well.
For science as a side effect, it might be possible to create these horrizontal drillings, and to either send in robots to examine what has been exposed, or even humans, if there were a reason, and if it were safe. Some ice caves on Earth are safe enough to enter.
As enclosures, it is not out of the question that some economic use could be found. Perhaps to store something, or maybe even automated factories at low temperatures.
Anyway it is my view that working with ice to create a hydrosphere on Mars, hydrology will be very important to making Mars pay, since simply expecting to sustain a greenhouse gas generator for 1 or more centuries before getting a payoff in my opinion may be too much of an economic burden on whoever is trying to do it. Manipulations of water could generate large profits, and anyone who wants to have comforts such as air, water, food, and shelter should want profits.
#9053 Re: Life support systems » Hab at the bottom of a Martian lake » 2014-02-13 06:59:12
One thing I have mentioned some time ago, is that for a lake of sufficient size, you could build stone structures on it's rocky bottoms.
Using Roman, and other methods for stone working, such as those which existed in the Andes Mountains, it should be possible to build enclosures, domes.
The differential pressures will be 1/3 that of Earth. At a debth of 132 feet for a lake bottom, and a dome with a height of 32 feet, the differential pressure from top to bottom of experienced water column would be 32 feet, or 1/3 bar, not 1 bar, so Mars is more suitable.
Mars has many stones laying around, so that resource is there. The methods of the Andes, would allow close fitting stones, perhaps without a mortar. Inside of that dome
should then be placed a balloon, to make sure the air stays in. Of course the dome itself, even the roof, has to be heavy enough that floatation will not blow it apart.
This would work for cold water lakes, but would be even more useful, if you had a lake stratified by the weight of disolved salts. In that case, the layer at the bottom could be kept at a comfortable shirt sleeve temperature, with colder less salty layers above that, Ice above that, and then a protective covering such as soil and solar collectors above that.
Where this could really be good, is if you had a lake of significant size, so that an entire city could be built, covering many square Kilometers/Miles.
I suggest a subtracting 3D printer type machine, instead of adding to the stone, removing, to shape it. Robotic, and maybe with a pounding hammer to subtract materials, to shape the stones.
Automated.
A boyancy device like a submarine as your crane to move the stones and place them.
And the option of fiber optic lighting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_solar_lighting
http://www.limitless.uk.com/parans-solar-collector/
https://www.google.com/search?q=Fiber+o … 80&bih=817
So if you input extra energy, the waters warm up, and perhaps you want to generate electricity by venting heat to the surface.
This form of stored energy would be available around the clock, and would have it's greatest potentials perhaps in the nighttime, and perhaps also during a polar winter when the outside temperatures are especially cold.
I am thinking of turbines of course.
A city of several square Kilometers/Miles built up would be able to support a very large amount of generative economic activity, just like cities on Earth do.
#9054 Re: Life support systems » Hab at the bottom of a Martian lake » 2014-02-07 21:53:49
Yes, I am actually thinking the best payoff might be a lake where you dump chemicals into it. And a Microorganism population.
In Mexico there is a cave with a toxic atmosphere, but a organism lives there that hangs from the roof. They form Snot-Cycles, and the fish below eat that disgusting stuff.
Mucus it seems I have read contains protein, and sugars, and water, and perhaps some other things I do not understand.
Never the less, our ancestors were willing to make their houses out of sod for a while because wood was too hard to get, and they were willing to burn buffalo chips for similar reasons. Being fussy, maybe can be afforded later, but working with what is possible now plan for better options later.
I would think that lakes could have different chemicals inputted, to support the microbes desired, a "Plankton" to provide materials desired. The organisms digesting the chemicals, and swimming about will actually heat the lake, like a moist hay pile gets hot inside.
It may be needed to actually radiate energy from such lakes or they might get too hot, or you could cut back the magnitude of chemicals added. Chemicals I can think of are Hydrogen, Oxygen, CO2, CO, Hydrogen Sulphide and so on. Not every lake has to be the same.
It seems to me that this requires solar power, and breaking down water, CO2, and soil chemicals to produce what you would want. Further you would have to discover and culture the ecosystem for each lake. Some fresh, some salty. Some with Oxygen, some without.
As for the airlock, in theory, water at 0 Degrees C, would have a vapor pressure of about 6 MB. There is also the problem of evaporation from a place of higher humidity to a place of lower humidity. So, an airlock or pipeline interface does not have to be as rugged as the barriers to hold a 1 bar atmosphere for humans against the 5 MB average pressure of Mars. But holding the humidity in is a hard problem. There are many possible variations.
Someday, I would like a Antarctic type dry valley lake with warm water in it's lower layers. However, in the beginning, though, what is more needed is production of what you would need, so maybe large deep swimming pools are a dream for the far farther future.
As for importing materials, I think that an airlock into such a "COLD" lake will a tool shed, kept cold so that escaped water will condense in it as ice. The shed could be pressurized to a low pressure after the humans enter the shed, and a lid over the hole in the ice could be opened then. Some vapor would evaporate into the shed, and condense as ice. The divers would do their necessary work, and come out. I presume that for these cold lakes the normal would be a collection of pipes to add chemicals, and somehow a method to remove slime, or whatever it is the critters in the lake were making for you to use. After the human activity was done, the humans would exit, and little of the moisture would be lost, because the lid had been closed over the water opening, and the shed door had been closed. Then the shed would be heated, and a compressor would recapture the moisture that had frozen in the shed, and that moisture could be re-injected into the lake as condensed water.
In that notion maybe most items required for the shed and low pressure air lock could be manufactured on Mars.
I don't know, if you want a human passage into a warm water "Dry Valley Lake" then you have to deal with higher pressures. But maybe by then rugged stuff could be manufactured on Mars.
#9055 Re: Life support systems » Hab at the bottom of a Martian lake » 2014-02-07 11:18:26
Maybe Mucus would be good. Dried up on Mars, it might make a good binder.
Seems like something an animal in nature might use to glue together a nest.
http://library.thinkquest.org/J0112390/Boogers.htm
Probably want to give it some extra salt, to keep it fluid in ambient Martian conditions.
Then add Mineral Wool, and maybe some soil, then either compress it into bricks and dry it, or add laminations to a structure that is being built.
BOOGER BRICKS!
Would you rather pick something else?
#9057 Re: Life support systems » Hab at the bottom of a Martian lake » 2014-02-05 13:31:21
I support your views. You used the view scalable, and thats what I like. You can paraterraform a pond, or you can paraterraform a much larger area. The payout on parateraforming or teraforming the whole of planet Mars is long time off, but it can best be done with human presence on Mars. Any tool such as a ice covered water enclosure that might facilitate humans living on Mars, would also facilitate the terraformation of Mars.
Hydrology is going to be important in any case. More water is better as far as I can see. Ignoring the high latitude burried ice as a resource to master is not a good idea in my opinion, and should be fitted into any "Business Plan" for Mars. The Polar ice caps themselves? Maybe much later.
Your above ground hab.
I have been considering that the mid latitudes of the southern hemisphere has salt pans. It is true that some buildings have been constructed from salt here on Earth, salt bricks on the surface, and also in salt mines.
I am considering bricks made of mineral wool with salt as the binder. Compressed blocks.
Also, I wonder about mineral wool fabric similarly glued together in layers by salt. As a glue applied to added layers of mineral wool fabric, it would have to be a cold liquid, as it would be brine, it is likely workable out in the ambient conditions of the surface of Mars.
It is also true that there are different types of salt, and different mixtures could be tried. And as a further wild idea, I wonder about adding sugar and/or starch to the mix. There might be some mixture that would solidify quite nicely in the Martian atmosphere. Of course the mineral wool either as a felt or a fabric would add a lot of strength to the construction. Similar to fiberglass I would think.
I seem to recall that there is someone out there who is thinking about constructing counterpressure frames from Lunal soil glued together with salt. Then a balloon habitat inside of that.
The Mars external environment usually would not be a threat to the integrity of the salt binder, I think, the humidity usually too low. However, the interior humidity could be a threat, so I guess you would need a balloon or other containment wall on the interior to contain the humid and pressurized atmosphere, but the Salt/Mineral Wool concrete substitute could provide the gravitational counterpressure and tensile counterpressure for the most part.
The salt is there aparently, and I believe that mineral wool is rather easy to manufacture, and is also useful as a thermal insulator. Can actually make fabrics from it I guess, but you wouldn't want to wear them, but it might be useful for other mechanical applications.
I would think that salt and mineral wool structures might be useful to hold up solar cell arrays as well.
#9058 Re: Life support systems » Hab at the bottom of a Martian lake » 2014-02-02 20:56:54
I have ideas under development for mobile equipment that can work either on the surface, or in another version under a underground ocean. The idea involves habit + mobility+the ability to reach out with a hand and perform work.
However, to avoid possible humiliation, I do not intend to put a child idea out for examination until it has grown up.
But that is the reason I have some hopes for humans working on Mars. I do not think that counter pressure suits or balloon suits alone will allow a productive enough manipulation of the Martian environment, to make a living. Other methods are needed. For instance the mechanical ape that I posted a number of days ago. But that is not what I am currently working on. (However, I can see a wild modification of it that would be interesting).
If insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different outcome, then sanity may be looking for a new method.
But keep challenging us.
#9059 Re: Life support systems » Hab at the bottom of a Martian lake » 2014-02-02 20:43:23
SpaceNut, Thanks for the conversational reply.
The reason we have not colonised the oceans is that it is almost as hard as the colonisation of space and we have developed techniques that allow us to get at the resources of the ocean without the need for actual permanent manned prescence under the sea. Living underwater has many dangers that afflict aquanauts and they are prone to many illnesses.
Actually I was in both places, and at redmars got spankings regularly. I have had many names.
I totally agree with the opinion quoted. For Earth, a aquatic environment is less livable than living on land or a boat, and working with the deeps with equipment, and if necessary divers. A few feet down, takes away the air, the light, and in many cases involves lethal cold. Go deeper, and it takes very elaborate and expensive equipment to produce gain.
I champion the aquatic environment as a potential supplement to above ground activities.
If you will notice Antarctica, only a small amount of life can exist on the surface, and that just a few species. Go into the water though, and life can abound.
And Antarctica does not have a lack of atmosphere or a radiation problem like Mars on the surface.
Indeed, even on Mars, it may be that it would be preferable for much of human housing to be above surface. Particularly if you are dealing with a cold fresh body of water from 32 to 39 degrees which is the winter normal for temperate climate fresh water lakes.
However, a possible deviation from that would be if you had habitats under the rock of the lakebed, mine shafts perhaps. But be that as it may, I still maintain that while the surface of Mars will not be likely to have a Earth like habitat for 10's and likely hundreds of years, the aquatic subsurface could be made to be Earth like in much shorter time periods.
Honestly I think it is more likely that a more standard method will be used at first, on the surface, at as low a latitude as can provide a substantial glacial source of water. But even there such a method as this could be employed.
So I have a problem with the notion that Mars is the American south west. It looks like it in places, but in reality it is a much more severe version of Antarctica which has an enormous dry valley between the two polar regions.
I look at the high Arctic and Antarctica, and see that life teams in the ocean waters, but is meager on land. To me this is a clue.
Another reason, is that civilizations always establish a good water supply. The Romans did it, we do it. That's where the money and the life is.
It is actually my hope that indeed there was a saltwater ocean in the northern third of Mars, and that the salt is buried under the soil we see. In that case an expanding ocean would dissolve some of that salt, and a salty body of water can have different properties than fresh water. In a dry valley lake, the bottom water can be very salty and shirt sleeve warm. The upper water is colder, and less salty, which is why the warm water below which should be lighter because of a greater heat stays in place. It is made heavy by the greater salt content.
Another reason to consider attempts at this method can be named as Ceres and Callisto for starters. Methods developed in the harsh upper latitudes of Mars may translate into usefulness when going to the icy bodies further out.
Anyway this thread was started as a lake with a nuclear reactor.
I am not a one tract person anyway. Dealing with Mars will require methods to work on the surface as well as dealing with volumes of water.
It is not an "Or" situation, it is an "And" situation.
But criticism is valid. I would not want to cause the effort to take a wrong turn.
#9060 Re: Life support systems » Hab at the bottom of a Martian lake » 2014-02-02 10:58:13
I have a desire for a pond becoming a lake, becoming a sea, and perhaps even an ocean.
Perhaps a system of large lakes in the southern high latitudes, and perhaps one large sea/ocean replacing the northern ice cap/buried ices.
It is not hostile to the notion of terraforming the surface, but would support it, as leaked Methane would occur, and that would be a greenhouse gas to warm up the atmosphere and surface. Eventually a water cycle would occur after a century, with snows, and snow melts, streams and rivers. But the poles would remain rather cold, and would seek to lock up the water resources into ice, and this method would allow that water to be unlocked and utilized.
Water is very important. I like to believe that I am not stubborn, if it turns out to make more sense to inhabit lower latitudes first, then that is the thing to do.
As for experiments, I suggest that here on Earth it should be tried to inject Natural Gas and Air into a frozen over Pond/Lake, and to see what biological ecosystem would develop.
This would also identify organisms to try to use in a ice covered lake on Mars. Natural gas I believe contains some Hydrogen, and some Methane and other things, Air would simply be cheaper to experiment with than Oxygen.
Anyway that's plenty for now.
#9061 Re: Life support systems » Hab at the bottom of a Martian lake » 2014-02-02 10:45:27
As for human mobility in the body of water, here is an interesting start, it already exists, and I suspect that it could be modified to allow humans to work in any part of the water column of the lake.
https://www.google.com/search?q=wasp+un … 28&bih=390
http://www.mtsmuv.org/ads_suits.htm
I have my own designs, something rather different, but am not ready for that yet.
I am sure they are suitable for use in very cold water, and also since they are used to work on underwater oil rigs and other such devices, they could have a place in the methods, but I bet they are rather expensive, but perhaps the infamous 3D printers could manufacture some of the parts for them.
As I have said, I think I have something else to use as well, but it's not time.
Yes, insulated scuba gear might also be used, for shorter durations in favorable conditions, preferably near 1 bar of pressure +/- some value, and if possible in an enclosure with water that has been heated to more suitable temperatures, and which also has an emergency method of life support such as an air pocket in a diving bell. In fact a combination of a diving bell with an open bottom, and a scuba diving suit might be rather useful. The diver could exit it and do some work and re-enter when necessary to warm up, and perhaps to take their gear off if conditions are warm enough. (Do body functions and so on).
#9062 Re: Life support systems » Hab at the bottom of a Martian lake » 2014-02-02 10:41:18
Practicality would have to rule, but if I could have my preferences, the inhabitants would evacuate the location for the winter for lower latitudes, at least until the body of water had been made substantial in size.
As for solar power, I am entertaining the idea that for the most part, it would be used to manufacture chemicals, such as Hydrogen, Methane, and Oxygen to inject to the lake.
As for artificial lighting, I wonder about some type of catalytic burner to provide light from burning Hydrogen and/or Methane in Oxygen, inside of diving bells at locations in the lake. If not that, then perhaps fuel cells, and electric lighting.
Methane could be stored in pressurized tanks in the lake, most likely at greater deep locations.
Oxygen would be the predominant dissolved gas in the lake, and during power outages, it should be provided that it can be extracted from the water for use by humans.
During the winter, it would be possible to sacrifice some of the heat of the lake by radiating it to the surface to generate electric power. However, it is not impossible to speculate on more reactors which would use Martian resources as their fuel.
#9063 Re: Life support systems » Hab at the bottom of a Martian lake » 2014-02-02 10:34:17
If the atmosphere had not been warmed up by then with greenhouse gasses, and by putting dirt from Phobos/Demos on to the C02 of the south polar ice cap, then the inhabitants would have to cope with very long winters where C02 condenses to about 6 feet??? and is very hostile to above surface equipment. However they might be able to design equipment that could cope with it. Perhaps inflatable domes would be deflated for the winter (Greenhouses), and solar panels would simply have to be made rugged in such a way that the CO2 condensate would not ruin them quickly.
#9064 Re: Life support systems » Hab at the bottom of a Martian lake » 2014-02-02 10:29:48
The objective would be to provide a sheltered location for humans, in the bitterly hostile location of the high latitudes of Mars.
How humans then land, and enter the lake becomes a problem to solve.
When the enter the lake, they might find that it offers radiation protection, liquid water (Which may need treatment), Oxygen dominated waters. The Hydrogen and Methane should have been absorbed by life forms. The Oxygen could be extracted, or the reactor could be tapped into to pipe some of the Oxygen to their habitat. The Hydrogen and Methane could be utilized as fuel. The humans would need to inject more Carbon and Nitrogen into the lake from the atmosphere.
The reactor would give off heat, and also the chemicals being processed by organisms and their mobile activities in the lake would provide melting.
From the bottom of the lake they might obtain a more fertile soil to grow garden plants, since the organic activity of the lake might have improved that soil by that time.
#9065 Re: Life support systems » Hab at the bottom of a Martian lake » 2014-02-02 10:19:17
The objective would be to find a location with desired resources.
-A deep and wide body of ice.
-Useful minerals at the bottom of the ice. At least something you could manufacture needed machines from. Manufacture solar cell panels.
The plutonium sources would have to have a prolonged containment life, so that they could be retrieved later and disposed of properly.
Upon discovery that supports the investment, a true nuclear reactor would be deployed, with the capability to evaporate and melt its way down through the ice and to begin creating a melt water pocket covered with ice. I would expect that after deployment eventually the wind would cover the entrance ice with soil from around the area. Before it submerged, perhaps it would collect some Carbon from the atmosphere.
The nuclear reactor machine would make a second attempt to discover life, upon melting, water should react with minerals in the lake bottom, such as iron, to produce Hydrogen. It is possible that Martian life, if it existed would try to use it as a food source. If this had negative results, then the reactor machine would begin to manufacture Hydrogen, Methane, and Oxygen from water and it's carbon stores. (There would likely be CO2 dissolved in the ice, but I am not certain of that). It would inject the Hydrogen to one layer, and the Oxygen to another layer. I suggest the Hydrogen and Methane would be allowed to bubble up to the underside of the ice, and the Oxygen dissolved to the lake bottom water.
Since life had not been discovered (I presume), perhaps an Oxygen over lake bottom stimulus would cause it to metabolize. I am not inclined to think so, but maybe.
Upon a negative discovery of life, the reactor machine would release Earth micro-organisms to metabolize the chemicals (Hydrogen, Methane, Oxygen) of the waters, and also to inhabit the melted subsoil.
#9066 Re: Life support systems » Hab at the bottom of a Martian lake » 2014-02-02 10:00:38
I really like GW Johnsons article.
It may be that the soil and ice moving process will turn out to be the best way.
However I would prefer to seek a method where indeed such a lake would begin with ice already in place, and a nuclear reactor, which would initiate the lake.
Such a process could be preceded with a Mars probe involving plutonium energy sources.
I would like to see a durable lander with a plutonium energy source put down on the ice around one of the polar ice caps. I would want this lander to be able to survive the polar winters. It should also carry a child probe with it's own plutonium power source, and that child probe should be deployed to the ice which I would hope would have been cleared by the landing event, much as occurred near the south pole of Mars already.
Perhaps the lander would have extra fuel, so that it can hop if the first deployment is not suitable. It might also fire its engines more without liftoff, to further clear the ice, and perhaps to preheat it a bit and perhaps also to evaporate a hollow hole.
The child probe would be lowered into the hole, and it's plutonium power source would need to be powerful enough to drill through the ice by evaporation and later melting.
The ideal outcome would be the probe being encased in ice with a water pocket. The child probe should have some means to detect existing life, or evidence of organics.
The child probe should ideally melt it's way down through the ice down, down to the bottom, where it should encounter rock or mud. The probe should be analyzing the chemistry as it travels.
It might talk to the parent probe by sound, the lander having microphones in its feet, and the two being able to talk to each other.
I believe that GW Johnson believes in having ground truth, and this could provide it.
It might be necessary to have several of these, or to have the lander have several child probes, and to be able to hop to several locations for deployments.
#9067 Re: Terraformation » 16 Psyche » 2014-01-27 23:05:14
I guess I might wonder if factories on it could manufacture robot solar sails, that would guide themselves to a purpose.
Since you mention Venus, perhaps they could guide themselves to impact Venus, and neutralize the acids. I know that it has been
proposed to do that from Mercury or the Moon, but the energy to go into solar orbit would be far less on 16 Psyche, and with so much
purity of metals before processing, I would presume manufacturing a foil sail might be economical.
As for Mars, maybe you could do similar, but instead of crashing they would guide themselves to a retrieval point, to be reprocessed into the Mirrors that many think could be useful in terraforming.
As for the outer solar system, I would think you could build containments, sail them over to Ceres, and fill up with water, and establish a population into the habitats, and then slowly move them to points in the outer solar system.
#9068 Re: Terraformation » 16 Psyche » 2014-01-27 20:03:10
If the right development were to occur in economics and technology, I would think that materials from such an object could cause a massive deviation in the course of history. For instance the materials might be rather useful in constructing machines that alter environments of planets. I don't have anything particular in mind, but have to imagine that the power of it could be massive in altering planetary environments.
I had thought what if you made the asteroid into a foam of hollow shells for a habitat. How big would that be? Of course that is not a best use, but it is a curiosity. That much metal.
#9069 Terraformation » 16 Psyche » 2014-01-27 19:29:08
- Void
- Replies: 17
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16_Psyche
Apparently a Iron/Nickel core. Pretty big chunk of metal with some slag. May have an intense magnetic field. Not much like other asteroids I guess. No water to speak of. I bet it got boiled off if their was any when the core got exposed by impacts.
I guess I would build habitats out of it curious what you would do. What potential do you see for it in a solar system economy?
#9070 Re: Civilization and Culture » French Republican Mars Calendar » 2014-01-27 12:49:29
We most likely could not understand their level of morality. Perhaps they are slightly interested, and care a little bit about us. But revealing themselves would take away our story, leave us with a loss of some kind.
#9071 Re: Civilization and Culture » French Republican Mars Calendar » 2014-01-27 11:21:30
I think agumented humans. And their associated smart appliances.
Cancer is a deviation from a body plan.
I believe that any machine culture would rapidly decay into a cancer which will consume it's host, and in a fit of insanity go extinct.
I have plenty of personal reasons to believe that there is a higher order beyond ours.
Motivation is really just passing time, waiting for the next phone call from reality. Taking the call, responding, experiencing.
I don't see robots being able handle irrational reality, without self destructive behaviors.
Our emotions about playing a game where we either handle a situation or don't. The emotion is the basis of existance.
#9072 Re: Civilization and Culture » French Republican Mars Calendar » 2014-01-27 09:06:56
Cyborg society I guess. If robots get smarter Cyborg/People do as well. How does that end??? Not really this old mans problem.
Some things are way above my pay grade.
#9073 Re: Civilization and Culture » French Republican Mars Calendar » 2014-01-27 06:52:31
Tom Kalbfus said:
Now the question arises of what happens when robots replace humans in a lot of other fields of economic activity? I think in that case the Earned income tax credit becomes a lot more important, which is a kind of negative income tax in the United States.
Well, then people with skills to do what the robots do not do will gain in importance. There have been several things dragging the American economy down. One, is that the post WWII benefit ran out. Others became more competitive again, and others developed a use to compete for resources again. Turning away from automated manufacturing was a mistake as well, but it could not be avoided apparently because the low wage work force that became availible around the world was too much of a trend to fight against.
If robots are actually productive, then naturally there will be more wealth to spend. You can't eat a loaf of bread unless someone makes one. If the robots make lots of bread, then everyone has better chances of getting some.
But by 2025 +/- ??? we should be done with our culture wars, and a very materialistic and not so spiritual culture. If you can make a case for wealth and money from space, they will come.
It is not the baby boomers who will have such an attitude, but the three following generations who had to put up with growing up in the crisis who will have such attitudes. They will want a better material life, and no words will change their attitude about it.
My own take is that economics is like a very simple electrical power formula. P=I*E
But "E" is equivalant to economic stratification. This shows people that if you are successful (And sometimes luck is a factor in that) you must try to do what it takes, or you will be poor.
But "I" represents opportunity. A stratified society suffers from a lack of chances for those with potential. If they cannot afford training in terms of money or time, then they don't get trained and all the previous energy that society (Parents) invested in them goes to waste.
I am not a socialist at all. Nor do I like pseudo plantation type cultures. It is by finding a hybrid of the two, that the greatest economic power is realized.
It is like the family. We do not take babies and throw them out into the January snow, and say "We can create a super race. The ones that survive will be strong, it will be a race of supermen".
No, if any children did survive that the would breed a race of sharks. Small minded, very good at what they do, and instinctive, not suitable for an advanced society, it's creation or maintenance.
As for the de-stratification tool? I don't know, I have read that it will happen. I am not going to be a part of that. I am a baby boomer. Spiritual, creative. Have enough to get by in material things. Moving to the end of my life, just an observer for the most part.
#9074 Re: Civilization and Culture » French Republican Mars Calendar » 2014-01-26 23:05:32
Because America won't persist in this pattern . according to the book the fourth turning.
American should enter a new era of confidence around 2025 .supposedly this will involve a greater economic equality and some and some modern equivalent of labor union activity . The era of vertical stratification will be over. We have resources along with Canada resources . We have two Rovers on Mars . it's frustrating to see the lack of progress but a lot is being done . America is not a sluch when it comes to space activities . I'm extremely happy to see the Europeans being involved too . and many others . there is likely to be a trade organization between Europe and North America and the Pacific trade organizations as well. The British would be well-positioned to participate to their own benefit. Economic activities would also include space activities I'm sure .
#9075 Re: Unmanned probes » Dawn - Vesta & Ceres orbiter » 2014-01-24 11:21:28
It most likely is just exposed ice evaporating.
But as a long shot, I have speculated that the solar wind having magnetic properties and fluctuating could cause molecules to be nudged a bit.
Either ferous materials, or salt water pockets. I've only gotten silence so far on that suggestion when I have ever brought it up.
Even on Earth, with a protective magnetic field, enormous energies are exhibited during large solar storms. So much as to knock out power grids.
It could generate heat by nudging molecules, and also, could also generate large ground currents with counter EMF.