New Mars Forums

I would not feel so all  alone, everybody must get stoned

An interesting connectable process.

Here is another:

http://nopr.niscair.res.in/handle/123456789/12967

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22446641

Bags of water on the surface would be the simplest greenhouse, protected from freeze thaw cycles by thermal inertia and phase change thermal resistance.

As I see it a web of interconected processes would make the most sense.

Solar CO2 Reduction, Boidiesel as sources of hydrocarbon fuels.

Mushrooms, and fish to consume the scraps from both processes.

In some cases breaking organic waste into Methane, to release as a greenhouse gas perhaps, or to be recycled to an artificial Methane seep.

I am hoping that at some point Mushrooms could be genetically altered to have some of the nutitional value of green vegtibles, and perhaps meat.

Both processes to generate liquid fuels Solar-CO2 Reduction, and Biodiesel are solar.

With a good source of water, and the ability to fabricate large plastic bags, however, I now favor the biodiesel.  Fresh ice water would not require that the bags be pressurized much at all.

With Mushrooms altered to provide a better spectrum of human nutrition, and a few greenhouses, and perhaps some chemically driven fish farms, productivity sufficient to support a human population on Mars seems plausable.

This would eliminate a large amount of windows with differential pressure across them and also reduce the amount of artificial lighting for plants that would be required.

At the same time a fuel source for industry would be established.

I modified my post, perhaps you will tolerate this being here, if not I will delete it for you.
http://poetinthecity.wordpress.com/2011 … -counting/

Weeping tears an a forever night.
Gliding on the mirror of dark sky.
Waters wavering reflections.
But none of them banana's, only lights.

That wasn't nice

Really, measure the board, then cut it.

Karovs issue is he wants to create Caspia.  It is interesting, because it is a notion to teraform Earth.  If it has value I guess it could be considered, but I think Karov just likes to exercise his imagination and other skills.

I am not panicking.  I live quite far above the water line in fact.

After taking proper measurements, it may be decided that "engineering the Earth to preserve old structures is just plain silly" or not.  One interesting point is that the Dutch might be interested in helping the Caspian nations do that engineering. And I would not necessarily dismiss the notion that New York City and other such places might be willing to help finance and engineer such a project, to protect their own interests.

A possible source of food, feedstock for plastics, soil for other crops.

Fuel from renewable energy and CO2 (Water also I presume)
http://phys.org/news/2014-05-method-bis … oxide.html

Mushrooms
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l05knxG6eT0

Aquatic Microbes
http://www.scientificamerican.com/slide … lide-show/

Methane seeps
http://www.arctic.noaa.gov/essay_vogt.html
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 … 135149.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_seep

So, I have hit on some of these before elsewhere and elsewhen.  But the fuel production obviously would interesting as a fuel source.  But Martian soil mixed with oil and treated with Mushrooms, might become more suitable for other crops.

The Mushrooms themselfs are a food item.

Cold Seeps could be created in the in aquatic environments, and bacteria at the base of a food chain.

The value of a fuel and Oxygen based agriculture, is that in the high lattitudes where most of the water is, seasonal variations will make winter a harder time to produce food that depends on sunlight, but fuel and Oxygen can be stored for winter use.

And the same processes will support a plastic industry, and of course internal combustion engines, and fuel cells.

I would like to point out that this could be practiced on Mars in places.
I would pick a glacier in Hellas.
http://www.redorbit.com/news/space/1371 … s_craters/
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Marti … ports.html
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap081124.html
http://www.jsg.utexas.edu/news/2008/11/ … latitudes/ 
The favorable factors are:
1)    The air pressure in Hellas is thicker, so better radiation protection.
2)    Big water supply for some time.
3)    It is not utterly impossible that some type of Lichen could be cultivated in the open surface, with a bit of UV protection.  (Lichen as we know them are slow growing however).
4)    Surface greenhouses are an option, with various levels of pressurization.
5)    Solar energy is available on the surface, but would be seasonal, but that’s not necessarily bad, if your economic activities are scheduled for the availability of energy.
Beyond that dirty Ice above a layer of Sandstone or Salt caverns would be a very good opportunity to build a multi-layered city, where the upper caves were more similar to the outside environment, and each lower layer was more and more like Earths atmosphere.
Dirty Ice and Sandstone, or salt would be possible to build caves in most likely.
One thing that most Mars settlement schemes I have seen lack is a good way to create lots of living space in an economic way.
So, on the surface greenhouses to grow bulk food, and a few smaller types that allow humans in shirt sleeves to interact with vegetation and the sunlight.
The first layer of caves would be unpressurized and carved into the glacier.  Places to put machinery, that might manufacture special chemicals from atmospheric chemicals.  Storage for food, and parts perhaps.
The next layer of caves pressurized to 1/3 bar with Martian atmosphere.  This one in the ice as well.  As a passage between levels, and also as a place where toxic chemical processes could be carried out.
Since humans would suffocate in such an environment, the would have a breathing suit, but not a pressure suit.  Toxic gasses would be vented to the outside as possible and convenient.  Hopefully some of them would be greenhouse gasses.
The next layer would be O2 @ 1/3 bar pressure.
The last ice cave layer would be N2/O2 @ 1 bar pressure.  Things like ice hockey could be supported, or ice skating.  People do not live by bread alone.
In both cases it would be possible to have heated sheds with artificial lights to cultivate certain plants if that makes economic or spiritual sense.  For instance Apple trees.  If the soil at the bottom of the ice cave is thick enough and thermally insulating enough, it would be possible to heat a “Tented” area to sufficient temperatures to allow a growing season.  Providing Apples and wood.  Then a unheated season would be provided which would be tolerable to the trees, and would allow the long term thermal balance of the soil and ice layer below it.
Finally I would hope to transition into sandstone, but perhaps even a salt cavern.  (Sandstone is much more likely).
That would be to provide housing for humans, although some of the Ice caves could host homes for humans.
(Note: There could be a N2/O2 1 bar ice cave with special acoustics for Eskimo’s to scream in) 
Such tricks learned on Mars could be instructive as to how to similar things on Titan and other worlds perhaps.

The second time I try to respond and then my post is vanished.

Anyway thank you for your patience.

I was helped to understand by your response.

OK, I will play.

Supposing the nations with coastlines consented due to the value of the change, it also could reduce the supposed rise in sea levels in the major oceans, but just a little.

I once had thought that if sea water could be impounded into basins in the North American great basin, then evaporation and the rings of mountains would generate much fresh water.  Impractical as far as I can see, for the needed energy, the disposal of accumulated salts, and also there are very few people who really want to do the real work needed to establish the infrastructure in my tribes at this time (Most of them want to do fake work involving a desk, meetings, and general red tape (Ape) interference with getting things done, and of course pay unmerited).

But your Caspia plan makes more sense than that.

A sort of local Terraforming on Earth it seems.

I guess, I. Use such similar notions to dispute those who would say interstellar travel is impossible.  I am thinking oort cloud to oort cloud.  Thousands of years in the future.

I did not want to step on what you are proposing.  That is fine, I just wanted to augment it with the potential of Dwarf Planets, rocky asteroids displaced into the outer solar system, and interstellar travel.  I do agree with your point that a certain sized comet might be more ideal.

I do like the idea of pressurized shell worlds without a core.

I think they could be sensible for a future reality where stony/metalic materials could be obtained from the inner solar system or from comets or dwarf planets where an impact has stripped most of the ice off.

Here are some links about "Dwarf Planets".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_planet

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/26/tech/inno … ar-system/

I put an interstellar twist on this as well.  While if the human type or some derivative of the human type may persist into the future and may find ways to travel to the nearest stars, I really do understand that that such a enormous task as to cause pause and unbelief in the notion.

However modification of the human species, connected with better propulsion systems, and leapfrogging across tiny worlds might suggest the chance that some derivative of the human race may become a star spanning humanoid type.

We can hope that small rocky asteroids have been displaced into the Kepler belt, and the Oort Cloud.  If so, then with an energy source, (Fusion, Vast focused solar concentrator, dark matter interface, dark energy????), I would suggest the preference would be to create shells without a core around dwarf planets.  cause them to be moons of such worlds.  For Pluto, it might be possible to mess with Charon.  Melt the interior, push a bubble of air into it and cause cryovolcanos on the surface, which will freeze.  Repeat?  Then strip mine Pluto to make more shell moons.  In this case, it might be possible to have an economy where humans desiring housing, offer their savings, to obtain such, and that money could pay to obtain materials that those dwarf planets could not supply.  Eventually, however the ice layer would be removed, and a rocky/metalic core exposed.  Then a different economic reality.

This is a matter that draws my mind now.

From my last post, a link to a article, I have a quote:

While I draw from the above with what I say, and support their intentions, I have to point out that across large parts of Mars is a Duracrust, which I believe consists of fine grained soil, salt, and periodically some moisture.

As integrated into the low atmospheric pressures experience by the Martian surface, I suggest that the deep thermal cycling is a vast blessing to life.

I have said some of these things before.  In the Arctic ice pack fresh water ice is generated by periodic low temperatures that squeezes the brine salts out of the ice.
Then on a particularly warm Arctic summer day their could be a instance of this fresher ice melting and providing a habitat for life.

Similarly, I propose that although the sunset and early night of Mars may cause a absorption of moisture into the salt of it from the cooling Martian atmosphere, the deep night should to a degree push brine from the result that then freezes.  If pockets, films either fresh or somewhat salty are then warmed by the early Martian daytime sunlight, then temperatures of -15 degC are possible, and so a habitat for life.  It is even possible that in cracks and such in the duracrust photo activity could occur.  Perhaps even just under the top grains of the crust.

And why it would not be there is an amazing question.

Maybe I need to learn something important?