New Mars Forums

Agent009 supplied:

Giving some additional support I did not realize.

Josh argued that Diffusion would act against what I suggested.

I think you are both correct.

I will start by arguing that whatever Hydrogen and Helium could diffuse into the other layers would.  But upon being saturated with them any remaining balance of them would float to the top of the atmosphere and pool there.

Nitrogen, Neon, and Argon would be below that in some arrangement.  They would indeed have some Hydrogen and Helium mixed with them.

For my continuation I will speculate that water does on Earth what I expect to happen in the Rogue planet for Nitrogen, Neon, and Argon.

Water vapor cannot get into the Stratosphere very much because of a precipitation height.  So, stays below that level until large precipitation brings it down.  Snow, Rain, Hail.

I don't expect enormous amounts of Neon.  Just a little might do.

Because as Agent009 informed me it is lighter than Nitrogen as a Molecule, at the area where the atmosphere transitions into Hydrogen and Helium, I would expect Nitrogen to precipitate out more aggressively than Neon.  This would then leave behind a reduced content of Nitrogen in the Mix, and an enhanced content of Neon, Hydrogen, and Helium.  This would be a continuing replenishing process I believe, that might resemble air on Earth being dryer after the clouds release their rain.

However I might hope that the Neon would also condense to a degree at about ~25 K, into a fog either droplets or ice fog.  Why I care, is Nitrogen needs ~70 K to maintain pressure (Unless at very low pressures).  So, the cloud tops for a Neon enhanced layer would only radiate ~25 K to the universe through the Hydrogen and Helium.  It is an improvement over radiating ~70 K.

Further, if the Nitrogen then is kept warmer by a Neon cloud deck and the Neon vapors (Don't know if Neon has much greenhouse value, then  below that could be a Nitrogen cloud fog. 

Maybe also somewhere an Argon cloud fog.

Since the source of heat that matters is geothermal, 3 cloud decks would help a lot.

Then there might be Hydrocarbon fogs somewhere like on Titan.

Particulates in the atmosphere would have a lot to do with the atmospheric behaviors.

To Teraform such a world injecting particulates might be a tool, and of course fusion reactors. 

Since such worlds are said to have a heat source of 1/5000th of that of our sun, it is not that far fetched to imaging adding another 1/5000 to the environment from waste heat.

For my part, I would disperse the waste heat into any oceans, and let it move into the atmosphere through the ice, getting double use from it.

With a cold atmosphere, I do not think it would be that far fetched to have domes made of flexible materials, which would be inflated by heated air inside, and which might have a Breathable atmosphere inside.

Some worlds would be better than others.

I hope there's lots of them.

True, 1/5000th might not be enough to keep Neon, Nitrogen, and Argon from freezing, but maybe 1/2500th would or with more aggressive heating that that, such an atmospheric process could be manufactured.

I am just saying that prospects for at least creating a terraformed Rogue planet are improved by what I think can be done.

With enough fusion power on the surface and super greenhouse gasses added perhaps it could eventually host open water, and lighted gardens.

Under Ice Oceans:
http://www.wired.com/2011/02/steppenwolf-planet/

http://www.centauri-dreams.org/?p=16794

Thick Atmopheres:(Hydrogen and/or Helium on top, maybe Nitrogen below?) (Pressure at the bottom of atmosphere like the bottom of our oceans)

Open water oceans?? (Under very very thick Hydrogen atmosphere:
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=99236

Nice conversation you are doing on this one.

Alright, I  guess I will set your site free from me.  Good luck.  I'm going to try to stay away, but maybe not permanent.  I hope you get it back to what it was.

Would you like to be able to afford the mission or be unrealistic?

You are talking Mars, and cyclers, and an electric/chemical mix, so;

I notice that a constraint is imposed by the orbital relationship of Mars and Earth, requiring a rigid timing for the launch of missions.

Cyclers have a birth and a death by default.  Maybe as a habitat the death can be put off with repairs, but here the concern is the support of a mission to Mars, so not a long term habitat.

I think that things could be improved by making a cycler which is primarily electric driven, which would also use gravitational assists by interacting with Earth.  The cycler would start out as electric-unpersoned, and would evolve into a partially gravity encounter driven device.

It would be comprised of primary electrical capabilities, solar or nuclear, and an electric drive, and also a low level synthetic gravity (Specific to a human habitat part) device.  In addition it would provide refueling for a personed associated mission, and such redundancy failsafes as might be added for a mission to Mars.

I have wondered how fast a person would deteriorate if in the gravity field of Ceres.  Supposing that Mars was achieved in a A to B fashion, supporting the further expansion of humans into space, the exploration of this question has value.

I suggest that the pseudo-cycler could have a baton type rotor habitat suitable to generate a simulation of Ceres, and answer that question, while the mission was occurring.

So the aspect of human deterioration I would hope to study and perhaps modify with this process would be the fluid pooling in the upper body, which makes humans uncomfortable and also damages some things perhaps like the eyes.

A human perhaps lies down for 1/3 of the day in a bed, and yet is not damaged by that.  So, the body must be able to temporarily compensate for the loss of standing up in a gravitational field, for a significant part of the day.  Further, most people must only be on their feet for a minority part of the day.

Further, I am hoping that for the fluid pooling problem, the effects are not a strait line.  That even a small gravity field might allow the body to adjust fluid pooling in the gravitation of Ceres.  If not, then at least it is further learned that the problem is larger.

For the pseudo cycler, the tank/habitat could be an holding tank for a "Fuel" for the electric rocket.  When it was empty it could be modified to be a habitat. Needed equipment brought into the habitat from places outside where they had been stored.

When this apparatus is primed to the proper orbit by gravitational assists, Then the human mission would begin.  I suggest redundant spacecraft, two capsules capable of atmospheric return of some type.  A intercept of the cycling device by that human mission with some thought on how to abort back to Earth if possible in the event of a system failure.

The cycler having developed a elliptical orbit from electrical and gravitational processes would be primed for the mission.  As the high point of the orbit could be anywhere, this then modifies the limits of the present situation where alignments of Mars and Earth restrict the timing of missions.

The primary human capsule being specifically crafted to land on Mars and perform the Mars mission, the secondary being crafted to encounter one or two of the moons of Mars, but also being crafted to do an emergency rescue of persons on the surface of Mars in the event that was called for.

Should the human mission successfully merge with the cycler, then a automatic return abort would be in place.  However to reach Mars, if all systems were good, then a propulsive alteration of orbit would be implemented, and the game would be on.  Propulsion should stop some time before encountering Mars, so that the two atmospheric entry devices could be separated from the main craft to be allowed to spin on tethers, to provide a greater synthetic gravitation, to prepare the humans for action on the ground at Mars.  However the separation from the main craft and this synthetic gravitational device would be only enough to avoid collisions.

Prior to the encounter and capture into the gravitational field of Mars, the hardware would be secured together again, and whatever propulsion could accomplish the capture would be put into process.

At Mars, whatever pre-positioned supplies/devices would be have been put into place in orbit and on the ground as might be useful to support the objectives.

Methods to return to Earth to finish the mission would be open to best options, so I choose not to specify on that.

Returning to the cruse phase where the humans might be experimenting with a low gravitational simulation, (Ceres), I suggest that as a supplement humans might try to sleep standing up in the synthetic gravitation, with a harness.  Perhaps it is possible.  Also, I also suggest a upper body frame/harness, and a lower body frame/harness which would be actuated against each other to both compress the Legs/spine and tension them in suitable fashion to stimulate the bones.  I suggest that if there is going to be a private mission using a free return they consider trying this method to help reduce the rate of bone loss.

As for radiation protection, the pseudo cycler might be able to afford that, so while in cruse phase the humans would have significant protection.

Obviously exercise would be utilized where possible to reduce musel deterioration.  I also suggest that the electrical stimulation of mussels be investigated, such as is being used to try to help persons who cannot walk without it.  This could also have value for the bones.

I'm done.

My opinion is that the older a culture is, without representative tradition, the harder it is to modify it to what we consider representative government.

We tollerated lots of shortcommings from our nearer neighbors, and with patience have seen many near cultures move in directions we favor.  Much of South America and Mexico and such are somewhat improved.

We ourselves, suffer from captive govenment entities like the FDA (Under strong influence from corporations), and other non-democratic government entities, and are going backwards to a degree ourselves.

I consider government to be any individual of collection of individuals that has the power to regulate how I live my life.  So elected officials are becomming less and less important.

Russia/Soviet Union is/was composed of a spectrum of types, Peoples even on the Baltic Sea, so newer cultures, (In fact that area at an early time in it's history was almost progressing similar to other Atlantic coast cultures, but then the eastern invasions set that back).  Some peoples are almost to the Middle East, which I think it is apparent are the ones having some of the worst problems with relegious and ethnic tollerances.  I can't explain to anyone in full what the roots of that are, so I fall back on the notion that their cultural foundations are very old, and updating is very hard for them.

Similarly, Russia should have some patience from us.  Crimea was a very special situation, where they could not afford to be muscled out of their military positions at this time.

As for the Ukraine, I am guessing the Putin wants as much influence there as is practicle and does not cause problems, but I think he most likely wants to settle for not much more than that.

But we are far apart as types, so it could turn out I don't understand.

But I would make the point that at one point Chile, obtained the sea coast from Bolivia, and Bolivia still wants it back, but still our interest is in encouraging both Chile and Bolivia to be more representative in their government methods.

Similarly, our interest is in representative government in all locations of Russia and Ukraine, within the limits of our properly used influence.  Who owns what is of a secondary importance.

Small world, atmosphere might transfer enough heat to the dark side to prevent atmospheric collapse from condensation.

I would also suggest a Dyson orbital segments sphere, where the orbital segments are composed of a framework suitable to extract energy from the solar wind and partially deflect it, and a window glass component would serve to further deflect the solar wind, and also serve as a lid on radiant heat.  Ideally it would also rebound some molecules leaving the upper atmosphere back downward.  The power harvested from the solar wind might be used to generate a magnetic field, or might be beamed downwards to the surface, or some of each.  If this worked OK for Ceres, then perhaps Mars.

A melted surface however presents problems, were blocks of deep ice might float upwards if stimulated by a striking object, or a quake?  Cities on the frozen dark side?  A sea on the sunward side?

For a minimum effort extraction of materials from the moon, I guess I would speculate on a robotic tricycle.  The rear two wheels have brakes, and the front wheel being a “Brush”.  Under the tricycle would be slung a dust pan.  The target would be Moon dust.  The back end could have a balancing weight which would also be useful machinery, which could control the amount of force being imposed on the front wheel / circular brush.
As dust is considered a hazard to work on the Moon, the partial removal of it from a surface area would provide a bulk material to extract to orbit, and also a cleaner surface area to later place some machines of a speculated future activity.  It would also provide scientific data, since the dust could be separated and examined in orbit, if that had some value, and the swept surface would expose rocks that could be examined robotically.
I presume the dust pan must be emptied somehow into a bin, the bin perhaps being picked up later by a hook on a lander of some sort.  I choose not to dwell on the details, because there would be many variations that might work.
The value of the materials extracted would include Oxygen, and of course a spectrum of materials.
For magnetic materials not to be used to make machines, I suggest the Mond process be employed, and the liquid be channeled into an spray paint type of device that will spray it using pressurized heated gas, and an educator.  The purpose would be to generate a fine powder with some magnetic properties.
Iron Pentacarbonyl  as a liquid, and Nickel Pentacarbonyl perhaps. 
Exposure to the atomizing hot gas should atomize the material and also convert it to tiny Carbonyl Iron/Nickel spheres.
I presume this would occur in a pressurized chamber, so as to be able to recycle the gasses.
Useful for;
Electronics
Powder Metallurgy
I am also interested in squirting it out of a mass driver as a powder mixed into a gas as a slurry.  I have questions about the actual magnetic properties of the powder, and really have some ideas for the mass driver, but no set design.  It would be nice to incorporate a introduction of a Oxidizer into the ejection process and so a dust explosive burn to add propulsion, but that could contradict or complicate the mass driver process.
Human visits necessary to the Moon to support the extraction process would have to be paid for by an actual value of it.  If that money equation proved true, then I don’t have a problem visualizing a device being built and contracted for hire by some company or national entity.
The value of ejecting fine dust might be that the solar wind, or the Earths magnetic field might act to eventually sweep the dust from the area of it’s ejection, which I suppose might be a good thing.
I also have my eye on Phobos and Demos, and also 16 Psyche (Big chunk of Iron/Nickel)
As for the energy for the propulsion device, I suppose variations.  I am not against fission nuclear.

Well, I would not expose such personal details to those I do not trust willingly at all, but I did encounter a White Russian female at a place to eat.  Boy was she a cutie.  And then she waved to me as I left.  Can't forget something like that.  But in the end I consider that their is a limit to my foolishness.  But yes what a seemingly wonderful person.  Does that bother you?  Don't let it bother you.

Antius,

I enjoyed your post.  There are many ways to cook an egg.  Those in the UK and Europe might prefer one approach, we, and others something else.

I encourage Tom, because he tries a different method.  That at the very least will expose it to testing.  (As you have done).

Musk, I believe was not emerged from my local tribe, but he brings something very useful which is what I prefer to encourage.

It is interesting you and your kind seem to have this desire to take an object such as an asteroid or comet and turn it into a very long voyage spaceship.  I have seen similar from your corner of the world before.

I was a Moon bug, and still am to a minor extent.  I do not think we should ignore the Moon.  However, having been informed of the heavy water concentrate on Mars, and the probability of Lithium salt concentrations on Mars due to its wetter past, I have upgraded my thinking about the potential for humans to settle Mars, and for Mars to become an important link in a progression towards adjacent star systems. 

For Alpha-Centauri I hold out the hope for a Titan to Earth+ size world with a Nitrogen dominated atmosphere somewhere from 2.0 AU from the binary star out to the point where a Nitrogen atmosphere would collapse from the cold.  That would be out to approximately Titan or a little colder.

Titan would then be the most rational playground to experiment with setting up a "Civilization" which might maintain youthful cultural capability for some time before its inhabitants degenerate into a post civilized insectoid nature.

"Specialization is for insects".  Heinlein

Your idea might be modified where you find an object in an elliptical orbit and sort it's materials, and leave the "Tailings" behind, and construct a transit device from what you were going to take with you.  Of course you were going to eject some of the materials for propulsion, so that's not much of a deviation.

But with that we begin to converge.  Having done it that way, and then entering the new system if you could converge with a comet of that system, then you would have resupply for expansion.  But this time you would modify the tailings into an impact object.  Changing course to pass by the cold Nitrogen dominated world, and impacting it with the tailings, so as to elevate it's temperature temporarily.  At the same time leaving behind some persons to land and take advantage of that to set up a hardened base of operations that could function in the resuming cold climate, but which would release the super greenhouse gasses that have been discussed at this site.

This could be a plan if either the Oort cloud only goes out 1 light year or merges with that of the adjacent star.

Of course the plan could also have automated probes that go ahead of it, and maybe even some small crews who arrive prior to the impact object.  That might be the case if it had safe havens of some type of a natural sort.

For instance I have speculated on what would have happened to Venus if it had been ejected to the outer solar system after having had it's run-away greenhouse effect.
Likely, it would cool, and start with a CO2 ocean, and then a frozen ocean of CO2 topped with perhaps a thick Nitrogen atmosphere which would not freeze if it never cooled below 70 K at the bottom?

Then likely comets would impact and add water.  Eventually the crust would be lubricated with water, and moving plates would develop like for Earth.  The CO2/H20 ice layers would split at the bottoms of the "Oceans", and if the movement of the split were sufficient, then glaciation would not be able to envelop the split and something like the Mid Atlantic rift would be exposed to the atmosphere, and of course volcanism, and hot spots.  Where plates dive under each other the ices would pile up and cover underground liquid pockets.  With earthquakes this should be released periodically, and just perhaps produce catastrophic floods which might deliver a flow to the base of the volcanic "Mid Atlantic" zone.  So, maybe even hot springs in places.  So if that existed, then there might be a Oasis that would favor an early habitation of such a world with or without an impactor process.

Without rude intent.

Other societies contain the descendants of restless peoples.  Perhaps North America, Austrailia, etc.

I would think that with the foundations in place interstellar travel could be an occurance for parts of the human race.

The foundations might start with Mars.

https://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2013AM/webpr … 32930.html

http://www.engineeringchallenges.org/cms/8996/9079.aspx

If Mars did have flowing water, then it is reasonable that Lithium salts have been disolved from the general rocks, and deposited as evaporates in certain locations.  Previosly it was mentioned that Mars appears to have 5 times the heavy water concentration that Earth does.  All of this contributes to the notion that for energy Mars might like Fusion.

As for Lithium elsewhere in the solar system, perhaps Ceres has lithium in the surface deposites?  Perhaps it had an ocean and disolved Lithium from the rocks, and then as the outer layers of ice evaporated, it left behind clay like deposites which might contain lithium?  Maybe Ceres has concentrated heavy water as well?

Anyway supposing that fusion rocket propulsion made the solar system accessable out to Pluto, then there would almost certainly be some small groups that would choose to extend to objects out to the Oort cloud.  By then those humans would be adapted to that environment, and would not think it strange to jump to another Oort cloud around an adjacent star.

Although it is not confirmed some speculation would have it that the Oort clouds go all the way out.  That is Alpha Centauri would occasionally exchange objects with Sol.  In that case there might not have to be a classical high speed crossing over light years of distance, but simply a constant even progression.