New Mars Forums

Robert,

tilapia. sounds OK.

I personally think it would not hurt to move away from eating mammals.  For some type of evolving higher morality, and also because the closer an organism is to a human apparently the more likey eating it will help cancer to develop.

Humans are also less likely to share diseases with fish than mammals.  So it might be better not to have such a reservoir of potential disease in the presence of humans in a closed loop environment.

And fish are more efficient I think.

I would have small production with artificial lights in the hab at whatever suits a human.

A small shirt sleeve greenhouse at pressure suitable for humans might be provided at first, would be provided later, to provide a "Park" experience and to grow specialized produce.

I would have ice water bags for plankton at the minimum pressure to satisfy the needs of a rugged organism(s).  Maybe just a few mb above ambient if possible, and ice water.

I would have primary large greenhouses at the minimum possible for vascular plants.  Don't know what that is, but maybe hope for the range of 20-70 mb.  My reasoning is that robots will likely be sophisticated enough to do gardening by then if guided remotely by humans, and in some cases humans then could also have the counterpressure suits to enter the greenhouses when necessary.  They are going to have to have them to go outside anyway.

For this I would use the multi-layer process I have previoiusly  mentioned because if a pressure of 50 mb would work for a bulk crop, then the bulk of metal and plastic and glass needed could be minimized.
But to find such a crop, and create a variety tuned to such a habitat may be a trick. 

I would deninitely consider incorporating a bulk of water into the interior of such a device either open or contained, to moderate the temperature swings.  It could also be suitable for aquaculture of some kind.

If simply a balloon with water and light soil in it's bottom, I had considered Cattails, but they are seasonal, and I don't think they grow at high altitudes for some reason.  Don't know if it is pressure related, if so, then they are out.

But they would propigate by roots or sex, and could be left relatively untended until harvested.  It may seem "What good are they?".  Well, parts are edible, and the fiber would be useful, and by that time I am guessiing that their will be a process to break down the non-edible parts into sugar or some other hydrocarbon, and from that you could grow yeast, or you could grow mushrooms on the left over organic matter.

It's a first try.

What I would be looking for is something that is low maintenance, and maybe not the most prime crop but able to produce a bulk of organic matter from sunlight and provided chemestry and pressure.

I have to guess there will be something that fits the bill.  Maybe simply some kind of rugged grass or water reed.

Maybe elodea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elodea

I have seen no evidence that it can be eaten, or that people would want to eat it, but it produces Oxygen quite well I think, and being completely submerged, should be unaffected by large temperature swings, as long as the average temperature of the water is similar to a North American lake.  I presume that the product would be Oxygen, water recycling, and the plant matter which I presume in the future could be broken down to sugar.  A low maintenance crop I hope.

In that case a Robot Boat, or a Boat-Suit could be used to tend the "Crop".

Maybe I am thinking of a hay field.  Instead of cows, convert it to sugar and make fuel or yeast or both, or grow mushrooms.

I am not saying you could not grow a vegtible crop.  Cattails actually would sort of be, if you could do it.  But I am looking for something that can produce in bulk once it is set up, and does not require a lot of person power to run day to day.

At the very least if you wanted to resort to growing carp in another more pressurized water tank, you would have food for them.
Goldfish=Carp
http://www.ehow.com/facts_5949891_kind- … ants_.html

It is presumed that mostly being a vegitarian on Mars is good, but if you do have a way to mass produce fish food, perhaps a bit of fish now and then would not be that bad a thing.

Unlike cows, fish will not burn up energy maintaining body heat.  I presume that being cold blooded, they need perhaps 1/3 the food as a mammal to exist.

I hadn't thought about it before, but a crop submerged in water also may have some additional radiation protection.

One deviation I have been thinking about is how hard it might be to manufacture Flourescent lamps.

For instance if beads of the necessary materials were hard landed, could something like a 3D printer build them?

If so, then you need solar cells or a nuclear reactor to power them, but the total quantity of glass and metal might be small relative to building a greenhouse.

This presumes that you could build an underground place to put the bulbs, and grow food that way.  What the material would be to build the structures I cannot say, but perhaps in lava tubes where sections have been walled off with a created frozen berm of soil and water?

Anyway, I just thought I would throw it into the mix.  It would be to grow certain things, most likely not bulk foods, or to replace greenhouse use where plants would prosper in them.

Then there are the mushrooms you guys hate to have me speak of, but if you can manufacture plastics and Oxygen, then you can create oils and Oxygen and feed them to Mushrooms.

I don't see this as this or that, but some of this and some of that.

Having local resources for metal frames, Glass, and plastics will open up lots of options, but what about a start?

I think I would look into the possibility that rather than finished products landed or extraction of minerals, we could consider hard landing basic processed materials, perhaps bags of beeds of materials?

Starting humble, and to achieve a quick result, I would consider bags of plastic hollow beeds which could survive a hard impact.  If it were me my first effort would then be to collect and clean those beeds, and using machinery construct a bag for water a bag of water of sufficent size would perhaps fend off the formation of ice overnight.  I would perhaps make that bag of a prefered material for that purpose, and put a tarp over it which would serve the purpose of a blanket, and to shield out the UV.  Apply a minimum pressurization into it, and perhaps grow a useful plankton in it.

This is not because I don't want greenhouses, but because it would be a fast achievement which might provide some type of food, some type of water recycling/purification for a initial crew of people.  Other food provided could be hard landed as well, from Earth, perhaps freeze dried whatever.  Then hopefully they would be able to develop a local resource for Glass, Metal or Plastics.   Or ideally all three.

Having a food source from simple bags of water, would reduce the size of greenhouse needed, for survival at first, but would not prevent building very big ones eventually.  I also suggest that initially very small greenhouses might be built.  Actually just large bottles for a batch production.  There are perhaps some plants that are rugged that would mostly grow on their own once planted in such terrariums.
Again this is a concept for initial startup, not the eventual better method with greenhouses that people can be in.

Very informative.

In the end I would not care how the greenhouses were constructed, just that they were cost effective and functional.

I will argue my side further however, just for kicks and to keep activity alive at this site.

I am sure that structure will be determined in large part by materials available.

Perhaps you have another solution, but I am presuming that your glass panes will be supported by a foundation structure of metal?

In what I have proposed if metal (Or some other material) I might suggest something like the following:

https://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=e … d=0CD0QsAQ

A balloon structure inside aided by such a corset structure, so that the bulges are small, but many.
Of course that metal mesh will have to be made in such a way that it does not cut the balloon.
While only some of the light will get in, plants will do OK with 1/10 of normal Earth light, but more is better.
The mesh itself would collect thermal energy, and I suppose it would be very nice if it would have some kind of solar cell micro-structure on its outside to collect some electrical energy, but that would be an accessory not necessary.

That structure by itself would be vulnerable to UV, Abrasion, and thermal fluctuations, and so on, so I propose to put tiles, or scales on the outside of some hard material, perhaps glass.  On the inner side of the "Glass" could be a UV protectant coating.

Ideally the tiles would be fastened mechanically or magnetically or some of each, and would have the best contour to push in the tiny bulges of the balloon pressure bag held by the corset mesh.

The corset could be formed in complex shapes, and if steel for instance could be welded.  Some other materials could be joined into a frame that way as well, if it is not possible to have steel or iron.

None of the components would last forever, but I presume that the corset would be the most durable.

The pressure retaining bag could be patched relatively easy, if small leaks or even tears occurred

The protective tiles, shingles, scales could be replaced with relative ease (I hope), and could be in stock part for replacements.  If of a good glass/metal structure, they should be rather durable.

But I have nothing against your more conventional greenhouse plans.

GWJohnson,

What I am thinking is multi-layer like skin.

A mesh to be the foundation of the skin structure.
Glass shingles, scales, or feathers if you like to attach to the mesh.  They would not form a pressure shell, but would protect the structure from abrasion, UV light, and would tend to hold in heat.  Because they would not have to hold pressure, their quality could be much less rugged, however it might be advisable to have a plastic coating on the underside so that if they shatter, they would not shed shards of sharp glass as much.  A further advantage is that they would be free to expand and contract with fluctuations in temperature without compressing and pulling at joins that you would have with a standard multipane glaze.  They could be much thinner, since they would not hold pressure.

Inside of the Mesh enclosure could be a balloon, partially held unruptured by the mesh.  Here again the plastic balloon would be relieved of some tasks, as it would not have to endure UV, it would not have to be the entire method of pressurization (It would have help from the mesh enclosure).  It would also be warmer.  So your choice of plastics would perhaps be easier to obtain.  Also the thickness of the balloon could be reduced.

Should you then have open water, or bags of water in the interior, then you could further buffer the temperature swings.

This is much like a living organism.  It's skin is multi-layered, and it has bulk in it's interior to moderate temperature swings.

In this case also nature indicates that a larger size would also help with temperature swings, where a larger volume would have a proportionally smaller amount of "Skin".

Anyway I would try to incorporate this into your mushroom house, or any other type of "Greenhouse".

Would you have a link to that specific article?

I support the idea.  I am wondering if components could be built with Asphalt.  If kept reasonably cold, Asphalt might do.  Cold is availible on Mars.

I am also wondering, if you then have need to make glass to construct these things, could you also consider building a fairly conventional multi-paned dome of glass in the sunward directions, and of whatever elsewise.

I would not expect to pressurize the dome, just use it like scales on a reptile, to keep the harshness out of the interior.  Keep most of the UV out, keep heat in, keep out the abrasive wind blown dust.

Then put in a low pressure plastic balloon, to conain a further improved environment.  A partial pressure suitable to plants, but perhaps not enough for humans.  A balloon with a fresh water pond in it.  No ice this time open water inside of a balloon inside of a glass dome.

Then the requirments on the balloon would be reduced.  Less pressure, temperature lows modified, UV mostly excluded.

Further if it is a pond, it will hold heat at night.  Condensation would be collected for use so it would provide that resource.  I am also thinking of having a "Boat" in the pond.  Either a robot, or a special pressure suit.  The pond would be shallow, so that a robot or human arm could reach the bottom and "Cultivate" whatever you are growing.

I did a little research, and tried to make a variety of cattail fit, but I think they might not do good at low pressures, but I am not certain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typha_latifolia
http://www.cattails.info/Types_of_cattail.html

I am not saying don't make your mushroom houses, make them.  But if you then know how to make glass, think of this other thing as well.  I am thinking that it is just possible that some cold water plant from the Arctic or northern temperate areas of the Earth could be domesticated, and then you would be able to produce a bulk product with a less modified environment.

You did say that things were quiet here, so I thought I would give you some food for thought.

One factor I did not notice mentioned would be body size.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ … opher.html
Smaller needs, smaller ship.

At some point however, the existing human brain would be too large for a smaller body.  Perhaps made more efficient?  Then it might be less adaptive.
A cyborg, with cybernetic brain augmentation?

I also do prefer not to get too deviated from what we know to be human though.  Your crew numbers, could be small, with robots that could be deactivated when not needed.

Another thing would be virtual reality.  If I were a crew member, and wanted a rich life, perhaps some of the time I would be actually in the reality of the ships environment which might be spartan, but other times, I would be in virtual reality, getting the mental stimulation that would keep me mentally healthy.

What about terrorists, and start-up costs?

I mostly agree with RobertDyck.

But I will roll it out my own way.

I recall that Josh suggested that Mars may have 100-1000 mb of resources that could be vaporized to thicken an atmosphere.  I am guessing that that will be mostly CO2.

@1000, it would be approximately as greenhoused as the Earth would be at 500 mb.  There is the matter of also using special greenhouse gasses, and that could make it warmer than otherwise if they were maintained.

@100 it would be possible to have a biosphere, but it would be subject to a lot of cold conditions at night and during the winter.  A challenge to life.

So, unless some unusual discovery or new method is found it is gong to be on the average significantly colder than Earth even if terraformed.

This suggests high latitude Earth trees if any trees, or alpine trees.

So tropical is unlikely without the unusual use of super greenhouse gasses. 

Tropical or sub tropical would be nice, but then you have the problem of the dominance of CO2, and lack of Oxygen.  In time, I suppose, and eventually a conversion could happen, but that will be a lot of time.

I will go back to a different vision.

I would say the options are dominantly non-fluvial, and fluvial conditions.

Mars is non-fluvial now and cannot even keep it's CO2 atmosphere fully inflated.  So getting that fully inflated would be an early objective.  An identified CO2 content in the Southern polar ice cap would be sufficient to inflate the atmosphere to 11 mb.  That level would allow for snowfalls, and temporary melt streams in places.

That coupled with permafrost in the ground might suggest that cold water could pool in the surface soil and resist evaporation for a short time, and might support the watering of high latitude type trees from Earth.  But other challenges would keep the trees from making it.

I would say obviously that this would be the beginning of a transition to fluvial.  Once the transition to fluvial began and if it progressed, I would divide teraform classifications into an Evaporative Fluvial, and Pooling Fluvial.

In an evaporative fluvial situation the ice in the northern hemisphere would tend to migrate to the southern hemisphere in the southern winter, and tend not to re-evaporate in the southern summer, because although there would be some melting of stray snowfalls at low latitudes on Mars, in the southern summer the ice deposites  would tend to reflect sunlight back into space.  So the southern ice cap would grow and the northern one shrink.

This would continue unless significant ice melt and large rivers were to emerge from the southern ice cap during summer, and that would happen only if the planet were warmed even more.  Or using space mirrors to purposely melt the southern ice cap.

The reason I claim this is that most evaporation in that situation would be sublimation, and the northern ice cap being lower in elevation would experience a stronger greenhouse effect, but would still be prone to the evaporation of ice to atmospheric water vapors.

The plains of the the north would be favored for simple rugged life because even under those conditions the northern plains would be watered with snow packs in the winter.  If the summers were warm enough to partially melt them before they evaporated/sublimated, then any thawed ground above the permafrost would help to retain water for a time.  So, trees could be watered, but the conditions would likely be too harsh for them otherwise.  But perhaps high arctic tundra of a sort would be possible over wide areas.
Lichens?  The radiation flux might be moderated somewhat by then.

The Mariner Rift Valley would likely be arid, and unfavorable to life.

If this was maintained, and the atmosphere developed significant Oxygen and an Ozone layer, then perhaps some type of trees on the northern plains.

If the atmosphere were first inflated to a greater value, then I believe that sublimation would no longer be the dominant form of evaporation, and the northern plains would begin to flood with ice bound pools, that might become salty, that would depend on how much salt would leach out of the soils into the waters of the pools.

They would most efficiently accumulate water and retain it if most of the year the surface of the ice was frozen, but could melt at the peak warming times of the year, so that water pooling on the surface of the ice would bend and crack it.  Once cracked, the melt water would flow downward into the cracks, inflating the ice.  Any local streams of meltwater from snow packs around the pools would also contribute.  This process would take energy into the lake, where it would be gaurded by the insulating layer of ice.

Solar energy can also pass through such ice and warm the waters in the summer, but the effect will not be as strong as it is here on Earth in Antarctic dry valley lakes.

If the atmospheric pressure were to rise to the degree that the southern ice cap could melt significantly in it's summers, then strong river systems would form in the southern hemisphere, with fresh water lakes, and finally at lower latitudes, salt lakes.  This would begin to reverse the polarity of the water condensation, and so water evaporating from those lakes might begin to accumulate as condensate in the northern hemisphere, inflating a ocean in the northern hemisphere.

That is where I would have my preference to stop the process if possible.

As I see it an ideal would be a northern ocean with salt in it with an ice covering that only ruptures for a few weeks in the summer due to melt water pooling on it.

In Antarctica, I believe that if you drill a hole in such a body of water, Oxygen bubbles out.  I suspect that this is because melt water brings CO2 into the lake and photo organisms using light through the ice extract Oxygen from it.

To me this indicates that the mixture of dissolved gasses in the water of such a lake/Ocean can be different than that of the atmosphere.  So, you could extract Nitrogen from the atmosphere and inject it into the ocean and so perhaps make it more favorable to an expanded list of life forms.  It is my intention that this ocean would be used to convert from a CO2 atmosphere to a more Oxygen dominated one.  (Which would tend to be colder).

Perhaps some open water could be tolerated, but too much would poison the water with CO2, and would allow the Nitrogen to pass back into the atmosphere.

An ocean like that could serve as a carbon dump where organic materials would deposit to the bottom of it.  Antarctic lakes tend to have low Oxygen in the bottom waters, and they tend to be warm maybe 20 degrees C.  This might produce Methane, but organisms in the lake might digest that when it encounters Oxygen.

The Ocean if it inflated enough might flood the Mariner rift valley, and that could have some open water, being isolated from the other waters where you would want an elevated Nitrogen and Oxygen level.

Perhaps you could have underwater trees there.  But that would require genetic engineering, and their leaf canopy would have to be just under the surface of the water.  It would be frost free, and perhaps a source of wood.  But It would really require some skills to modify trees for that.

So, with a Oxygen dominated atmosphere, and southern summers that are almost twice as long, and if at some locations the summer could have warm enough temperatures, and if the trees could tolerate low Nitrogen levels (Unless more is created/obtained), you might look for forests of high latitude trees in places in the southern hemisphere at mid latitudes.  An of course in sheltered places at other locations.

I believe that trees need at least a few days at about 50 degrees F.   But I did see an article claiming that there were some alpine trees that could tolerate a lesser situation for temperature.  That was said to be on a mountain in Mexico. 

Other vascular plants might endure better.  Perhaps annuals in low Arctic and conditions resembling high latitudes on Earth.

Done.

You could be correct.  But I don't expect much serious research into the idea until the SpaceX methods have demonstrated a good certainty of reliability if ever.

Tropical mountains would be more favorable, if they also had an industrial infrastructure not too far away.  There would be less seasonal variability.  But even in North America,
seasonally, a system could do normal method launches in the bad seasons, and be able to lift more during favorable seasonality on the mountain pad.

There is also the leeward side of mountains/plateau's there there would be an improvement for precipitation.  And there are weather forecasts also, which should be getting better over time.

My argument would continue with the notion that Papua/New Ginnie would be a good location for launches due to elevation and proximity to the equator.  However other local nations might have a greater industrial infrastructure for initiating a serviced rocket with payload with a partial fueling.

Winds?  Yes, that is an issue.  However I have already addressed the general problem with seasons, precipitation, and so on.  I would be thinking of a location at 10,000 feet if possible actually, but lower if necessary.  I would also note that higher winds (If they happen) would be partially offset by lower air density.

Yes, 100,000 feet testing would be useful, but eventually if Mars is teraformed, it will have a denser atmosphere.  The testing for something like that would simply occur as a consequence of operating a "Hop" launch pad.

But I think we both agree that economics would rule in the end.  A yes/no answer does not apply.  Maybe seems more appropriate to me.  The technological conditions of the future will likely change, but SpaceX's methods suggest that hopping might get a bigger payload to orbit, or allow for a smaller rocket for the same payload.