New Mars Forums

Well I appreciate your reply and am intimidated also.  (By your credentials)  I had to read twice.  It seemed that you were a bit harsh at first which is uncharacteristic of you, but on the second reading I was more comfortable.

I agree that for Mars the points you have made are very strong.  MCP suits would be a very good choice for early and later generalized work.

But I will argue my case for using what I proposed on worlds that are not as Earth like as Mars first, and then I will try to make a weaker case for the use of it on Mars.

As for evaporation cooling on dry worlds, that would be something to want to avoid I think.

For instance the Moon.  Although you could get water from the poles, or perhaps in some other way, you would not want to squander it, except for special cases where what I propose as a suit simply will not do.

I agree I don't like the classic bag suits.

I would not actually like to begin the use of what I propose on either the Moon or Mars, because of gravitation, and the fact that such a device would be heavy, requiring strong motors to manipulate. Balance beam concepts would reduce the amount of lifting force required however, if possible to implement.

I do like it to begin with on the international space station, or a small world like Phobos.  It largely allows the recycling of consumables.

If you see space walks with bag suits on the in Earth obit, they are for limited duration, are dangerous, and require a large degree of autonomous life support.

But we do see people in bag suits, attached to robotic arms doing tasks.

And without MCP suits, I guess it still makes better sense than what I propose because most of the tasks are one of a kind with scientific equipment.  I am not saying that some of it could not be done with what I propose, but not enough of it can be yet.

Supposing it were developed (Existed) and you wanted to set up some kind of a materials processing facility at a location in a vacuum environment.  Perhaps Moon or asteroid materials in a "L" location.  You have a choice of bringing the materials into a large pressurized "Factory" or having a open vacuum factory.

If on the outside of your factory you had "Capsules" anchored on rails or robotic arms, then you can present the capsule to a work point.  The human then uses whatever arms he/she has to manipulate a object to achieve a purpose.  The capsule has far more consumable resources available than a person in a space suit.  For instance they have electrical power from the mother object.  They may have a Oxygen line in some cases, or be able to refill at certain locations.  As for heat, a larger object will suffer less severe consequences than a person in a suit from thermal variations.  Also having electrical power in relative abundance, the capsule could be heated by it when cold.  Otherwise it could be quite reflective so as not to heat up too much in the sunlight.

CO2 could be recaptured and returned to the mother object for reprocessing.

Such an environment might be suitable for trying the method.  Radiation will be a problem.  But suppose the capsule weremade of Aluminum, and lined with Paraffin wax?  That might help, and there could also be provision for a shielded garage which may or may not be practical.  A person in a autonomous space suit would be even more at risk however they might resort to a garage and airlock escape from radiation storms, but would not have all that much protection from typical radiation.

Impacting objects could be an issue.  If someone is in a suit, I think chances are they are dead in such an event, but perhaps this is also a case where the MCP suit gives a better chance of survival than a bag suit.  A capsule offers a possible improvement however for that problem.

Phobos/Demos:

This thread is about Phobos though, and so I will stop there next.  I saw an opportunity to find a better environment on tiny worlds for this, and Phobos or Demos seem to be the most local of opportunities.

There is the question of resources.  The moons may not be suitable if they are truly lacking of critical ones.  Then it would be necessary to go to the asteroid belt to do this thing.  That seem unattainable at this point without first establishing a starting point nearer to Earth.  But the future belongs to the people who will be there.  It will almost certainly be different from what we have now.

Anyway, for a world like Phobos, the mother device would be mobile on the surface of the object, and would have child devices "Capsules" below it.

They also would draw electrical power from the mother device, and would very likely have hoses supplying Oxygen from it and have a return line for CO2.
Being below the mother device, they would be in a modified environment.  It would have significant protection from radiation, be more thermally constant, and have the possibility of overhead lighting from the mother ship, so they would not be dependent on sunlight for vision.  If reasonable, additional protection could be added by placing flexible stips of skirting around the perimeter of the mother device almost down to the ground level.  But that would be a preferred add on, not a necessity.

Presuming that the mother device could gather soil and rocks, and could convert those into useful objects, the people in the capsules could assemble those components into a larger structure on Phobos, perhaps a strip of solar panels with two or more power buses.  The task would be redundant.  The mother device moving forward at a very slow speed could extract power from the power buses for the whole operation.  There would be a large degree of protection from impacting objects.

The Capsule/Suit:

I feel that I may need to explain better what I am saying when I say the person in the capsule would be in a bag suit.  The part of the body and head inside of the capsule would perhaps be inside of a minimal suit.  It would not normally be pressurized relative to the pressure of the capsule, and would be cooled by a air pump/cooling fan if needed exchanging air between the suit and the capsule.  In fact, if desired the heaters in the capsule would be turned off to make the interior cool/cold, and the bag suit might serve to keep the person more comfortably warm.

Check valves would protect the human from sudden decompression of the capsule.  (If maintained properly).

As for the arm projected outside of an arm port, that arm/glove bag would only be pressurized during the insertion of the arm or the extraction of the arm.  When the arm was pulled back into the capsule, the arm port door could be closed, but the arm/glove bag would add protection from capsule decompression if the port door did not seal properly.

To insert, first the suit is put on, emergency bag suit and helmet for the most of the body, and MCP method for the arm.  After checking that the glove had maintained pressure properly, the port door would be opened.  If depressurization happened at this point from a glove failure, the person is already in a full emergency suit that should allow them to survive the event.  The arm is inserted, and a fixture on the upper arm docks with the port opening sealing it.  Then the arm/glove has the air pumped out of it and into the capsule.  The person may be able to put both arms out, and then after the depressurization of the arm/glove, may take off the glove(s).

My preference however would be to put one dominant arm out, and for the other arm have a hard arm that the other arm could be inserted into, that having a mechanical method for the hand and arm to open and close a exterior mechanical hand, perhaps as simple as a clamp, or perhaps more sophisticated.  It would be modeled off of very deep sea diving suits.

The intent would be to use that hand to hold objects to be worked on by the other hand.  Most people are right handed, so in many cases the arm/glove hand would be the right hand, and the hard suit arm would be the left one.  It would be desired that the person could extract their left hand and arm from that apparatus at any time desired.

They could operate a keyboard.  They also may be able to eliminate waste without extracting the right arm from the process, but that would be tricky business.  With other suits you just have to go in your pants.  However it would not be that much of a problem to remove the right arm from the Arm/bag suit, if you had to go #2.  I presume that #1 can be handled that way or perhaps with some type of elaborate duct work device.  I would like to suppose the person would extract both of their arms every two hours, and take care of eating, and eliminating waste, and then go back to work.  A coffee break so to speak.

The MPC arm may or may not get too uncomfortable under air pressurization, so I have suggested a small vacuum chamber in the capsule to relieve that problem as desired.
It would be tied to the system that pulls the air out of the arm/glove device.  Neither one would be intended to be vented to space vacuum.

Mars:

I did mention Mars briefly, said that it is what I originally thought this up for.  It has less potential there, other solutions may often be better.

However I will make a special case for working on a pipeline or even more a power line.  Those being on the ground, would allow this to be rather simple.  You would be in a wheeled mobile device, and your arm ports would be on the bottom within reach of the ground (That's easy to say).  It would likely need some type of elevation control at least for rough ground.  It could roll up to the habitat when it's tour of duty was done, and could dock with it and allow the person to be extracted into the habitat.  Or the person might be able to use the emergency pressure suit to make the exchange, but that would be for "emergencies".

On Mars the mother device and child device method will be less successful  You could have a large cart with large solar arrays on it, but then it would make things more clumsy.

I do offer an improvement over other methods for the case of chemical contamination.  I do know that for the MCP suit coveralls are proposed to help control that problem.

But if the person in this apparatus is never actually outside and had not either taken of their glove to touch objects, and if a successful docking to the habitat without resort to the emergency suit method was done, then the contamination problem would be very low.  Granted, the air lock might have some residue on it,

Anyway, presuming you have actually read this very long reply, I have nothing but good intentions in doing this.  Not trying to rock the boat. 

I do understand that what will actually be done is much less than what could be done, but there are far more fantastic ideas floating around this site I think.

But maybe it is an honor to even be noticed

I suppose I could add a few things.

You could take you bag glove off and then touch things with just your counterpressure protected fingers.  That will reduce the amount of safety.

I also favor various configurations.  Usually people use one hand to grip and object and another to work tools and parts.

So, I actually think the best mode would be to have only one arm out, and to have the other inside manipulating a mechanical arm.  That may or my not involve electric power.  It could be strictly mechanical with the inside arm manipulating a mechanical gripper arm outside.  This then leaves the person free to do keyboarding on the inside, and to perhaps eat, and if needed attend to body functions, even though that will be a bit hard.

You could also have three arms or four.  A mechanical vice arm.  A voice operated motorized arm.  1 or two actual protected human arms projecting outside.

And I did actually think this thing up with Mars itself in mind.  However the gravity field of Mars being much stronger, it will be harder to do.

Another feature is that if for some reason you wanted to pressurize the box with outside gasses on Mars, you could the person would be in a suit.  This would add significant danger, and would make eating a problem, but a well designed suit might allow you to drop them and do #1 or #2 even in that case.  I don't know why you would want to do it except then the box is a airlock, you are already in your suit with oxygen, you can just unhook, and depressurize the box, open a single door, and go outside if there is a reason.

So, it could have many modes of operation.

For one thing I think it could be good for constructing solar panel arrays, since for it to operate you would have to have a cart with a lift anyway.

It could also be good for installing and repairing pipelines on the ground, and power lines which might also be on the ground.

It would reduce slip and fall injuries, and would allow EVA's to be longer with some added comfort and reduced use of airlocks on your main hab.

But the potential for crush injuries would be a safety issue that would have the be well though out.

How do you rescue a person who has had their projecting arm crushed?  How do you prevent it from happening at all?

I have a deep respect for all your opinions.  If we were in power and had to make a choice now for a mission now. I would step back and not argue with you at all.

But it is a characteristic of "Advanced" animals/humans to play.  So, I am playing.

http://www.universetoday.com/114871/mak … on-phobos/

They make an argument that NASA is sort of heading in such a direction anyway.  I share your views that this might not have been the correct path, but it is the investment they have made.  If possible, it would be good to utilize what they can provide (If it helps).

Phobos may be hydrated down deeper, but the surface is not so at all.  As Antius has said, there is likely ejected materials from Mars mixed in with the surface of Phobos.

I state that I think that Phobos should have at least one unpersoned probe go to it before a human mission.  If such a probe can reasonably determine it's probable potential and it is a negative report then Phobos can be eliminated completely from the competition.  If samples can be returned then some information from Mars would also be gained I think.

If somehow there would be a positive report, then it is not unreasonable to ask if Phobos can be considered as part of a plan.

There are four reasonable contenders for human expansion into space I think.  One has to exist, that is Earth to orbit, which we have and it seems SpaceX might make better.

Subsidiary plans are Moon and/or small asteroid capture to Earth orbit, Mars, Phobos and/or Demos.

NASA is not going to the Moon in any significant way, but says it will try to capture a small rock and visit it with humans.  Some companies say they want to do similar,but perhaps with automation.

Japan wants to go to the Moon it seems, or at least someone in Japan wants that.

Many of us would like to see an experiment with a centrifuge in orbit on animals and humans.  I suggest Mars level gravitation.

The some want to make a pseudo Star Treck Enterprise ship with a centrifuge process.

Some want to go to the Asteroid belt, and some want to establish a presence on Mars, or at least have humans visit it.

Some do not want humans to set foot on Mars for contamination reasons.

Some who it does not profit to work with simply want the human race stay here and serve them as servants.

Some who want to find life on Mars are simply interested, some want to dispute the foundations of religion.  (Part of their plan to be god and be served I think).

Various pressures exist most of them favor some kind of expansion into space.  Some will achieve some of these things regardless of what we want or do.  So it is perhaps worth considering if most of these desires can be connected into a greater plan that most might accept.

If someone goes to Mars, fine.  But until then, I suggest thinking about the possibility of a centrifuge device that would work in both microgravity and on the surface of small objects such as Phobos or a small asteroid.

I suggest low Earth orbit, the saucer plan from the Trekkies @ .38 gee.

Perhaps Space X can lower prices, or perhaps small asteroids are captured by then.  Or maybe Japan or others are on the Moon by then.  Resources to build it from that?

You want the data for centrifuges anyway for humans.  And you also want to confirm that Mars gravity is enough anyway.

If Phobos is a valuable resource, and if the saucer technology is done in low Earth orbit, then how would you get it to Phobos?  It has been suggested ion thrusters, which makes sense.  However if it is saucer shaped can you also consider aerocapture to Mars orbit to help?

If the saucer were on the Mars facing side of Phobos, it would already have some radiation protection from two directions.  In the beginning of habitation small storm shelters could be lined with soil from the outside to supplement this.  Later the whole top surface could be protected in a similar fashion, and of course Phobos would offer protection to the underside.

Then there is the question of EVA's.  A suit designed to be autonomous with it's own resources, is quite a challenge.  I prefer a tethered approach.

The saucer in low Earth orbit would allow this and would allow resources from small captured asteroids or the Moon or from Earth to be manipulated.  Mostly all of this is upside.  However there would be a potential for an increase of crushing crushing events, but safety measures should be able to address those dangers.

Similarly, the underside of such a saucer on Phobos would provide a sheltered and tethered EVA potential.

Manipulation of materials could be done by robot arms, and suited humans and a combination of both.

I suggest that a long term suit be contemplated, that a person could be in for perhaps a week at a time.  This would be a box on a manipulator arm, with some emergency supplies in the case where the tethered resource supplies (Hoses wires) failed.

I suggest a combination arm method where at the upper arms would be a triple seal.  A simple representation of that would be you are in a bag suit, but your arms are in counterpressure apparatus.  Around the transition point on the upper arms you have a cork stopper (This is for visualization only, I would expect something much more sophisticated).

Your long term suit is a box on a robot arm, it has ports for the arms that the "Corks" can be pushed into for a seal.  So your arms (Or I prefer your best arm only) are outside of the box.  But this is not so stupid if you also put a bag suit for the arms on the outside also joined.  So your arms are in a pressurized bag suit and also inside of counterpressure suiting for the arm.  Then unfortunately your circulation will be cut off if you don't depressurize the arm bags.  So you do depressurize them  You pump the air from these arm bags into the box you are in.  Now you have your counterpressure protected arms in a vacuum. 

There is an inconvenience involved, certainly you now have both the counterpressure arm covering and the depressurized bags around the arms, to impede your sense of touch and your grip.  But you are not fighting to clench your hands against the pressure of a bag suit. During work with your arm(s) deployed, you are in the bag suit protected by it, and you are also having your arms protected by the counterpressure measures.  You are also protected by the box and the bag arm/gloves.  So you have double pressure protection.

Arm retraction:

In an emergency it might be possible to pull the cork out pull your arm into the box, if the cork were designed well.  Then you would have to hope the arm/bag did not burst from sudden pressurization.  However the ports that you put your arm through could also have hinged spring loaded doors that would shut.  I even if the box depressurized, you would still be in your hybrid bag suit and it might keep you alive.

But for normal arm retraction you would simply repressurize the arm bags, and pull your arm(s) out, and the port doors would spring shut.  (The arm/glove bags should still protect the pressurization of the box even if the doors fail.

So, you have retracted because you want to eat something or preform a body function, or go to sleep or you don't have a useful task to preform "Outside".  Before you compromise your hybrid suit, you latch the port doors down.

Then you are inside, but unless you doff your arm counterpressure part of the suit pretty soon your circulation will be cut off.  So you have one or two vacuum chambers that you can insert one or more of your arms into (Inside of the box), on a periodic basis, you do your body function, or eat, or take a break or you take your whole suit off for the night and get some sleep until the next work period.

And that is I think how humans could make it in such environments, and do useful work and have significant protection from harm.  Obviously after a week the person should be rotated back to the saucer and do centrifuge therapy.

I think I did OK

The initial query was should Phobos come before Mars.

The surface of Phobos appears to be dry.  Specualtion has it that there could be ice inside.

Any moving material from Phobos to another location would likely involve rocket engines which need fuel. 

Putting the soil into a Bin, and transporting the bin would involve some diffaculty.  For instance if you stand on it with a shovel, how well is that going to work?

However create a base on it of the structure that has been  previously proposed.  It is anchored by gravitation due to it's mass.  It provides humans with Earth like protections inside, and and improved environment under it.  Under the bottom where the four wheels could be.

If robotic arms would then dig soil, they would be attached to the bottom of the device and could do their work.  Perhaps a clam shell type shovel on a robot arm.

If humans deploy outside under the device but above the surface of Phobos, actually perhaps they are attached to a robot arm, like the Canada arm, and also have electric, Oxygen, and so on consumbles supplied to them through flexible wires/hoses.  Perhaps the CO2 can be recycled.

What might the humans be doing there since a robot arm makes more sense for digging?

They might be constructing a long array of solar cells.  The base rolls forward.  The arm digs dirt.  The dirt is processed.  Solar cells made, power busses made.  The human goes outside in a suit on a boom, and assembles an extension of the solar cell array with power busses, so that the base can draw power from the solar array.  Eventually Phobos is a big solar power supply.

It is possible that some of the dug dirt will give sufficient Hydrogen when heated to supply water for the humans.  It is less likely that it would provide large amounts for fuels.

Eventually if the solar power system did become built, and there was ice inside of Phobos, it could be reached.

It's not a bad plan.

Easier to get to than Mars, but would likely make Mars accessible eventually, while allowing the search for life on Mars to continue while the infrastructure of Phobos was being built up.

Might be more bite sized than our Moon actually.  Providing similar resources, while allowing it to be a base for scientific research of Mars.  Also samples from Mars are there.

A convergence of space interests is possible with Phobos.  Money, Science, protect Mars from contamination.  Might be able to get some conllection of entities to go for it.  Not so much for other schemes I think.

Just me, but I think for having off Earth significant mass to deal with are;  1) Moon, 2) Mars, 3) Phobos and/or Demos, 4) Asteroid belt.

As silly as my post seemed, I actually was serious.  I think a mobile giant robot of that sort, a mobile base would be the thing for a small body like that.

If it's legs kept it a few feet above the surface, then it's robitic arms/scoops could work with devices on the surface, and also scoop up mass into the base.  Also teathered humans in suits could work underneith it, be protected from most of the radiation by being between the mobile base, and Phobos, and the get inside and have the artificial gravitation. 

If the issue of water were solved, then you would have security for humans in space, mass accessible to make machines from, and a rather small gravity well to transport manufactured materials out of, to other locations in the solar system, including Mars.

Well, my words come at a low price.  I guess you get what you pay for.

I seem to recall that Elon Musk might think that a dome with water in it, water mined was a plan.  (My best memory of a vague article).

So, he must not be thinking equator.

Anyway I hope someone like him is able to bend the rules, and get more to Mars cheaper.  Then maybe not everyone on Mars has to start off as a ice age Morlock.  There can be the Eloy

Seriously.  I prefer a better plan than what I can make.

As groups humans tend to be insane and stupid, with occasional lucid moments.  So I have a need to agree with you.  If we ever catch the human race in a lucid moment, where they will contribute to and not damage a plan to go to Mars, it should be exploited.  But such a lucid moment may not have much duration.  And then as you have said the people on Mars will be on their own, or even worse have to fight off idiotic meddling from a Earth culture that has again lapsed into stupidity.

That is my opinion.  That is why I try to go for the less glorious and less tra-la-la concepts of how humans can take root on Mars.

I don't trust ice or rock not to fall on my head, but I have proposed a plan where they can.  Anyway, in Antarctica they do build tunnels that are somewhat stable over a lifetime or part of a lifetime.  They usually put in supports, but Earth has 1 gee of gravitational force, Mars has 1/3. (More or less).  Any initial habitation of Mars will be a nasty gamble.  But maybe we can have odds on our side anyway. 

So, If you have a tunnel system, to some extent, the pressurization of it may act against the warping of it, the deformation of the ice. 

Rocks.  they exist on Mars obviously. on the surface and perhaps at the bedrock level under the ice.  If your floor of habitation is bedrock and you can find rocks to make walls with then you have bettered your situation.  Now if you can make tar and mineral wool and so a analog of tar paper, can you make a roof on top of your rock walls?  Above that perhaps an ice roof.  Maybe you can give that ice roof some resistance from deformation by applying a frozen layer of mineral wool and frozen water, maybe.  An arch formation may not hurt your purpose.

Anyway Ice, nuclear reactors, tar, mineral wool, and of course in the summer as you may be capable of, solar driven biological processes, solar driven power to expand your powers, and we might hope, the ability to master glass, metals, and plastics.

That's my best offer.  If you have a better one, then good.  I will praise you.

When I got out of high school, I got a job working in a  hematite processing plant.  I never worked in a pit.  Then I quit and went to two years of school, and worked in a Taconite plant for 10.5 years at some type of technical level.  I have real experience.  Not all of it but parts of it.

Pretty cool that hematite place.  It was the precursor for tacnite processing.  I also worked where they developed the technology for taconite.  But I was not the inventor of any of it.  I consider that I am rather priveleged however.  Too bad I can't spell real good.   I am a bit bent just now, but I will try to behave.

However, I am certainly not the end of knowledge of the subject.

That's a pretty little girl in the pretty picture that you provided.  I hope she does not end her life with a red foam coming out of her mouth and nose.

No time for good spelling just now.  Wasn't made for it.  Have concepts but communication is not my long suit. 

First of all, people going from Earth to Mars to live will need a parent who will exist for a time we hope, that being the human effort on Earth to support the introduction of humans.  No gaurantee that there will be more than one shot at it.  Maybe not even that.  If it happens, it has to count. 

The tropics of Mars seems to indicate a merciful place, but as I see it habitation of it will require the mastering of stone, metals, glass and plastics.

Sure, if you can bring them in from Earth, if Earth will pay the bills, then you are champion.  But I think it will be a long shot if humans even get a chance at Mars at all.

So, is there any other possibility?  As I see it you have said nuclear reactor(s).  Good.  Mars is likely to be a killer world.  Better be strong, better have a good plan that does not depend on favors from a world you don't really know very well.

So, here is a "Proposed" alternate plan:

Find a location where there is stable ice.  A layer perhaps 100 to 200 feet deep (No time for metric just now).  That's equivalant to a rough estimate of 900 to 1800 mb of potential counterpressure.  Was it the pathfinder that pushed dust off of ice in a polar region?  Well find what you want, drop 2 to 3 minimal sized nuclear reactors onto that location in fair proximity.  Ideally they could melt their way to bedrock, but maybe that's not a real option.  I hope it could be.

Now if desired they with robot abilities support a biological process either chemical driven by H2, O2, and perhaps CO2 (I hope) alternately or as a supplement, a light driven process in a melted environment under 100 t0 200 feet of ice, to provide some biomass and Oxygen in some manner, then bring in the humans.

I want to study making tar from organic materials such as plankton grown in plastic bags.  If the bugs were like those propposed to make bio-fuels, then from that could come Tar, a glue.

Minearal wool does come from rocks.

If the Martians had those two technologies along with the ability to make ice tunnels and pressurize them, then they could make parts from Tar impregnated Minearal wool.

Not a fantastically strong material, but a replacement for Tar Paper.  If thick enough walls could be made from it.  Not to hold pressure, but to isolate a heated interior from the cold atmosphere of the ice cave.  Of course if you have mineral wool, then you can insulate such tar-paper shacks.

Grow plants inside using a artificial light source.

I reason that this level of technology would be less demanding than to construct shelters from stone, plastics, metals and glass.

Having mastered tar paper and mineral wool, they could also have heated workshops where they could begin building the machines and processes for a higher level technology such as glass, plastics, metals and stones.

For instance, instead of landing heavy equipment, perhaps beeds of metal could be hard landed and those turned into machines by such methods available (3D Printer).

But if a metal resource were obtainable locally instead, all the better.

The oil I was talking about for mushrooms would be from organisms grown in a plastic bag at a low pressure.  Not harvesting the oil from them, just enhancing an organism that already accumulates hydrocarbons into itself in a significant abundance.  Then either that is a fish food, and you grow mushrooms off of the organic waste of  that process, or just apply the harvested plankton to the soil, grow mushrooms and so also enhance the soil for vascular photo crops.

I don't have a strong opinion about the sources of oil.  It is reasonable that indeed organisms captured hydrocarbons, that accumulated and was cooked into oil, but there is also reason to think that planets forming had carbon and hydrogen incorporated into their deep layers, not all of it would have been expelled during formation.  We also thiink that the Earth was hit by a Moon forming object, which would have created a magma ocean over the Earth, but not so much Mars.

If Hydrogen and Carbon bearing compounds were embedded. it can be expected that over time they might in cases be released from those compounds.  Hot hydrogen encountering Carbon compounds might generate some Methane.  Methane being trapped under a salt dome, might eventually loose some of its hydrogen which might seep out, and so leave behind a residue of oils.

That also leaves out the possibility that there was a mechanism which drew water down into the deeps of Mars.  Just like it does now here on Earth.  Water encountering Iron for instance would release Hydrogen. and the Hydrogen seeping up might do the same as I described above.

And then what if there was microscopic life on Mars in the past?  Perhaps Oil from that.

Mars having a much colder crust would not show as much evidence of oil seeps because it would not flow as well.  And then even if there were oil seeps, I am sure they would quickly be masked by air borne dust.

But with all of that I am not looking for oil wells on Mars as a plan.

I leave open the possiblity.

If you query for salt domes or salt pans on Mars you will find articles about it.  Of course the interest would be Potassium Chloride.

Maybe there would be a small local salt deposit that could be mined for it.

One article even indicates that Oil is seeping out of a salt dome on Mars, but that is highly disputed that it is oil.

I will bother you with this one more time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l05knxG6eT0

If I were to make a suggestion....  At this time the flow of thought seems to favor gardens under diodes, and I am fine with that.

But what if you landed your habitat and wanted to put some shielding on it.  Perhaps you could place transparent bags of water over it, perhaps place reflective foil on the ground around it to increase the solar flux.  The grow some oil bearing organisms as a plankton.  I would suggest that over the bags should be a sheet of plastic with UV protectant on it.  Being bags of water they are shielding the habitat to a degree, and moderating it's temperature swings, and even insulating it.  The bags then being filled with water would have chances of moderating the thermal stress on the bags, buy being filled with water and by having a layer of plastic with UV protectant over them.

While plastic bags have been characterized in a fairly negative way in this thread,  the multiple simple utility of them as radiation protection and source of fish food/soil improver, may justify the cost of importing them from the beginning.

And if somehow oil could be extracted, I would suggest that tar be manufactured with solar concentrators, and that tar could then be used to make mineral wool panels impregnated and glued with tar.

In fact if I were to want to make huts inside of a ice tunnel, I would want structures built of that, and of course insulated with more mineral wool.

I also might say that even after water bags have deteriorated, it should be possible to recycle the material into a 3D printer to make useful parts.  This may also help to justify the importation of them.  But it would be best to be able to manufacture them on Mars asap, but I think that would be down the road a fair distance.

From that then either feed fish and put their droppings into the soil or simply put the plankton into the soil. 

The next step would be to seed the soil with Mushrooms to further improve it.

I hope you don't mind the suggestions.

I think you should not worry about it.

If you would study the fourth turning, it might make sense.