New Mars Forums

Spacenut,

I will attempt to justify what was previously presented by me against the benchmark you have provided.

First of all Mars is not Earth.  The methods presented as challenge are specifically adapted to provide a solution to problems that exist on Earth, and may not be suited to Mars.  No swamps on Mars, no oceans.

The Idea with the heated mineral oil might have application on Mars.  However, after heating the mineral oil, the final process I believe is to just boil non potable water and condense it into potable water.  Which is just fine, a good plan for a place on Earth.

I presented something which I think is rather new. a portal where both a gas flow and a concentrated solar flow pass from a lower pressure environment to a higher pressure environment.  True, you must supply electrical or steam force to spin the fan, but I think it may have useful potential for specific purposes.

A small amount of steam is also added to the flow at its upstream side in the hopes of producing a presence of free Hydrogen which according to the link I supplied can exist in warm moist air.

Further the whole process can occur with less than 100 mb pressures, perhaps much lower than that.  That could matter as the materials that you create a machine from would be expensive on Mars.

So, what I would hope to get out of this effort would be

1) Hydrogen (And an Oxidizer).
2) Distilled water
3) Possibly a thermal power system.

I had asked the other members to try to help me complete the machine.  That is no longer necessary.  I think I have the main variations in mind.

I stipulate that #1 can exist without implementing #2 or #3.

It makes sense however to do #2 if you are doing #1.

It may make sense to do #3 as well, if you have sufficient distilled water, and your installation is large.

I request your indulgence to redefine a variation of the machine/process, one which will suit life support much more I think.

I will start with the plastic film enclosure.  I will change it from being filled with Martian air to being filled with Oxygen, at a higher than ambient pressure so as to inflate it.  However it will be desired to keep the pressure low enough to escape the dangers of combustion or explosion. The enclosure should allow as much of the solar spectrum to pass through as possible.  Particularly I want the U.V. spectrum, because it is very powerful at messing with water molecules.
In the thread atmospheric separations,

A potential modification of the above:
I have proposed how to extract Nitrogen and Argon, etc from the atmosphere of Mars.  Here would be an application to use those.  Instead of having a pure Oxygen filler, I would alter the scheme to one where a mixture of Oxygen, Nitrogen, and Argon are maintained to make the process less corrosive, flammable, and explosive.

Inside of that low pressure plastic film enclosure  will suppose a solar concentrating mirror.  As a first try, I will suppose a parabolic circular mirror, but it should be possible also to use a rectangular mirror, it would require some adaptations however.

That mirror being focused on a Squirrel Cage rotor and it's chamber.  It should be noted that both the rotor and the chamber which encloses it may have a catalyst substance added to their surfaces to aid the process of splitting water molecules.  The turbulence of the air in contact with the rotor and the induced turbulence of the air in the chamber should enhance the contact of  water molecules with the rotor and enclosure surfaces which may include a catalyst surface layer.  The water will of course be squirted into the opening . This is not the distillation process, so don't be confused it is to mix some water molecules into the portal.

The objective of the dynamic portal is to suck in a low pressure mixture of Oxygen, Nitrogen, Argon, and water vapor, pressurize it inside of a compartment defined by the static enclosure walls and the dynamic wall created by the rotating squirrel cage rotor.  The concentration of solar energy focused into this pressurized chamber, is to raise the temperature of the pressurized mixed gasses, and also the content of that concentrated focused light mixture presumed to be including a significant portion of U.V. light , the production of temporary liberated Hydrogen should be expected. 

So, at some point you would want to use the process where an electric current will convert a Hydrogen atom to a Proton.  It is suggested that this is expected to be possible, and useful in the link below.  Without that this whole described process might not be as useful, and in the absence of the ability to collect Hydrogen, it might be wise to chose an altered process.  However, I am going to run with the idea that it will be possible to extract Hydrogen from moist warm air.
http://phys.org/news/2014-11-protons-fu … pects.html

It should be noted that if you are adding water vapor to a gas mix of Oxygen, Nitrogen, and Argon, and then splitting some of the water molecules, and then capturing the temporariliy liberated Hydrogen out of that mix, you are then causing the mix to have more Oxygen. So, again;

A potential modification of the above:
I have proposed how to extract Nitrogen and Argon, etc from the atmosphere of Mars.  Here would be an application to use those.  Instead of having a pure Oxygen filler, I would alter the scheme to one where a mixture of Oxygen, Nitrogen, and Argon are maintained to make the process less corrosive, flammable, and explosive.

So you add more Nitrogen and Argon to the mix, and you have more "Air".

So if this works, you have captured Hydrogen, and have manufactured Air, without plants or Electrolysis.

So item #1 is completed!

Next item #2 wants some water distilled.  Specially salty water which is likely available on Mars, but to broaden it could be non potable water.  We want to distill it into usable water.

An easiest way to do this would be to pass the hot air over a tray of contaminated water and evaporate from it.  In fact this might be superior to actual boiling, because if you boil, you must utilize de-misters to remove the brine mist that gets included into the steam.  But if you want to boil it I suppose you could blow the hot air over a pressure vessel's outer surface and create a pressurized boil.  Since water is being evaporated/boiled the temperature of the hot air is reduced to accomplish this.

I prefer the open basin evaporation method.  Should work very well when you hot air is ~800 Degrees Fahrenheit (~426.667 degC), and your pressure of the output air is ~20 to ~100 mb.

So you then have your evaporated water in a air flow.  Condensation is the next effort to be made.

I suggest involving Item #3.  An Ammonia water power generator could be considered, although their are other alternatives.  An Ammonia/Water boiler system will require piping and will of course be self enclosed against outside conditions.  The heating coils of the Ammonia/Water electric generator will have the very hot air blow over them so as to boil Ammonia, and to partially cool the hot air.  The condenser side of the Ammonia water system will have to be a heat sink, which is quite do-able on Mars.  The heat could be dumped to the outside environment around the clock, or into a cold water reservoir.

So Item #3 is potentially satisfied  (Electric power generation from thermal differentials.)

But Item #2 may still be open.  The Ammonia water boiler system which is used to partially cool the air may not cool it enough for water to condense.

The final cooling process could likely involve cold water from a reservoir, mixing the air with water at a substantially cold temperature, even as low as 32 degF (0 degC).

So Air, Hydrogen, cleaned water, and electric power from both a turbine, and from fuel cells (If you have made air, and have captured Hydrogen, then you might choose to recover energy using a fuel cell).

One of the problems with making a living on Mars, is either you must have pressurized greenhouses with plants in them, or you must have artificial lights and have indoor gardens.  I don't propose to dispose of any of those options, but this is yet another method to obtain what is needed.

But if this works, (The Hydrogen and air parts in particular), then there will be much less need for high pressure greenhouses, or electrically demanding indoor artificially lighted gardens.  If you have Hydrogen and air, and electricity and fresh water, you can manufacture food and plastics as well.  And your "GreenHouse" enclosures could be at ambient pressure or just a bit higher, requiring less strength, and less materials.

Your question was "Why, would we want to use electrical power to do this when solar can do the same and use less power.

Really the only mentioned component is the dynamic portal (Squirrel cage rotor).   It's consumption of energy should be rather small compared to the energy and resource value that could be captured by the above system.

The substitute process you mentioned would also have to involve electricity consuming technological devices.  The question is, is it worth it?  Is the value out greater than the value expended to capture the value out?

But I understand, you wanted me to explain better, and to give better "Evidence" of value.

Thanks for the help.

I am aware of a process with water in soil which might point a way.  In that case the Germans in WWII used electricity to dry up boggy soil so that they could drive tanks over it.
A negative electrode attracts water in soil.  This I think may be because in a solution, electrons are shared off of the water, and the water molecules themselves then have a positive charge and so flow to the negative electrode.

I would hope to do similar for O2 or CO in a solution of water or CO2, but as you have indicated this may not be realistic. Even if it did work, then does it attract both the O2 and CO molecules to the negative electrode?  Maybe not.

Anyway for an electrode, I might want to try this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_gills_(human)

If this does not work, then I have to wonder if you did do electrolysis, that is drive a splitting process where the mix is water, Co2, O2, and CO, what would happen.  Would you get Oxygen and Hydrogen at a discount of electrical force needed?  Or something else.

Finally, I wonder what happens if UV is allowed to shine in the mix and help ionize it?  Might that help?

I did not get any answers on the idea of plating anions and cations to two electrodes (+) and (-).  I was hoping someone would straiten me out on that.  Anyway for such a process to work, perhaps UV light would help.

Here are some other processes for separations which are interesting:

http://physics.stackexchange.com/questi … centrifuge

Of course I would be expecting the Martian atmosphere to be much better for centrifuging, since CO2 weights quite a lot more than the other gasses in the Martian atmosphere mix it.

That hopefully would leave a mix where all the other component gasses had been enriched, and the CO2 content reduced.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_gills_(human)

I am interested in this last one both for water.

Also for CO2 as the "Fluid" instead of water (Don't know if an analog process for CO2 as the main fluid component is possible, but it would be good.).

I would be interested if some type of Sponge "Plastron" could be put out in the Martian atmosphere and repel CO2, and CO, but allow other gasses such as Oxygen into it.
Similarly I would like to exclude CO2 and Oxygen and get mainly CO. 
But those are wishes.  I have no idea if it can be done.

http://phys.org/news/2014-11-sawdust-gasoline.html

This is why I would like to find a rugged plant with Cellulose and a very low pressure greenhouse that can go together.

From the breakdown of cellulose can come fuel, plastics and food.

From the Mars Society?
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= … vLuNeVWDBw

And of course I have mentioned water filled greenhouses with water or oil filled bags above to apply counter pressure, and a special diving/spacesuit for such an environment.

Convincing underwater plants to include cellulose would be a desired trick if possible.

I was looking for any notions on the web that might support the idea that you could electroplate CO and Oxygen dissolved into the atmosphere onto a Cathode and Anode.

I did not succeed in finding anything so far.

However, Supercritical CO2 is interesting.  A solvent which might allow the extraction of needed materials from the soil.

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/sc … iticalco2/

So, that could be pretty great, Magnesium as your fuel, and I think you could use CO2 Oxygen substitute?  I'm going to check on that.  It's been around since 2003.

So yes;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oQ_9nFe9HU

So Dry Ice and Magnesium.  That would indicate to me that spacecraft based on Mars could reasonably carry materials to orbit, to create a thriving orbital industrial culture, once humans were established on Mars.

And interestingly, it appears that this will get you Carbon from the Atmosphere.  Carbon is useful, and further you could superheat it with a solar concentrator, and blow very hot water steam across it to get coal gas, which could be the basis for a hydrocarbon output process.  (Plastics as well).

I still would like to find out if you could electroplate Oxygen and CO from the atmosphere with a dry process.

I suppose I should have my head examined for trying to participate in this, but I do have a view.

Articles I have searched for indicate that the reason that the ISS has an Earth like atmosphere is because both the Russians and Americans had gone to it.

Because of this reading, I now have a better grasp of why a low pressure Oxygen fire could be dangerous.  Without the Nitrogen to draw off heat, I suppose it is a hotter fire.

The article indicated that the reasons to go to a Nitrogen partial pressure were:
1) Better air circulation, would reduce the possibility of getting pockets of CO2 or CO concentrations in a large structure.
2) Higher pressures would allow for better cooling of lab and other equipment.
3) In a similar fashion, higher air pressure removed heat from an exercising persons body more effectively.  Apparently, overheating in a low pressure environment while exercising can be very stressful to the human body.

So, I am going to side with the notions that where possible large enclosures should be filled with an Earth like mix if possible, and kept at shirt sleeve temperatures.

I can speculate however, that an intermediate device is needed between a stationary large habitat and a suited person doing an EVA.  I would think that would be a mobile device on wheels.  It should be capable of life support for extended periods.  I would say that because the pressurized cabin of it could be smallish, then the hazards can be handled by extra efforts on fire prevention and perhaps emergency methods to remove the Oxygen from the cab on short notice or perhaps a fire suppressing gas.  As the cab would be relatively small, build up of pockets of CO2 and CO, should not be as much of a danger.  For exercising perhaps a cool down of the cab, and a fan very close might make it safer and less stressful to the body.

But fine, if they build suits with gloves that work for all things at high pressures then that is great.  However, I am going to speculate that different types of tasks would be best done with different types of suits.

So, you are being kind.  That is good.  This site needs a heart more than it needs anything.

Yes, those plants offer much, maybe can't be sure until facts are established.  However if it can offer calories, and bladerwort can offer nutrition, and mushrooms might offer additional nutrition, maybe, then much of what is needed for food is covered, and you can be more at ease on what you have to grow in your special greenhouses, to keep humans healthy.

Happy to reply to a very nice bunch of contributors.

I would suggest on the limits of my abilities that first the tank be pressurized to the level that practical methods can offer, with Mars atmospheric gasses, and then a spray of atomized water be added to absorbable gasses that can be absorbed into a water liquid.  That then further pressurizing the chamber, and separating the component gasses.

Bladder Wort.

http://www.docherb.ca/BLADDERWORT.htm

I am really thinking about the floating types, but I suppose other types could be considered.

So, then if you had tanks in your habitat and/or greenhouses, you might then have some means to increase your fire protection, and also have a useful herb, and flowers as well.

It is a carnivorous plant.  While I understand the inefficiencies involved in that at face value, it may present a opportunity to grow algae or Cyanobacteria in low pressure greenhouses in water, and then to batch move it in to the hab or pipe it in (Another possible fire handling method).

So you might have a large productivity from a plant that does not depend entirely on direct photosynthesis.  Little creatures like Daphnia might have to be the intermediaries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daphnia

Further this plant may partially and indirectly be caused to run off of chemosynthesis, if you split water and/or CO2 and grew bacteria as feedstock from chemicals.

So rather a flexible plant that might be suited to be a component of a habitat.

More:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utricularia

No criticism, just curiosity.

If a sphere is made, then to some degree it is a concentrating mirror with the star at it's focus.  What does that do?  Or did you already address that?

That's an interesting idea.  One reason I am interested in Ceres, is that although many star systems may not have good worlds to inhabit, it may be that an object similar to Ceres could be found.  Having adapted to Ceres here, then you would have a method for habitation there.  A smaller cold object would be much easier to access than a large cold one.

What if you cut tunnels with a height of 370 feet and a width of 5 to 10 feet?

Surface
--------------------------------------------------------------------

__  370 feet
|  |
|  |
|  |
|  |
|  |
|  |          Ice
|  |
|  |
|  |
|  |
|  |
|  |
|_| 0 feet

I wonder what synthetic gravity would be like  in a hamster wheel in one of these?  Say 1/3 gee +/- 2.7%? over the travel of the wheel?

A bit like riding in an elevator?

And the tunnels themselves might not need supports, maybe just some bracing at the top.

Looking from the top view, you might have layouts like this:

                       Main   _______________________________________________
                                                        |                                        |                   \
                                                       a                                       b                     \                                                                       
                                                                                                                        \_____________________________________ and whatever, as many such tunnels as you would want.

'a' might be a place for a centrifuge, 'b' might be where a tall building that actually has an airlock on the surface, but where the building was mostly embedded in the ice.

Granted you would want to have some type of vacuum proof covering over the ice walls.