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#851 Re: Water on Mars » Closer view of springs inside Endurance crater. » 2004-05-05 08:05:34

REB, I don't think these are just fractures.

Color images of the same area reveal that the supposed channels are discolored compared to the surrounding rock, and they appear to be depressed into the rock surface like water weathering channels.  More importantly, there is no apparent vertical displacement from one side of each channel to the other.  The horizontal rock layers run right from one side of the channel to the other, with no lifting of either side to indicate a fault line.  For comparison, the rock layers above the channels and the rock formations in Eagle crater show significant vertical displacement at many fault lines.  Those rocks were broken, and show it.  These channels don't.

Further, although their development is likely quite recent and not a long term indicator, lighter dust streaks, the "dune" shapes in the crater center and other features reveal that these channels do not run in the same direction as the prevailing winds through the crater.  These channels were made by something moving down the rock face at an angle to the recent winds.  Water seems like an excellent candidate to me.

Errorist might be right, but in spite of that risk, I think it's important that his speculations be examined further.

#852 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Tabletop Nuclear Fusion Device - ..."Sonofusion" » 2004-05-05 07:38:06

Given enough power to run it, a modified Fusor could be operated just like any other ion drive, only with an exhaust velocity between 250km/s and 10000km/s, depending on design.

A useable rocket engine would likely need more power than the tabletop demonstration units, because its confinement time drops when you're draining the plasma out of a rocket nozzle.  However, the tabletop units typically only use 100W to 1000W -- less than a toaster.  (The charge developed is more important than the current.)

#853 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Ionization of Gas, Ion/plasma Acceleration, plasma - Containment and plasma Channeling » 2004-05-05 07:18:35

Hmm... Yes, thermal ionization of a plasma by conduction is probably a bad idea.  The plasma should be ionized by electric current, microwaves, or something that can act on it directly.

That lowers the nozzle temperature considerably.

#854 Re: Unmanned probes » A puddle ? » 2004-05-04 14:00:04

The closest thing the rovers have to a water detector is their thermal emission spectrometers.  Both lack the mass spectrometers necessary for definitive identification of water.  Neither the Mossbauer spectrometer nor the XRF spectrometer can detect water because neither molecular water, hydrogen, nor oxygen emit at frequencies these types of spectrometer are designed to detect.  In fact, one possible test the rovers can make for water using their limited equipment is to identify a candidate target using the thermal spectrometer and check it with the alpha XRF spectrometer.  If the XRF spectrometer gets significantly lower than expected counts, it's a safe bet that it's only reading traces of dust in a matrix of something it can't detect -- like ice.

#855 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Ionization of Gas, Ion/plasma Acceleration, plasma - Containment and plasma Channeling » 2004-05-04 13:44:37

Hydrogen has the highest specific heat of any known substance. 

It is the best coolant in the known universe.

The only problems with it are the handling difficulties.  That's why very high temperature applications use molten lithium instead (the second best coolant in the known universe) to avoid those nasty explosion risks.

#856 Re: Human missions » Why "alt-space" won't work - Invite to a flame war! :-) » 2004-05-03 13:01:10

I don't understand the necessity of a $100 cutoff (or $10, or $10000) for this argument.  Launch expense seems irrelevant...    ???

#857 Re: Unmanned probes » What are the 'Blueberries" - What are the spheres Opportunity found? » 2004-04-30 12:26:36

Hmm… I lost two of my examples.  However, all they were was a collection of representative soil target micrographs and a picture of the “Berrybowl” site in Eagle crater.  I am confident that analysis of any similar set of micrographs from the area would yield the same basic conclusions.

In light of the data that the subsoils in the area are mostly hematite poor basalt grains, I am reaching an interesting conclusion regarding the blueberries based on my hypothesis that sorting during saltation accounts for the observed size distribution. 

I believe that the blueberries in Eagle Crater are composed primarily (>50%) of a mineral other than hematite (iron oxide) which is less dense than goethite (iron hydroxide), one of the lightest iron-bearing minerals.  If my own analysis of their density is correct (admittedly a big if), hematite is not the primary component of the blueberries in Eagle Crater.   They could not be solid hematite, or even mostly hematite.

The culprit mineral could be an alkali salt, a carbonate, or something else that doesn’t show up well on the spectrometers.  Or the grains could be porous.  But they would definitely not be pure, solid hematite.

#858 Re: Unmanned probes » What are the 'Blueberries" - What are the spheres Opportunity found? » 2004-04-29 08:37:23

I’ve done a preliminary analysis of some of the soil sample micrographs, looking at size distribution patterns in the hematite blueberries at Eagle crater.  The following mosaic is a good  example of some soil micro-photos by the Opportunity rover:

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery. … ..._br.jpg

and this non-micrograph picture of the “Berry Bowl” site was interesting  as  well:

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery. … ..._br.jpg

It’s been noted that the size distribution of these hematite concretions is not uniform or balanced. There appears at first glance to be a distinct upper and lower limit to their size throughout the Eagle Crater site, with the average size of the globules being closer to the upper limit than the middle of the  range. 

I  find that there is indeed an upper limit to the size of the hematite blueberries, which is on the order of about 3mm but actually varies significantly from sample to sample.  The largest blueberries  exceed 5mm but those are quite rare.  The average is between 2.5mm and 3mm, despite the fact that the typical median value for soil samples is usually closer to 1.5mm.

There  is an observable lower limit in several of the samples, but not all.  Further, this lower limit is not consistent from sample to sample.  I attribute this to two effects: 1) resolution limits and other  artifacts in the images which make my sampling techniques unable to discern the smallest particles,  and 2) size separation of particles due to saltation in the soil samples.

This link is an article discussing size separation of particles in a collection of vibrated granules:

http://jfi.uchicago.edu/~jaeger....ure. … ...ure.pdf

Windblown granules can be expected to behave similarly as they are deposited during saltation, though over longer time periods.

The  graph at the beginning of the article indicates what would be necessary for large particles (like  the hematite blueberries) to separate vertically relative to the surrounding grains as the soil is blown along the surface.   This data suggests that the largest blueberries would rise to the top of a vertical column of windblown grains over time as they were carried along, with the smaller blueberries remaining buried, thus segregating them according to size and concentrating the larger blueberries on top.  It also suggests that the particle separation will be influenced by relative density.

How large this difference in density is may provide an additional clue to the composition of the little  spheres.  For example, if they are porous (and thus less dense), their distribution will vary slightly from that of solid hematite granules.

The separation of sizes during saltation should leave the largest particles on top.  The size distribution is fairly sharply limited to 5mm.  This suggests that something prevented the growth of  hematite blueberries larger than 5mm. However, particles in the surrounding (possibly non-hematite) grains which are of sufficient density to separate at the same rate as larger, less dense particles will mix in evenly with those particles, concealing the smaller hematite particles amid the rest of the dust.  This accounts for the observed lower size limit and its variability from sample to sample.

Given the assumption that relative separation periods for windblown separation are proportional to those for vibratory separation, it is possible to set limits on the density range of the hematite granules in these soil samples.

Assumptions about the surrounding grains are necessary for exact density figures, but not for estimating relative density.  For example, the average density of solid hematite is 5.3 g/cc, while the average granular  density of silica sand is 2.6 g/cc. Solid hematite grains are twice as dense as solid silica sand grains. So, according to the results in the attached article, the smallest grains of solid hematite we should see always on top of a windblown mix of silica sand and hematite are those whose size is at least 25 times that of the average sand grain. Anything smaller than that would be mixed in evenly with the rest.

If the surrounding granules were 10 times denser than the hematite blueberries, the smallest blueberries would be less than 5 times the average diameter of the surrounding grains.  Similarly, if the surrounding granules were also largely solid hematite (yielding a density ratio of 1), the smallest observed diameter should be at least 15 times the average diameter of the surrounding grains. 

The smaller the smallest hematite grains are, the lower their relative density is.

My estimate is that the smallest granules are about 10 to 15 times the size of the smallest grains, but this is likely inaccurate due to limits of image resolution (the smallest grains are likely smaller than my estimate, making the actual size ratio higher).  This suggests that the hematite blueberries are not significantly heavier than the smaller particles that comprise the rest of the windblown grains.  This finding is consistent with large, solid hematite granules atop a sand composed largely of hematite.  It would also be consistent with large, porous hematite granules atop a sand composed of lighter particles, such as silica grains.  However, the lower size limit observed does not support a density ratio less than 0.7 or greater than 1.3.

In short, the hematite blueberries are about as dense as the surrounding dust.

Thanks for your time.

CME

#859 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Selectionism - An Ideology for Martian Settlement » 2004-04-28 15:44:32

Mathematical modeling of governments as decision making “voting systems” (in which a pure democracy is one voting system with all members voting, a fascist state is a voting system with only a small fraction of the members voting, a dictatorship is a voting system with only one member voting, etc.) reveals: a voting system can be either completely egalitarian, completely logical & representative, or completely decisive, but not all three.

Governments sometimes try to define themselves by which of these qualities they have the most of.  Dictatorships play themselves up as being decisive.  Democracies insist that they are egalitarian.  Socialist governments claim to be logical and representative.  However, the most efficient form of government isn’t a Dictatorship, a Democracy, or a Communist State.  It is a Republic comprised of several distinct voting oligarchies, each performing its own task and using its own voting system tailored to what it need to do.  No government can be completely egalitarian, logical and decisive at all levels, but a republic can assign a governmental branch or agencies to be whichever one it needs to be at the time.

Italy, for example, has hilarious legislative politics because it’s a democracy.  But its government works well because it’s a republic, not just a democracy.

The United States has an executive branch with no end of comic potential.  But its government works well because it’s a republic, not just a dictatorship.

Great Britain has an amusing legislature _and_ monarch.  But again, it functions because it’s a republic.

You can’t say that a republic is always egalitarian, logical or decisive.  But the most efficient republics are flexible enough to be whichever they need to be at the time.

All republics are a little bit schizophrenic.  However, I couldn’t endorse a form of government that was always the same no matter which part of it I went to.

#860 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Living on mars. - Would you personally live on Mars? » 2004-04-28 14:26:10

Uh Oh!  There seems to be a theme developing here.

My own wife has already told me that she would prefer to live on Earth.  Unfortunately, this was revealed _after_ the wedding! 

(Should have included it in the wedding vows.  Dang It!)

:bars3:

#861 Re: Life support systems » Food! - Marsians=vegetarians? » 2004-04-28 14:02:40

True, a CELSS could function en route if the time were taken to set it up after launch and if the materials to keep it running were brought along, but it seems more practical to wait until you get to Mars to start the greenhouse.

If so, why would you need CELSS?

#862 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Tabletop Nuclear Fusion Device - ..."Sonofusion" » 2004-04-28 09:54:39

It may not bode at all.  Or it may be the greatest thing for space exploration since the telescope.  Hard to say until we know whether or not it can produce enough power to reach breakeven.

As an example, just producing nuclear fusion reactions without reaching breakeven is something that can be done with an existing technology called a Farnsworth Fusor.  It's a little tabletop-sized device invented by the fellow who invented television.  It ionizes gases using static electric fields and circulates them until they accelerate to speeds/temperatures where they will fuse.  I suspect a Farnsworth Fusor produces a higher rate of fusion than they're currently seeing for sonoluminescence. 

Sadly, it's still not enough to reach breakeven and produce more power than it takes to run the reactor.

Happily, it's fascinating that we already have tested, proven technology to create a fusion rocket engine today if we just drop this foolhardy preoccupation with wanting it to bootstrap its own power source.

How will nuclear fusion turn out as a technology?  Well, that depends as much on what you want from it as on what it can give you.

#863 Re: Life support systems » Food! - Marsians=vegetarians? » 2004-04-28 09:28:18

Closed Environment Life Support Systems are mentioned fairly consistently whenever we've post regarding greenhouses.  That's logical, since CELSS requires a greenhouse.  But greenhouses don't require CELSS.

Are there any advantages to skipping CELSS development and just sending a greenhouse?

#864 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Alcubierre Warp Drive » 2004-04-27 16:03:37

So, there needn't be any causality violation.

Third: Why does it have to be faster than light?  The whole messy problem could be avoided altogether if we were just willing to settle for sublight speeds.

Second: I've seen some interesting speculations that an absolute reference frame could exist.  Relativity allows for something of the sort with rotating objects, leaving the door open for the existance of an absolute reference frame (if certain violations of conservation of angular momentum are possible).  An absolute reference frame would allow FTL travel without causality violation.

First: In strictest terms, the speed of light was never proven, per se, to be the fastest speed in the universe.  This was simply assumed as a postulate in the derivation of Relativity, and all the predictions derived from that assumption have proven true so far.  So far, the supremacy of light in the fast lane is an inductive conclusion, not a deductive one.

#865 Re: Life on Mars » Settlement Patterns - How I Think The Red Planet Would Be Won » 2004-04-27 15:33:15

Why no flower gardens in the science stations?

Scientists are people, too!  All of our tests say so!

#866 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Ionization of Gas, Ion/plasma Acceleration, plasma - Containment and plasma Channeling » 2004-04-27 15:20:13

A gas with a low enough ionization energy can be ionized with just an electric current.  This is how an arcjet rocket engine works.  The best fuels for an arcjet usually fall into two categories: heavy molecular weight gases with low first ionization energies (which take less power to ionize but more power to accelerate the plasma) and light molecular weight gases that dissociate into still lighter molecules (which take more power to ionize but less power to accelerate the plasma).  It is not necessary to completely ionize all of the gas to start manipulating it like a plasma, but the more you can ionize the faster the exhaust velocity can be.

A spark plug from a car, run at high enough voltage in a small nozzle, could ionize a gas.  However, if you want the best performance, it’s best to shape the nozzle for optimum performance.  One of the best nozzle shapes is simply two concentric pipes (one inside the other) with the propellant flowing between them.  Each pipe serves as a high voltage electrode, and the current arcing between the electrodes flows through the propellant, ionizing it.  The current sets up a magnetic field (perpendicular to both the gas flow and current flow, but concentric with respect to the pipes) that accelerates the plasma out of the nozzle at a rate even faster than its thermal expansion would allow.  In addition to creating a suitable magnetic field, it's also important to shape the nozzle to allow maximum charge accumulation where you want it (and prevent it where you don't).

#867 Re: Human missions » Clunking to Mars - Are the needed parts already up there? » 2004-04-24 18:06:08

How much fuel will it take to move the ISS?

Does anyone have a mass estimate for ISS hardware currently in orbit?

#868 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » LIGO, LISA and Gravity Probe B - Gravity Wave Studies » 2004-04-21 13:40:42

"Twisting them like tornado winds"... If only!    big_smile

Actually, if antimatter power and spin drive ever become realities, and if we can ever manufacture our own miniature Hawking-style black holes (hmm... Did I forget any "ifs"? sad ), then we might someday be capable of producing enough power in a dense enough package to make a gravitational field do just that.  However, the entire planet Earth does not.  The sideways component of gravity in Earth orbit due to inertial frame dragging is infinitesimal.

SBird, I'll say again that I have no reason LIGO shouldn't work.  But saying it has to be done in space because of the noise here on Earth just puts another maximum limit on the effect.  There's still an absence of evidence.

If LIGO doesn't work, it would be safe to start asking where all that neutron star energy is really going.

#869 Re: Water on Mars » water water every where and nota drop to drink. - Water any one? » 2004-04-21 08:52:40

Those channels in the southern Nilosyrtis Mensae region puzzle me. I have search for other explanations but I keep coming back to water channels.

... They all seem to originate from impact craters, one per crater.

The only thing I can think if is underground water. I don’t think they have water flowing in them at this moment (I would suspect if this was the case, they would have an ice coating covering them), but it looks like it was very recent.

Hmm... Perhaps mother nature has already done the drilling for us.

Is there a way to estimate the depth of these craters? 

If so, is there some minimum depth for which shallower craters show no channels?  If the distribution of liquid water were uniform across the area, there would be a water table.

Also, you reject the prospect that these flows are current because there is apparently no ice.  However, all that we have are satellite photos.  What are the criteria for recognizing ice under these conditions?  Could dust or somthing be obscuring the ice in those channels and still give the same appearance?

#870 Re: Human missions » Clunking to Mars - Are the needed parts already up there? » 2004-04-21 08:30:51

An excellent idea!

The Beagle probe did not reach Mars in operational condition, but satellite photos of the landing site indicate that it did not disintegrate, either.  Its components could conceivably be reclaimed at a later date.  Likewise, if automated precursors to a Mars Mission (like an ERV or probe) fail upon reaching Mars, all the equipment isn't necessarily lost.

#872 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » LIGO, LISA and Gravity Probe B - Gravity Wave Studies » 2004-04-20 11:51:11

I'm hoping for some results, obtainable somehow in ways we might not be aware of.  :-\  ...

I'm embarassed to admit I only heard of Gravity Probe B this morning, so I'm no expert...   sad

However, I can guess how it's supposed to work.  The component of gravity due to inertial frame dragging is in the same direction as the Earth's rotation.  The probe is in a polar orbit, which means that once per orbit it's travelling north relative to the earth and once per orbit it's travelling south relative to the earth.  So, when it's travelling north, the inertial frame dragging should appear to be in one direction, and when it's travelling south the inertial frame dragging should appear to be in the other direction.  So, the probe will be looking for some miniscule variation with a direction that  flip-flops once every orbit.  People have seen what they believe to be inertial frame dragging in celestial mechanics, and the general consensus is that the evidence so far is pretty solid, but that flip-flop effect is the one thing you can't get just watching Mercury's orbital precession.

Well, that's how I'd do it if I had a Gravity Probe...   :;):

The outcome of this experiment could be important to Humanity's future as a spacefaring species.  If inertial frame dragging as described by Einstein is real, it means that spacetime can conceivably be manipulated arbitrarily using energy in forms that we can control.  If inertial frame dragging is possible, so is warp drive.  It's just a matter of degree and density.

cool

#873 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » LIGO, LISA and Gravity Probe B - Gravity Wave Studies » 2004-04-20 06:16:43

Actually, Shaun, I share your opinion about LIGO, and for a similar reason.  I have no theoretical reason why it shouldn't work - "gravity waves" seems as good a way as any for gravitational systems to dissipate energy, although they are not required by general relativity as originally derived.  However, LIGO isn't an experiment that's been fifty years in the making.  It's the culmination of an experimental series that's been _being conducted_ for fifty years.  People have been doing experiments like this since the 1960's, and have found nothing except new values for how tiny the gravity waves would have to be to avoid detection. 

My prediction about LIGO is:  They've found nothing in the previous forty five years.  They'll find nothing in the next forty-five.

My next prediction is: Gravity Probe B will find evidence of inertial frame dragging.  Gravity can point sideways, just like general relativity says it can.

Unlike gravity waves, inertial frame dragging is already strongly indicated by current observations of astronomical phenomena, including planetary precession and variations in the spectra of accretion disks around black holes.  A sideways nudge is the best explanation for some of these observations; i.e., inertial frame dragging.  Gravity Probe B will be the first to directly measure this effect using a manmade instrument.  It will not provide the first observation in support of inertial frame dragging, just the final confirmation. 

As for the "lost inch" and "destroyed space" explanations: they're CRAP, with all capital letters.  Inertial frame dragging is a spatial distortion, just like the downward pointing gravity we all know and love.  It just happens to be a distortion in a different direction.

#874 Re: Human missions » Questions » 2004-04-19 09:52:20

It's important to note that a one-way colonization mission will not necessarily reduce costs.  If anything, a one-way mission will cost more than a return mission because of all the extra equipment (and corresponding R&D) that will go into keeping their colony running successfully once they get to Mars.

A colonization mission is only guaranteed to give more return for the money, not to cost less money.

Josh,

I believe that a dedicated amateur can do exactly the type of project you're describing.  Don't give up.  Just start small, and work with expansion in mind.

#875 Re: Human missions » Questions » 2004-04-18 22:58:06

Indeed, it looks like R&D is the most expensive part of any mission profile's costs.  So, logically, any mission profile that minimizes research and development also minimizes costs.

Not requiring something saves the money of having to develop it. 

CELSS could be skipped.  By relying on other R&D that already has to be done for in situ propellant production, on site resource utilization could be used to take up the slack for existing life support systems.

An Ares rocket could be skipped.  Breaking the mission down into a series of launches (as in the RedColony.com Mars For Less mission profile) could save money by taking the money slated for developing a brand new HLV and sinking it into boosters already flying. 

Development of a space-rated nuclear reactor could be skipped.  A radiothermal pile of equivalent power, using banks of existing RTG units, could be assembled with the same power output and several times the operational lifetime of a single nuclear reactor.

Skipping some piece of equipment that you want will not improve the mission, but it may not kill it, either.  You can save money if you're willing to trade versatility, robustness, mass, etc., for that money.

:bars2:

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