New Mars Forums

I more or less agree with you.  Many of the models for what was are based for lack of information on what is.

A thicker, and maybe more different atmosphere is reasonable.  Some of the asteroids in the asteroid belt still have ice and from time to time behave like comets.  Perhaps billions of years ago, they also had CO2 and Ammonia.  Then if they impacted Earth or Mars, they could contribute to a greater greenhouse effect.  To explain certain geology on Mars, such a situation would only have to exist for 25% or less of the existence of Mars.

And volcanism is presumed to be more active.  That is a double edged sword for Mars though because it is possible that super volcano's might eject atmosphere?  Then again impactors can add atmosphere or splash it away for a world like Mars.  There are a lot of variables.  And it may be true that earlier Mars had more atmospheric components to eject from volcano's than now.

But if the asteroids/comets had more CO2 and Ammonia, then it seems reasonable that they would also be likely to have had more water ice.
So, possibly Mars received quite a lot of water relative to Earth, as it is closer to the reservoir.

But it won't break my heart if facts intrude on my speculation.  I don't make a living this way.

I will settle peacefully for whatever is determined to be the truth, but I think the best method to have such an ocean on Mars would be a generally glaciated southern hemisphere (High Ground), and a generally ice covered basin in the north.

Antarctica and Greenland in the south, an Arctic Ocean in the North.  Maybe some dry deserts and volcano's to kick up dust to darken the surface of the ice from time to time.

This along with an atmosphere thick enough for cold melt water to persist long enough to run down into cracks and tunnels in the southern glacier would provide the water for rivers, and perhaps open water lakes at times at the equator.  I am presuming the rivers would mostly run under the ice cap in the southern hemisphere, and might emerge from it at the lower latitudes, only then to dump into a large ice covered ocean reservoir in the north.

That is a minim requirement for an Ocean in the North I think.  It also does not take into account the changing tilt of the axis of Mars that is said to occur.  But depending on the type of atmosphere, it may be that at that time the altitude of the south was sufficient to collect snow into an ice cap regardless of the amount of tilt.

With more atmosphere (1 Bar CO2) it could be nearly as warm as the Earth (But the sun was not as hot then).  But maybe comets and asteroids impacting had some CO2.  Maybe the volcano's could keep it resupplied for a time while it was young.

It changed though probably many times, and I am open to the facts if they can be found.

I believe that the last thing I read is that the ocean is thought to have filled twice.  The first time presumably from a surface water cycle, and the second time from ground reservoirs that were thought to have been melted by geothermal processes.

The second time they think the ocean just then froze solid and then evaporated away.

However, if the Mariner rift valley really does have fossil ice in it's bottom ~1 1/2 miles thick and other locations similar, I do not dismiss the idea that the northern basin is in part the remnant of a frozen sea, and some significant ice of that sea is still their under the dirt.

I think the abundance of heavy water is 5 times as great as for Earth.

http://www.realclearscience.com/2012/12 … 50332.html

This could indicate that Mars has lost 4/5 th's of it's original water.  If their is thick layers of ice from the Amazonian Era? deep buried, then that suggests to me that Mars had a lot of water originally,  perhaps more than the suggested ocean suggests.  If their was an ice cap in the south several miles thick, and covering an area similar to Antarctica. (Or more).

I have no proof, just speculation.

Nasa's efforts now seem to be on asteroid capture to Earth or Moon orbit, and visit.  This is an apparent adaptation to the fact that their Moon program was diverted to Mars.  So they adapted to a useful purpose, which could be helpful to Earth/Mars transportation.  Some private companies want to take this pathway, so Nasa appears to be blazing a trail.   I think they always said the Moon first, then from that experience Mars.  Now, they intend to create a temporary moon of the Moon, and do a similar thing.

SpaceX appears to aim at Earth to LEO, and beyond that to Mars.  However, I fail to see why they would not /could not Segway to the Moon at some point.

Other upcoming private concerns appear to be specifically aimed at the Moon, and also some national space programs.

Looking at the long term, it looks like a glass half full and filling up to me.

Here is a similar article:
http://phys.org/news/2015-03-mars-earth … ocean.html

You drew me in on this.

I suppose that at some best time Mars could have had an ocean as is indicated.

I believe it also had a planet wide glacier, perhaps before that similar to Ceres, but to a lesser magnitude.
I agree that it seems to be indicated that much water has been lost.

They still don't know how Mars could be warm enough for rivers.  I suppose it might have been if an unusual greenhouse effect was in existence.

However, under Antarctica and Greenland are rivers.  For Mars, imagine volcanic ash blanketing this planet wide glacier, explosive processes.

In the dry valleys, all it takes is a couple of weeks of warmer temperatures, and sunlight, and ice covered lakes can be filled.  And of course under our ice caps, ground heat and pressure can make liquid water.

I feel that since Mars has more lighter elements than Earth, it should have earlier also had more water than Earth.  Again Ceres suggests this.
It is thought by some that asteroids and comets started as mudballs, with a icy crust.  Radioactive materials could keep even them partially liquid for millions of years.

If mudballs hit the Earth and gave it water, then why is it unreasonable to think that more of them would have impacted Mars?  Mars is closer to the original reservoir.

Life supposedly showing up just after the great bombardment on Earth, suggests something to me.

I think it is likely that the mudballs were generally infected with life, and that it tried to infect every planet in the solar system.  We will perhaps find out about that in time.

I am actually not much in the mood for posting just now, but I had to do this one.

I ran across an article in the "New Scientist" that talks about bacteria that eat and breath electrons.  You can query for it if you like.
I think I will play it safe and not link directly to it.  No harm was intended, but perhaps that is the better way to handle it.

I had also previously found articles that indicate that under UV light many materials will develop an electrical potential.

UV being unfriendly to normal Earth life, I have thought that even so, under soil particles heated, and where salt may help to depress the melting point of water, and to attract moisture.  Say duracrust.

And I also recall that supposedly UV stimulated materials may "Spark" with electrical discharge.  That as well as feeding or providing for breathing for such micro-organisms might momentarily warm them as well.

I hesitate to deviate, or to post on the same topic under life support, but I do wonder if humans having a significant electric generating machinery, might load level that (Use excess capacity) to generate a biosource from their periodic excess of electricity.

On a side note I recall speculating on electrically driven life many many years ago, and then reading a scientific article that stated absolutely that electricity was so hostile to life that life could never use it   So, that's an example of why things don't happen some times.  Happily it eventually happened in this case.

I might also suggest that for moons traveling through a parent planets magnetic field with radiation and solar flux acting as well, ground currents are not out of the question.  And if they traveled into the ground, then to perhaps melt some water, a habitat for life on those moons, maybe.  Europa, Ganymede?

Thanks for cheering me up
Good chances I will be dead first anyway.  Feel sorry for everyone else.  Yes there could be a chance, but have you had a look at the best and brightest?  Granted I am closer to 85 than 130, but as the article says, that won't matter much.

On the bright side, I have taken a look at the whole human race, it's history, and the patterns I see indicate a guiding force.  I won't go any further than that.  But I look at who is at the rudder and indeed how they (Don't) self limit, always find a reason to violate self restraint, As I said, maybe it won't be my problem.

I feel kind of sorry for the little ones though.  I hope that pattern I think I noticed will feel sorry for them also.

Well I will wish them success.  I expect that if they do go for it, a swarm of humans and there robotic offspring could augment that nations and businesses are doing in space.  Providing another aspect unique to non-national, and not necessarily profit harvesting (Until success).

While I was coming up with the above response, it occurred to me that factory automation followed anchored robotics is a bit like sponges and other anchored sea organisms which wait for their raw materials to float/swim by.

We are not quite to the level of paying self actuated robots which alter/manufacture objects, but it is likely to come when it does come to Earth, it would not be that hard to transfer it to other worlds.

I feel as though you might be baiting me, but that's alright.
It seems that you think that Titan might be suitable for a powered descent.

I wonder though, if it some point it becomes an economic decision?  SpaceX is supposing a hoped for cost of $500/pound of mass from Earths surface to orbit.  When is fuel so cheep that you might begin to think No I don't want to rely on dangerous pushed to the limits methods for aerocapture?

The Mars colonial (I don't like the word colonial because of the historical baggage it carries, but it is their words) transport is supposed to carry up to 100 persons.  I can't imagine they intend to aerocapture that.  It's mass to surface area ratio would not be as favorable as a ship to send say 4 people in a smaller ship.  So they must intend to power to orbit, and then either power all the way down, or use a reusable transport with heat shield and canted engines.  In either case, they have partially or totally used a powered descent to get from Mars intercept orbit to Mars surface.

The stuff I presented this weekend was mostly B.S. on my part.  I thought there was little harm in it since very few people were at that time using the site.  However given the budget, even that might work.

I have been put off by the descriptions of the rigors that are imposed by the one method that seems to be most popular, that apparently is total aerocapture for the humans for reasons of radiation and presumed constraints on mass.  One of our most genuine experts seems to think that there is a major impediment to landing a large ship.  I trust that that person knows what that person is talking about.

But I am wondering if the thinking is so locked into the Apollo methods, the presumed SLS methods that they do not consider the changes that might come from lower cost fuel and Oxygen?

But I know that in the end facts are facts.  You can't just say that you will sprout wings and fly to Mars.

Even so, since you concede that Titan might allow a powered descent, how about consideration of a hybrid method for Mars.  A partial powered change in speed, might give you more liberties for the mass of the object that you hope to land, and also for the materials that it is constructed from.

Just a continuation of extreme speculation.
Returning to your original solution of a dynamic sun blocker in front of the planet, then utilizing the magnetic field of the planet that I presume will be allowed to expand.  The most valuable asset will be the ability of the magnetic field and surface materials to generate water, for as long as the solar wind and planet Mercury exist.  That is at least a billion years.

For giggles however, I wonder about indeed digging the maximum allowable hole(s) at one or more poles.  While the planet has a very thick rigid crust and no tectonic movements, I read that it would have Mercury quakes from the condition where the planet is shrinking as it cools.

The point being that if you wanted to continue to remove materials from the planet you would not want the average air pressure to become very high, considerably less than that of Mars.  But there would have to be limits on how deep you could dig a hole at the poles.  It is a silly notion I know, but you did speculate on mining the whole planet completely, I would think that for the purposes of having a very long term source of water, it would be better to dig holes at the poles, just maybe deep enough to support some higher atmospheric pressure within.  And to provide materials to build that dynamic sun blocker.

For Mars, which has a similar gravity field:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Mars

If the whole of the planet had an

It already has a temporary and I presume on the low end of pressure, Exosphere.  If that were improved to be the highest level for an Exosphere. then the holes would need to be at least

deep to even think of supporting ice covered water pools.

That's pretty deep.  But if it was like a strip mining operation, maybe.  I simply don't know.  But if you could do it then you would have a location more favorable to humans, with perhaps sufficient radiation protection (Along with the magnetic field?).  And an atmosphere to do aerocapture of arriving spacecraft.  And also most likely a natural collection point for water generated by the incorporation of solar wind into the magnetic field where it the Hydrogen would combine with Oxygen from rocks, or from the puddle of atmosphere you would have at the poles.

They will have to profile their system, to find out what the actual expectations can be.

Yes they will have to inspect, and sometimes replace parts.

It is not a totally free booster to reuse.

I would think that they might phase them.  Use the newest best ones to launch more critical loads, and if there is such, use the old ones to launch less critical loads.  Less critical loads might be fuel and Oxygen to low Earth orbit.  Storage of such to a purpose not yet defined, but perhaps to come.

And then I have been thinking about it because of your response, what about the Moon?  As these things become less qualified for flight, perhaps use a falcon heavy without a payload, the middle booster being the marginal one.  The notion being that that one could be outfitted with a different set of landing legs, which would only be folded up once.  Send it to the Moon, where it's use would no longer involve passing through the atmosphere up and down, and also where it's engines could be operated at a lower thrust level to compensate for their marginal trust levels.

So I presume the would be lifting loads like LOX manufactured on the Moons surface.  The tanks perhaps could be wheeled over and attached to the landing legs, to make the assembly less tipsy?

Similarly of course perhaps metals could be lifted, perhaps materials suitable for a 3D printing process?

I think there would be less options for repairs, perhaps if one was no longer suitable for that purpose, it would just go to junk on the Moon, or if it could it might lift itself to a "L" location to serve a purpose.  Maybe even still as a booster that does not land.  But that would only apply if it could still do valuable work.  It seems less likely that that 3rd option would be workable.

So SpaceX might just have the Moon in it's pocket as well, if they prove their system.

I don't think they will wait for the Moon LOX to go to Mars however, but eventually it might be a part of a larger transport effort.

I am trying to use your acronyms.  Perhaps that will please the hosts.

O.K.

It's not unthinkable, for a future trans human descendent population.

You made me think about it.

Once you did L1, you might as well make it into a space community with synthetic gravity habitats.  Then that has to fly in front of Mercury, as you have said, maintaining station with the assistance of solar energy, photons and/or the solar wind.

If they have a desire to simulate Earth on Mercury, then that might be possible.

You have overlooked the magnetic field of Mercury as an asset so far though.  I would think with the device being in L1, it could expand more than it is, and between the L1 protection and the Magnetic field, circumstances to keep an atmosphere would be improved.  As it is, the magnetic field temporarily captures Hydrogen, and facilitates the formation of water in the Exosphere of Mercury, but a bit of help from comets wouldn't hurt.

The situation on such a terraformed Mercury, would then however depend on good behavior of the inhabitants in L1.  Human nature historically tends to foster cultural fracturing, and when that reaches storm level, typically a binary conflict behavior.  This is apparently part of our self or directed (From somewhere) crafting/evolution process, to direct the human race(s) to a different character.  Non-Adaptive characteristics are reduced, and adaptive characteristics favored.

Perhaps Mercury would be a park/mining planet, which the bulk of people/machines would visit.  For mining purposes, the level of terraformation would only be served by Earth desert like conditions.  So the amount of water needed would be reduced.  Perhaps the poles only would be wet enough for Earth similar environments, and the rest of the planet strip mined.

Part of worm brain "Uploaded" to a robot.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/21/tech/mci- … index.html

So, I am thinking that some time from now, a 3D printer/Robot serving as the "Queen".

Printing out little bee or ant robots.  Workers only I would think.

Then the workers go out and get grains of materials that can be "Eaten" by the "Queen" to make more workers.

Dead bees/ants recycled I presume.

But when the "Queen" malfunctioned I suppose it would have to be repaired/replaced by humans.

But even this is still far fetched.  However I might suggest that by "Digesting" a grain of soil material at a time it might be possible to find ways to purify the materials at a low energy cost.

Still a long way off though I think.

But such robots would not scare me very much, since their replication machines would be dependent on humans, and at most they would have a hive mind, and no stingers.

I suppose Venus and Titan might be a good place for it.  In the case of Venus, perhaps they would not so much gather materials but construct a floating hive.  The 3D printer would have to absorb materials from the atmosphere.  In the case of Titan, I am supposing that the energy source would have to be chemical, I recall mention of an existing one, involving Titan might use hydrogen and acetylene as an energy source

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_on_Titan

But that does not seem to me to be a very vigorous energy source.