New Mars Forums

That, falling condensate, an at the bottom, steam engines.

And then there are windmills.  Just for giggles, I have included a reference to a very unconventional wind generator.

http://www.gizmag.com/ewicon-bladeless- … ine/26907/

It uses an excitation charge and water droplets and wind to generate electrical energy.  Don't know if this would make sense on Venus.

Perhaps a method would be to first direct Sulfuric Acid/Water down to a heat where it would decompose into H2O & S2 vapors, and then bring that back up and cool it down to condense the H2O and separate out the S2 for sequestering.  Then drop the H20 down the tower, generating electricity.

Then you might do the water droplet thing for generating electricity, but the droplets would vaporize quite fast I suspect, so perhaps it might be possible to;

Heat the water to steam, give the steam a positive electric charge. Vent the steam to atmosphere, at a location where the wind will pull the positively charged steam away, presumably generating additional electrical power.

However, how much electricity is needed?  I think more conventional windmills attached to the tower would generate plenty, so drop the water all the way down to the surface of Venus in insulated pipes, and use it for cooling, and to power steam powered robots.

Or as I think you might have been moving, generate electricity with water moving down pipes, and then generate power with hot steam moving up pipes?

Or other schemes.

As I see it, the next few generations of humans should be considered ambitious, if they would have towers, floating cities (Oops! hope they don't crash into each other), and as mentioned in another thread floating "Ping-Pong" balls.

I would also presume that they would develop high temperature robots that could work on the surface.

Part of the surface is a Supercritical CO2 oven, which implies that opportunities for material wealth for humans could be associated with it.  Humans will just have to figure that out, just like they are presumed to eventually master stone tools.

Energy sources at the surface would presumably be nuclear (Either one), Wind, or Steam.

One item such robots could manufacture might be floating "Ping-Pong" balls.  Of whatever materials.  Antius made a suggestion on another thread.  It would have to be metal and/or silicates.  Alternately plastics if manufactured higher up where lower temperatures prevail.

Supposing manufactured on the surface with Metal/Silicates, the mass produced, injected with Nitrogen and released to float up to the clouds, where their surfaces would be moistened.  Of course nutrients are also needed, and protection from U.V. may be needed.

The clouds of Venus I believe are more Sulfuric acid at the colder tops, where Verga can form.  This rain may fall down far enough in the atmosphere where the Sulfuric Acid vapor resulting will also decompose into SO2 and H2O.  The H2O rises to the lower clouds, and eventually is recombined with SO2 to form Acid Rain again.

If the towers could suck in the upper cloud layer Sulfuric Acid and push it down the tower, then the elevated temperatures encountered would decompose the Sulfuric Acid to SO2, and H2O.  The SO2 could be sequestered into holding tanks far below, where the air pressure is very high.  The H2O might be conducted upwards and condensed to water, and that water might be allowed to fall all the way down to the bottom of the towers, generating electricity.  Of course thermal insulation on the pipes needed.

Once the water was at the bottom of the tower in an insulated tank on the surface of Venus, can I presume it can be used to power steam engines?  Superhot steam engines to power robots?

As I have indicated on another thread, I see the potential that the Ping-Pong balls with Algae growing on their surfaces could be harvested, the organic matter extracted and the Ping-Pong balls reused.

The hardest part of this is to deal with the U.V. I think.  But then unlike Mars, there will be a significant atmosphere above them.  Perhaps some algae could adapt to high U.V.?

Anyway, I don't intend a full terraform.

If you got a bunch of extra water at massive expense and had also waited hundreds/thousands of years for Venus to cool off on the surface, dumping large quantities of water on its surface would in my opinion result in massive super volcanos, of such a magnitude that they would be a danger to human survival on the planet.

I glad to get the eggs, I don't need to kill and eat the goose.

All good thoughts.

Just now I am working in a particular direction, perhaps you can help.

I do accept that a constructed building could substitute for a cave.  Particularly if the inflatable habitat is capable of holding its own air pressure with or with out the rock/masonary overcoat.

Sandstone caves most likely restricts you to certain locations on the equator, such as Mt. Sharp.

So, in the case of sandstone, I am thinking of a cave carved into the mountain (Many of them in time).

Before the inflatable insert is deployed to fill the cave, of course there would be an open portal, that the excavation was started from and that the removed material exited through.  In addition, at the back of the cave would  be a narrow tunnel, that could connect many of these constructions with each other (The tunnels, not having portals to the outside).

The inflatable insert would be deployed.  It would have two paths for humans to enter and exit.  Perhaps an air lock on each one, or perhaps just a door for the interior connection to the tunnels.

While each insert is intended to be highly safe from depressurization, the tunnels will be less safe.  Perhaps even just sealed with a sealant, and perhaps web material.

So after each of these was created, then attach an inflatable greenhouse to the outside airlock.

You said:

The greenhouse will only be partially pressurized.  Both the inflated hab and the greenhouse will be filled with a N2 & O2 mix.

The greenhouse itself will need an airlock exit to the outside.

It should be possible to pump "Air" from the Greenhouse into the inflatable hab.  Of course this would allow the movement of Oxygen from greenhouse plants to the humans who need it.  CO2 from the hab could be vented to the greenhouse or outside, and also excess "Air" could be vented to the greenhouse.  During times of plant growth, outside air could be injected into the greenhouse at slow rates, and this could help in the collection of Nitrogen, if in fact scrubbed CO2 concentrate could be vented from the inflatable hab to the outside.

It is my intention that both the inflatable hab and greenhouse will operate at variable air pressures.

So, if humans were planning to do an EVA outside on the surface of Mars, first, the greenhouse would be pumped down to a minimum value that the plants could be tolerated.  The "Air" would be pumped from the greenhouse into the hab (slowly).

This would allow a minimum differential pressure between the greenhouse and the outside, making the use of that airlock less resource consuming.  After the work outside was done, tools and machinery could be deposited in an appropriate area of the greenhouse, and the suited persons would be in the greenhouse also, and then air would be vented carefully from the inflatable hab into the greenhouse.  Enough to allow for liquid wash water.  So wet washing of toxins off from suits an equipment would be possible.  The persons would return into the inflatable hab, and the greenhouse would be pressurized slowly to the optimal pressure for plant growth.

I do understand that their are good plans to reduce contamination of toxins in the human habitat, but I think this goes steps further.

If much photo agriculture could occur in low pressure greenhouses on Mars, then perhaps more effort could be devoted to habitat for humans.  Such habitat might include some windows, and perhaps artificial lighting for special plants.

I am wondering about these familiar items:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BA_330

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevlar

Where I am going with this, is can you make habitat walls such as for the expandable modules, but not bother with the expansion thing?

Could the materials such as Kevlar be largely manufactured on Mars largely from atmospheric gasses and water, and perhaps printed into sheets with the evil 3D printer tech?

Also it seems like if you were to carve sandstone caves, this tech could make a very good airtight lining for such caves.  Wouldn't have to be 18 inches thick in that case either.  However on second thought, perhaps expansion would be a good option, where you would carve a cave, and then insert the unexpanded section, and then expand it to fill the whole cave.  Again 18 inches not needed for such a method, I would think.

I guess there is a difference in our visions.  You seem to lock onto a certain end situation for Venus, I am much more interested in the first "Buy In".  That is, I would be most interested in two polar communities, sequestering SO2, so as to deactivate the acid rain.

Also about the towers, I am not sure that pressurization has to be the end game on Venus.  I suspect that it has already been mentioned, but the best places to store unwanted substances would be lower down where the atmosphere is quite dense.  However to keep the towers erect, I see no problem with involving lighter than air sections.  N2 & O2 where temps are low.  N2 where temperatures are high.  Helium and/or Hydrogen where it was suitable.  In other words make each section neutral buoyancy (Approximately) by different gas mixes used to lift the solid materials of the apparatus itself.

As for lighting, yes your scheme could be valid, it by no means excludes other options as potentially valid as well.

I am quite excited by the notion that such methods might yield a place in space/time where an offshoot of humanity might escape molestation by cultural vampires bent on extracting life forces from a presumed inventive sub population.  Not putting all the eggs in one basket so to speak, and fighting against devolution of the human mind.

With or without the possibility of ice reservoirs near the surface. (But I read that the Mariner Rift Valley floor may cover vast fields of ancient ice).

In spite of such a hope, I suggest "Dry Wells".

The idea being that since the typical Martian equatorial day is bone dry, but often the nighttime air reaches saturation or close to it, I would expect that the soil a few feet down may hold a humidity which is about 50% Rh.

Hoping to drill wells and pull up liquid water is not likely to be feasible in the first years of a settlement, it would require too much effort.  Plus it might not work, and it might just pull up brine.

Mining water ice requires you to be at high latitude, and therefor impose a penalty of a harsher climate.  Also mining ice will be labor intensive, and also require heavy machinery.

I would like to find a location of regolith where coarser crushed rock is covered by a top layer of fines plugging to some extent the communion of air above the surface with air in the Regolith.  Or a crack which extends downward between two enormous slabs of bedrock.  Here, again I would hope and expect that the top of the crack would be plugged by small stone, and fines (Martian dust).

Digging a "Well" into that might allow the extraction of sub-surface air, and air which I presume is enriched with water vapor relative to the daytime.

While the nighttime may have greater than 50% RH at the coldest period of the night, the air will be quite cold, and so in reality perhaps hold less actual water than subsurface air at a cold temperature? and ~50% RH. 

Further, during the night, it is hard to obtain energy to pull a vacuum on a "Dry Well".  During the day, you may have solar energy, and so could pull air out of a "Dry Well" and compress it to obtain water.  However, why not make a "Shed" out of thermally conductive materials, and have it filled with cold rocks.  This could likely be accomplished by simply piling up some rocks, and putting a vapor blocking film over them as a roof, and bonding the edges of the film with the Martian surface by piling soil on those edges.  I would think the film should be reflective to sunlight.

In the nighttime, the pile of rocks will transfer heat by natural convection of air internal to the device to the film.  The film will radiate heat to the night sky.  During the day, the solar energy collected could serve to pull a vacuum on the dry well, the air pulled out being dumped into the covered pile of cold rocks.  Ideally the rock pile device will not require pressurization, but it is not ruled out, if needed.

Obviously I hope to see rocks cooled substantially below the temperature of the Regolith. Of course the intention is to condense a frost of water on those rocks.  Porous rocks might be best, but not necessary.

Periodically during certain days, hot air from solar heating could be circulated through the rock pile to extract frost as water vapor, and then at that point, likely a forced condensation provided, most likely dominated by pressurization.

As for the Vacuum, I think it would be best to have a vacuum tank where a vacuum pump would keep it pulled down to roughing pump capabilities, >1 mb, and that a cycled valve would open and close, causing a pulsed vacuum to be experienced in the "Dry Well".  This is in the hope that pulses will reach deeper, and will actually transmit energy, warming up the Regolith, perhaps liberating more water molecules bound to rocks and soil.

Of course such a reservoir might be depleted after a while, but so are oil wells.  If it lasts a number of years, to support an equatorial starter colony, then it might be worth it.  Further, I expect that to some extent the regolith extracted from will be recharged also.  This might come from the night atmosphere, or who knows maybe a buried ice layer below, or maybe even a salty aquifer far below, and the moisture which is bound to exist above it.

Moisture flows from wet to dry, and from hot to cold.

And then again there is the electron notion strip electrons from the atmosphere of Mars, and inject them into the dry well.  This may induce positive charged ions (Some of them water vapor to flow towards the extraction point of the dry well.

There is a try Yoda, it just might not matter.

If there is indeed an ice layer too deep to mine, perhaps this can get some of it up to human use.

As far as I am concerned this could start humble.  I am building in part on what others provided.

As I see it, yes towers/containers in the polar areas.  Store Sulfur Dioxide if possible, reduce the "Acid Rain" potential of the planet.
As for the tops, they could be constructed to slowly spin on a 24 hour rotation, perhaps making the environment more compatible with the plants we have that evolved on Earth.f

How far to expand this an in what manner?  Plenty of time to figure that out.

Point is, I think this is a scheme competitive with the notion of inhabiting Mars.  Reduce the Acid, and at that point Venus may have much more to offer than Mars.

It's worth a continued think anyway.

Karov,

This opinion is worth what you paid for it 0$

You made me think about stuff, and now I have to vent it would seem.

A question is, is the Earth better in an ice age or as now?  (For supporting life).

In an ice age, the ocean levels are lower, and so the atmospheric column over them is deeper.  This fact seems to be lost on the "Snowball Earth" theory people.  Perhaps there are less deserts.  Granted ice caps themselves are not that biological.

But you suggested tinkering with the Earth.  Well, if you could reduce the amount of water on the planet, and increase the amount of N2 and O2, I think you might have more land, and less desert land, and potentially little ice cap land.

With a thicker atmosphere, then water vapor should be able to rise higher (A deeper troposphere), crossing over mountains, to water some of the deserts.  Less water would lead to shallower oceans, which the article you cited seemed to like. Ocean water with say 5000 feet shaved off, and therefore 5000 more feet of atmosphere (With or without adding more atmosphere), would be warmer, since a greater greenhouse effect would be over the ocean surfaces, but not so much over the continents.

More evaporation from the Oceans, but not as much evaporation from the tops of the continents.  The continents being more colder than now as relative to the oceans, then more precipitation.

Of course a greater greenhouse effect might be unwelcome.

The Earths moon then might be a tow mechanism to pull the Earth to orbits further from the sun if you like. 

http://phys.org/news/2010-10-solar-power-earth.html
http://www.alternative-energy-news.info … ind-power/

Thing is if you could make the Moon a solar wind sail, then you could turn the electrical load on and off as you wished, the so when harvesting electrical energy, also produce a thrust.  However you would only want to do that as it suited your master plan to move the Earth away from the sun.

Water taken from the Earth might be put into containers on the Moon.  Perhaps underground seas.

Variations on this theme might allow the moving of all terrestrial planets outward as the sun heats up.

For the planet Mars, perhaps moving it some enormous time from now into the orbit of some outer planet.  (Pick up Ceres as a moon on the way). Mars could be put into a resonance with another object that orbits an outer planet, and so be awakened geologically by tidal heating.  Further if it were slightly embedded in another planets magnetic field it might not need one itself.

This set of (Very important!!!) notions has actually perhaps two values.

1) Young children who might fixate on the mortality of our world in 1/2 billion years, could be assured that they are perfectly safe

2) If their were alien civilizations to search for around white dwarf stars, then we might speculate that they might have to cared to do the above process to save and keep using their terrestrial planets, and so this might be and understanding that might help to reveal their existence some day.

Oh well, for what it's worth anyway.  Some further imagination.  Make a Sci-Fi.  Make people happy

I am very ashamed because I apparently insulted you.  It seems to be a "Lost in translation" issue.  I have a very deep respect for what you offer for thinking.

When I think in such matters, I think in something other than verbal language.  The translations do not always work.

But a body has bones which are rigid, but still have joints.   It also has muscles.  A body without muscles (Rigidity) would be a quivering mass on the floor.  I seek a balance.  I understand that rocketry, which I understandably should be humble before, requires the best thinking.  It is risky when I venture into such areas.

I have a vague notion of what the "Electric Universe" people propose.  I am not a champion of it, they can do that.

I appreciate your rigid attitude, with just a bit of open mindedness stirred in.

You are a rocket guy, and if you don't get the formulation right, they easily do not do what you want, and most often do what you don't want, in an extreme way.

Without the open mindedness, however (In small measures) you would be doomed to go in circles forever and never be able to incorporate a new method.

Electric exists as you say, but caution is appropriate in attributing more to it than is demonstrated.  But eyes and other senses open when you have the time usually costs little.

What GW offers makes sense, as long as you have a significant wealth generating method associated with it.

Shells methods. GW mentions a microgravity garage.

Typically most people think of making one single shell, or shells bonded to each other in close proximity, to define the difference between the hostile environments of space and the places where you will shelter humans and sensitive machines.  I think different that that as well.

For a small world I am thinking of a metal shell.  It is humorous.  Old time space art as a joke might have suggested an umbrella to protect people in spacesuits on the Moon.  They were not that far off.  Think horseshoe crab.  It climbs out of the ocean onto the shore at times.

On the Moon or a smaller world, such a shell with mobility legs below it offer some chances at achieving protection of humans, mobility, and achieving a purpose.