New Mars Forums

I am not quite done on this it would seem.

I would like to make peace with RobertDyck.

He champions the frozen sea.  I am not sure about that.

I proposed sand dunes, for the reason that the dust gets blown around all over the planet, so it is supposedly rather similar all over, but not necessarily available at all locations.  However, I have seen lots of recent literature that indicates that ancient buried ice may exist still.

Maybe I am willing to entertain the notion that outflows might have left behind pockets at least, perhaps only as frozen aquifers?  I am just saying I don't dismiss the idea, but to use it you have to actually get it into your possession.

Those little damp spots, might indicate buried ice or aquifers below, so that might be a good way.

Where radar can find significant buried ice at some locations, I wonder if some type of sensor might find brine pockets that are not flowing down hills.  A damp spot that looks dry on the surface?

Anyway, with speculations that run all the way from the traditional "The equator has no buried ice and aquifers must be very deep", all the way to the speculation that "the northern hemisphere is deeply coated with sediments including massive amounts of ice even down to the Equator".

Even that the Rift Valley might have 1/2 to 1 1/2 mile deep buried ancient ice.

With all that I do not want to "Dampen" RobertDyck's thinking.

But maybe there could be a compromise.  Perhaps significant buried and accessible ice pockets exist near significant dunes, and then we could have it all.
http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/20 … anets.html

Dunes:
http://www.messagetoeagle.com/sanddunes … iUCRDiFPIU
Even small sand dunes might increase the value of a site:
http://www.geek.com/science/curiosity-w … k-1583978/
A "Splosh" crater, not that close to the Equator?  I think Tom introduced this one.
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2015/0 … e-on-mars/

I know NASA currently disapproves of sand dunes because they like to eat their rovers, but I see a small one in the link above.

The reason I am so interested in sand dunes, is I speculate that the processing of their content into desired materials might lend itself to scalable automation.

Eventually machines that eat (Shovel or vacuum it in) sand dunes, and leave behind material concentrates, and built structures.  If necessary, water might be extracted from them.  Automation increases profits, and profits are the difference between suffering and death vs prosperity.

So, I have tried to bond such a notion to what RobertDyck apparently hopes for, to increase unity of purpose.

So then a rip mended perhaps.

Oh, I don't mind if you have a favorite concept.

However, if they are doing Monkeyshines on the Moon, you might as well show them a shopping list, and see if they have anything you can afford to buy, any good deals.

We are on similar pages Teraformer, you said:

I agree.  I am afraid of the Mars "Roach Motel" outcome.  I am a plan A + option B + option C kind of person.  Don't let them get you into a cul-de-sack.

If Mars only, then I am afraid of
1) Barriers due to biological claims.
2) A dance and prance around a flag.  I have visions of each nations Cosmo/Asto person kicking the other one in the pants in a circle while circling and changing flags.  Then they all get into their spaceship, and fly home and crash into the sun.
Something stupid engineered by a mob of nutcases (Not thinking of you Spacenut) anyway.

If you go from the bottom up Moon/Asteroids/Mars, (Some exchange in position allowed), instead of the commando to Mars scheme, you have many more shots at it.  The Commando to Mars scheme can be sabotaged too easily by those who want to co-opt the funds, or simply don't want such a mission to work.

The actual limits for this topic apparently are:

Space Policy [ New posts ]

Light political discussion relevant to Mars exploration and space; outreach to politicians in the US and worldwide. Refrain from general politics.

Also from:
Index
» Interplanetary transportation
» Moon Detour, Ballistic Capture, Perhaps also Semi-Cyclers

So, I presume that the local topic can be restated as "How come we can't sell a trip to Mars to the US public?"

Logically you need the public consent to get a real politicians attention.

So, a movie "Pacific Rim" tends to be ridiculous.  But it is understandable by little boys.  Why wouldn't you build giant robots so that you could punch cross dimensional monsters that look like Godzilla?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Rim_(film)

Well, thankfully all of your potential customers are not little boys, but you need to sell to little boys anyway as well.

Lot's of rigid thinking around here.
For instance you are mostly caught in the "Mars Roach Motel".

That's the one where scientists co-opted the NASA budget to focus on unmanned missions.  (And it was right to do so as it turns out).

However, a robot that drills in rocks at a feet per day rate is not nearly as exciting as punching Godzilla with a giant robot.

My point being that I have also repeatedly worked with introducing a proposed "Ballistic" method of injection into Mars orbit, and the only one who even ever acknowledged it is GW.  Are you all so afraid of offending the Hohmann transfer gods, or do I just smell exceptionally strange?

You are rigid.  Even Mr. Bolden now acknowledges that NASA is not doing a "The Moon is off limits".

I guess the point being that Mars is an exceptional case,  it is a long time off, yet it saps the energy that could be used to do the asteroids and Moon, and the irony is that there is a good chance that if you did the asteroids and Moon, they would make a "REAL" plan to go to Mars, much more viable.

And in the mean time with robots on the Moon, you just might capture some imagination, since the time delay is ~3 seconds, and solar energy to drive them would be 2x as powerful, and the Moon is an object you can see in the sky very plainly as unique.

Mars, might be settled, but a bird in the hand is other objects for now.  That should come at no reduction in what NASA and others are doing for Mars.

I see a patchwork of a Fossilized plan for Mars and a mostly disconnected set of concepts for other objects, but no master plan, or if a master plan, a rather impractical one.

So, now I will wait and see if someone will do a "Topper" move on this.  That's always fun.  It helps you keep so many active members here.

I am physically outside of my normal haunts just now, so my replies will be patchy.

I guess you have made a fair cautionary observation.  I will take the absence of commentary as either you don't object (?), or you just want to focus on the most obvious weakness, or you just don't have more time for it.

I now understand that you are involved with an important function, and I suppose I will be pleased that you replied at all.

There is a lot of "Glass Half Empty" thinking around here.  I guess that is because if your rocket is only half full, your travelers may have a serious problem.

Sometimes, I look at "Glass Half Full".  In this case I suggest that Telepresence and the Moon were made for each other.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telepresence

It is not likely that any of the inhabitants here need the above link to understand, but for casual visitors, it might help.

So, I have seen lots of questions here, even today, "What could we do to make things happen"?

Well, to get to that Mars banana they tied to the ceiling, you might try climbing on the Moon box.

I already know that from the ISS experiments have been conducted to run a device on the surface of the Earth.

That experiment had feedback, so the operator could detect better what was actually happening to the machine operated remotely and the test items.

This suggests that more could be done by way of feedback:
http://phys.org/news/2015-10-artificial … brain.html

Yes, I know ~3 second delay from Earth surface to Moon surface, but they are already dealing with minutes delay to operate rovers on Mars.

6 Billion or more minds on the Earth, and AI, and an emerging telepresence ability.  And the Moon ~3 seconds away.

As skills that should be acquired go, I don't see why not.

As for the other two items, I guess, I will just let it all slide by if that is how you want it.

Spacenut, thanks for the pdf, I have studied it over lunch, and saved a copy for future reference.

Flag me off if you don't want me in this, no problem.

If there is any truth to the theory of cultural cycles as described in the 4th turning, you will find that the latest emerging generation is extremely materialistic, and not spiritual.  So, grand visions will not work, unless it is for a nationalistic vision, and nationalistic visions might be very dangerous just now.  Last time a generation like this was born, they fought and won WWII, and ended up with lots of materials.  They also were the ones who got us to the Moon.  A very few number of the previous baby boom generation were their leaders.
(Not my baby boom generation).

If I understand the situation on Earth, the Oceans are getting fished out, the farmland is OK for now, but the soil is thinning.  Minerals?  Who knows how long.  Fight a big war, and I would really wonder if their would be any significant material goods for the winner anyway.

So in orbit we have Satellites.  There are people already working on mining asteroids with robots, to extract water, for a material service to satellites.  The present generation likes their smart phones.  So in a way that is material goods to them, at least a thread that can be a start.

In this movie;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Walk_(2015_film)
They start by shooting a thin line from one rooftop to the other, and use that to pull over a rope, and then a cable.

NASA is indeed looking at capturing a boulder off of a asteroid, and putting it into orbit around the Moon.  This of course is fairly wise actually, because it is in line with practice of asteroid mining.  But they also are practicing for Mars.

So, perhaps later, super satellites with in orbit service robots and even some humans.  That is one "Outlet" that can be plugged into.  That implies bringing a propellant material from a non-Earth object into Earth orbit.  That can definitely be sold as hard business I think, no problem.

Then there is Platinum group metals which you guys have mentioned.  Well maybe they will get that going. 

And finally normal metals to build things in orbit.  Maybe super satellites, maybe servicing equipment.

I really don't have to propose this since it is obviously what much of the space industry has in mind.

I really think the Moon will be pulled into the act as well.  It should be at least for Oxygen, and maybe Argon (If available).

Once you do all that, or at least show evidence that things are in motion to bring it forward, then you can try to sell the notion that studying Mars like Antarctica, has basic research value, as in understanding what could happen to Earth.

And probably by then, you will have Elon Musk types doing stuff including making lots of money and also going to Mars.

But you need to focus on material goods.

The new generation will be lefties, like it or not.  The last time the "Hero's" who won WWII and put us on the Moon also set up Unions.

Does it ring a bell that we have a socialist running that seems to be doing good?  Ya buddy that was really smart to bust the unions, real smart you stupid nit-wits.

They also have the characteristic of being very group oriented, and will not tolerate cheaters.

So, that's it.  It's better than Tang anyway.

Stumbled on this:
Ceres:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 … 105955.htm

So meteoritic material suggests to me a mix of materials, a chemistry lab for industrial activity.  Nice!

Actually under those circumstances I might prefer the "Porous Silicate" model to the "Ice Layer" model, since the surface materials should contain water that can be baked out.  (Metals also)

martienne sorry about the excessive rough and tumble earlier.  Just wanted to dodge some questions.  Some things should not be said.

Tom,

Remember who "discovered" America?  Not exactly a society adverse to murder, slavery, and rule by Monarchs.

The USA initiated as a result of near Atlantic coast European peoples who were culturally influenced by Native Americans.

French, Dutch, Russians, Swedes, Germans, and of course lots of British.  The colonizers to the south (Spanish in particular) hated them and would exterminate them if they could.  A lot of these peoples came to North America, because they feared being exterminated in Europe by the Spanish and their Med. Masters.  Some also came to escape a retaliatory persecution. 

North Atlantic Republicanism/Constitutional Monarchy came into being, because of Atlantic Coastal European contact with the Native American peoples.  The founders intentionally incorporated Native American concepts into our system.

But these days the Romanisers deny all of that, and want to go back to the good old days of the Roman Empire.  (And fail again).

The (Sino) Asians are up to bat (Again).  Don't write them off, they may make very major contributions to human liberty.  But then again don't expect too much of them.  They are only human also, and we have seldom lived up to our own expectations.

Asia, what a silly concept.  Not real at all.

And by the way, looking at China, I am not sure at all that I am witnessing "One Man Rule".  Doesn't look like it to me.

Perhaps if I told you a Badtime story you could go to sleep and feel at ease?

Dear mratienne,

There once was a martienne who worried if something would happen, instead of what would happen if something didn't happen.  Martienne experienced privation and the big bad wolf ate him for dinner.

The end

martienne,
Please have patience.  I presume by your question, you do not expect me to provide the ultimate and perfect answer.
I will render a further opinion instead.
Per RobertDyck: Lovely photo.  I want that to be a frozen sea also.  I would love you to humilate me and prove that it is.  Maybe it is, hope so.  But, I see craters, they are bowl shaped, and not "Splosh" or "Yuty".  Darn!
Science, then habitation.  Sounds temporary.  Well, science might be most of what would pay the bill though.   I'm not going to argue that much.  I have seen what people have said previously on that.
I have been looking at it again, and I am going to make an argument for equatorial sand dunes.
They might be composed of Basalt, meteoric metals (Iron, Nickel), salts, water.  They might be 3D printed into things.  More on this later.
There are various features on Mars that are Ubiquitous, Unique, for avoidance, and desirable.
For avoidance, I think Robert has made a good list, it includes long high latitude winters.  I agree.
Ubiquitous features include moisture, and meteor materials and salts in the soils and CO2 and Nitrogen and Argon in the Atmosphere.
So, we will want the equator, where we can get avoidance of nasty winters, moisture in the soil, meteor materials, salts.  The equator will also allow access to CO2, N2, and Argon.
I had thought that sandstone was a unique equatorial feature of value, and it might be, but I am now thinking that sand dunes are much more the deal.
First of all you must have two likely situations.  Either the matrials can be shovelled into a wheel barrow (Or whatever), or they are glued together with ice.  If they are glued together with ice (Unlikely at the equator) thats so sad   No, thats so good (But unlikely).
But the "Sand" can be processed to extrace meteoric grains, maybe salts, and Silica? (I hope, don't know how), and finally the remainder can be mixed into a glue for 3D printing.

Further such sand dune material may be better for making mineral wool, so to make fiberglass of sorts, again with a resin/glue.  This has been recommended as a construction material on Mars by others.

If not mixed into a glue, perhaps it can be sintered into objects by high heat, perhaps solar heat?
As for science, perhaps the layering in the dunes can yield core samples that could give information on climate variability.  This would be quite usefull to the settlers anyway.
As for the salts, I hope they can be extracted, I hope that there might be a bit of some special minerals in those salts.

References:
Water in the soil;
http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/30/tech/inno … ars-water/

Meteoric Materials;
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 … 7/abstract

I will confess, I am not entirely confident with the references.  I am not sure how easy it is to liberate the water.  They used a very high heat.  However, other reading on it suggests that not all the water needs such a heating.

As for the meteoric materials, not all of it would be Iron/Nickel, and of course some that is will have deteriorated,  however, I hope that enough will be magnetic so that it can be separated off and further processed into metal.

It is also possible that if bans on visiting "Wet" places are still in place that this might be a good option to settle Mars and yet avoid those sites.  Not sure that that will happen, but it might.

Now if I dune happened to be near some nice deposit of a metal of some other useful substance, that would be very nice.

I would follow this path, until exploration indicated that there was a better option.

One dune could 3D print or Fiberglass a lot of building materials.

Otherwise, looking at the stony ground that the rovers reveal, I would hate to try to dig in that stuff honestly.  It must be very tightly packed.