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I am convinced that we CAN'T mine the Moon without an RLV, Russian rockets are too expensive.
If by RLV you mean a Lunar RLV, then I agree. Bringing down down supplies safely and returning with fuel for a transit craft, and the mined material itself (at least early) will require a craft capable of frequent trips to and from the lunar surface from lunar orbit.
But once the mining base is established, there probably won't be all that much material going up. A resupply/spare parts/crew swap module once a month at most. So we'd need a HLV to set up the base, and then a probably an upgraded EELV to maintain it.
A convient as it might be, I think it might be best if we save what little water there maybe/is for eventual settlement, however small it might be.
There is still ample O2 in the rocks, along with He3, heavy metals and PGMs. If we are really hurting for H2, capture an astroid or comet or two.
Its never been all that clear what exactly is ment by the "Shuttle Army". If we use a SDV, then we have a well trained and proven workforce already in place, along with all their equipment.
Sounds to me like an advantage.
I heard of a story a couple of months ago of how German scientist had used fats cells as stem cells, and rebuilt a part of a little girls skull.
Then theres http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u … ew_dc]this.
Smith explained that the presentations describe techniques that enable dentists to coax existing teeth into repairing and regenerating themselves, and techniques where dentists can "start from scratch."
Clearly, techniques that involve adding new tissue to already-existing teeth are "probably a bit closer on the horizon," perhaps within a "handful of years," Smith predicted. Techniques that grow teeth from scratch will likely take at least another 10 years to perfect, he added.
In some instances, researchers are trying to reprogram cells in the mouth to behave like tooth-growing cells, convincing them they have to produce new teeth, Smith explained.
Other techniques being explored involve using stem cells, which have the potential to become any type of cell or tissue. In one study being presented at the meeting, researchers successfully extracted stem cells from the pulp of adult teeth, Smith said. The next step is to examine whether it's possible to use these teeth to regenerate new dental tissue, he said.
What ever we end up doing to Mars, I just hope we don't copy Earth. Make it ecologically different. No one want to travel a quater of a billion miles to see the same old stuff.
This is exactly why we should set up shop on the moon first. All of this can be manufactured and launched from there, and we won't be 6+ months away from a critical replacement part.
Better not mention Washington then.
Sacked is a better term.
Funny story actually. The force that sacked Washington was almost completely destroyed by a freak storm that featured a tornado that seemingly spang up from the rubble of the Capital building.
I have nothing against downloading something that the industy itself broadcasts for free. Its perfectly legal to record stuff off the airwaves, and to the best of my knowledge its legal to rebroadcast it to anyone in particular.
That is all P2P is. Its the 21st century equivilent of a DJ at a block party.
The trouble with the music industry in particular is that it doesn't offer anything that isn't already out there (via radio, MTV, ect.) for free. Unlike movies, which though they can be recorded, the quality really can't match your average DVD. Perhapes if the music industry switched to multi-channel audio, the same would be true for them.
Which is not to say I don't support compensating the artists. I like the iTunes model, and if I had wads of money would probably make extensive use of it. But in the mean time I'll just listen to the radio.
While some may laugh at the old technology of the russian and for there lack of Nasa size funds. I find that they have been an ok partner as it goes for the ISS. They have done what Nasa has not since the disastorous ending of the shuttle.
They have said that they are interested in the vision but can they do much if there cash flow does not change.
http://en.rian.ru/rian/index.cfm?prd_id … o_alert=0] NON-LANDING FLIGHT TO MARS POSSIBLE BY 2014 Given sufficient funding, Russian cosmonautics can by 2014 manage an orbital flight to Mars without landing.
2018-2020 Russian cosmonautics will be ready to perform a Martian mission with landing. "But only if there is sufficient financing and cooperation with other countries of Europe are the words of a cosmonaut. Thou no name is quoted for these woeds.
I bet they could, but it would be a monumental waste of time and money.
Which is exactly why Europe is apt to give it a second thought.
You enjoyed that title way to much.
Change their orbits? Who would be so crazy as to do that? These are not little rock piles, they are miles across and have huge masses. Phobos won't crash into Mars for something like 50 million years, so I doubt anyone will worry about its robit any time soon.
-- RobS
Without knowing its make up theres no real way to know how long its got. If its a loose collection of rocks, tidal forces in theory could tear it to sheds tommorrow, making any orbital intertion very dangerous.
But that wouldn't answer the eternal question.
Is it a moon, or is it a space station? :;):
Of course with time and if significant resources are found, it would be worth it to change the orbit.
Actually one of them, I forgot which, has a decaying orbit already, so we more or less have to eventually.
I wonder why Japan wants to spend so much money, It certainly indicates plans greater than just to build a lunar base. And so what could it be......Mineral Mining :?
The fact that Japan is short of natural resources is nothing new.
Hopefully Pearl Harbor will get by unscathed this time.
Great. More power to them. I'd love to see NASA and the JAXA work hand in hand in the conquest of the Moon. I just hope the US Congress doesn't throw a monkey wrench in the whole thing.
Any chance theres a downloadable link?
What proper colonization requires is a goverment representing mankind, or at least one representing the home countries of those going beyond.
A United States of Earth if you will, modeled on the US and EU consitutions, that recognises the colonies as a "nation" that has all rights of all the other nations, in it.
http://en.rian.ru/rian/index.cfm?prd_id … ert=0]This article addresses this point.
"Today we have some new ideas concerning the prospects of Russian-U.S. cooperation in the research of the Moon and Mars, for instance, the development of energy resources of the Moon," Mr. Prikhodko said.
According to him, Vladimir Putin and George Bush are to discuss the issues of space cooperation, in particular, from the point of view of the expansion of the legal basis for the implementation of joint projects.
How much you want to bet the issue won't make it to CNN. :;):
If we could come away with a excemption for space agency finiacial cooperation in the Iranian reactor issue, that would be great.
Though its unlikely given the attention Iran is recieving right now.
So if we eat all the food and have no new seeds to plant; farming whether in 0g, on the moon, or on mars will matter little. What research has been done on the pollination systems for these conditions is the next step, it would appear.
So we save a couple Strawberrys for seeds. It doesn't strike me as a dealbraker.
I wouldn't think pollination would be too hard either.
Why are we getting water from Mars when there is plenty of water rich astroids around that we only have to deliver once?
Old Martian saying, "Politicans worry about the words on paper, Martians worry about the dust in the hab."
Well, I don't think its that old. :;):
What proper colonization requires is a goverment representing mankind, or at least one representing the home countries of those going beyond.
A United States of Earth if you will, modeled on the US and EU consitutions, that recognises the colonies as a "nation" that has all rights of all the other nations, in it.
Do they come with defibulators?
Then were not doing enough to inform people of just how much MRI's, tang, and $2 billion dolar pens affect their daily lives.
Maybe a couple ISRU units developed to build structures out of Lunar/Martian dirt can do the same in the poor regions of the Earth. Maybe the radioactive shielding developed for space suits can be added to thermal isolation in houses and cut canser rates in half.
Maybe (theres a high probability) I'm preaching to the choir!
This is old but perhaps the best info I've seen regarding the various "spirals" that the CEV will travel.
http://prod.nais.nasa.gov/eps/eps_data/ … c]Glossery
Exploration Spiral 1 (Crew Transportation System Earth Orbit Mission) – Encompasses the capabilities necessary to insert humans into Earth orbit and return them safely to Earth, employing a post-Space Shuttle flight system. A programmatic constraint has been imposed on Spiral 1: ”NASA shall conduct the initial test flight for the Crew Exploration Vehicle before the end of the decade in order to provide an operational capability to support human exploration missions no later than 2014”. The flight elements of the Exploration Spiral 1 Crew Transportation System are the Crew Exploration Vehicle and Crew Launch Vehicle. Robotic Precursor Missions that are scheduled to launch prior to the Earth orbit demonstration of the Spiral 1 CTS are considered Exploration Spiral 1 missions.
Exploration Spiral 2 (Extended-Duration Lunar Campaign) – Encompasses the capabilities necessary to execute extended-duration human lunar exploration. Extended duration lunar missions will be 4-14 days in duration on the lunar surface, and do not require pre-deployed surface systems (e.g., Habitation Module or Surface Power). A programmatic constraint has been imposed on Spiral 2: “NASA shall conduct the first extended human expedition to the lunar surface as early as 2015, but no later than the year 2020, in preparation for human exploration of Mars and other destinations”. Robotic Precursor Missions scheduled to launch after the Spiral 1 CTS flight demonstration, and prior to the first Spiral 3 Lunar mission are considered Exploration Spiral 2 missions.
Exploration Spiral 3 (Long-Duration Lunar Campaign) – Encompasses the capabilities necessary to execute a long-duration human lunar exploration campaign. This campaign requires development of extensive surface systems (e.g., habitation and surface power system), and long-duration lunar-vicinity parking capability of the crew transportation system. Long-duration lunar missions will extend from 14-98 days. Robotic Precursor Missions that are scheduled to launch after the last Spiral 2 extended- duration lunar mission, and prior to the initial Exploration Spiral 4 mission are considered Exploration Spiral 3 missions.
Exploration Spiral 4 (Crew Transportation System Mars Flyby) – Encompasses the capabilities to conduct a Mars flyby mission using elements of the Human-Mars Crew Transportation System. Upon completion of successful Mars flyby(s), Exploration Spiral 5 will commence. Robotic Precursor Missions scheduled to launch prior to the first Human-Martian surface mission are considered Spiral 4 missions.
Exploration Spiral 5 (Human Mars Surface Campaign) – Spiral 5 encompasses the capabilities necessary to execute human Mars exploration missions. Robotic Precursor Missions scheduled to launch after the final Mars flyby mission, and prior to the start of Exploration Spiral 6 (TBD content) are considered Spiral 5 missions.
A couple of personal thoughts...
If the CEV turns out to be reusable, a handful of spiral 1 class CEV's can be used indefinitely for ISS or future space station operations for only the operations and cost of launcher.
The best way to accomplish our spiral 2 & 3 objectives maybe to just create an add-on to the spiral 1 CEV in the from of a reusable Lander. This can be left in Lunar or LEO, and refueled either by a separate cargo mission or for free once we get lunar fuel production up and running.
Spiral 4 or 5 would present a perfect opportunity to test out key technology needed in manned lander by performing sample return missions with it. Take your basic spiral 1 CEV, gut it of life support systems, and fill it with sample racks, and some method of getting the samples to the top of the stack. Add your prototype Martian lander, with whatever rover/excavator needed to collect the samples, and send it on its way. It performs its mission, blasts off, and returns to earth in the now well tested CEV, hopefully avoiding any messy Genesis repeats. You can take it one step further by adding the fuel production technology Zubrin developed, and sending it with an inflatable sample storage ship, and having it land at one spot, operate for a month gathering samples and fuel, close up shop and take off, dropping off its samples and a little bit of fuel, a land at its next spot, rinse and repeat until the next earth return window, and use the fuel you've been gathering to return to earth. You'll need an orbital or lunar facility to look at the samples, or some other lander, but that’s a small price to pay for TONS of samples from all over the planet. And when you’re all done you'll have put the Lander well through its paces.
Everyone will benifit from a manned Mars exploration program, just as everyone has benifited from the current space program.
People just can't expect instant gratification.