New Mars Forums

Very good stuff.  Much of it I had not thought about.

I think in many ways our ways are not parallel exactly but they converge very closely where it matters.

I would think that if the intention was to put humans on Mars, then:

1) Backpacker visits, outposts.
2) Establish a full habitation at most favored locations. 
*In my ideal, this would be small "Towns" near the equator, and the beginnings of Megga-Cities at locations of deep ice laden sediments.
-If the Northern Hemisphere is a deep basin partially filled with ice and other sediments from a collapsed Hydrosphere/Atmosphere, then a partially underground city started at a favorable location there.  It is even possible that the start would be within the;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valles_Marineris

Fossil Ice in Valles Marineris:
http://www.sciences.univ-nantes.fr/lpgn … 85&lang=en
http://www.dmzone.org/papers/Gourroncetal2014_VM.pdf
Interestingly this one had the NASA emblem on the page, but not when I paste it here:
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2014Geomo.204..235G
I really like this one:
https://planetarygeomorphology.wordpres … eris-mars/
And just observe the brilliance of this guy!
http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7291

To me the rift valley information suggests that during the final phases of the transition, a troposphere still existed in the low basins, which would include the Northern Hemisphere, and the Valles Marineris, and that the areas above that were already approaching conditions similar to those on Mars today.

So, returning to habitation and terraformation, as I see it:
Once you start your mega-city in the fossil ice deposits somewhere, the atmosphere is primarily a raw materials resource.  Carbon and Oxygen, primarily Carbon. 

Of course as you have indicated it is also to a degree a radiation shield.

So, in order to make your underground mega-city with solar towers with heliostats, you will use a fair amount of materials incorporating Carbon and Hydrogen in their structures.  You will generate hydrocarbon pollution to the atmosphere naturally.  (Or unnaturally if you prefer to say it).

So, you will have a bias to begin ridding Mars of CO2 condensation, by warming, to bring the atmospheric pressure up to 11 mb CO2.

If desired, at first and if affordable they may also manufacture and release a small amount of super greenhouse gasses to start the process up sooner.

At that point I have read that in addition to not having your seasonal CO2 caps anymore, you would have real snowfalls, and snowmelts and temporary streams.  For the southern hemisphere low latitudes this will be valuable as you could create a method to capture those snow melts and use the water locally perhaps in a mining operation for instance.  Your minerals will be where they are, and if the Northern Hemisphere is covered with sediments, it means that many minerals will not be accessible there.

Back to the Mega-city:
Although other solar methods are not against the law , I focus on bio-solar towers with heliostats.  Among the things to grow being spirulina, which is eatable, and will generate oodles of Oxygen, and will capture Carbon from compressed atmosphere, and Hydrogen from water to produce hydrocarbons which may be used to create city structure under the ice and in sandstone under the ice.

So, you harvest Carbon from the atmosphere, Hydrogen from water ice, release O2 to the atmosphere, build a very massive underground mega-city which might cover 1/2 of the planet.  You import massive amounts of people from Earth (If you have massive advances in technology).

You end up with a 11 mb atmosphere of O2 with a pinch of Nitrogen, Argon, and Carbon Dioxide, and;

You get an Ozone layer (I hope) and;

You may grow Lichens, Cyanobacteria, Algae on the open surface.

Should the inhabitants elect to up the greenhouse effect and release more CO2 from the ground (Presumably available), or get it from asteroids, then the atmosphere could be brought up to higher levels of pressure.  But that would be up to the inhabitants.

I will point out to others that 11 mb of O2 should leave Mars approximately as cold as 7 mb CO2, so if going to a O2 atmosphere, I think you would want to bring it up to 22 mb O2 minimum in order to sustain snowfalls, snow melts, and temporary streams.

22 mb O2 would do a little more perhaps to reduce the temperature swings day and night, and would also circulate heat from equator to poles a little more, but not that much.

I like that information.

I would like to try to support it from another direction.

It has for a very long time bothered me that the average surface pressure of Mars is very near the triple point of water.

Given enough time after the proposed atmospheric collapse, the atmosphere should oscillate around a new stable situation.

Currently without knowing more, I would speculate that it oscillates around the triple point of water.  I really am not sure why.

There are two possibilities that I can think of.

1) There is no such reservoir like what you suggest, and the air has been leaking at some linear or logarithmic rate over time since the magnetic field stopped protecting the planet, and we just happened to send probes to the planet, just at the point in time where the remnant atmospheric pressure was at the triple point of water.   If this were true and remained true forward in time it should only be a relatively short period of time before Mars is as airless as the Moon (Unless there is some volcanism still).

2) There is a subsurface reservoir which keeps the atmosphere replenished at the triple point of water, and the pressure of Mars has been oscillating around that pressure for billions of years.  Possibly an impact event has temporarily modified the situation and bumped the atmospheric pressure up, but for the most part the pressure has been around 6 mb on average for quite some time.

I think that #1 is unlikely.  The chances are small.

I had considered it possible that the polar ice caps and buried ice have kept the atmosphere inflated.  However they supposedly move about from poles to Equator over time.  Maybe?

I think it is more likely that a slab of ice half the size of the planet several miles/kilometers thick, composed of water ice, CO2, and Clathrates of Nitrogen and CO2 would be able to keep that regulation going. 

Perhaps I should get off your side before I stink your work up.  I am still not satisfied I understand how #2 could work, but I really think #1 is improbable.

As for CO2 reservoirs, I recall that one of the Radar mappers found a flat surface under ice, that resembled an underground lake under ice.
But the temperatures were too cold.  I think you might want to think Carbonated water, or even liquid CO2.  Perhaps it might be.

This is why I want to have a full spectrum interest.  (It was here anyway).  Moon, Asteroids, Mars.

The news business makes money off of news.  This means they have to skew the news in a manic depressive way to get the most they can.
Just now they are going to run with this in the direction of depressive.

You have to expect this, and put a saddle on it, and ride it.

And your strategy for Mars has to be generalized enough to survive it.

I think the Antarctic Scientific mission model you people have provided is a logical candidate for a method which could endure such negative news.  Once you have boots on the ground, and more information and new ideas, then a pathway to terraforming of some type will emerge.

Barter, that's interesting.  It seems that before you can have a cash system, or if cash does not work, then you make deals.

I have been thinking of sources of starter cash for outer space.  Most or all are from other peoples ideas.

1) Servicing Earth Satellites.
2) Hosting Scientists sponsored by entities on Earth.  On Mars or the Moon, but most likely Mars.
3) Selling returned objects as gift items.
4) Providing transport for equipment and people.
5) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philanthropy
#5, why not.  it is a cause like save the whales or whatever, donations.
6) Getting material goods to Service Earth Satellites.  (Fuel).
7) Getting Metals down to Earth worth the bother.
8) Recreation for the wealthy, and interested types.
9) Land speculation/Lease speculation.

This is a deviation from Profits, but I think it has been established that the profit systems have to eventually tie to some cash linkages.

Any others?

Life on Mars without domes will not be a problem for people for quite some time to come anyway.

I recall that from the polar ice caps, the south cap in particular, Verified CO2 should be enough to raise the average from 5.5 to 11 mb.
This is supposed to be enough for snow, and with snow, can exist temporary melt streams.

The soil contains more if I am to believe the experts, so perhaps even though not enough for a non-pressure suit situation, enough for more permanent streams, and perhaps temporary ponds and lakes.

But I will deviate from that conversation and ask you to consider reading these references:

Deep layers of water ice and sediments over the entire northern hemisphere:
http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/sc … marswater/

Hypersaline Lake Nitrous Oxide Production:
Without Life:
http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v3/n … eo847.html
In the presence of life at very cold temperatures:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3528574/
Nitrous Oxide Clathrates:
https://www.novapublishers.com/catalog/ … ad3598a587

So the first reference suggests that a "Third" reservoir of water is present.
The second and third reference suggest that Nitrous Oxide is formed in the presence of brine wetted soil.
The fourth reference suggests that Nitrous Oxide Clathrate could be present.

If this optimistic situation is true, then when the atmosphere of Mars began to thin and cool, the water pooled as ice in the northern hemisphere.  Very deep ice.  Very Very Deep.  With soil sediments being mixed in.

This process would not have been overnight.  So there would have been cold hypersaline lakes and seas, and still some snowfall, and daily or seasonal melts during transition.  This would have transported some of the atmospheric gasses into the reservoirs below.  There, perhaps action with the soil would have generated Nitrous Oxide, and cold and pressure may have preserved some of it as Clathrate.

I hate going out on a limb like this, but it appears that there are three reservoirs.

The first is the original common one, and then there was a split, where a large bulk (I hope) became buried underground, and the remainder gradually drained into space, leaving a residual atmosphere.

So the truth lies somewhere between this optimistic scenario and the scenario which was stated on the evidence of Mavin.

I am pulling for the 2 mile deep sediments of ice and soil in the Northern hemisphere, and by the way I have seen articles that indicate that it is present in the rift valley as well as part of that situation.

Imagine a system of above and below ground cities connected by buried hyperloops.

Never-the-less, although I am pulling for Mars to be a great place to set up shop, I like the Moon for reasons like this Mavin information.

Probable unwanted help, but ....
http://www.medicaldaily.com/glass-car-w … kin-255398

Granted, likely more expensive, but the saying is you get what you pay for.

Maybe the costs can ultimately go down with 3D printing:
http://www.theverge.com/2015/8/21/91862 … ted-matter
http://www.technologyreview.com/news/54 … s-barrier/

So how would you get the plastic layer in there?  I don't know.  How do they do it for windshields, and why does the windshield block UV?

And I am also wondering why you can't have UV colored glass, the same as you can have red or blue glass?

I'm not picking on you guys, just compulsive on these types of things I guess.

Then there is this: (Ice House)
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/nasa-picks-3d- … rs-1521885

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Of course the ice house will not be suitable for low latitudes.  But I wonder what the thinking would be on the EFTE plastic?  Expensive as implied in previous dialog I suppose.

I would not be the first, so I will go ahead and annoy further by saying that for my purposes, I would not want to use glass as the pressure envelope.  That is not to imply that your plans are flawed, it is just the structure I would build would not work well with it, since the solar flux could change suddenly from hot to cold and the glass would crack from thermal shock.  Left to my own devices, at this point I would want to build a cylindrical metal cage, like a corset. Anchor it to a cylindrical "Basement" buried in the soil or embanked with transported and stabilized sand dune materials.  I would place a bladder of some transparent film inside the corset, and I am currently thinking EFTE.

But I would still have a use for soda glass.  I would like to see scales manufactured from it so that they can hang off of the outside of the metal cage.  I would want them to both block the abrasiveness of wind blown dust, and to block the UV.

The reason I want the above structure is I would want to focus solar mirrors on it to increase the amount of light the "Tower" intercepts.

And just so I don't get a nasty and unfair bump for being off topic, I might want to size it up so that I could put a big island inside of it.  Or maybe not.  Not sure yet.

Point being that for places where the ground may be deep sediments and ice (Which might be most of the northern hemisphere almost down to the equator, you could place these towers at intervals and connect them with underground tunnels.  In fact the basements could be filled with water (Except for an elevator shaft), and yes! You could have a small family sized personal tropical island in each one or perhaps a giant gerbil .  A floating island!  And you could have whatever you want above in the tower which would go up rather high.  I advise against coconuts, as they might do more than bonk you on the head.

I'm on topic, I'm on topic

Oh, if you are on a floating island which is the house you sleep in, and often dwell in and your personal tower starts to depressurize, with training, it is possible that you and your family can dive down into the flooded basement, and access breathing and other protective gear under a column of water which would of course start boiling on top and start to turn over as cold water accumulated on the top, but you might survive by your own means, or with a rescue.  I would anticipate that an alarm would go off, if the pressure started to drop, and if your people were properly trained they might have chances.

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As penance for the above, I defer to NASA at this time, or Scientists, I'm not sure:
https://lockerdome.com/6574100214714689 … 7807034644

Yes, I believe RobertDyck that it would be hard to duplicate that with what could be done on Mars, but it is still and interesting article.

http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/04/ … e-on-mars/

Just thought it would not hurt to have this reference here:

This causes me to wonder if there could be a "Sweet Spot" where abundant brines collect near the surface, if that spot could be at lower latitudes than the winter extent of the CO2 ice cap.  If so, then I might ponder if it could be possible to establish a secondary base at a latitude higher than a presumed "First Base" near the equator.

If so, then it would not be dependent on mining ice to get a good water supply, and in addition perhaps the salts could be "Mined" to extract desired substances such as Calcium or Magnesium, or could there be some "Copper salts"?  Don't know, but that would be nice

Well Spacenut, I goofed up, I partially posted my answer to your 2nd to last post at another location.  But your last post there involved both Mars and the Moon, so maybe you will forgive me for posting this whole thing.  If not, let me know and I will remove references to the Moon as much as I can.

I don't know what to think about the acid mist.  There are a lot of things we still need to learn about Mars, it appears.

I liked both of your posts Spacenut, good stuff.  Thankfully this thread has a dual topic, since we may consider the Moon to be a resource to facilitate access to Mars.

I am going to respond in reverse order, Mars first, then the Moon.
Mars: (I really feel this is a good one!)
http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/04/ … e-on-mars/

Extremely salty brine may not be directly available near the equator, but it sounds like hydrated calcium perchlorate  could exist a few centimeters down.  This should be good news for those who might hope to make Martian cement I think???

Anyway, I am going to try to suggest how a machine might pull that moisture up from down there.

1) A cart with multiple wheels.  4? 6?
2) Wheels having a wick like electrically compatible material as the tread surface.
3) A temporary tank to store gathered liquid water in.

* I will end the numbered list now and describe a whole machine that I think has chances.

The cart will operate during the day primarily, powered from solar panels most likely.
The first thing it will do is suck in air and pull electrons from it.  That electron depleted air will be heated and expelled as a positively charged plume.  The heating process is intended to cause the plume to rise away from the cart, rather then to contact the carts wheels.
The electrons collected will be given a path to the wheels of the cart, so that the wick-tread will be given a negative electrical charge. Relative to the positive plume and also relative to the average ground of the "ground" itself, and the general atmosphere.

U.V. light flux can be expected to react to the surface of the soil, where it should accelerate evaporation from the soil (I am thinking of humidity clinging to mineral grains, and any salt film, I am not thinking of a soil that would be expected to be wet).
Another effect of the U.V. light flux should be to ionize some of the water vapor.  Positive Ions should contain Hydrogen, I think.

So, I am hoping to stimulate a ion flow into the tread of the wheels, I am anticipating that the cart will also travel, therefore exposing the wheel treads to fresh soil, as the previous soil is depleted of available positive ions.

You have an electric circuit, where the positive plume is the (+) and the electrons on the wheel tread are the (-).  I do not want the electrons to travel in this circuit much beyond the wheels, but they might to some degree.  That may not be fatal to the process.
So the Ions (I hope) will flow into the wheel tread.  Here we might hope to use a vacuum to pluck them away.  To make it effective, I hope that the wick of the tread will be joined to a continuation of the wick which will continue into a vacuum chamber for each wheel in the hubs.

Of course that vacuum chamber hub join will have to have a seal which allows the wheel to rotate, and allows (+) ions to flow into the hub,
and which serves as a restriction to unimpeded flow of atmosphere into the hub.  Inside the hub will be the actual source of the electrons, and the (+) Ions will be given (-) electrons to satisfy them.  If it is proven to be helpful, the interior of the hub can be heated as well to facilitate the plucking of water vapor molecules from the wick surface of the interior of the hub.  Here, perhaps actually a light bulb would work, or perhaps a heat source similar to a soldering iron.

The pressure inside the hub, being significantly below ambient outside, and the temperature inside the hub being elevated, I would expect all water vapor collected to be present as a vapor.  The vapor sucked into the pump would then be pressurized on the exhaust side of the air pump, and condensation methods would be employed to convert it to a liquid.

Perhaps daily, the cart would pull up to a master container, which is to contain water ice.  It would have a means to discharge it's content into the master reservoir where it is desired it to will freeze.  Of course this will require some type of co-ordination with the night cycle where cold temperatures for freezing will occur, and of course it will require fittings/doors suitable to discourage water losses to the atmosphere.

This may suit your desire to have water collected prior to human arrival, and of course it should still work after their arrival.

As for major sand dunes, that would be somewhat different, and not required for some time I think, since if water can be collected and the inhabitants have abilities to recycle, such vast quantities of water will not be needed at first.  If this machine works, then perhaps it will never be done.

As for magnetic and non magnetic native metal fragments, collection of those may also be done with a cart.

Of course what I am trying to build on is methods which were reported to have worked.  A plough blade charged with a negative charge, can be lubricated with water by putting a negative charge on it even in a seeming dry soil, and the water ions are attracted to the negative charge.

I am not saying the Mars analog is guaranteed to work, but it, or something like it may work for the desired effect.

The Moon:

Per the information supplied about the Moon, I suggest that the Moon might become a paying enterprise where you would first start with prospecting for concentrations of water bearing rocks, or valuable metal chunks.  They are not likely to occur in the same locations it would seem.

Next robots with rakes and brushes deployed to those sites.  The intention being to build a linear path where small materials/dust are swept to one side, and rocks are raked to the other.  During this process a video recording may be useful.  If certain alarms are triggered, notations of rocks of potential significance noted, and that information alarmed for.

As for the dust, it may be possible to extract magnetic and non-magnetic concentrations of metals from the dust during the sweeping.

Notable rocks would be metals, quartz, and perhaps hydrogen containing rocks.

Metals may be magnetic or non-magnetic (Even more valuable)

Robots may be able to collect those into appropriate bins.

Even more notable would be rocks which could have been ejected from the Earth during it's multi-billion year history.  Those will  be very valuable and I am sure scientists will want at least some of them.

I have previously proposed a different kind of spacesuit which would, I think be very suitable to what comes next.  However, any suit desired can be contemplated.  A lying down position (On a wheeled cart) will allow a human to investigate the row of rocks that were created by, in particular those which might be ejected by Earth. 

The suit I suggested should allow a person doing that job to take a break, and do bodily functions.  Eating/Elimiations/Naping, and little or no using diapers to deal with body functions.

So, with these methods, extracted and concentrated Hydro/Carbons, Metals for construction, Metals to ship back to Earth, Quartz or use ?,
and perhaps special rocks that came from the Earth.

By borrowing ideas from others about Mars, I would think that this process might be partially financed by Universities if they are given sole ownership of the rocks that are of interest to them.

Obviously a prosperous Moon operation might base a Mars operation.  I have become convinced that most likely a Mars operation will resemble operations on Earth in Antarctica, for quite some time, unless there is a decision that Mars cannot have life now. 

The point being that the Moon would be ours to play with until that day, and yet the Moon would also hasten the day that life would either be found on Mars, or a decision was made that "Enough is enough!", life is very unlikely.

Well thanks Antius.  Your ideas are valued.

Without disrespect I don't care what Zubrin prefers.  The Mars dream belongs to many other people than him.

Actually the Oxygen source from the Moon is now the lesser concern for me.  That is if you already have a base(s) on the Moon which you may project metals to orbit from for the propulsion method I previously mentioned, you might as well want to send out Oxygen as well.

But I am most interested in "Matter Projectors" if that is possible.  Of course the method I proposed is extremely vague.  More or less turning an ion engine that projects metal ions backwards and using it to launch metal ions to a capture method.  The capture method still has to be created/proven.

I am a Moon bug just now.  I reserve the right to change my mind later, but I consider on a great deal of evidence that there has been a conspiracy to keep people involved in thinking of ways to access space, but to also prevent it from actually happening.  The reason being that there are too many interests who want to profit off of the pork barrel, and who want to adapt ideas created to make money for themselves on Earth.  So, I see Mars as it is presently planned as possible to happen, but more likely to have the rug pulled out from under it at various points to prolong the time that it will take for it to happen, for the reasons I have mentioned.

Asteroid mining might happen in the mean time if there is money in it for big money entities, but other than that, I see that the intent is to waste our time, but pretend to be at the forefront of human advancement, while keeping their hands in the till.

I think the Moon may provide opportunity to break that cycle because too many international interests have ideas about accessing it.
I see the likelihood that virtual reality/telepresence(Augmented by A.I) machines operated by a large number of humans on Earth may be able to support a human population on the Moon who could indeed provide support for methods to access at least the inner solar system.

I think this could happen in my lifetime.  As for Mars, without delays, I might see images of people prancing around a flag on Mars, while someone is changing my diaper in the nursing home, but that is only if they don't pull one of their standard delay moves.  I have been around far too long to not notice the pattern.

So, I prefer to be a Moon Bug, but will be glad to see asteroid mining, or a trip to Mars.  Just believe we are being played with on the trip to Mars thing.  Would also be happy to see extraction of materials from the Earths upper Atmosphere.

Just have no choice at this point but to see the "Mars Dream" as real, but it's implementation as being on the level of the Easter Bunny.