New Mars Forums

It strikes me as rather good analysis of potential with very nice techniques.

In light of the recent conversation, I revive this information:

http://nextbigfuture.com/2015/01/graphe … llect.html

http://spectrum.ieee.org/nanoclast/gree … y-from-air

These article dated 2015 appears to support the notion that this idea is still considered fact supported by apparently notable people out there in science and news land.
https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/graphen … e-spectrum
http://www.mnn.com/green-tech/research- … -fuel-your

If this turns out positive, then imagine a Mars, where coupled with the disintegration of water through U.V., a Hydrogen content is fostered as a dissolved minority gas, but is retrievable at will from the Martian atmosphere.

This would make cities in Lava Tubes for instance and other underground methods of habitation much more habitable, since you would then not be required to work with solar arrays on the surface.  And the output from fuel cells would include some water I think, so you could then have those contributions to life support at almost any location on Mars, without the costs of the normal methods of supply of life support.

Caves with artificial light with normal pressurization with agriculture.  This would provide a minimization of the need for hard to procure materials such as transparent glazes, Copper/Aluminum which might otherwise be needed to have surface greenhouses or electrified underground greenhouses.

You could simply separate the Hydrogen out on the surface, and pipe it down, and likewise pipe down some atmosphere as the Oxidizer.

Piping could be of Steel or Plastic.  (Maybe plastic needed for the Hydrogen due to embrittlement issues).  (I am trainable GW).

So by adding water to the upper atmosphere of Mars, perhaps very conveniently turning it into a abiotic (I can use fancy words), solar cell.

One giant solar cell that is abiotic, but it's output can be input to a biotic system.  (And provide electric power as well).

Now that's fantastic if possible.  And at the same time you would be building up both the Oxygen percentage of the atmosphere, and the bulk of the atmosphere.

I think shooting ice into the upper atmosphere of Mars could be the most effect method to get good results.  I could be wrong, but I think up there, above the maximum height where water normally cycles in the atmosphere, it must be incredibly dry.  So ice of a proper size, moving at speed shot though that air and also subjected to daytime sunlight should sublimate very quickly.  The trick will be to keep it from sublimating away during it's trip through the lower layers of atmosphere.  (It shouldn't be that hard, to get some of it up higher, I am speculating).

Perhaps if you could generate an artificial dust devil you could "Funnel" water vapor to higher altitudes.  Water vapor is certainly lighter than a CO2 dominated atmosphere, so it seems possible to me.  Don't know if it would get high enough and stay high enough long enough to make it worthwhile though.

One giant Mars sized abiotic solar cell.

Some cultures are showing interesting methods according to a relative.  That person visited friends in Japan, and described a very advanced technological culture.

Of major interest to me was a simple thing.  They have arrangements where building include shopping malls, and apartments.  The apartments are upstairs, and the shopping and other facilities downstairs.  Of course with a very compact nation with a super good train system, cars are not really that needed.

This in fact would be rather more like what I might expect on a future Mars.  Obviously there are efficiencies.

A down side would be the danger of hate actions, such compact facilities being a tempting target for criminal sub cultures.  Also such compact habitats have to have a better level of maintenance, or of course they could be susceptible to simple arson, or bad results from poor maintenance of equipment.  However apparently Japan does not have a culture that is susceptible to those dangers.  Staying away from the 'T' word here.

Just what do you want.

I like to see you guys going at it.  It is sort cliché thing to mention, but very real,  Phobos & Demos.  What does the shell world guy think about that and solar power.

They may be embedded with ice or not, but some materials there.  Going to all the effort to cook up an atmosphere for Mars, I would think that Phobos and Demos would just be easy.

And maybe get some shell worlds, and maybe point a terraformer death star at the northern hemisphere ocean.

Personally I would go for the south pole ice cap, since a river ending in Hellas would offer the chance of a sea with the most maximized air pressure early on.

https://www.quora.com/Are-the-moons-of- … lonization

That's very hopeful, when you see that humble rocks might be upgraded to a much greater value to humans.

That's a good alternate perspective I think, upon reflection.  Thanks.

Humans are rather binary in behaviors through times or perhaps more properly cyclic.   Globalization, could be like a party that has gone on a bit too long.  You might just want to go home and have a good nights sleep.

Transmutation.  I had a bit of trouble not thinking that was fantastic, but we do make Helium if we perform fusion don't we.  It's a start in that direction.   I guess I am just slow to learn.

Allright Mr. Spacenut:

Query phrase "SpaceX + Satellite"
Informative, but somewhat on the negitive side.
http://www.wired.com/2015/06/elon-musk- … -internet/
SpaceX moves:
http://qz.com/426158/the-details-behind … xperiment/
http://www.nbcnews.com/science/space/ho … 16-n370196
Even Elon Musk is tentative about this:
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/elon-m … end-spacex
Query phrase "Parts from asteroids for satelite repair"
Orbiting 'Rest Stops' to Repair Crumbling Satellites?
http://news.discovery.com/space/orbitin … 150618.htm
Query phrase "Asteroid Mining + Manufactured Parts"
http://www.wired.com/2013/01/deep-space … id-mining/

I fully understand that much of the above can disappear into vapors, but in general it points in a direction which could be like a place to put to root a growing outerspace industrial process capable of connecting cash finances on the surface of Earth to places beyond the atmosphere.  And that if it were to exist, might perhaps then be joined to multiple non-Earth profit structures.

During my searches, I observed references to the use of Drones and Balloons, which are potentially additional competitive technologies, I also think I observed reference to SpaceX considering Laser communications.  Laser because the bandwidth needed for regular transmissions is limited, and perhaps already owned.

Interesting then I can see that perhaps if you did have a ring of SpaceX/Other satellites in orbit, perhaps a Drone Airship method.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4owUqfduT2c
The first video is of course on the topic, but if you let the next one play as well it is quite interesting.  More than quite interesting!

These would not necessarily be competitive, but symbiotic, as you could reduce the number of Satellites, to reduce cost, and could fly drone airships above the normal cloud layers, to allow them to receive and send laser transmissions from the satellite ring.  I would presume that then the airships would use bandwidth to retransmit to ground.

Airships being that high up, perhaps they could then "See" more of the satellites.

And of course we could expect our evil enemies then to say why not just the drones?  Well, the reason being that with a ring of satellites, laser communications could work all the way to the ground, if the weather permitted.  As for the drone airships, you would only have them over populated areas such as cities.

Where are all you minions Spacenut?

Anyway for such a topic, I did not think I might have much to add.  But it is an interesting topic.

So, various entities propose to:
Manufacture parts from Asteroid materials, perhaps for satellites.
Obtain Fuel from Asteroids for satellites perhaps.
Place a ring of internet satellites in low Earth Orbit.  Low enough were eventually perhaps even humans might be involved in some of the servicing.

And of course I feel the Moon should have a review, as it could in fact supply materials, both for parts and propulsion.

It is possible that a cash coupling to outerspace could be engineered.  It is not beyond hope.

I proposed a slow inflation of the Mars atmosphere, where we might hope to convert it to O2, so as to maintain an Ozone layer early on.
For me this makes more sense than a fast inflation of a atmosphere which would potentially reduce the need for pressure suits, but would involve maintaining a CO2 dominated atmosphere.

My concerns were the melting of permafrost under the fast inflation model, and Antius brought up the dust storm problem, and also if I recall correctly indicated that their would be a wind load problem from a thicker atmosphere, due to the day/night extremes of temperature, even at say 250 to 300 mb of atmosphere.

I choose to list some further thoughts on this.

First of all a potential problem with the slow inflation O2 dominated model.  As in the biosphere experiments, it may prove true that O2 will react with the surface materials of Mars.  This could be detrimental, or beneficial.
Detrimental:  You loose your Oxygen to from the atmosphere, and it gets locked up in the soil.
Beneficial: It is possible, that if indeed a great deal of the dust has come from off of Mars, perhaps at greater depths, a great deal of Carbonaceous material has been deposited. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonaceous_chondrite

This will of course tend to absorb Oxygen, but it might also release Carbon Monoxide, Carbon Dioxide, and H20 to the atmosphere over time.  So, perhaps by this method more atmospheric materials made available which would not become available if you simply did a quick inflation on CO2.

It might be interesting in fact to verify if such materials are significantly present how much Methane might be generated by warming the surface, and providing Oxygen to potential organisms which might feed off of the Carbonaceous.  This is important because it might skew your warming schedule, but it might also reduce the amount of greenhouse gasses which would be required to be generated mechanically by humans and their machines.

Under the slow inflation model of O2, the dust hazard would mount up more slowly of course.  So, due to the time delay, the costs can be delayed, and perhaps using special tricks reduced substantially.

One method is to feed off of the dust/sand dunes.  Design robotic automation which will eat them and manufacture useful materials.  Extract metals, if any, glass, if possible, and make bricks/tiles and so on.  This I presume would be powered by the sun.

Another method should an Ozone layer actually be accomplished, might be to use vascular plants to hold the dunes down.  I would expect this to be most possible at the poles, where more moisture might be available seasonally (Summer), and where the midnight sun would provide a minimum of say 60 frost free days each year.  We would be talking about dunes covered in tundra/or steppes or some analog of them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steppe
If you could somehow engineer trees which might survive the hideous winters, then maybe Taiga.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiga

Under the slow inflation O2 method, you might contemplate forced melting of the southern ice cap to produce rivers early on.  Ice covered rivers would flow even maybe under 22 mb of pressure, or perhaps even less. Allowing that water to flow down to basins such as Hellas, you might harness the hydro-electric power, and fill a small sea.

Terraformer  has been contemplating a ecosystem which might generate it's own suntan lotion, so perhaps this could be done even if you don't have a good Ozone layer.  But anyway presuming a pressure of 22 mb at the lowest points of the the south ice body, I would suppose maybe 44 mb at the the bottom of Hellas at that time.  Perhaps possible if salt added to have patches of open water which would catch dust.  And of course such a sea would become a resource, and perhaps a significant help in converting more CO2 to O2 and Hydrocarbon materials.

As for wind loads, above ground building would simply have to be made to cope with it as the pressure moved higher.

I have also tried to imagine a hybrid situation where a pool of CO2 atmosphere was below a upper atmosphere of O2, so as to be able to have an Ozone layer, and also use more CO2 to inflate the atmosphere, but I am betting that atmospheric mixing will be too intense for such a stratification to be possible.

Yes, Louis, the regolith as well.  Specifically the dunes perhaps.

Design solar powered robots that will eat the dunes, extract special materials such as metals if that is possible, create reduced materials such as metal parts, and ceramic blocks, ect, and expel Oxygen and perhaps other gasses.

Some of those parts, metal and ceramic, being used to build still other of the dune eating robots.

Nice, not quite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_machine

But I would think that perhaps humans and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telepresence

could be used to assemble those new machines.  As the dunes got eaten, more atmosphere, more machines, more humans.

Why not?

Parts manufactured for the new machines, or repairs of such machines, and then might include parts to make stone towers, for future purposes such as wind towers.  If the planet is going to be windy later, might as well take advantage of it.  And of course parts for buildings and other machines, if that much materials are available.

I would presume if manufactured correctly it would take a long time for ceramic parts to become Oxidized again.

I will also add this on the positive side:
http://news.sciencemag.org/physics/2015 … eakthrough

It is close to what I am thinking of.  They propose to fortify the magnetic fields of their fusion reactors by running currents through the plasma it self.

So, I think the upper atmosphere of Mars being bombarded by the solar wind may have plasma like qualities, so could you run electric currents through that?  Probably not from the ground, but perhaps from orbit.

Well, how do you power that?  Solar panels, nuclear reactors, or Solar wind electric generation?

For solar wind electric generation, the problem is if you generate power from the solar wind, and yet you keep it away with the field, how can those two objectives be compatible?  I a not saying it is impossible, but I would say that I am reaching beyond my abilities to even speculate on it at this time.  However, my preference would be to harness the solar wind in order to deflect it.

I can see that exploring the manipulation of Magnetism is not a waste of time, and I sense that you were fishing for a better catch than me, but I will offer these links, in the hope that they might point a way.

http://www.fhshh.com/space-the-magnetic … ought.html

http://www.popularmechanics.com/space/d … rmia-life/

Here, I have at least tried to contribute in a way that supports the idea of creating a magnetic field.  However, I am going back to:
Index
» Terraformation
» The end of the line for Mars Terraforming?
and there I will make arguments about why a induced magnetic field is in my opinion probably a luxury which will be hard to afford until much later, and will do little to enhance the survival of humans for the first  decades of settlement on Mars at least.