New Mars Forums

So could this ship make it at the location of the phonex lander?

I believe it is flat, and has ice.  Can the ice support it's weight?

It needs lots of ice, so there are;
-The two polar deposits around the ice caps or;
-Mid-Latitude glaciers or;
-Speculated fossil ice in the Mariner Rift Valley or places like it around the equator.

I think they could get small nuclear reactors from the Russians, and perhaps others?

I am under the impression that spacesuits of today will not be sufficient for the polar areas even in the summer.  Is that true?

Karov,

I appreciate your position, and will relent on that.

I am concerned about black holes however.  I don't think both energy and mass can be taken from them.  Possibly either/or, but not both, ?

It seems I have problems grasping the true nature of black holes.

If you drop matter into them, we believe that before it gets sucked in, the matter radiates intense energy due to friction and collisions.
However, I am thinking that since a black hole is supposed to be very cold inside, it is like a fist squeezing the matter, and rejecting it's heat.  So, it stores the mass without the heat?  In what form is the mass?  Particles of some kind?

If a laser beam were shined on a black hole, what would happen?
Light has no mass, but has momentum.  So, with a fantastically giant laser, can you heat up a very cold black hole by adding vibration to the mass within it?  I understand that light supposedly will stay in a black hole due to the curvature that it creates in space-time, but not due directly to gravity I presume.

If black holes are very cold, then they must have rejected vibration upon their formation, and shed it to the explosion which created them.  Of course if there are primordial black holes which comprise much of dark matter, then I don't know how those formed.

I am tempted to think that a laser shined on a black hole might reflect off of it.  Only because black holes being very cold, suggests that they naturally reject vibration.

Hawking Radiation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking_radiation

And then time:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hol … Time_Warps

So that's something perhaps.  And time is supposed to slow down near a black hole.

My question on black holes and time, is "If there are primordial black holes, do they reach back in time to the big bang?"

Secondly, "If Hawking Radiation (Of particles) are created at the event horizon of black holes and this results in some evaporation of the interior(?) contents of the black hole, then in the case of primordial black holes, is this a leakage of "Substance" from the beginning of time to our space time?".

Yes, I don't pretend to understand, I am confused, and admit it.  That's OK though, they don't have a unified theory yet, so how likely could it be that I would get this right?

Oh, just one more thing;
So, if virtual particles interacting with black holes creates Hawking Radiation, and the black holes evaporate, then OK, maybe you do get mass and energy, but it is moving particles, and I am not sure you can regulate or speed up the process.  So, if black holes are very cold, then the particles created if they are hot, must be allowed to keep their mass and energy of creation, if a partner virtual particle is pulled into the black hole.  And that process, then destroys a small part of the black hole.  Perhaps a small part of the black hole becomes virtual, and so disappears, as payment?

I will add some things, for speculation, since I am amateur in status, and quite often, what I propose is based on materials I have read.

I most prefer something as you propose, steam extraction.  I don't like the notion of trying to break apart solids, and then move them to a process vessel.  I think that it would be very hard to do or impossible.  Maybe it might make sense for a particular short stay mission, for drinking water, but not for industrial scale settlement water.

But there is this possible option for the ice dispersed into regolith situation.  Still it would in my opinion be best used as an early method on a substantial deposit of slab ice, before you set up your steam extraction method.

Microwaves:
http://www.space.com/24052-incredible-t … water.html
(I know "Mars One" is not likely to be a good reference).

I see your point about getting certainty, but that would have to come after you sorted through the many possibilities/options/necessities.

I was just hiking at an old mining site a few days ago.  It was done about 110 years ago.  The weird thing about it is they built a railroad to it from Canada, hauled 1 load of ore, and then abandoned it, because easier and better ore was found elsewhere not far away.  I would think we should want to think with broad examination with a light brushing, and then go into deeper and deeper methods as a process of elimination is applied to sort down to just a small number of options.  Having a fairly high certainty of success, if you finally send a crew, and a way to pull out if you are wrong.

The way to increase the certainty of ability to pull out would be to preposition supplies by a effective/efficient method.

I have had my eye on "Wax" as a substance that could be hard landed on Mars, and still perhaps have value.

Here is where I risk really annoying you G.W.

http://spectrum.ieee.org/aerospace/spac … more-oomph
Here is a claim in the article:

The reasons I like wax, is perhaps it can be hard landed, and if you don't like to burn wax in your engines, I would think it would be possible to convert it in part to for instance Methane.  Methane might be harder to store however.  Also, I would think that if you burn wax in Oxygen, you can get water vapor out of the exhaust, and condense it out for human use.  I expect that the Oxygen would be extracted directly from the atmosphere by some process to be proven first.

Anyway returning to the prospecting methods, I will speculate on what I would currently consider as a good progression.
1) Radar from orbit (Already partially done) + The advice of experts in glacial processes and geology.
2) Iron ball probes perhaps per elderflower.
3) I personally want to consider the inclusion of combustible metals in subsequent balls, with the intention of creating explosive combustion on impact.  I am speculating that this may at least provide a minimum estimate for the thickness of the ice, If it can be reached.  It might also suggest what the contaminants are as well.
4) Send several mobile robots that can work together to do 3D seismic surveys.
http://petrowiki.org/Designing_3D_seismic_surveys
5) Send human crews with prepositioned exit supplies to the most favorable site(s).  (With or without using hard landed wax).

Done.

Typical literature indicates a frozen near surface environment where eventually radiation would splinter the "DNA" of any hibernating organisms because the organisms never get a period where they can grow and repair themselves.

I am not sure I agree about the never of the presumption.

I have read that at any one time there are "Ice" windows of significance where solar heating could allow micro habitats suitable to life.

Also, dust devils are after all thought to be electric.  I have previously speculated that they might discharge into the ground an cause a temporary melt of "Mud".  On Earth lightning can melt sand.  Why not permafrost in the subsurface of Mars?

Also, although it seems repugnant to life for there to be such a low atmospheric pressure, combined with low humidity, and saltiness, and massive temperature fluctuations, I believe that the combination provides an avenue for life in the near surface.

For instance a salt deposit under a thin rock, might attract moisture from the atmosphere, or from the grounds humidity.  The cycling of day/solar and night/radiate might cause a freeze thaw under the rock.  This in turn might separate the briny fluid into temporary parts, some very salty, and some less salty, and perhaps fresh enough for life to drink from it.  The day might bring the temperature of the fresher fluid up to -10 or so, which is in the area where metabolism can be significant in Earth life forms.

Then there are salt pans, where in certain parts of the seasons, it is speculated that the temperature and humidity could support certain Earth life forms.

And then it seems that Mars exited an "Ice Age" it has been said 400, 000 years ago.  In that era, the ice was held at the equator, and not the poles, I presume by the tilt of the planet.  They do not say what happened to the CO2 which is currently held in the southern ice cap.  My point is that I think that Mars on it's own, can and has had temporary elevations in surface pressure and temperatures, and also humidity, in the "Recent" past, which could have improved conditions for extreme life.  It is said that the CO2 in the southern ice cap if evaporated could elevate the pressure to 11 mb, and this would allow actual snowfall, and that snow would be able to melt, and form temporary streams.

And finally it seems that they are now saying that Mars had cold lakes far beyond the wet period of it's early life.  Those came from snow melts.  This suggests a prolonged time where the Earth and Mars could have swapped life types.

So, in my opinion the hopes of a biosphere which could emerge back to surface are enhanced, as many below surface life forms might retain abilities to deal with surface life, if conditions waver just slightly to a better condition.  I think there have been exceptions to the notion that the surface cannot support life, and I think they have been relatively frequent in geological/biological time.

I don't know how displeased you might be Karov, but I am going to go beyond your guard rails, and ask why a somewhat different objective would not be desirable.

For a definition, perhaps one you will also accept, so then to have a common reference:
http://space.wikia.com/wiki/Planemo

We have three objects of a similar size, which are suspected of having an underground ocean.  Europa, Ganymede, and now it would seem Pluto.

http://gizmodo.com/plutos-liquid-water- … 1787010446

What catches my attention is the salt.  I presume or Ass u me, (ed) that such an ocean if it existed, would have a type of ice below it, and that the planet would have few metal resources.  But if the ocean is 30% salt, then metals available from those salts.

I have had my eyes on places like Europa, but have been fearful of places like Pluto.

I was afraid that Pluto had too much overburden of light ices, and would be metals poor, too poor.

I think the planet stores energy of impacts as sea water, and stores it very well.

I am still a bit spooked about what some references say Pluto would have to offer:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluto

In my previous (And continuing) ignorance, I presumed that Nitrogen and other overburden would make all substances even water ice not accessible, but this:
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2016/02/ … rogen.html

So, I am starting to form an updated notion of what Pluto is behaving like from this partial information update.

It does seem that the frozen Nitrogen (Which flows like tooth paste), is heavier than water ice, but fresh water is ~10% heavier than fresh water ice.

However, a salty cold ocean of liquid water might be heavier than frozen Nitrogen.

So, I am guessing that frozen Nitrogen which is heavier than water ice, and flows like toothpaste, may slowly flow through fractures in the ice, and be heated by the salt water ocean far below.  (Or I am wrong).

So, I am going to presume that the sources of Pluto's heat may be:
-Original condensation (Long ago, probably much gone).
-Radioactive
-Impactor.  An asteroid or comet hitting such an object will generate a lot of liquid water.
-Serpentinization (Rusting, I think, more or less.)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20572872
-And of course, completely unproven and without evidence, the notion that the solar wind may impart energy to a planet, particularly with a salty ocean by magnetic interactions.

Anyway, with most of the above, we might speculate that the Planemo's you now present evidence for may in many cases have some resemblance to Pluto.

>>>>OK to get to the point finally:
The degree of manufactured structure you have proposed would be less than;
-Obtain metals from the underground sea.
-Use the crust of ice to host habitat for ~Humans.
-Perhaps create a shell of metal and inflate some of the Nitrogen, to provide a background atmospheric pressure of 1  bar.
-But also capture and use the interstellar materials as you suggest, but run fusion generators on the Planemo off of it.  Also capture the Metals, and build stuff.

As for the Nitrogen ice overburden, push it to an artificial moon around the Planemo as is convenient.

When your Planemo was fully developed (According to this particular plan), you would have an ocean covered by an ice shell.  The ice shell would include vast habitats as it would be somewhat 3 dimensional rather than more or less 2 dimensional.

Above that a shell, filled with Nitrogen gas, and eventually a partial 02 atmosphere.

Later, perhaps a open sky atmosphere above that, if you could generate enough power to keep an atmosphere inflated.

And then finally, if the accumulation of heat, was large, from the fusion process, the ice layer over the ocean would be replace with manufactured structure.

So, you would finally have an Ocean with a raft of manufactured materials, and then above that a shell of "Metals" covering a N2/O2 atmosphere, and above that a lesser pressure atmosphere, if you could generate enough heat.

Granted, to do this it might be necessary to move to the level of fusion where H2 itself could be fused.  But, you are already talking fantastic technologies, so I don't feel too, stupid to mention it.

In this situation, then each significant Planemo could become a very excellent world, and of course by doing this you would have far more living space than if you combined Planemo's to make Earth sized objects.

If somehow reactors are eventually created that can handle H2, then as far as energy use, this would be better, I think than fusor stars.
Maybe some would be created anyway just for happiness.  Maybe some very large ones would be made to make metals.

But is transmutation so much more out there than manufacturing stars, etc.?

As for gravity, the humans I am thinking could eventually be altered to be healthy in lower gravity such as a Planemo would have, but synthetic gravity in the shell of ice/manufactured materials, would be another pathway, if that proves impossible.

Oh, and lets use your H.W.M. to help keep the outer atmospheres inflated, if there is not enough waste heat to radiate out of it.

Done.

I enjoy your presentations Karov.  But I struggle to harmonize.  I will continue to try.

Lots of material goods there!

Nice.

I guess we want to segregate our eating, breathing, and emissions behaviors.  In this case, it is a good thing to do.

Ceres if rehearsed with O'neill artificial hab methods, would reveal if Ceres itself could be successfully and prosperously habituated.

It could also contribute to the distribution of humans to Venus and Mars and Luna as well.

So, I am interested in a two level synthetic gravity for such artificial habs.

If it works out, then perhaps a great deal of the surface of Ceres could be simply habed, with some of it being natural Ceres gravitation, and some with multiple centrifuge rings, linked together, to allow a very flexible life style for the inhabitants.

Such a Ceres, if possible/practical, could become a hub for an early solar system civilization.

A place for human spiritual growth as well, I think if the material needs are satisfied.

Perhaps this will entertain or irritate you.
This site used to have a message board, but now is just more or less static.
http://www.unitednorthamerica.org/index.htm

Americalex took over the message board:
http://www.annexation.ca/

I used to be an active member of both UNA and annexation, but was never an advocate of union or specifically against it (Just some proposed forms of it).

They don't seem to have much excitement these days, but I think you can likely have more liberty for political discussions there, if that is what you want.

And they can probably furnish you with quite a lot of factual information about various conflicts which are obscured by tinted views on various sides.

Null

And terraformer said before our B.S. Avalanche:

A very important question terraformer.  That, and what is the need to maintain health benefits.

The ideal work place gravity field.

That is certainly a good dream, and so it would seem your heart has value.

Strange, you have New York +, and also wide spread farm fields as some of your re-occurring notions, your reference points.

My background has to do with figuring out how to run your life without extreme guidance from a hiearchy.

That in theory is how Americans are supposed to be.  Some of our highest politicians seem to love to criticize people like me because we do not want to associate with predatory cultures such as the very old world.  (Those cultures in my opinion only run on hierarchy).  To me they are deadly poison.  Like being forced to co-exist with rotting corpses of the living dead.

I suppose I had better get to a point.

In my mind there is no chance that the sort of people we are dealing with as enemies these days would leave such a machine unmolested.  They are creatures that crave power and control.  So, a wonderful dream, but only if somehow you can keep the demons out.

It is a wonderful aspiration however!

And that is why I prefer smaller work oriented machines, where a small community pulling together to accomplish a profitable living.  Such communities are less likely to foster degenerates of the sort that crave control of large populations.  Rather such an environment will favor people who manipulate physical objects for profit, not other people.