New Mars Forums

I'm not very worried about the fission thing.
It appears that the solar option will be sufficient for human reach for some time, and I anticipate that fusion will eventually become real, say within 100 years of time.

With mirrors, I see no reason why the moons of Jupiter, and the Trojans cannot be handled (Except for lethal radiations).

The realm of Jupiter is behind the "Snow Line", the asteroid belt further in, not in the snow belt anymore.

I am interested in a 2D chart, with the horizontal scale being the level of differentiation, and the vertical being the size of the objects.

I would exclude any object without sufficient ice/water for a water/ice column minimum of 1 bar.  But I would make an exception for Earth and Mars polar areas, simply because I want to relate the mini worlds to terrestrials.  In reality, I exclude Earth, because except on the very small scale to prove technologies, our polar ice caps should not be messed with as a rule.  As I have already stated, I would include the polar areas of Mars, as part of the outer realm, as they more resemble the outer solar system than the inner.  This is possible in part due to the meager atmosphere of Mars, and the coldness of the poles of Mars.  I am not sure how much Ceres, and the asteroid comets, can be included, they used to be behind the snow line, but are not anymore.  Therefore the technologies required to handle them are different than for the realm of Jupiter and outward.

Quadrant #1
So, on my chart, I would put the polar areas of Mars in a quadrant for differentiated objects that are large.

Quadrant #2
Enceladus being presumed to be a differentiated object of a smaller size.

Quadrant #3
Callisto being a more or less not differentiated object, at least in it's upper layers, and like Mars of a large size.

Quadrant #4:
The optimal non-differentiated small icy objects that you are most interested in.

There will be gradients of a continuum of these objects, and methods best suited, the preferred tools will be different.

I will speak of how I would handle Callisto, and Enceladus a bit, and see if you may be able to find applications for small undifferentiated worlds.

I previously spoke of canals (Covered of course) on Callisto, and that would be one way.  However for a more dynamic method on Callisto, I would entertain, a honeycomb of cells of water with an ice topping, where each cell is a metallic canister.  Parts of the moon's surface would have these, and in each cell would be an ice covered water cell, protected in part by a metal canister.  Above the ice would be a minimal artificial atmosphere of a pressure required by the vaporization point of the ice.  The vaporization point of the ice would be determined by the temperature of the ice, which could be rather cold.  At the bottom of the cells habitats.

Other areas of Callisto would have ice covered lakes where sediments on the bottoms would be mined, and the metals recovered, and the tailings (Ice/rock)  would be donated to "L" location construction sites, to create artificial world, where "Popcorn/Foam" cores would be manufactured, and ice/water would be made to surround them.

So, in this case for Callisto, a form of strip mining is employed, and from time to time the honeycombs (Cities/Habitats) will be recycled/moved, to allow strip mining to continue, until the entire moon is consumed?  (Lots of habitats then).

Please note that I am staying outside of your range of worlds, and am dealing with world outside of your stated range.  The purpose is to see if you can and will find anything of use for your range of worlds.

Enceladus:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enceladus

Well, here we have an example of what happens when heat is added to such worlds, in this case significantly larger than your optimum size, and the heat we think coming from part of the core.

According to some models, Enceladus has an ocean over part of it's core.  This is probably an unusual situation I would think, for smaller outer solar system objects, but as a model, might help in your efforts.

The only other thing I can think of is if you have an "Oil" which has a similar specific gravity to that of melted water, then you could create a vertical tube, to pass through the ice down to the core to get core materials, early on.  You would need a liner, the special oil, and robots that could survive and work in such an environment.

But of course you are looking at undifferentiated small worlds.

Done.

That's also a good possibility, if the Hellas basin itself proves to be a good place to operate.  12.4 mb pressure in bottom.

http://m.esa.int/spaceinimages/Images/2 … in_context

https://www.google.com/mars/

Alright, I have no reason to conclude that Colles Nili is at a lower latitude than Hellas.  I have been looking, but I have better things to do for now.

I enjoy your work.

Spacenut said:

I am sorry, but it is apparent you missed the biggest points I made.

I am also afraid I must complain that this is yet another case of only this or only that.  My proposal if you look at it did not preclude the use of conductive power transmission.  It only made the case for an also method using pipelines.

This is something very bad that happens on this site, the attempts at summary dismissal without a reasonable discussion.

First of all I most championed a one pipe system where Hydrogen would be piped to a location, and local CO2 would be used to generate electricity, and provide water, and perhaps even biological activity.  And please note that power lines require 2 lines for a circuit, this requires one pipe.

I did suggest as well Methane and Oxygen being piped, but those would perhaps be done only in the "Markets" where that made economic sense.  I may return to that later, but for now, the single pipe model, vs electric power lines and water pipes.

OK, about materials:
For power lines; Copper, Aluminum, Insulators?  (The Martian atmosphere is more conductive than the Earths, can't say for sure when that would be a problem).
-Can you mine copper and/or aluminum at a reasonable price?  Unknown.
-Electrical circuits require a circuit loop, therefore this brings the question the criticism where two pipes are needed.  Two conductors are needed.

Water pipes: Steel? Plastic?  Other?
-I have suggested canals much later on, for really big flows of water, but here we are perhaps talking about providing a trickle to an outpost.
-Frozen pipes?  Mars is not that great a place to be running water pipes, very cold most places, most times.

Alright, pipes to convey Hydrogen, and possibly Methane or Oxygen.
I mentioned basalt, steel, and plastic.
Of these I favor plastic.  That is a pretty broad term.  Many plastics do not hold up very well under the Mars surface environment, so I am going to stipulate that such pipes would be buried for the most part, probably not by digging a trench but by scraping a berm over them.

Where you have to mine copper and aluminum, the bulk of materials for plastics can come from atmosphere, and water ice deposits.  Yes you may need Chlorine or Fluorine from salts, but salts are widely available.

And the manufacturing site therefore would most likely be facilitated by the source materials in bulk being available locally.

So, my sum point so far is it really is unfair to claim that we know what is the most economical, doable, and useful method at this point.

We won't fully know such answers until we try.  In the mean time, it is perfectly reasonable to speculate on both methods, and hybrids of those methods.  It is better that we don't just stick to things to invent that have already been invented.  If it hasn't been invented, then you must surely take greater risks to hope to invent it.

Although I am in favor as well of using power lines when it is useful and possible to do so, I will mention a few problems I think may be experienced.
-Obviously obtaining and creating the parts for power lines will be a problem, but of course humans should do all that they can to do it.
-Day night temperature swings.  A much harsher situation than Earth I would speculate.  But to be fair, perhaps the lines could be buried under a berm, and that would help to buffer it.
-But then your lines would be laying on the ground.  How high can you put the voltage, before arc over?  Are you going to need insulation?
-The Martian atmosphere is 100 times more conducive than Earths, so that is another problem.  Arc overs, line losses?
-What about global dust storms, if your lines are not buried.
-What about Dust Devils?  The do have electrical characteristics.  Maybe it can be engineered around.
-What about solar storms?
http://www.ineffableisland.com/2016/10/ … begin.html

Not much magnetic protection on Mars, what if your grid goes down, your transformers burn up?  With gas piping, you would still have electronics and electrical gear that would be affected however, so it's still a problem even with that.

And I also have a "Giant" project which is to melt the polar ice caps from below, and to make the resulting bodies of water have life in them.  It a bit of a pipe dream isn't it?

If power lines alone were used, then you still would not have any chemical energy for the seas, and I might note also that if you had elevated power lines of course you are going to have ice problems at high latitudes in the winters.

Now on to Methane and Oxygen.

It could be that you would have a power facility solar or nuclear, which is centralized, an large, and you make your chemicals there with that power, because the ice deposits are there.  Pipes make to make deliveries to consumers should make some sense in those cases.  Oxygen is going to be a problem because of the potential for combustion.  I can propose some potential solutions, but lets not go there.

Now you assumed electrolysis as the source of the chemicals from water ice and atmosphere, but photolysis is being researched here on Earth, and should those methods become practical, then you would not have an electrical process directly involved, it would be sunlight, water, atmosphere, and machinery.

So, no hard feelings at all Spacenut, I know your time budget is limited, and you have to just skim these materials, and you must sometimes get tired of it, but the above is my rebuttal.

Yes it is a bit off topic, but perhaps it points to how dwarf planets may be easier to inhabit with benefits, than worlds which resemble Earth to a degree, but missed the boat.

Where I have the misgivings Tom, is that one of the solutions for getting rid of the Venus atmosphere to hit it with a big impactor, so that the atmosphere swells very big, and is blown away.

But if you hit it with a seriously water bearing object, the atmosphere will also likely heat up to thousands of degrees due to the increased greenhouse effect, and it will take thousands of years to cool down.  And by then it will likely have shed the extra water to the solar wind.  Further the process will provide an upset that makes the climate of Venus unstable, and it will have to seek some new stability.

I just don't see who gets a payday out of this.  Lots of materials shed to the solar wind.
I'm not saying no, maybe you want to swell up the atmosphere of Venus, and have floating cities that much higher in the sky.  Maybe then you can harvest the atmosphere for some purpose.  But if you are hoping to turn Venus into an Earthly Eden, I think you are barking up the wrong tree.

Where as, sub-dwarf-planets with oceans may provide a very secure and wealthy home for humans, and perhaps much sooner, per the ideas of Antius.

And the total volume of such worlds is enormous even without creating artificial sub-dwarf-ocean-worlds.
To me it is a very attractive idea.

Antius,

I like your minimum world, where 1 bar exists on top of core covered by an ocean of water covered by ice.

Of course for your first cases you would want to modify a small mass approximately off sizes you have previously mentioned.  But after that since many solar system objects do not have atmospheres, and most likely outside of Pluto, few or no other Dwarf Planets will have natural atmospheres, then projection of mass to an appointed new location in space is a reasonable option presuming strong nuclear power and automation/robots.

What is most curious to me, is how many ideal sized could be created.  Granted you have to start with Pluto as it is, but further out, even Nitrogen does not inflate to an atmosphere.  On those worlds, how many ideal worlds where the bottom of the ocean/sea is 1 bar, can you make?

I am not very trusting of things like domes. rotating habitats, shell worlds(Per the specific definition), but I could trust the world you describe.  I could imagine that the total number of them that could be constructed is just mind boggling.

I see them as eventually being powered by fusion, but not necessarily in the beginning.  How many of them could be constructed from Calisto for instance?  That's an interesting start. 

Antius:
http://www.universetoday.com/23932/lots … orth-pole/

So, the mother load of clean water on Mars.  Should you melt these, winds could bring in salts.  For the south cap, the solution is to let some water flow to lower latitudes, and bring excess salts out of the polar water system.  Evaporation into a salt pan, the cycle then established, eventually winds bring salt back.  For the North, that basin being very flat in general, a Diked polder would be a sufficient repository of excess salts.

And let us not forget that vacuum gives us excellent insulation opportunities, and that overall the solar energy received at the polar caps is similar to that received at the equator.  (Not too different, that is).  Collect it and inject it under an insulation of ice and artificial snow, or other insulators manufactured, over time liquid oceans should be a possibility.  And that is if you only deal with the solar energy at the polar ice cap.

What if in addition you "Canal/Pipe" H20 to lower latitudes, and then use solar energy to split it to H2 and O2?

Pipe the H2 back to the polar ice cap / Oceans, and let biological organisms interact with the chemistry of CO2/CO and H2 injected into the waters.  I think that like a moist hay stack, biological processes will generate heat.  And of course Methane to be released to the atmosphere.

You see where I am going.  Mars, can be done solar, but of course, Nuclear of both types also desired.  It is quite a nursery for weaning the human race from solar energy, while still wet nursing them with solar energy.  In time the proper tool box for the outer solar system would be put together.

It is a very good process, I think.

Manipulating people, and manipulating objects.

Nasa manipulates objects on a small scale to gather information which will go into "Books" (Records).  Science is very good about getting general information and compiling it into records.

So the records can manipulate people.  Thankfully, in our cultures, peoples heads are not cut off for having a divergent view of what records say.   Not yet anyway, not very often.

Now some people examining the records, will try to go out and manipulate objects, because they think they have a good understanding of reality.  This also will be a sorting process, and will likely force revisions of what the official records of postulation of the nature of reality.  Hopefully no heads cut off in a literal sense.

Good deal, Nasa, and industry, it seems, but lets, keep the flexibility to update our understanding of reality, and also to accept new methods of technology, for manipulation of objects.

And watch out for bad vampires, who which to manipulate humans to loot treasure.

From the linked article:

Louis, I apologize for taking over your thread so much.

Spacenut, I think that there are a lot of options, some are very exciting to me.

Antius said this previously:

I am going to presume that the ideal stone to carve into is sandstone/mudstone, and that it is available at the equator.  I am also go with a modified gorge.  It may or may not start as a natural gorge.

With what Antius has said for depth, I will add the speculation that the "Gorge" could be dug down expanding width, and length, as it was made deeper/higher from top to bottom.   So, you could have a Cathedral type dome roof as seen from the inside.

http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/hole-rock

While a linear gorge may be perfectly fine, I would like to have a toroidal gorge that would start something like in this picture, but with an access roof of metal/glass/plastic/etc., and with the toroid expanding outward, but the central column staying the same width.  Also, I would want that gorge/cave carved more evenly, like inside of a bell.

While a linear gorge that expands as it goes down, may work fine, I prefer the multiple curvatures of the toroidal model, because I believe it will minimize rock fall from the expanding outer wall.

Antius mentioned "Water Table".  That would be something if it could be dug down to a water table.

But if not down to the water table, the interior of this toroidal bell would be a excellent spot to drill a well, down to any water table.

I would expect such water to be salty, and perhaps even toxic, cold, but wet.  (Which is a nice thing to have at the equator.

I would also reference this thread for something one of the members has provided:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7493&p=5
From it's post #104, kbd512 provided this:

So, then this as another method by which water for such a "Home" (Giant Home) could be procured near the equator, lets say in rock like at Mount Sharp.

It might even turn out to be possible to simply keep digging the "Gorge" and bake the tailings to procure a continuous supply of make up water.  (At least it would be one possible supply).  Of course you have to get rid of the tailings, but what if you could in part make them into solar collecting equipment, and ceramic type structures, in some cases perhaps involving a 3D printer.  Maybe sintering, or maybe just the sulfur glue others have been talking about.  (I have not specified what kind of solar power equipment, it could be any and all of the types).  Solar cells, mirrors, etc.

I would suppose that these caves could be lighted by LED's, since they seem to be becoming more efficient.

Spacenut said:

Well, I think that there would be many options available, and you could make many different types of gorges to suit various needs.

I think that in the case of the bell/torus/gorge with outward expansion as you went downward, you could in fact use a liner, to attempt to achieve a purpose.

For instance you could have a breathable atmosphere inside the liner, but at times compress raw Martian air into the space between the outside of the liner and the gorge/cave wall.

The walls could be finely Knurled or alternately grooved.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knurling
This would allow gas flow between the cave wall and the liner, even if the pressures inside the liner and that knurled gap were different.

Not proven as working may be the idea that if you compressed air into the knurled passageway, you might add electrons to it, electrons plucked from the outside environment, but maybe even to a degree from the inside of the liner itself.

So, one mode would be to have the interior of the liner at 650 to 1000 mb, and the knurled gap compressed above that of the outside atmosphere to lets say 12 or 70, or 300 mb, whatever is convenient.
The compression mode would be done when you supposed that the outside air was at a moisture content sufficiently above a desired cutoff point average.

So, doing this I am hoping that the knurled sandstone is acting like a sponge to absorb/adsorb moisture, and the electron input is encouraging it to stay near the liner.

Now, conversely, at some appointed time a vacuum can be drawn on the knurled sandstone surface, and the moisture content extracted into a containment to be compressed to condensation.  Even though the inside of the liner was at 650 to 1000 mb, the knurled surface could be >6 mb, and the interior heat of the chamber presumably will be above 0 degC, so that implies that any water in the sandstone will be withdrawn as a vapor, to be compressed to a liquid.

So, this is yet another way to get moisture into a gorge dwelling near the equator.

Safety concerns:
1) Martian compressed atmosphere in the Knurled surface will at all times be at a pressure less than that of the interior of the liner.  Therefore we would not expect it to penetrate into the living environment to poison it.  However atmospheric monitoring of CO2 (Which you would want anyway), would reveal if your Martian air pumping system was somehow pushing Martian poison atmosphere into the living environment.

2) Explosive decompression of the gorge.  While I do propose to have the knurled surface at a very low pressure often, that does not imply that I would in anyway allow a situation where a perforation of the liner would vent the entire atmosphere to the surface.  Rather the flow of gasses and the application of vacuum would be carefully regulated by valves, check valves, and any other necessary safety methods.  Still this would allow communion of the Martian atmosphere with the knurled surface by carefully regulated and relatively fail safe methods (If anyone of a responsible nature were to design the system).

Now, I did mention solar energy.  Of course why not solar cells, if that if the most cost effective.

But a large chamber like this can also double as a thermal reservoir.

So, you could directly heat the air in it during the day, and disperse the heat at night.  I would think that generation of electricity from that process is not out of the question.  And since if vertical farms using artificial light were used, you would definitely want to vent a lot of heat, even with LED's.  So cooling the chamber interior and rock down at night to fairly low temperatures would be fine I would think, to help keep the place cool during the day.

Other problems the liner causes:

With a simple gorge without a liner, you might attach electrical grids, LED's and Planters to the vertical walls.  However the liner will complicate this.  Perhaps in the case of the toroidal gorge I suggest, the central post would not have a vertical liner, but would be sprayed with a sealant every time any construction alteration was done, or to repair naturally occurring deteriorations.  So, that central post could help to support and be re-enforced by a ring of vertical farms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_farming
http://inhabitat.com/urban-produce-vert … d-indoors/

If a sufficiently moisturized method of mega dwellings in gorges can be implemented in this fashion, I do not feel that it should interfere with Elon Musks plans for the colonization of Mars, rather it should fit with it very well.

While I think that sufficient moisture may be obtainable at the equator, using tricky and thrifty methods, I do not think enough for his spaceships can be provided.  However, each high latitude North and South should provide seasonal abundance for his purposes.  Then all you need is a transport mode from his North and South spaceports, to these equatorial cities.  I propose a "Hopper" method, but of course cars and trucks, and trains/hyperloops would be quite suitable as well.

I believe that Elon Musk believes that Hyperloops will not require pipes on Mars.  However, if you did use tubes/pipes, then when you were not running a train, you could pipe water vapor to the equatorial cities from the polar deposits.  You of course would have to deal with a potential for condensation of ice, but heat could protect from that.

So, later on that is yet another way to get moisture into a network of gorge cities.

And again linear gorge habitats will be nice as well.  Maybe, if they are artificially manufactured, they could be in a star configuration.  That is with a junction joining several, allowing a family to dwell in one particular one.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronom … n_get.html

Quote:

Done.

In the quest for moisture at the equator again.

I think that maybe, if electrons were stripped from atmospheric molecules on the outside, and injected into the gorge enclosure, it may help to retain or even attract water ions into the enclosure.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti … ence-home/

What I had read a long time ago was about how it is possible to wet a plough blade even in apparently dry soil, by attaching a negative charge to the plough blade, and of course then you also have to have a conductor inserted into the soil somewhere else, to complete the circuit.  This I think is hard to find, because it has some applications,  that might be considered important to some entities.

Initially I believe that Louis was looking only at the idea of creating a pleasant habitat.  That perhaps also needs to continue to be a very nice objective.

But if sandstone toroidal caves turn out to be easy to make, then some of them could simply contain compressed Martian atmosphere (Have to make a method to compress the air).  If the compressed Martian air leaks out, so what just put more in.  But while you are doing that, also charge the interior to a (-) charge, hoping to retain/attract water from the rock pores.

Previous reading I have done suggests that just compressing Martian air could release liquid water.  Perhaps that is also true.  But I of course need to apply caution just because you read it or think you read it does not guarantee that it is true.

Still if a method to collect water from the atmosphere involving sandstone enclosures could be created, I would facilitate habitation of the equator.

As for the gorges with compressed Martian air in them, there is some reason to suppose the plants need less water.  At least for CO2 uptake (Less evaporation from the leaves, because the stomata are not opened as much).  Of course roots have to be wetted still.
http://arstechnica.com/science/2016/04/ … -scarcity/

I am going to guess that many plants will not like to grow in compressed Martian air, but if you could find a few, that were useful, then you might have something.

Done.

Oops! not quite.

During the night circulate some of the enclosure air through a non permeable radiator, and then when it's moisture is condensed on the interior walls as frost, vent that air (CO2/N2/Argon mostly).  Then in the day when the sunlight warms the radiator, suck that moisture back in with an outside air input.

There might be chances of a net gain to an interior humidity which is suitable for agriculture.