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This post can be given association with the 2 most previous posts.

Some people have proposed shell worlds, for terraforming some hard case worlds.

I have at times suggested shells within the atmosphere of Venus. 

A singular shell might divide toxic gasses from a breathable atmosphere.

In such a case the planet would no longer be a solar collector in the manner that it is now.  In that case it might be desired to heat the lower layer by some means like microwaves to keep it in a static condition.

Here is a wiki on some types of shell worlds: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shellworld

It does not seem to list the types I have suggested for Venus.

Such a shell would not necessarily separate the gasses of the atmosphere as the drawing above suggests.

But for the drawing above the shell might have multiple layers.

And a sort of shading shell on top that also would be a wind break.

I think that the N2/O2 atmosphere might be extremely windy. So you might want to be under a wind break that also shaded you.  And these structures would need to be very strong.

Also, you would have to limit the amount of water above the shell to prevent massive accumulations of ice, snow, and water.

The bulk of water might be stored in lower shell partitions and have artificial light.

The maintenance of this system would require lots of robots with at least the intelligence of bees.

Power from solar and wind would be very abundant.  Also, on the night side heat could be radiated to create electricity.

So quote from #533:

So we might name the idea in the post as:
4) Venus Shell world.

Perhaps Venus would transition 1-4 to get to such a place.

If you did then people could walk outside in a N2/O2 atmosphere of 1/2 to 1 bar pressure.

The shell might even rotate to give a day/night cycle, maybe 4 Earth Days Lone?

But the people of the future may choose what they want if they have the means to do it.

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I have seen an article about lava tubes on Venus.  The first thoughts are well that will be very hot.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/24 … yre-weird/
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What I will suggest now is for those who may thing big.

I do think that the mining of the surface of Venus will be possible.

Several factors are needed for this probably.
-Electronics that work at high temperature.
-An energy source on the surface are a good start.

I am of course thinking that the "Miners" will be robots. 

Do people aver think of making a dome on the surface of Venus, perhaps out of an acid and heat tolerant rock material.

Elsewhere and perhaps else when I have contemplated Dump-Aircraft that could deliver cryogenic fluids to the surface.
-Nitrogen?
-CO2?
-Water?
-Sulfuric Acid?

The aircraft can have characteristics of:
-Lighter than Air Ships.
-Giders.
-Airplanes.

While it is proposed to have air filled habitats at a suitable altitude of somewhat temperate character,  It may be that technology will develop balloons that can contain Hydrogen long term.

https://infinityturbine.com/liftgenx-hy … rbine.html

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Energy is very important for a civilization.  Venus had cold at altitude and hat at the surface.  Very hot.

An aircraft could be filled with a cryogenic fluid or water or even Sulfuric Acid as ballast.

It could be released to glide down to the surface.  Upon contacting a sewer grate on top of a dome or lava tube, it could release its ballast.

Then being lightened, it might ascend back upwards by some means.  Boiling Nitrogen or Water could power an engine to provide the reaction.  A tank now filled with hot Nitrogen might provide lift.

Now you can provide a improve environment with electrical power for your mining robots.

It may be a bit cooler, and exclude the acid, and so then also add massive electric power, so long as a liquid is supplied by some means such as aircraft or even perhaps someday a vertical pipeline.

A Vertical pipeline could also provide an elevator.

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Elon Musk has said that if Earth were just a little bit bigger with more gravity, accessing space might have been impossible.

So, Venus being about 90% per gravity, may offer an easier platform.  Granted the surface is hell, but if it was habitable for billions of years, a SSTO method might have worked for accessing orbit.  But it does not have a Moon, so we can be grateful for the favors we seem to have.

It has been very hard for me to get a good answer to "What is the speed of a lowest orbit around planet Venus?"

As usual, my computer is not as good as my phone to get information. 

But.........."A low orbit around Venus, Just above it's dense atmosphere requires  a orbital speed of approximately 7 km/s (25,200 km/hor~ 15,600 mph)"  (That is what I got on my phone).

What is the speed of LEO?

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So, about 2000 km/hour difference with Venus being less.

My understand that air braking heating is not linear to speed.

Is air braking speed linear to aerobraking heating of a spacecraft?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerobraking
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So, my impression is that even a 1800 km/hr reduction in velocity will be more significant than the number suggests.

So, I am inclined to think that a Starship equipped to enter the Earth's atmosphere might do better in entering the upper atmosphere of Venus.

VELO is very hard (It is for Earth), and I presume to work at all it may need to use the planets spin as an aid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_low_Earth_orbit
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The Europeans have done some work on VELO: https://aether-h2020.eu/
The idea, I believe is to use atmospheric Nitrogen captured as a propellent for an Electric Rocket.

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I am guessing that a "Sun Synchronous" VELO orbit is going to be hard to impossible for Earth.

But I have hopes for Venus and Mars.

What I would like to find is a stable perch where a spacecraft could be in a Sun Synchronous Very Low Planet Orbit (VLPO).  And use captured atmosphere and sunlight to maintain that orbit.  Even better than that would be to be able to accumulate propellants.

Note: I think it will probably not work out, but I think it is proper to try.  (Yoda was wrong, 'There is a try')

People who don't try must simply parrot things that have been done before.  It looks intelligent, and it serves a purpose, but it is not maximum intelligence and success).

Some things against success:
-Solar Flare atmospheric expansion.
-Gas mixtures.  (I am hoping for   Venus and Mars to have more N2 or another usable gas in the upper atmosphere, and less CO2.

For Venus primarily and perhaps also for Mars, I am wondering if a ship like a Starship could transit between higher obits and a platform in a sun synchronous Very Low Planet Orbit.

If necessary, we might invoke rotavators for the platform.  This might reduce atmospheric drag, and so then chances might be a bit better.

Isaac Arthur has provided some materials: https://isaacarthur.net/video/upward-bound-skyhooks/
So actual intelligent people have done some work: https://www.niac.usra.edu/files/library … 1Grant.pdf

https://toughsf.blogspot.com/2020/07/te … l-way.html
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So, an Air-Breathing Rotavator Perch in Sun Synchronous Low Venus or Low Mars Orbit.

So, for either planet if the perches work, then you can have two specialized spacecraft.
1) -High Orbit to Perch
2a) -For Venus Perch to Floating platforms (Cloud Cities).
2b) -For Mars Perch to Surface.

#1 does not need landing legs.
#2a does not need landing legs, but does need a flotation method.
#2b does need landing legs.

If the Orbit <> Surface or Cloud Cities task is already in a reduced gravity, and is divided into two parts, perhaps the heat shielding technology can be of a lesser dry mass.

IF the Perches can draw gasses from the uppermost atmosphere, they may be able to at least partially refill a spacecraft.

Oxygen is the most likely propellant but perhaps Nitrogen can be involved as well.

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If the previous post turns out to be largely true, then:

The Orbital to Very Low Venus Orbit might be at low enough differential speeds that much less tiling is needed for a heat shield.  Perhaps Stainless Steel, and some active cooling might do.  Probably flaps will not be useful so they would be absent.  Thrusters would be used instead.

This would significantly lighten the spacecraft if true.  It may be that it would refill from Oxygen gathered in the Very Low Venus Orbit.

As for the ship that would travel from the cloud habitats to Very Low Venus orbit, perhaps it would bring Methane to the Very Low Venus Orbit.

For it's return to the cloud settlements it would not have to use major rocket thrust, just air braking and floatation.

However, it would need to have tolerance of Acid and aerobraking heating.  I don't know if regular Stainless steel would do.

Although Venus could perhaps work with SSTO, this would instead be a two-stage system where the upper stage gets refilled in Very Low Venus Orbit.

I don't know for sure that it is workable, but it might be.

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It might be that a modified Starship could collect samples from a Very Low Venus orbit and those samples might be presented from further down by a rocket or Balloon system.

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deepstate lobbyists

I do apologize, you are seeming to be more correct.

City of London is said by some to be at the heart of the global game.  (Promethean Actions).  https://www.prometheanaction.com/

I am still considering how much I align with the Promethean Action people.

The seeds of my own suspicions are deeper in time than my exposure to them however.

It is my observation that the Romans were unable to do successful conquest in northern-more regions.

Their method of plunder was to decapitate the rulers of agricultural successful areas and make them provinces and then tax them.  I begin to think that that is why they only went so far north.  The Greeks in the Black Sea, penetrated further into Eurasia as I think the North of the Black Sea will support agricultural abundance.

The Romans withdrew from Britain as it was not paying off.  Very little of the Roman genome remains now it seems.  But the South of the island did support an agricultural abundance for the local rising verbal and violent thug class that became the upper classes.

They managed to pinch off a piece of the Roman Catholic Church and own it. 

Anglicans were allowed in the Colleges, where dead languages were the methods of establishing worth.

Other sects were generally excluded, and I think did not have access to land estates and servants.

So, they started the Industrial Revolution.  I looked it up and cities like Lakinshire, Derryshire, Shoropshire, and Manchester were mentioned.

The Southern Elites did not like industry as it was coal and dirty.  I am sure the old money did not like the new money.

The North/South divide continued in the USA.  Strangely though English to the North and Scots Irish to the South.

The South (East) of course adopted plantations and the North was not as much like that.

The South East of the continent appealed more to the Elites of the UK and France.

Then you have the East India Company and the Empire.  In the American Civil war the UK and France were tempted to join on the side of the Confederacy.  But anti-slavery sentiments in the UK and the Russian Fleet stationed on the East Coast (By Lincoln) discouraged them.

The post Civil war rise of Industrialism of course was not liked by the B. Empire.  It is to be expected.

When the USA began to run short of Oil, the holders of Oil then saw their chance to choke America in the 70's and beyond. 

As I understand it the IRGC?  Has very large holdings of real estate around London.    Some say that the fall of the Shaw of Iron was orchestrated by the British>CIA. 

At any rate we see that the USA is enjoying Oil from various sources now.  And screwing with Lloyds of London in the Persian Gulf.

The purpose of Iran is to raise the price of oil, but that is now benefiting America, (And Canada and Venezuela, etc.).

Yes, we Americans were stupid, but then people like me do not play at the high table at all.  We are supposed to be stupid.

And the addition of Iraq to Iran's power to the instability equation would make it more possible for terrorism to be promoted, to raise the price of oil for OPEC from time to time.  Lloyds if London to make more money then.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

In the Biden Administration we see the attempt with some success to put America back on OPEC oil imports.

The hatred of fracking, in my opinion was generated by an international desire to keep deindustrializing America.  The Oil producers would want American power to only be used to protect them.  In the case of Russia fracking was said to be immoral.

The collaboration of the remnants of Communism and Islam have a like desire to reduce American industry and yet to keep money flowing from a dying America.

The leftist Greens in Europe have unfortunately been able to get a fair amount of this done for Europe.

The intention from the Globalist Elites is suspected to be to try to get a nuclear war going, perhaps between the USA and Russia/China, to reduce the population and to get their power damaged.

Although perhaps not intentional, it is possible that Chernobyl and Fukushima were experiments to see how much nuclear damage can be tolerated.  (Some paranoia there, I admit).

But you might think that pandered elites, have an extremely high idea of their own intelligence and worth.  They might think they want that world where only 1 billion to 2 billion people are left over.  The worst damage to the USA, Russia, and China.

They could weather the war in their fancy bunkers in the Mountains of Switzerland perhaps, and other refuges.

They very radioactive parts can be turned into parks, reserves, or where the weaklings can be pushed to.

So, no, it is not the UK only, but indeed parts of the USA and many other global players may be implicated.

You should be careful as some of those people that are being imported into the UK and Canada may be intended for doing ethnic cleansings of "Indigenous" people who cause trouble.

The Evil Empire whatever you call it seems to exist.

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I am ready to change my mind by better evidence, but for now this is my evaluation of reality.

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A little more to add.  What happens to a country like Germany who removes their nuclear reactors?  Their reactors do not distribute radiation to Germany.

Paranoid?  The poor Germany poor but less radioactive than many places.  Meanwhile in Switzerland...............Party Time.

In war time, some reactors would be targeted, and some might just malfunction in the disruption.

It would make a good novel, I think.

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.............

The Aluminum thing is what I was most interested in.

But, I know about the Globe and Mail and watched Canadian TV when I was a kid.  So, not total ignorant in my case.

Quote the Robert:

Actually, I think we have had an unexpected windfall,  Very happy.  It turns out that Ukraine has figured out how to deal with Russia-Iran-China warfare.  They have the tools and the Gulf Arabs have money.  We also get the methods.  I felt guilty putting the Ukrainians up against the Russians in a slaughterhouse, but we can't turn that down.

As for your Europeans, they are suspected of becoming Fascist again.  The NAZI idea was that endless killing was needed to purify the human race of weaklings.  The import of immigrates is so that that killing can be facilitated at some point.  The Elites think they can hide in their places in mountains.  The Globalists want to get the population of the planet down to 1 or 2 billion.  The Elites do not particularly belong to any culture such as European or Canadian.  And some are converts to alien religions.  They have no intentions that are good.

The Iranians are not stupid people.  We were stupid when we damaged Iraq and handed it to the Iranians.  I believe the British orchestrated that for us.  The game is to separate what people want from the people who want it and then to make money as the middle men.  As example during the Biden administration the import of oil from the ME. was favored.  We have quite a few of the creeps in our country unfortunately.

Another favor we have gained is that we are a safer provider of Oil and Natural Gas than the Persian/Arabian gulf countries.

I expect that Iran will be forced to give up its enriched nuclear materials, and the Gulf Countries will keep the Ukraine on hire to help them against the Shia factors.  Europe may involve themselves belatedly, for the reason to have some influence as well.

We the People might even consider the Russians as Allies, but I don't want to betray the Ukraine any more than it has been betrayed by the Europeans.

The Russians have some troubles and it is not clear that they are at liberty to push harder.  But if too provoked they also might be pushed into something that is not needed.

This future has good potentials for us.  No guarantees, but potentials.

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Well, that is rather political.  I will tend to seek neutrality, as long term these factors will not be predictable.

I am interested in the existence of a Aluminum resource, and the effects on North America and the world.

I will say that the policy of Trump might reduce tariffs for companies that may seek to build in America.  I interpret this as hardening the USA for a potential war economy.  We have evidence that we cannot trust most of our NATO partners.  If Canada goes leftist green, do we want any of our auto industry outside of our borders?  The Auto industry can be harnessed for war materials in a crisis.  It is not a question of anticipating a war situation soon, it is more like toing to the gym to attain fitness.  If you are fit then less people will try to mess with you.

It is quite apparent that outsiders have inflated egos.  Somehow Americans are ignorant hillbillies, even though they share similar genetic and cultural backgrounds.

Our understanding of the results of the conflict in the gulf is not likely to be the same as for Canada, or Germany.  It seems to be said that the Germans were trying to claim that the Iranians were clobbering us.

I have very strong suspicions that retard elites are thinking in very stupid ways as to how to sculpt the future of the human race.  Otherwise, why would the Germans have done so many stupid things?  They are intelligent people, but their leadership keeps doing stupid things.

And the tests of NATO over both Greenland and this newest thing, clearly shows that Europeans and Canadians look down on us and think we are a servant people.  Some stupid people who were useful idiots but are out of control now.  All the more reason we should not trust critical Technology/Industry in the hands of the untrustworthy.

But anyway, if Canada has lots of Aluminum, some will come to the USA, either by future economic terms directly or as scrap Aluminum around the world that came for Canada.  It is not a matter of love or hate, it is that the world could be flooded by Aluminum abundance.

So, concerns about the energy grids may not be as great.  Both Aluminum and Carbon may help those things.

I have noted that the North American Continent has a great deal of solar potential.  Fusion may be competitive though.

However, with cheap Aluminum and new Carbon technologies, and robotics, energy may be well solved for the continent either way.

I anticipate that "Active Solar" may come to dominate.  Robotic Solar that can react to sun position and seasons and weather.

For instance, a humanoid robot with a power tool might be able to run a collection of solar devices to position them sequentially to an advantage.

IF robotics work out then the cost of hardware in part made of Aluminum and Carbon may deflate to the point where such elaborate equipment may be affordable.

I am presuming that whoever owns the Alumina deposit will want to sell it for money.  Probably so, as whoever does not will be pushed out of the way by high powered money people, I am sure.

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While I am interested in the Ocean methods I have worked towards, I am fully on board with the notion of orbital data centers.  I want that understood.  Typical sports minded people (Who are typical minds), think in terms of binary contests.  I tend not to .

The reason about the nutrients in the Oceans is a comfort to me.

I have lived a life where the powers that have put myself and many other people into prolonged stress.

They do not want western peoples to produce Carbon.

But Energy producers will have not prohibition put on them.  So, then in my world the European??? powers that put the prohibition on Western peoples, have no right to do so, and even though they have tried with all their might to kill Shale and perhaps Tar Sands,  I promote both of them because I know we have been being raped by the world powers.

At this tine as well third world powers have been given license to unlimited expansion of the production of Carbon into the Air.

I am afraid that I think that what has really happened is that upon the use of China to combat the Soviet Union, and the emergence of OPEC, money in the hands of non-western peoples have allow the bending of the will of the west by bribes to western politicians.

The plan was to set up a no-win situation for the West.  But in the Oceans both cold and nutrients, I see a win possibility for the West.

I think also we can factor in the European urge to create the super man.  It should not exist at this point but I think it does.  The idea that conflict and cruelty will kill off the weak and cause the emergences of s superior race.

I will not go into further detail but if you consider the possibility that this is all a game from the elites, who expect to buy they way out of trouble, it could explain WWI and WWI, and how the Europeans have appeared to do every stupid thing to their countries that they could find to do.

If you took Darwinism to heart as many of them probably did, it may be that they often take common people as not worth the air they breathe.

The idea that the application of cruelty can lead to advancement, is an easy choice for the spoiled and lazy minds.

I want to side-step their idiot plans.

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There will be many situations that may involve continental shelves, but some seamount type islands may not have that situation.

https://hasanjasim.online/the-underwate … ncredible/
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There are claims that new safe small nuclear reactors are possible that when they malfunction will just shut down.

I think that these could be put a distance down on the seafloor of a seamount.  These then being out of reach from most idiots, and protectable by military level forces.  They also be removable by some mobile equipment to be brought to service or disposal.

If these were CO2 turbine, in nature,

These are close enough to the shore that data lines could be laid on the sea floor.  So, then electric and mechanical power available, and the cold also available, the water then heated by the data centers, may bring fertilizer up into the sunlight.

Remote seamount islands might be set up like this, for instance https://xdaysiny.com/pitcairn-island-travel-guide/
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Of course it is British and that than makes the concept international.  We know how much trouble other nations like to produce when possible.

But Here I am just indicating the useful process.

I will admit that sea water is more of a problem to cool data centers than is fresh water.  But I believe it can be done, as Nuclear Subes apparently cool their reactors.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Another method of power might be "White or Natural Hydrogen".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_hydrogen
https://www.dw.com/en/white-hydrogen-th … a-76106804

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Also solar as you have mentioned by solar concentrating mirrors.

Wind

Wave.

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In the question of Moon-Cracks 19 to 20 km deep in some cases.

I wonder if these are places where you could dig deep?

If they open and close with tides, do they develop their own propant?

That is fragments of rock and dust that may fill them?

The Moon shrinks by cooling, and so are these cracks expanding with materials wedged into them?

Then indeed I am hoping that there is an "Atmosphere" in those cracks.  19-20 km.  This is for Americans (11.8060527 Miles)

Query: "How high is the air pressure in the deepest mines on Earth?"

Quote: "The air pressure in the deepest mines on Earth varies significantly based on depth and mine design.
At the Kidd mine, the pressure is approximately 1404 hPa (20.37 psi) at a depth of 2735 meters below sea level.
1
The Mponeng gold mine, which claims to be the deepest mine, operates at a pressure that is about 1.4 times higher than at the surface.
1
The Kola borehole is another deep mine, with a pressure estimated at around 3.6 atmospheres.
1

These variations are due to factors such as temperature gradients and the geological conditions within the mines."

I do understand that on the Moon we have an Exosphere, and whatever gasses are entrained in the Lunar Regolith.

The gravity is 1/6th, and we do not know for sure if the solar wind wicks molecules out of the cracks, Of if processes may fill the cracks with molecules.

It has been said by some that these cracks may be sources of Nitrogen and Carbon Compounds.

I have to wonder if on occasion Hydrogen and Helium bonded with Oxygen may also enter and accumulate.

If there are gas accumulations, I expect the maximum pressure to be well below one millibar.  But still that might be a useful resource.
If it could be accessed.

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Well, I have been trying to figure out if there could be anyway to associate waver power, Data Centers, and a Space Port in the Ocean.

Here is an attempt:

The waver power machines may buffer the shock of storms, so then protecting the floating space port platform.

The "Compression Stack" would depend from the Space Platform and help stabilize it.

The compression stack would have a series of increasingly compressed chambers, to prevent crushing.  It would be used to obtain cold from the ocean depths, for Data Center activities.

By pushing heat into the cold ocean it would also cause nutrients to rise up in the water column into the sunlight.

The Stack would be far enough down that a crash or explosion on the landing platform might not destroy the "Stack".

Obviously needs more baking, it is half baked at this point.  Half baked means it may need some more baking.  Not a wrong thing.

So, then these many parts might fit together and we also sequester Carbon and get food.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUMVT7Nddw8
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The Optimus will need an improved cooling method for its motors to work on the Moon.

Robots will not need much water, but it would be nice to have some.

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So, my question is can mobile molecules collect in deep cracks on the Moon?

Query: "Lunar Cracks 19 km deep?"

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So, there may be gasses that accumulate in these cracks, perhaps sourced from broke rock in the cracks, perhaps Carbon.  But might Hydrogen containing molecules fall into the cracks and accumulate?

The Moon will flex with the tide of Sun/Earth/Moon.  Impacts also may disturb the cracks.  Do gasses erupt from the cracks if the tide closes them a bit more than normal?

Is there a way to collect the presumed gas accumulations?

This resource if it exists would possibly be available at lower latitudes where you might want to have a mass driver system.

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