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Worst thing that could happen if we don't do anything more with GEO junk than collect it is a new geostationary moon.
Imagine how exciting that would be, a sunset with two moons like in that SW ep. 4 scene
"Thats no moon, thats a space station."
And those are suns by the way.
Commodore: Can't be all that much worst than if a psychopath gets a hold of a fork.
I dunno...think I'd rather get attacked with a fork than one of these phaser-type thingies. :-\ Seems there'd be a better chance at fighting back.
--Cindy
The weapon is non lethal. A fork isn't.
Since were using an inline SDV, we can load all the equipment needed to outfit the tank in the cargo portion. After second stage separation the tank uses the leftover fuel to achieve the best orbit it can. The cargo portion then rendezvous with the tank, and meets with a semi-permanently manned construction platform, which really doesn't need to be any more complicated than a TransHAB with a SSME and a pair of CanadaArms.
Depending on how long it takes to complete a tank, I'd guess we could finish 4 per year, give or take.
If you estimate a billion for your construction platform, a crew of three delivered via CEV for a 6 month stint (launched on an SRB, $75 million, guessamate $300M for the reusable CEV), 2-3 resupply CEVs($200m CEV and $75m for SRB) and a half billion per SDV launch, it's far more affordable than waiting for asteroid or lunar materials, especially considering that the tanks could play a critical role in getting such an operation up and running.
If you add that up...
Year One
Orbital Construction Platform (SSME + TransHAB + Robotic Arms ~ $1-2Billion
2 Crewed CEV Launches per year ~ $75M SRB Launcher* + 2 $300M Crewed CEVs +$10m CEV Recovery and Checkout= $760M
3 Resupply CEVs ~ $75M SRB Launcher + 2 $200M Resupply CEVs + $10M Recovery and Checkout = $620M
4 SDV Launches with all Cargo needed to outfit it ~ 4 * 1/2 to 1 Billion per launch = $2-4Billion
Total ~ $7.5 Billion
Year 2
2 Crewed CEV Launches per year ~ $75M SRB Launcher = $150M
3 Resupply CEVs ~ $75M SRB Launcher = $225M
4 SDV Launches with all Cargo needed to outfit it ~ 4 * 1/2 to 1 Billion per launch = $2-4Billion
Total ~ $4.5 Billion
*Conservative estimate, anyone know how much it really cost to recover and refuel an SRB?
Now that sounds like a lot. But in a lot less time and with a lot less money we could put the ISS to shame. In other missions we could put together the pieces to one good sized permanent Moon or Mars base in a couple years, and fantastic Mars ship with a couple of extra components. We are probably going to visit several lunar sites per year in the 2020-2025 range. If after a couple years of that we pause and pick a few sites to build permanent bases on, given a few years at this tempo we could finish them by 2035, have the infrastructure in place to immediately and seamlessly start building a Mars ship, and still have the money to keep the Lunar bases manned.
I wouldn't be so sure. He does great in polls already.
If Clinton runs I don't think the GOP will risk it with anyone else.
I'd be surprised if there isn't some version of a McCain/Guillani ticket in 08.
How much of this stuff is going to reenter after a while any way?
Start making things that don't pollute, and the bulk of the problem will probably solve itself.
It really hasn't started yet.
The key will be ramping down the shuttle program the Shuttle to the point were it can not be resumed at the at the end of the decade.
Other than that, the 2008 presidential election will be critical.
Anyone know McCains position on space?
Can't be all that much worst than if a psychopath gets a hold of a fork.
Why does it have to resemble meat, bloody or otherwise, and chewable. Making it drinkable, and get your fibre (what used to be termed "roughage") from cellulose cooked broth made from same, and flavoured as desired artificially.
Yeah, that sounds appetizing.
Besides, the idea is to create a working ecosystem. Drinking bagged Fibercon really doesn't do that.
Sounds like the http://www.spaceislandgroup.com/home.html]Space Island Groups plans.
The use of ET tanks, be they from the Shuttle, or SDV, arr probably the best way to go about it. The pros and cons have been well hashed out over the years, and solutions have at least been suggested.
But theres no doubt that long term variable gravity reasearch needs to be done, and not just on humans. The key to producing self sufficent ecosystems away from Earth is getting critters to adapt new environments. That means 1g, 1/3g and 1/6g at least, all at once. A forth option would be useful as well.
As for the engineering, I'm not sure that fancy magnets are needed, unless your referring to wheels moved via electric motors.
Something this big should probably powered with reactors. Otherwise the size of solar panels, along with the massive weight of the station itself, it will be extremely difficult to shift the station to avoid space junk. The ion engines will probably need to be running almost constantly.
A shuttle bay would require a lot of cutting and welding, and the infrastructure needed to hold the pieces in place would be extensive.
I thought the Prometheus class probes were already out of reach of the EELVs.
And that the regular Delta 4s like the one used for Deep impact were EELVs.
I've been pondering the feasability of a bullet shaped spaceplane (think a much smaller version of that Lochked CEV thats been floating around) launched on a Pegasus-like booster that can send a refridgerator sized, 1-2 ton piece of cargo, or a single astronaut to a space station. On reentery wings pop out and it glides down, possibly on landing gear or skids.
The advantage is the boosters could be popped out like cruise missiles, and the thing would be so small that reprocessing the thing would take no time at all. It could rush suppies and workers to a station, and since its dropped off the wing of a B-52, or a White Knight, launching several at a time would be affordable, and it could launch and return experiment quickly and cheaply.
Nevertheless, NASA gave a small group of outside experts an update on the Exploration Systems Architecture Study the week of June 27 and, according to a Washington-based source who had been briefed in turn, laid out a lunar exploration architecture that includes as many as six flights a year to the Moon.
Thats quite busy. In just a few short years we can cover enough sites to get a good idea of the resources at hand. But if we go much longer than that people will get bored.
On a side note, I hope they can get the manufactures to man rate the CEV on their EELVs. If an issue arises, or crashes to Earth, on the SRBs the whole shabang grinds to a halt.
According to this source, key elements of the lunar exploration architecture are coming into focus. For example:
* The CEV would be a reusable capsule capable of carrying four passengers to the Moon.
I'm glad its a reusable capsule, but thats about half as many seats as there should be.
* NASA would use a three-person version of the CEV capsule to ferry astronauts to and from the international space station three times a year.
He He He. Their planning on forcing the Russians to launch Soyuzs as well to keep the thing fully manned. Clever. I wonder what their going to put in place of the fourth seat.
* An unmanned version of the CEV would be used as a cargo carrier, conducting three space station resupply missions a year.
So that makes 12 SRB launches per year. Busy Busy Busy.
* Both the CEV launcher and the heavy-lifter would be shuttle-derived and cost about $3 billion a year once in service.
Are we launching a HLV for every lunar mission? Unless each lander is going to serve as a "mini-base" after the CEV takes off the first time, and use a rover or smaller reusable lander for follow up missions, thats a waste of tremendous and program threating proportions.
* The CEV would launch atop a single solid-rocket booster whose design is virtually the same as those that help lift the space shuttle off the launch pad.
Anyone know what tonnage the SRB can handle by itself?
* The heavy-lift vehicle initially would be sized to lift 100 metric tons into orbit for Moon missions but could evolve to loft 120 metric tons for Mars missions.
My only consern is that the inline option will limit the length of things we can launch. We will already have a second stage made of SSMEs, theres no good reason why we can have the option of the Shuttle-C configuration for cargo with more length than weight.
Overall, I think that if were not careful we'll end up with Apollo 18. And that won't get and retain the public attention we need. And if we throw away our transit stage, landers, ect well never have the money or the time to launch larger permenent base modules and ISTU equipment.
I haven't seen any mention of an efficient way to get lunar PGM's from the moon to the earth.
Maybe some kind of reusable and automated heavy lift cylinder that assumes lunar orbit then docks with an orbiting booster (manned?) which sends it off to earth orbit? Maybe the orbiting booster module could be attached to the ISS then every month or so it would detach and fly off to the moon to catch a cylinder of PGM's and bring it back to earth orbit. Then the booster would return to the ISS.
Maybe the space shuttle could then catch the orbiting PGM cylinder and bring it down in it's cargo bay? It's cargo capacity is 63.5 thousand pounds but I believe that is launch capacity, not sure if that is re-entry capacity as well.
A single HLV can send up dozens of single use heat shields and parachute packages. These are attached at whatever station is in LEO at the time. Then we just aim them at a desert.
I don't see the logic of putting the reactor on the train either.
You can provide more than enough power to thousands of miles of track and cars with a single stationary reactor.
What? A "simple" mag lev isn't good enough?
Imagine the speeds that could be reached in the thin Martian atmosphere.
It would be more than worth our while to leave the engines on the tank, at least for the inline option.
The tanks already carry more fuel than they use. After second stage seperation the tank can be hoisted to a parking orbit where it can be collected for later use.
After a little Bob Vila action, well have the cheapest Mars ship, habitat, or lunar base ever.
The advancement of Chinese submarines and missiles is something of a concern however, and a naval war would not be without serious US losses... unless we hurry up and build next generation DDX/LCS warships and more superquiet Virginia subs before then. Reactivating the Standard-III kinetic-kill SAM for tactical ballistic missile interception would be nice too.
The Chinese can't build SNBMs in the volume needed to land a knock out blow. We can assign two SSNs for every one they have.
Wouldn't the lost of plant life from this thing leave enough extra co2 in the atmosphere to counteract the cooling effect?
Its an interesting idea though, for other reasons. I reminds me of the defense station around the moon in startship troopers. If you run space elevators all around this thing, it would be the ultimate port of call.
The term "persistent vegetative state" keeps coming to mind.
From the video you can cleary see that the Shuttle is still alive. It responds!
What, too soon? :bars3:
That joke is lamer than FDR's legs. :;):
It should be noted that China does not yet have the deployed assets to made MAD a reality. They have at most a couple dozen single warhead ICBMs.
Really I expect some kind of trigger (Taiwan most likely) well before we are sparring with Chinamen on the Moon. If within the next 10 years or so, theres no question as to how it will end, in the destruction of the PLA and the commies overthrown by diehard capitalists and their workers who want there to be something left with which to make a living with when its over.
As for the succession of empires, the US will probably be the first to reliquish its power to a greater western democratic bloc.
People don't seem to understand that well never be able to do anything serious in space without LEO infrastructure. We'll never be able to send any more than expendable toys to the Moon, nor anything but Apollo like missions to Mars without breaking the bank on massive launchers.
LEO construction is unavoidable.
And who watches the independant watchdogs? :;):
Space settlements are inevatably going to be more socialist than anything seen on Earth today, or is at least functional today, simply because the survival bar is set that much higher.
But there still must be strong capitalist sectors to drive progress.
If a little trivial thing like raising the VAB roof a few feet, redoing the flame trenches, and building a new launch table are showstoppers then NASA has bigger things to worry about.
The whole point of the SDV is to use the existing set up.
If were going to rebuild the pad and assembly buildings, it will lead to sticker stock.
Were not going to be flying the shuttle by then. And if were not putting enough hardware up on the moon to justify putting the 3-4 launchers per year together we might as well throw in the towel cause were not going to be able to do much.
All they needed to do was make sure crap didn't fall off the tank.
The rest is just gravy.