New Mars Forums

I havn't read the article yet, to be clear, I wasn't refering to the present time, but to the fact that liquid water was present in the past of Mars. Liquid water is constently refered to explain the martian features. That liquid water was present during intermitent warming caused by meteorit impact could be possible, otherwise, liquid water present for long period of time in the past suggest that the martian atmosphere was much thicker and contained greenhouses gases in the past, this to overcome the fact that the sun was also fainter.
so where is that atmosphere gone ?
The dichotomy lowland/highland of MArs, with the Tharsis bulge, could be the result of a giant meteoritic impact which could have swept off this original martian atmosphere. But I don't know if this theory of impact has been discarded or not.

I mentioned the "face" because I am aware of the very exotic theory that explains the dichotomy in puting mars in orbit aorund a giant X planet. Tidaly locked by a synchronous rotation, the dichotomy is nothing more than a tidal effect. Later on, Mars has been released from its orbit by a cataclysmic  event, separated from planet X which has disapeared along with, hmmm, the martian civilization destroyed by that cataclysm, and "the face" is a left over from this old civization.  Who is the author of this theory, is he posting in this forum sometimes ?

democracy... you mean with the agreement of all the nations (the UN) or the agreement of what will be the strongest/fitest country in that time (supposedly the US ) by virtue of the darwinian law ? just kidding.

OK I don't know if you gonna agree with me about that:
If we consider the second law of thermodynamic, the increase of entropy with time, some society are more or less far of the equilibrium on earth. For example, the old native indian society were very well integrated ecologically in their natural envirronment, they generated relatively few entropy or "disorder" in their surrounding envirronment, like the red on Mars. The greens may be more similar to the western like society, which generated more waste or disorder (pollution, wars etc ) ouside their system than the indians, but also created more neg-entropy in their own, in the form of information (science, technology, philosophy etc). Those occidental societies were farther from the equilibrium than the indians according to the thermodynamic laws, but if you follow Erwin Schrodinger definition of life (life is a negantropy generator) they were also more "alive" since they generate more internal negantropy . And so, my point is to say that the green view of terrraforming can generate a state very far from the equilibrium  but also a state more alive.
Another way to say that the red domed mars is still very dead while the green PFC-saturated Mars is more alive.
I just wonder how much disorder we gonna have to trade in order to create neg-entropy on Mars.
Nothing forbid the  green terraformers to "export" this disorder to earth, for example.  Then , from the thermodynamic point of view, Auqakah is right, terraforming Mars could affect earth in a bad way, in a way we cannot imagine yet.

yes Shaun, water has probably been there. However, the early "faint sun" problem still remains, which make me think that something catastrophic might have happen to Mars.

I havn't heard anything about the  nothern/southern dichotomy for a long time. I don't think the problem is resolved, is it ? so if that dichotomy, hypothesis here, has been produced by a giant impact a la "Mission to Mars", we could imagine that the original atmosphere has been whipped off with a part of the martian crust.
what could be that original atmosphere I have no idea, maybe a mixture of strong greenhouse gas, such as NH3 or CH4, similar to the distant planets and which, given the early martian internal heat, could have been enough to support liquid water on the surface.

Of course, we will only know the answer when we penetrate into the secret martian base, the "face".

10 centuries ! some here will say it's a piece of cake. By that time, we all hope to go skying on olympus mons.
hmmm, I forgot that in 10 years, we might actually be back in the stone age or sort of, since a nuclear conflict become less and less improbable.

I think so, the atmosphere is so thin that any gaz molecule should try to expand to fill the maximum available volume. Plus, since that putative "PFC containing" gas is supposed to warm up, it is supposed to expand even more easily.
The recent H2/methane CH4 producing bacteria which has been discovered recently could be a base to devellop these "PFC producing" modified organisms. The CH4 is easily substituted by fluor if I remember well my organic chemistry courses, once CH3F is produced, the reaction continues until CF4 in presence of Fluor.
The modified bacteria could then be incorporated in an artificial lichen symbiont able to whisthand the cold.
That's science fiction, but not more than talking about building hundreds of CF4 factories on Mars.
I think that like in the past, certain technical achievement becomes realisable only when certain technologies are present, sometimes by chance. This is the case for the biotechnology, it makes  terraforming realisable, I hope so.

Come on, it's a web site. it's not true.
There are propaganda in both sense: the official propaganda and the official anti official propaganda.
In those times, trust no "information" before you can see the source, the comment of the source, the pictures, the comments of the pictures and the analysis of independant experts. Even so, it can still be a big lie.

About the cold war, indeed it seems I was right. Check at spacedaily com.

Japan has launched a spy satellite and North Corea has reacted violently by menacing japan of ?self destruction? because they consider this as a forecoming for a ?pre-emptive strike from the US?.
India launched a nuclear missile, Pakistan reacts by lauching its own nuclear missile immediatly after.
Russia/ America relations have never been so good since.... By the way, I expressed some concerns earlyer that Russia wanted to disengadge from the ISS, now I am sure, Russia will disengadge from the ISS.

China ? I am sure they are preparing some good surprise.....

And G.W. Bush said that ?after that? the world will be more secure and more peaceful.
Sure, but for me it?s clear, the new cold war has already begun.

Hi all,

Interesting thread. I think that the relative lack of CO2 wil make the terraformation more difficult of course, but not impossible. As you all mention, we will have to rely more on chlorofluorocarbon, preferably PFC.
take a look at PNAS online:

"Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 2001 Feb 27;98(5):2154-7
Keeping Mars warm with new super greenhouse gases.
Gerstell MF, Francisco JS, Yung YL, Boxe C, Aaltonee ET.
Division of Geological and Planetary Sciences, MS 150-21, California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, CA 91125, USA.
Our selection of new super greenhouse gases to fill a putative "window" in a future Martian atmosphere relies on
quantum-mechanical calculations. Our study indicates that if Mars could somehow acquire an Earth-like atmospheric composition and surface pressure, then an Earth-like temperature could be sustained by a mixture of five to seven fluorine compounds. Martian mining requirements for replenishing the fluorine could be comparable to current terrestrial extraction."

Fluor is abundant on Mars and so PFC could be produced, as they mention, but how many PFC factories would have to be installed to produce a significant amount of those gaz in just several decades ?
So i thought again about using the microorganisms metabolism. I searched in pub med for an organism which could produce PFC or homologues as a result of any metabolic waste, by product or intermediate metabolite, but I found nothing.
Fluor is the ultimate poison. It is generally an inhibitor of enzymatic reaction. In short, life doesn't like fluor. But so was O2 just after the anaerobic phase of life on Earth. So maybe it's gonna be possible to produce by genetic manipulation a though lichen symbiot which at one metabolic step could produce and wisthand a PFC gaz, that would certainly be a great leap in the Mars terraforming project.

No Josh, you need to make a story. Try to elaborate a little bit on that OBL/Iraq connection, and you have to include the french, otherwise you lost the contest.

No big deal, I copied a small part of it below. Ms Amanpour was interviewing Chirac about some rumors that have been repeated over and over in the american media, and you know that repeating any wrong information make it a true information. I personnaly watched an History Channel show last week about the nuclear Osirak reactor, and I read the French connection 2 from the New York Times (the French connetion 1 is not available for free online, but I've heard about it). This is without to mention the "crossfire" and other Information show. Globally the message delivered is that the french are linked, if not corrupted, by their interest in the iraki's oil and weapons sales, that J Chirak is a personnal friend of S Hussein etc.

I asked a colleague of my work, why he thinks the french are against the war, he just repeated the ambiant message delivered by the media: interests in oil, interests in weapons sales and he also added fear of attacks from muslim groups in france.
I am very sensitive about the way the facts are presented, because I think that there is a real anti-french campaign propaganda in the US.
But here is what said Chirac about that, all the interview was from cnn. com news:

".....CHIRAC: (laughter) That's myth, so to speak. Or controversy, if you will. I did indeed meet President Saddam Hussein when he was vice president in 1974 and '75, or '75 and '76. Never since. But in those days everybody had excellent relations with Saddam Hussein and with the Baath party. In those days it was seen as a modern party. Everybody had contacts with them.
I have not had any contacts ever since, and that is not something that everybody can say. Some important figures of the current U.S. administration had contacts with Saddam Hussein as late as 1983. I haven't. So we should not delve into controversy.
As for our interests, let us be clear about it. The trade of France with Iraq accounts for 0.2 percent of total French trade. So basically we have no economic interests in Iraq. Iraq isn't even in the list of the 60 largest trading partners of France. Not even the 60 largest.
As for oil import, they only account for 8 percent of Iraqi exports. The U.S. is importing five or six times more Iraqi petrol and Iraqi oil than we are importing. So these alleged motivations are clearly not serious motivations...."

It's not that J Chirac is 100% trustable. He 's not.  He can be easily abused. He is a "grand dadet" not very smart. I guess his councilors just told him to say that. But It might be true, since it comes from the mouth of an elected president (strangely elected but whatever).

However, at this point, does the truth matter anymore ?
The US and probably british public opinion have been shaped forever now: The french are responsible for the crisis, they sold weapons of mass destruction 3 months ago to the Iraki, Hussein has financed Chirac  campain, the frenchs are anti-american since they dare to critic the USA...

I'm gonna add this one: OBL is refugied in France, hiden with a false name, under protection of the secret french police.

pityful.

also Clark, if you choose the router solution to set up a harware firewall, be very carefull which router you buy.
Mine (a SMC7004ABR) worked wonderfully for a time, on a AOL timewarner cablemodem connection, and I networked successfully a PC and a mac, but after 2 months or so, suddenly the connection failed and I never figure out what was wrong in my router. It might very well be the firewall function of the router which prevent me to share internet.
Rebooting and reinitializing the router and modem changes notin.
If indeed the router/firewall is the culprit, then it is very efficient, even me I cannot connect to internet through this router !

So, ask your ISP wich router they do not advice.

Clark, you can also set up a firewall through a router. Of course a router is most useful if you share internet with more than 1 computer but the router can also set up a firewall.
Routers are pretty cheap those days, I had the SMC4004ABR for less than 80 bucks, which by the way causes me plenty of trouble right now, so even if a router is not the perfect solution, it might be an option.
And you can still keep the router for the days you get another PC.