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#527 Re: Human missions » What should be the focus of human space society/exploration? » 2005-12-06 21:24:29

Once upon a time all the land west of the Mississippi and east of the Imperial Valley was considered the Great American Desert. Upon furthur review and after a little work it was found to contain vast riches, beautiful sites, and would later become the bread basket of the country, and in a pinch, the bulk of the western world.

I would hope we wouldn't be quite so hasty this time around.

As for throwing large numbers around, I could have swore you were one those robots only people. The fact is NASAs would have roughly $425 billion ($17b x 25 years) between now and say 2030 under current budgets.  What are you doing with the other $125b? Not even the porkiest of burocrats couldn't make that much evaporate.

And for that price you will get a series of self sustaining outposts capable of slowly expanding themselves with little help from Earth AND 90% of the hardware fully developed and well tested for a Mars mission or just about any other target you can imagine that makes anything currently on the table look like a toy. And not just land there by the way, but repeat the process we just did on the Moon.

I really have to ask what you intend to do on Mars once you get there? Do you really think you are going to, as you put it, discover every piece, no matter how small, of the science puzzle, with a handful of 8 man reference missions? Then what?

#528 Re: Planetary transportation » Quadracycles » 2005-12-06 19:00:53

Would such repetitive motions wear out the joints on a space suit?

I doubt past or present space suits come with a 100,000 squat warranty simply because its never been an issue, but for long duration missions it could. Especially with all the dust.

I always liked the idea of using blimps for long range trips.I'm not sure how well those would scale down though.

#529 Re: Human missions » What should be the focus of human space society/exploration? » 2005-12-06 18:34:56

Commodore:  Not sure what other incredibly beautiful places you are referring to.  Nebula's?  By the time we get there we won't even be humans anymore.  If you mean the moon and mars, well I think God expects us to be smart about things.  There really is nothing we need on the moon or mars so going there has to be for pure reasons, the long term benefit of humanity, and it must be done only with the least amount of risk (and cost) as possible otherwise it's just plain stupid.  It's like using a Mercedes instead of a Buick to jump the Grand Canyon.

And having NASA and partner countries set up scientific and industrial "colonies" on either in the next 50 to 100 years isn't pure enough for you?

#530 Re: Human missions » What should be the focus of human space society/exploration? » 2005-12-06 17:05:54

Quasar:  People living in space?  Hmm, lets see.  God creates an incredibly beautiful planet with everything that humans need to prosper and what do they do?  They abandon it for the cold black void of space.  Sigh...trekkies.

So why did he make all the other incredibly beautiful places with everything humans need to prosper? So we can make pretty screensavers?

#531 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Space tug » 2005-12-05 21:19:05

The article discusses the maintaining of orbit, there doesn't seem to be any repairing going on here. I would think that this would be a great thing if they could bundle multiple tugs together on the second stage this or scale the launcher. The bigger the launcher required the less sense it makes. Also, don't push junk out farthur, deorbit it.

That doesn't mean repairing them is a bad idea. But it makes little sense when the satillite is not designed to be easily upgraded. Think of it like upgrading your computer. If you want to replace your CPU, but need to replace the motherboard (and then the video card and the power supply) to do it, it might be time to replace the whole shabang.

It would only really work if they were designed to industry standards to have interchangable and upgradeable parts.

#532 Re: Not So Free Chat » Space Exploitation vs. Space Exploration » 2005-12-03 11:35:18

Nike logos will cost essentially zero to add to the spacesuits.  Let Nike pay the marketing expenses and merely tender a net check to the space operator.

Why would Nike want to advertise on spacesuits? They didn't make the boots. Aliens probably can't use them. I don't think many people are going be more apt to buy things because the manufacturer paid to to have their logo on a piece of hardware. If that kind of brand loyalty still existed GM could afford to send each of their union workers to space once a year.

The economics of space are quite simple. It falls to NASA and its counterparts around the world to work out the hardware, and the methods, and find reasons for private industry to follow to the point were the rest of us can afford the hardware, and know the methods and the means to thrive.

#533 Re: Not So Free Chat » Space Exploitation vs. Space Exploration » 2005-12-01 21:16:09

If you ask me (which I note that no one did  tongue ), its not a matter of exploitation, but a matter of humanitys natural dendancy to seek "greener" pastures. When the will and technology is there, we will cross the fence, and if your here, I presume you think we are more or less on the threshold.

#534 Re: Unmanned probes » Mars Express (MEX) - ESA orbiter » 2005-12-01 17:56:39

There just covering their butts on the off chance that they are wrong.

If there was a dispute about it, they'd have handfull of other possibilities of what it could be.

#535 Re: Human missions » CEV Cargo and Crew Design Variations » 2005-12-01 17:43:07

Some people have a vested interest in being pessimistic.

I don't see how he can conclude operations cost will be as high as he claims. The vast majority of the present costs come from the constant rebuilding the shuttle. Nothing I've seen indicates that the longer SRBs will cost significantly more to refill, nor will the comparitively tiny reusable CEVs cost much to maintain. Everything else comes straight from the factory to the VAB, to the pad.

It won't quite be the SLBMs Griffen talked about, but it will be a huge improvment. I would be more concerned about a low flight rate leaving people with nothing to do half the time.

#536 Re: Human missions » CEV Cargo and Crew Design Variations » 2005-12-01 17:02:10

In fact, the short length of his article pretty much indicates that the "its too heavy" is about the only negative thing he could make up.

If you really want to read more, you could scroll to the bottom of the page To read the full article please download or read online the word document herewink

#537 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » What Type Of Government Should Mars Have?? - Mars Government » 2005-11-30 17:34:45

Democracy in some form obviously. Probably a combination of direct on the local level and representative on the planetary level. If certain parties on Earth don't like that, the parties that do will make sure you don't go.

Economics will be trickier. Life support will be a very tangible thing, so there is apt to either be a hard standard for ensuring people are fed, watered, pressurizeds and oxidized before they get here or are born, or a collective welfare system that would dwarf anything on Earth. Of course the advantage is there is a very clear line between needs and wants, so there remains plenty of room for a strong capitalist sector.

#538 Re: Unmanned probes » Hayabusa - JAXA asteroid rendezvous and sample return » 2005-11-30 17:02:08

With the design decision they made, probably not. I would have perfered the Rosetta method of firing harpoons at the target, reeling yourself in, and scooping up samples.

#539 Re: Unmanned probes » Mars Express (MEX) - ESA orbiter » 2005-11-30 16:30:27

Jackpot!!!

Mars Express has become the first spacecraft to detect reserves of water ice deep beneath the surface of the Red Planet, experts have announced.

The Marsis radar experiment carried onboard appears to have discovered water ice more than 1km below ground.

It is thought the greatest reservoir of retained water on Mars could be found beneath the surface, perhaps providing a habitat for microbial life.

The US-European Marsis team report their findings in the journal Science.

Underground layered deposits at the planet's north pole have an upper unit thought to be dominated by water ice. This water ice is believed to be nearly pure, with only about 2% contamination by dust.

Beneath this ice layer is a lower unit containing sand cemented with water ice.

Buried crater

Mars Advanced Radar for Subsurface and Ionosphere Sounding (Marsis) data from Chryse Planitia, in the planet's northern equatorial region, reveal an almost circular structure about 250km across, lying about 2km underground that the authors propose is a buried impact basin.

Chryse Planitia is thought to have been shaped by massive outflow of floodwaters from the Valles Marineris region and other areas of the northern highlands.

A linear feature in the presumed crater is though to represent the floor of the impact basin. The strength of the reflection possibly suggests there is a body of water ice preserved in the impact basin dating from the time of the outflow.

"If the water got trapped there it could still be there even billions of years later," Jeff Plaut, Marsis principal investigator at Nasa's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, told the BBC News website.

He added: "We have found no convincing evidence yet for subsurface liquid water."

Roberto Seu of the University of Rome "La Sapienza" told the BBC News website: "Due to the complexity of the data processing, we are trying to confirm our hypotheses with further analyses.

"We need to be careful, Marsis is an unprecedented instrument, so there are no other data sets to compare it with."

Go south

The science team will begin using the radar experiment to search for liquid water in late December.

During this period of science operations, which will last until March 2006, Marsis will collect data from the southern polar region and mid-latitude regions.

Data collection with Marsis is to a large extent dependent on the orbit of Mars Express staying on the night side of the planet. Nighttime conditions are ideal for radar sounding; the planet's ionosphere hinders the technique and its effects are strongest during the day.

Two 20m-long (65ft) hollow fibreglass "dipole" booms comprise the instrument's primary antenna, while a 7m-long (23ft) "monopole" boom acts as a receive-only antenna.

Marsis sends out pulses of radio waves from the primary antenna to the planet's surface and analyses the time delay and strength of the waves that return.

Analysis of those waves that penetrate the soil and bounce back give information on transitions between materials with different electrical properties, such as rock and water.

#540 Re: Unmanned probes » Hayabusa - JAXA asteroid rendezvous and sample return » 2005-11-30 16:02:24

Well, causing pebbles to fly at your space craft at high speed is generally a no-no.

And what else would suddenly cause a fuel leak?

Also I've heard that they won't actually know what, if anything is in there untill it returns. If it returns.

#541 Re: Human missions » What should be the focus of human space society/exploration? » 2005-11-30 15:25:06

The Moon isn't as good of a jumping-off point as most make it out to be. The "Lunar reasources" are limited only to rocket fuel, which will be difficult to extract in any quantity, and Hydrogen may not be available at all. I remind that high-energy nuclear drives require hydrogen as a working fluid, and no other gas is an acceptable substitute.

The Earth also has one edge that the Moon won't have for many decades or a century: an industrial base. All our manufacturing ability (rockets, fuel, food, colony equipment) is currently on Earth, and putting this capability on the Moon will require a completly, totally mind-boggling trillion-dollar investment to make the Moon's cheif advantage (low gravity) worthwhile - IF the Moon has Hydrogen - for a fairly small bennefit. It doesn't make alot of sense to put rocket factories and supply bases and colony kit builders there. Its fairly questionable if its worthwhile to put only put fuel depots there or in orbit if there is a little snow in the soil.

We don't need a base that is truely self-sustaining on the Moon any time soon, think of it as a drilling rig or antarctic research station, except producing at least a majority of the fuel needed to operate it. The food, hardware, and crew will be shuttled to and from Earth.

I think you underestimate how much can be done with the mineral resources that were going to haul around just to get oxygen. Keep in mind that the goal is to build things out local materials. Launch the right set of tools and they not only be able to build much of what they need, but build replacement tools as well.

How is a Antartica-style base any less of a dead end than the ISS?

#542 Re: Human missions » Nasa Shuttle, ISS Woes & To-Mars » 2005-11-30 14:51:15

The trouble is they have nothing with which to do it with. They lack the shuttle, and even if they get that back they may not have the money or the time to perform the missions, even assuming that what they are doing now solves the problem.

They must take the shuttle out of the equation for getting the modules to orbit. We have a HLV on the drawing board. Pay the Russians to increase supply missions and crewed missions, retire one shuttle and prep the other two for long duration missions. When the HLV is ready, launch the remaining modules in bundles attached to modified tugs based on the EDS to be for the moon missions, then launch the shuttle only when needed to attach the components the ISS can't attach its self. With luck you can count such missions on one hand.

At this point its the only choice I see to both finish the ISS and make it worth our while, as the driving force behind the early developement of the HLV.

The ISS is the only large orbital game in town for at least the next 20 years, and we've aready paid for it. Lets turn it into the fire under our butts instead of the anchor on our ankles.

#543 Re: Unmanned probes » Hayabusa - JAXA asteroid rendezvous and sample return » 2005-11-28 16:19:10

I bet the fellow who came up with the idea of setting off a small explosion right next to the spacecraft hoping it would get peppered with debris is rather red faced right now.  tongue

#544 Re: Human missions » What should be the focus of human space society/exploration? » 2005-11-28 15:49:32

Just because something is hard, dangerous or expensive does not mean it should not be done. The journey is just as important as the destination.

As for the particulars, I think our primary goal over the next 30 years or so is to establish a permenent self-sustaining "location" on the Moon by using local resources. From there the local resources, low gravity, lack of an atmosphere, and the technologies developed along the way will allow us to go in any direction we want. Be it back to Earth to build orbital infrastructure, space evelvators and so on, or to Mars and the rest of the outer or inner solar system.

#545 Re: Human missions » Mars Base Designed (Children/UN) » 2005-11-28 15:04:12

Anyone else find the thought of the UN having an "Office of Outer Space Affairs" both comical and disturbing? Its probably run by the Amish.

That said, this is an excellent example of objective based education. Give kids an overall goal and all the supporting things will make more sense. Kudos.

#546 Re: Human missions » Look out! Buzz Aldrins got a plan... » 2005-11-21 19:41:32

The advantage of a cycler is it big enough to be largely self-sustaining, with the capability to grow food, have simulated g, and support large crews comfortably. In other words negate most, if not all of the downsides of a long trip.

Also, there is simply no way that sending a relatively small shuttlecraft to meet up with the cycler is going to use anywhere near as much fuel as the comparitively much larger conventional craft. To meet up with it all you need to do is enter an eliptical earth orbit that happens meet with the cycler for the required amount of time. From there is a matter of very small changes, depending on your choosen method. That way if  you miss, your going to swing around anyway. A small burn will let you aerobrake. Granted, your going to need a hell of a push to deploy the cycler to begin with, but spread that out among several, if not dozens of cycles, its a bargain. I believe the point is that the speed is maintained via gravity assist on every planetary approach, thus there is little loss of speed.

The biggest cost of a cycler is setting up the infrastructure at both ends to operate your shuttle craft, and the cycler itself. Ultimately I think the people that control the purse strings will stomach a high starting cost better (going to Mars is suppose to be hard) than moderately high recuring cost (shouldn't this be getting easier (yes)).

#547 Re: Unmanned probes » James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) - 6.5m mirror, L2 orbit » 2005-11-21 13:53:41

Someone want to explain why it cost a half billion dollars to store a satillite in a warehouse for 2 years?

It cost Paris Hilton less money to do absolutely nothing. roll

#548 Re: Human missions » Nasa Shuttle, ISS Woes & To-Mars » 2005-11-17 16:27:31

IF we reduce the role of the Shuttle to merely being the instrument to attach the peices, then we can use the ISS as a means to jumpstart the VSE. Start the Heavy Lifter ASAP, and use the ISS modules as "operational guinea pigs".

Time is running out for that though.

#549 Re: Not So Free Chat » Froggy's » 2005-11-16 16:18:16

But I thought the French Loved Tom Cruise.  tongue

The French will like any american actor speaking few words of french, and will love all americans which speak french.

I only mention it because I remember some American actor went to France not long ago and got a medel for being famous or something.

#550 Re: Not So Free Chat » Froggy's » 2005-11-14 16:53:45

But I thought the French Loved Tom Cruise.  tongue

Anyway, its nice to see Chirac using the numbers of cars burned as a measure of success against the rioters.  Nevermind that the affected areas are probably running out of cars, or people are parking them out of reach.  lol

"The Germans arn't taking any more territory! We gave the rest of it to them." roll

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