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#26 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads » 2004-02-23 15:50:56
SohoBoy,
Perhaps you Brits/Euros should spend a little more money and work on your landings
Just a friendly jab, heheheh
Link
no problemo...
Always thought it was an outside shot myself... done on the cheap and in short order as an afterthought bolt-on to the real mission, ESA's Mars Espress orbiter, by a bunch of amateurs (university professors and post-grad students and a motley crew of mainly British and European companies) who had never done a space mission before. At least NASA has had 40 yrs of practice and accumulated experience, so they should be getting reasonably good at it by now.
We had an excellent TV documentary about the whole Beagle caper. The boss Colin.. ummm... forgotten his name... Professor Muttonchops...seemed to spend half of his time scrabbling around for funding. The parachute testing consisted of throwing the package out of the back of a cargo plane...once. And ESA were constantly shaving their weight allowance during the development process, as the extra kilos originally thought surplus to requirements were reclaimed by Mars Express orbiter. The most serious problem they had was getting the landing bag to work - bursting on inflation. Given that scenario and the failure rate of all missions that have ever been sent to Mars, I wasn't really surprised when the Beagle went quiet.
Nice try...I'm sure it was worth it for the experience gained. Hopefully we'll have another go one day
#27 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads » 2004-02-23 14:06:19
[=http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/1N130763663EFF0454P1817L0M1.JPG.html]Hey! carefull boys!
Dont tip it over!
#28 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads » 2004-02-23 13:45:35
Why is the the microphoto camera used by Spirit and Opportunity such a useless piece of junk?
Far too many of the images it produces are out of focus and thus useless. When stuff is in focus it would seem to be more by luck than judgement
First of all, the the microscopic imager is a fixed-focus camera - for simplicity I'm sure. How would you like a multi-million $$$ mission become crippled because the fancy auto-focus system of an important camera fails under the extreme conditions? Fortunately, the KISS rule seems to have been used by JPL. (Did you know that all the cameras on the rovers use the same CCD design?)
Third, yes - this will inevitably lead to "missed" images, since both A) the calculated distance to the object might be off a bit, and B) the robot arm (while extremely accurate) might be off slightly. But so what is the big deaL? Just take another series of images.
Fixed focus?... lol... so it is a Box Brownie on a stick...how delightfully 19th century.
missed images?...how about missed sequences. And on a mission with a designed life of 90 days (hopefully a lot longer) they dont have time to waste.
a reliable autofocus system adding a few ounces of weight couldn't have been that difficult... then other images a few mm above and below the plane of optimum focus could be part of the programming. It could also be designed to 'fail safe' leaving the lens at the hyperfocal distance, at which point the 'Brownie on a stick' technique could take over.
Rxke
Also, you got to keep in mind that the lightlevels on Mars are lower than on earth, regular auto-focus doesn't work that well in such conditions. And again, lower light means bigger operture-openings (/f) leading to a more shallow depth of field"
the light is full sunshine in an atmosphere 100 times thinner that Earths with no significant cloud cover - and sofar, no major duststorm to contend with. Keeping fingers crossed on that one. The light is dimmer but isnt that dim. Certainly a lot brighter than heavy cloud on Earth - and my digital cameras autofocus can cope with that just fine
And there are ways round the low light problem...my camera automatically sends out a small beam of red light when the ambient light gets too low
#29 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads » 2004-02-22 17:02:56
[=http://www.lyle.org/mars/bysol/2-049.html]More useless microphotos
Why is the the microphoto camera used by Spirit and Opportunity such a useless piece of junk?
Far too many of the images it produces are out of focus and thus useless. When stuff is in focus it would seem to be more by luck than judgement
One would have thought that with a budget of $400 million per lander NASA could have afforded a reliable camera. I have a ?300 digital camera made by Canon that can do better than that in macro mode. I've seen some cameras that can focus right down to the dust on the front lens element, so what's the problem?
Autofocusing systems which scan back and forth across the full mechanical focus range electronically hunting for the image of maximum contrast work just fine. What is Spirit and Opportunitys camera using? Whoever designed it should be fired. Next time NASA should contract out the cameras to a company such as Canon, Nikon or Pentax which knows what it's doing. Such poor performance would never be accepted in the domestic market.
Yours in frustration, and somewhat fed up of looking at grey fuzz. What a waste of time.
#30 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads » 2004-02-14 02:56:41
Anybody got any ideas on what this mysterious feature is?
A beautiful little crater-like or sand dune crescent feature exists at the foot of the Opportunity lander with undisturbed wind rivulets in it. The rover's wheel almost touched it when it drove by, yet they drove past without taking a closer look or having any comments.
The really intriguing thing about it is that there is some sort of bright white material in the rivulet basins, like windblown grains of light material, perhaps lighter windblown sediments or minerals.
[http://www.freewebs.com/atomoid/CraterCrusties.jpg]http://www.freewebs.com/atomoid/CraterCrusties.jpg
[http://www.keithlaney.com/OCI/V3.jpg]Heres a better view
the crater is obviously not a place where Mars dust generally accumulates, otherwise it would have filled in years ago.. the finest erosional material is on average lifted out by the wind and dispersed. this is supported by the look of the soil microphoto showing the spheres which is 'gritty' rather having the ultrafine grain appearance of the 'mystery soil' seen in the first Spirit microphotos
some may temorarily accumulate when theres a dust storm... I think thats what this is.
#31 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads » 2004-02-14 02:44:47
Do you have an information that suggest it's a 3d mapping ?
No URL, but they showed a 4-5 sec flyaround on NASA TV during the press conference. They must have made up a composite of the various in focus bits of the microphotos and then used it as a texture map. They have some algorithm that can extract 3d data from the level of focus in a series of 2d images which 'focus through' the same scene.
I'm surprised NASA didn't post it as a movie, its quite cool.
#32 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads » 2004-02-13 14:39:49
I don't see an octopus by the way, I see a sea-star shape on the upper right corner of the .tif picture.
In the TIFF image the object i'm talking about - 'eye' is at x 1060 y 123
compare with [http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/1M1295 … 1.JPG.html]a raw image
...and not to be outdone [http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/2P1299 … 1.JPG.html]Spirit finds an eroded layered rock - no balls
...and yes, according to NASA TV the oddly distorted Microphoto is the first frame of a 3D fly around. Its decription at NASA photojournal is misleading
#33 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads » 2004-02-13 10:35:59
I hate to state the obvious... But haven't you noticed that the tiff image (also available on JPEG form on the MER website: [http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … B019R1.jpg]here) is a rendering of a 3D model of the cliff face - and not a photo?
No I didnt.
And thats not how the image is being billed at NASA Photojournal on the
[http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA05276]page describing the image
It's being billed as a composite of several exposures..
Apart from which, what would be the point of mapping a 2D image onto a 3D wireframe, and then saving out a 2D image which has exactly the same POV as the 2D original? all you end up with is a copy which has less information than the orginal image, not "A sharp look at Robert E'
The criticisms still stands. The extreme change in appearance of the 'octopus' object in question implies that somebody has been 'creative' with this image.
None of the raw images to my eye provide any indication that the TIFF is anything other than a bit of creative speculation. Look at the raw jpegs yourself, and follow through the argument in my first post. Those 'tentacles' shown in the TIFF don't exist.
Many busy editors are going to be picking up this image from NASA photojournal, cropping it and publishing it without realising what it is. not an original but a 'creative' composite.
I see that the image is also being offered without any explanation of what it is, or credit, at the Mars Rover site.
[http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … 0212a.html]http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery....2a.html
#34 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads » 2004-02-13 07:38:01
Is NASA deliberately 'sexing up' its own images to make them more interesting to the press?
this query is prompted by the appearance of a very odd version of one of the recent Opportunity Microscopic imager images on the Mars section of NASA's [http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/targetFamily/Mars]Planetary Photojournal website. This site would appear to have the print media as its target audience, as all the images are presented as TIFFs, the industry standard format for book, magazine and newspaper production. A selection of the more interesting NASA photos and illustrations are archived here. The image in question is entitled "A Sharp Look at Robert E Full Resolution: TIFF (2.076 MB) here it is . I suggest you download it.
[http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/tiff/PIA05276.tif]http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/tiff/PIA05276.tif
and here is the same raw image ( there are several to chose from with slightly different planes of focus, but this wiil do) on the Mars rover website in JPEG format
[http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … 33M2M1.JPG]Opportunity Sol 15 micro image, Robert E
at this stage the best procedure is to layer both images up in a single Photoshop doc for easy comparison.
What do we immediately notice?
Despite being billed as a " Sharp look at Robert E" the photojournal TIFF is anything but. Its smaller and softer. A lot of the outer image that is present in the JPEG is cut off by the oddly irregular black border in the TIFF. Why? A carefull look at the image reveals the answer. Weirdly, it looks like its been processed through an HDTV video graphics system. The image is interlaced, as can be seen by zooming in on the irregular black edge or the right edge of the sphere, where the givaway single pixel 'combing' effect can be seen - looks like a microscale castle crenellation running vertically. this can be seen along all high contrast vertical edges in the image. Every even line of pixels in this image is offset one pixel horizontally from every odd line. This is precisely the sort of artefact introduced by video processsing that Photoshops 'De-interlace' filter is designed to remove. And so it does.
Thats not the worst of it. examine the center of the edge of the top layer in the TIFF. What do you see. Something that looks like a small octopus. In the TIFF image the objects 'eye' is at x 1060 y 123. It appears to have 3 'tentacles' lieing to its right. The shorter fatter bottom tentacle lies along the edge of the layer , and gives the appearance of squirting a line of black 'ink'. call this tentacle one. Above this are two thinner curved tentacles separated from tentacle 1 by an obvious gap. tentacle 2's shadow is casting down into this gap. tentacles 2 and 3 have a similar regular tube appearance terminated by a slightly bulbous biforked structure... a bit like a claw.
Now examine this 'fossil' in the raw jpeg. It doesn't look anything like the tiff. the top tentacle 3 doesn't even exist. in its place is a rather vague convex oval dimple. there is a hint of tentacle 2 but with nothing like the defintion seen in the tiff. which is odd, as overall the TIFF has less definition than the RAW jpeg. There is no hint of the line of black 'ink' squirting out to the right along the edge of the layer.
looking at the top rock layer as a whole, in the TIFF it looks as if it has been swirled and smeared, the same effect as may be obtained by applying Photoshops 'Liquify' effect. If you overdo this effect you end up with highly characteristic pointed 'pinch outs' and indeed one of these can be seen at x 1070 y64 in the TIFF. The typical smearing of fine detail which occurs when using Liquify can also be seen by comparing the dark pits/grit sitting in a shallow concavity on the horizontal surface of the top rock layer which have a normal appearance in the JPEG but a quite smeared in the TIFF
What to make of this. The manipulation of the octopoid feature seems quite deliberate. The appearance of tentacle 3, its similarity to tentacle 2 and especially the appearance of a gap between tentacle 1 and 2 where before was just a crease points towards deliberate image artworking. Gaps between objects in images dont just appear, you have to insert them. The overall swirling of the top right hand corner in the TIFF gives it the appearance of being more 'organic' than it really is. None of the other three corners of the image show such 'swirly' distortion, and this points to deliberate intent.
This looks like a propaganda piece by NASA to promote interest in the Mars space program. People will see this image in the press and think "hmm that looks interesting...Is that a fossil?... or maybe they won't, but unconciously the 'organic alien' theme will come across.
The wonder is how they thought they could get away with something so blatently a bit of artworking when none of the other Micro photo TIFFS at NASA Photojournal look anything like this. The TIFFs of the brushed surface of Adirondack, and the soil microphotos are in everyway in accordance, both in terms of appearance and resolution with the `Raw images at the Mars Rover site.
I am not happy. Explanations and/or excuses on the back of an envelope, please
#35 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads » 2004-02-11 12:00:15
With all this stuff going on, I'm just wondering if anybody else is finding it hard to keep up with everything? Maybe I'm just slow.
I find the back and forth site navigation required to get at the hi-res raw images at NASA extremely tedious.
far better is [http://www.lyle.org/mars/]http://www.lyle.org/mars/ which is also posting everything. Click the "Raw by sol' links at the left of page. the hi res images when you get to them can then be navigated sequentially by clicking the thumbnails at the top of page, rather than the up and down the heirarchy business at [http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/]http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/
lyle.org also have an automated system which is generating all possible stereo and pseudocolour images. Heres a nice [http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery]recently added example. I think that might be Spirits next target rock 'Whitey' at the bottom of frame, but don't quote me.
Keith Laney, professional digital image processor, and amateur anomaly hunter, is putting up some excellent colour composites on [http://www.keithlaney.com/]his web site.
Personally I think he's doing a better job with the colour images than NASA is. For example compare [http://www.keithlaney.com/OCI/O8.jpg]Keiths version of Snout (aka Stone Mountain) with the [http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/tiff/PIA05235.tif]official NASA version (NB TIFF image, 3Mb)
I know which one I prefer the look of - and notice how much more detail there is in the shadow areas (e.g the 'spheres on stalks' under snout) in Keiths version which is just gone in the NASA version...hmm... NASA still seems to be adding an overall orange colour cast to some of their images in the interest of 'accuracy' - whatever that means. Unfortunately all it it does is mask subtle colour differences in the images which can provide useful information. I prefer the more Earth like look even if it isnt so 'accurate'
if you fancy having a go at producing your own colour images from the raw sources, heres [http://www.keithlaney.com/spirit_color_ … ration.htm]Keiths explanation of whats involved, and a [http://www.ominous-valve.com/pancam.html]colour chart at lyle.org. Required is some image editing software where you can manipulate the R, G, B colour channels individually. The key is understanding the NASA filenames, which indicate which of the RGB channels the RAW image needs to reside in
#36 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads » 2004-02-11 05:45:28
Evidence of secondary deposition process on Opportunity ledge. Sol 17 Pancam:
[http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/1P1296 … 1.JPG.html]http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/1P1296 … 1.JPG.html
look at the rock over to the right at x 800 y 700
the 'bedding planes' are edge on roughly towards us on this rock, but there is a curved flattish tapering tube in a 'W' shape on the surface of the rock which cuts across the bedding plane. If thats just an erosional feature, it's pretty freaky as the bedding does look to be running underneath it. We could do with a better close up to figure this one out.
Best guess? a splat of thick liquid impact or volcanic ejecta which has splashed across the fractured face of the rock. More fanciful and interesting interpretations are of course possible.
#37 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads » 2004-02-10 17:50:19
Watch the quotations; you formatted it to look like I said "lava entering water" when it was really dickbill.
Yes SIR!!!
...dont worry...I'll get the the hang of it..eventually
hup two three four...
#38 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads » 2004-02-10 16:50:30
a nice... um... trick of the light?
layering up images in Photoshop taken in different lighting and then flicking thru the layers is a good way of getting a feel for the 3d shapes of objects.. Single images can be very deceptive. The above lept out at me while working thru sol 13.
The light coloured 'tendril' attached to the rock appears to 'inflate' towards camera at the same time as the shadows are lenghtening towards camera. As its seems to be attached to the side of the rock facing camera you would expect it to dissapear into the shadow, not vice versa.very odd.
pseudo colour composites from [http://www.lyle.org/mars/]http://www.lyle.org/mars/
#39 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads » 2004-02-10 16:00:07
But at one point, we must see that hematite somewhere, no ?
I was watching the news conference earlier and one of the NASA guys said that the measurements done so far show that the richest source of haematite is the surface of the plain beyond the crater and that the outcrop itself measures low/no haematite - but as the spheres only make up a small proportion of the outcrop that does not rule them out as the source. That they may well be is supported by the observation that the airbag marks, where the spheres have been pushed below the surface show a low haematite reading.
[http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/jpeg/PIA05204.jpg]http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/jpeg/PIA05204.jpg
spectrum red = high haematite , blue low haematite
just a guess... nodules = blue grey = ferric oxide aka haematite, mars dust = red = ferrous oxide. Same colour difference as is seen in the banding in ferruginous marls on earth when the depositional environment switches from oxidising to reducing.
#40 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads » 2004-02-10 14:49:42
Sohoboy,
I can see the fan around the stem, nice find. Could you post enhanced Photoshop pic.
Link
[http://www.davidianwilson.pwp.blueyonde … 37_mod.gif]Mars sphere, tubes 'coral' patch enhanced
its a gif, but as the original is greyscale theres no visible quality loss. 482Kb
all they've said sofar about the composition of the outcrop is that it has a high sulphur content - significantly more than any other Mars rock so far analysed.
#41 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads » 2004-02-10 11:02:35
Could it be molten lava entering water ?
I doubt it. The layers are:
1. too thin - lava flows are generally much thicker
2. too flat and even. The pillow lavas Ive seen are much more irregular
remember the scale. The biggest rocks in opportunity crater are only about half a meter high. These layers are really thin.
Im still hoping for Limestone. Deep ocean sediment is my guess. So is this a critter that lives on/in the ocean bottom and grows by adding concentric layers of cells over a secreted skeleton? It's the way they hang off the rocks [http://www.keithlaney.com/OCI/P3.jpg]on stalks that gets me. Whatever they are they're a lot tougher than the "cement". I/m not too happy with the volcanic spit theory as they look too regular. Are there any volcanic Earth rocks that have inclusions as regular as this? (geologist in the house?)
Looking forward to the RAT having a go at one of these and the spectrometer results
#42 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *3* - ...continued from previous threads » 2004-02-10 10:42:30
[=http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/tiff/PIA05237.tif]http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/tiff/PIA05237.tif
of note
the three short 'tubes' on the left edge of the spherule. Radiating from the comnnection point of the tube nearest camera a 'fan' barely of surface striations with a jagged edge. This can just be made out with the naked eye but becomes obvious when enhanced in Photoshop. Whether the single cells which makeup these striations are an artefact or not is moot.
[http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/1M1295 … 33M2M1.JPG]http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/1M1295 … 33M2M1.JPG
have a close look at the patch on the shelf above the spherule where the surface has flaked off in an irregular circle at x440 y140..hmmm...looks just like coral skeleton inside
