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Didn't all of the main characters die as a result of various equipment problems?
Oops! Sorry. That was Titan by Stephen Baxter. Same author, same premise, but more dead people.
That's been asked a hundred times, and from thread to thread there is only one consensus:
Follow the water. The most desirable landing site is one where the crew can mine or drill for water.
Currently, I like this site, since it is equatorial (better climate) with potential permafrost:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/natu … tm]Elysium "Pack Ice"
However, I can offer much better advice than that. Be patient, and wait for the MARSIS radar array currently in orbit to start returning data. Ground penetrating radar will lead us right to the largest water deposits, without any guesswork.
Gee, you'd think a bushel of US dollars wouldn't buy you lunch.
Scott, I've heard some very good arguments that the US should go back to a real goods currency standard (Gold, oil, etc.) like Madagascar. I've also heard some fair arguments that we should ditch conventional money altogether and start using barter clubs or some other mode of exchange like parts of Argentina. I've even heard the argument the federal reserve doesn't have to be public to operate effectively and that our current system yields a fair average value if the other countries of the world just keep playing the same game.
But I've never heard an argument that armed internal conflict will make the dollar a harder currency. How is that supposed to work?
Has anyone read Voyage, by Stephen Baxter?
This book may not be the best comparison. Didn't all of the main characters die as a result of various equipment problems? (Good book, with wonderful descriptions of of the Apollo hardware. I'm still "at stable two" in my nightmares!)
Still, when I consider the amount of material those Saturn V rockets launched over the course of the Apollo program, a comparison with Space Station Alpha indicates that they could have handled enough hardware to get a crew to Mars, even if the on-orbit assembly took three years.
How many years ago did the first one fly? Almost forty?
Empires are built on inequality; Romans had their slaves, so did the Turks.
Black slaves picked cotton, now the Mexican immigrants are on the bottom.
Thanks Marsdog. Knowing what ultimately happened to the Romans, the Ottomans, and the Antebellum US, I'm sure I'll sleep well tonight.
PS: I should point out that the best analogy in US history for our present day Mexican immigrants isn't the black slaves, but rather the Irish immigrants of the same period. It was often pointed out that the Northern US states where slavery was outlawed never needed any slaves. They had the Irish.
Those who do not remember their history are doomed to repeat it.
CM:-
[...] Which Hazcam images are you referring to? And I'm sure you have a further hypothesis in mind about the dune in question, though I can't fathom what it might be.
I don't understand what you mean by "displaced dust" as opposed to "displaced soil".
I was just using "dust" and "soil" interchangeably. The important point involves the amount of dust kicked up.
The front and rear hazard cameras are giving the best views of Opportunity's wheels and tracks.
Heres]http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/f/024/1F130314566EDN0400P1111L0M1.HTML]Here's a sol 24 view of a trench Opportunity dug in Eagle Crater.
Note the tread marks in and around the trench. Opportunity's front wheel was revved while being moved back and forth to dig a trench. This worked that wheel in as deep as it is currently buried. You can see the tread marks in the trench from the last pass where Opportunity rolled its wheel out and turned to use its microscopic imager. Adjacent tracks from the other wheels are covered by dust flung out of the trench. Those tread marks are wiped out next to the trench because material was flung out of the trench - displaced - and landed on top of them.
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … .HTML]This is an image from sol 445.
Opportunity backed away from a soil target and got stuck just as deeply as it had dug down on sol 24, only with all six wheels this time. However, even with all six wheels churning, there is only a fraction of the soil displacement seen on sol 24. Later efforts to dig out involved repeated wheel revving and turning, just like sol 24, but still with less displacement. Almost all the loose soil is confined to the trench.
I believe that I can see evidence of cracking in the soil surface just adjacent to the trench. This would imply that the soil surface was not just settled, but set - adhering together and not simply loose grains. Unfortunately, the hazcam resolution isn't high enough to confirm this. It could just be a trick of the light, or packed material flung off by Opportunity's wheels.
They need to use the !#@$&! imager.
I just bet on 2.0 meters, which would imply the comet is composed of an aerogel heat shield over steel plate.
I'm expecting my copper plaque any day now.
I figure worst case scenario they’ll use the instrument arm boom to push Opportunity off the dune.
I don't know... So far they haven't even used it to look at what they're stuck in.
The composition of the dust is of interest. Look at the hazard camera images. Except where it was churned up by all the wheel spinning, the loose dust is mostly confined to the wheel track. Photos of earlier trenching efforts show mounds of displaced soil, but not here. Opportunity hardly displaced any dust cutting into that dune, even where it dug in four inches deep.
Their current simulant mixture is the first thing the ground crew has come up with that the MER couldn't hop right out of, even when they bottomed it out. That's one tough little RC car. Preliminary tests with Opportunity (on Mars, not the sandbox model) have shown that they can get it out, so the panic is over and we're just waiting for the mission plan to catch up.
Still, it seems a shame to leave without taking a look down...
I have a wild guess as to the composition of Opportunity's potential new home: http://www.keram.se/eng/pdf/freeze_gran … pdf]Freeze Dried Salt
A patch of salt, previously saturated with water, will create a crushable matrix of fine particles when freeze dried. The salt patch will hold its original volume until disturbed, but readily grind down to a fine dust when a wheel is rolled over the top of it. That would explain the rover team's inability to find a soil simulant that will settle properly - a freeze dried formation would never have settled at all. It's possible that this is what Opportunity is now stuck in.
If upwellings of water were frequent during the last drying stages in Meridiani, deposits like this could be common, and potentially much larger than the little dust pile Opportunity now faces. Its conceivable that Opportunity could find a freeze dried deposit large enough to swallow it whole.
This could be the Marsian equivalent of quicksand.
Incidentally, saturation would have to have been recent. Such a formation would weather very quickly, even on Mars.
I predict that the MER team will be able to back Opportunity out of this dust pile, gaining valuable experience for the many, MANY more such deposits they will encounter on their journey south. Also in my magic marsian crystal ball, I see more mini-craters like the two nearby, which I suspect are more related to the unstable dune structure than to any meteorite.
If I'm correct, Opportunity's journey just became a bit more harrowing. I look forward to the imager data needed to test this hypothesis.
Odd. :hm:
Opportunity has been in the same location for two weeks, a sand dune of completely unknown composition, unlike anything encountered before.
Why haven't they attempted to use the microscopic imager?
There are no imager photos and no hazard camera images of the imager in use. The simulants they are using for their terrestrial research model are reportedly unsatisfactory. (They can't get the duplicate rover here on earth to dig itself in.) However, nobody's bothered to take a look at what they're actually stuck in.
You're putting too much emphasis on fashion. Plenty of people are perfectly happy driving nondescript cars older than the space shuttle. Besides, when your vehicle's engines are already running at 5000 degrees with a million horsepower under the bell, adding more flare isn't physically possible.
What's needed is personalized rockets.
I agree about the color thing, though. Right now, NASA will launch any color rocket you want as long as it's bland white. The only exception is some crusted brown foam on a shuttle external tank - blech! (It used to be bland white, though, which was actually worse.) Whatever happened to that slick lunar module shine? How about one of those cool grey and red Indian jobs instead?
What about bumper stickers? I see no "If you can read this, introduce yourself" stickers on our space station. That's shameful. If my dad can drive around with an "I brake for asteroids" sticker, why can't NASA? (On second thought, don't answer that.)
Maybe a Garfield doll in the window? Or a Valentina Tereshkova doll in the same pose?
These ships need some character.
Even if we do that, it still not going to solve GM or Ford problem and nor will it stop the collapse of the US Economy either. This strategy, may or may not slow down the collapse, but it will do absolutely nothing to stop either the economic problems of the United States or GM or Ford.
The very fact that Ford & GM are attempting it suggests that they hope it might solve some of their problems, and I suspect that it will. They still have sufficient resources to meet overseas competition if they can just get the unions to ease off the trigger and rid themselves of some of that crushing debt. Bankruptcy could do that for them.
Maneuvers like this are how companies get through hard times.
Another rule of thumb for surviving financial difficulties like this is: Do not try to "save" the economy all by yourself. Conservation frees up funding faster than new development can generate it, and that remains a true and useful fact whether it boosts the local economy or not. If you truly want GM and Ford around ten years from now, it should please you to see them looking after their own interests - and ignoring yours.
We are right to worry about an economic downturn in the States, and not just because of GM & Ford's troubles. The price of goods is beginning to rise to meet recent increases in fuel costs. The US Federal Reserve's efforts are reaching their limits - interest rates have been cut so much that our economy now has an inverted interest curve. That means that long term interest rates were cut so low that it now costs more, in total, to borrow money over short terms than it does for loan terms of years or decades. This chases away short term investors, and usually precedes an economic recession.
For those interested in damage control for space travel, try promoting diversity. Diversity in a business often insures that something makes enough money to stay solvent, even during a downturn.
GM and Ford (why aren't we equally hard on Chrysler?) need to pull up their socks, that's all.
Perhaps they already are.
Current US bankruptcy law (even with recent restrictive changes) still provides protection against debts too large to pay. GM and Ford are apparently in this situation. However, that law also often requires that large companies, in exchange for receiving bankruptcy protection, restructure themselves into corporations that will not immediately fall back into the same economic traps.
Deliberate reduction of capacity prior to declaring bankruptcy may both strengthen their case (by increasing the ratio of debt interest to yearly income) and ease implementation of the restructuring plan that they must submit to the court.
Bankruptcy also gives the companies license to renegotiate union contracts.
The lawyers and accounting departments at these firms were not dozing peacefully at the time this plan was proposed.
My guess is: GM and Ford are planning to claim bankruptcy protection within the next year, and are preparing themselves now. This plan for reducing production - without selling it off - is clearly a precursor to ease their court ordered restructuring.
Perhaps we should rethink the "Give them something to do" method of keeping the crew happy. Aside from the fact that busy work is seldom inspiring, recent research suggests that work of any type , whether it's a despised chore or a favorite hobby, will not promote group morale by itself. The interaction with the crew during work (and degree of engagement with the crew) is more important, as is the function and meaning ascribed to the work.
If the interpersonal interaction is good, cutting out paper dolls with scissors is just as effective as animal husbandry. If the work is seen as sufficiently interesting, stimulating and meaningful, mucking out stables is just as effective as surveying the surface of an unknown world. Continuously pleasurable activities are NOT necessarily good for group morale, and can destroy group cohesion if everyone's standard method for unwinding becomes a retreat to their cabin or workstation
Pseudofossils are naturally occuring formations of inorganic origin that mimic actual fossils. Here's an article on the topic, pre-MER, that talks about a mineral formation similar to the hematite blueberries found on Mars.
http://www.grisda.org/origins/23110.htm]Article on pseudofossils
Perhaps the blueberries are a type of pisolith...
I think it's great that cindy is even interested in space at all, but you dont get there by burning Heretics.
That depends. Do they have a high specific impulse?
Seriously, though: When separating wheat from chaff, it pays to remember that the goal is to get the grain, not to arbitrarily abuse the stalks. Whether you're threshing or getting threshed, it's not about how hard you hit the floor but about what gets knocked loose.
Actually, I like the idea of airborn exploration and settlement. It would be a great idea for Earth, where the resources and markets are available to support such a scheme (though the same claim would be questionable for Venus). In theory, it could be good for Mars, too. Unfortunately, on Mars the atmospheric conditions are such that material and structural constraints become major limitations in ways that terrestrial versions would never need to worry about. It's a good idea, but I literally don't know how we would make a suitably sized Martian airship fly.
In fact, it meets federal standards for a flame retardent material.
There is the kiss of death right there.
:laugh: Yeah, it's not saying much. But it's not saying "thermite" either...
In fact, why dont you coat the ball of a lightning rod with some and watch as electric discharge ignites it in a flash of light.
Why, when I can shave off a little metal beforehand and watch the lightning rod do the same? (Exploding wire experiments are great fun.) That's its own source of ignition, though, and the composition of the material is irrelevant as long as it will hold a charge. No thermite required.
The problem is the static, not the fabric.
Static electricity would be a serious problem, though - more so under near vacuum conditions. It might be a major design problem to come up with a Marsian airship that could handle incident sunlight without acting as a giant Leyden jar.
The cloth sealant paint did not cause the Hindenburg airship fire.
Materials research using the same sealant formula that was used on the Hindenburg's outer envelope has shown that the ingredients in the sealant correspond only to the catalyst and stabilizer used by the Space Shuttle SRB's - not the oxidizers. The Hindenburg's sealant contains no oxidizer and will not autoignite under normal operating conditions.
In fact, it meets federal standards for a flame retardent material.
The sealant did not start the infamous fire. Photographs reveal that the sections of sealed fabric separated from the gas cells by the derigible's superstructure survived well past the point where the hydrogen fueled fire front had burned past.
Thermite? Balderdash!
Please, let us know the outcome of your investigation.
Here's a discussion of estimating fill rates. Don't know about excavation & refilling, but knowing the time required to fill a crater once could at least give a minimum estimate.
http://www.marscraterconsortium.nau.edu … df]Martian Crater Degredation
I calculated that if the Vallis Marineris took 5 billion years to form, that it will take another eight billion years to completely divide the planetary Glacier into two polar glaciers using a process of photon excitation that the Iron can steal the oxygen from the hydrogen.
That might give you just enough time to devise an experimental test for your claim.
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=15832]Oppy arrives at Vostok
*Crater is nearly completely filled with sand.
Hmm...
I wonder if Vostok's age can be estimated based on the rate it filled. That would give us a better estimate for Endurance, too.
Yay! The next regeneration!
Not even Spielberg can kill the Doctor!
There's no way that it would work right out of the box at -90 degrees. No plastic stays so plyable at that temperature.
However, it wouldn't require much heat to make it work, either. And, unlike simple Saran film, it doesn't seem to lose its seal when frozen. An extra tool would be required - perhaps some sort of heating pad to press it down with instead of fingers - but it might be worth it for the use of such a versatile covering material.
Pheh!
Kill them all, regardless? Perhaps, instead of just spinning out how much that will save, someone ought to wonder about how much that will cost and try to find a balance between the two.
Cost efficiency is not always cost efficient.