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#301 Re: Human missions » New Space Race - Private vs. NASA » 2004-04-24 00:49:25

A lot of the X Prize companies, for example, are building vehicles that would allow a small or microsatellite to orbit or escape. This bring development range down a whole lot to just the cost of a flight plus the constrution of a small booster.

These companies will fight tooth and nail for any contracts that could give them revenue. After all most of their bussiness plans are about bootstrapping from sub-orbital tourisim all the way to mars.

8 or 9 digit donations/investments/contracts are not unimaginable but will require credibility to be built up with the really small projects and tourists.
I think it comes down to how canny the CEO's are and also upon a big slice of extended good fortune.

#302 Re: Human missions » International Space Plane Program - International Space Plane  ( ISP ) » 2004-04-23 20:06:10

Why don't the blessed Americans share the love? Or is Charity immoral?

But no... there has to be something in it for you.

#303 Re: Human missions » Extended ISS missions » 2004-04-23 20:02:38

Just make yer tether longer.

Eventually you get down to the same corilis force experienced standing on the surface of Earth. Which would be twice as bad on the surface of Mars.

Also, if you rotated at say, 1.5 or 2g, isn't reasonable to expect that your heart and muscles would get stronger and that your bones would uber-calcifiy.

Imagine what two months on a 2g space station would do for a sports team...

#304 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Should God be Exported to Mars? » 2004-04-23 05:54:37

I'd be interested in knowing, because it's got me confused.

Suprise.

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools,

Romans 1

Anyways, it is far more likely that the first to Mars will be religious fanatics. Why would athiests go? Eventually life will evolve there anyway right?

On tribal government: The Only government ordained by God in the Bible was tribal, and was periodically ruled by Judges who helped settle disputes and kept the borders intact.

In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes.

Judges 17

No athiests going round telling everybody what is right and wrong. No nobody telling anybody what is right and wrong. So if Christians hit Mars first, you should see total anarchy, except when somebody tries to set up a government. Then they all get together and overthrow it. If Catholics get there first, maybe a Theocracy, maybe everybody goes monastic. If Muslims hit Mars first... Sharia, Iran. If athiests hit it first, Tolitarian rule.

It prohibits taking weapons to Mars

Isn't this shoving something down someones throat? Or is it an import ban to protect the local weapons manufacturers?

The more we try to stop God going to Mars the harder the bible-thumpers are going to try to get there first.

Besides, it would be hard to do any science on Mars without God handily giving us physical laws, and underpinng useful rules of thumb like Occams Razor.

#305 Re: Human missions » The First to Mars - Who will it be? » 2004-04-22 17:39:36

See, if you knew the date, then you could rack up a huge deficit going to Mars and just not care.

:hm:

Uh oh...

Anyway -  Lookin at the poll it would seem that some think that America could pullit off on their own and Russia could not. But the majority think it will require Russia's help to get there?

Or is that all the sagans out there hoping for universal love and happiness?

#306 Re: Human missions » We have to jump to Mars from the Moon - Up for discussion, looking for feedback » 2004-04-22 04:15:33

I find its all a little bit gooey actually.

The fuel taken to decelerate all the way to the surface of the moon is < or > the fuel needed to accelerate extra provisions plus extra manouvering requirements plus plus plus.

The person who sets the conditions sets the outcome.

Zubrin argues:
surface of the earth to the surface of Mars is < Surface-Earth to surface-luna

Artemis Argues that:

Earth-orbit to moon-orbit to earth-orbit < Earth-orbit to Mars-orbit

It is comparing Apples to lemons. Who wants to orbit the moon?

We designed our Lunar Transfer Vehicle to fly from Earth orbit to lunar orbit and back again.

We're not landing; this mission is just to get a close-up look at the red planet with real human eyeballs.

The odd thing, the really bizzare, screwy thing, the really really really dumb thing is this:

Even when comparing orbit to orbit transfers Artemis admits that the delta V to mars is less!!! Theyjust argue that their toy "ltv" would be really really dumb to go in.

If we assume that our crewmembers ... don't mind being cooped up in a vehicle suited for a three-day trip to the moon ... then it really does take less fuel to get to Mars!

I just don't get the lure of the moon.

Personally I would volunteer for a direct one-way trip to mars.

#307 Re: Human missions » The First to Mars - Who will it be? » 2004-04-22 03:46:49

Yeah but:

2010 : Launch Space Station
2020: Build Moon Base
2030: Launch pre-emptive Nuclear Strike on USA

will not win you more free trade agreements. Worse yet it will cause Americans to empty their pockets to build said base first.[

#308 Re: Human missions » The First to Mars - Who will it be? » 2004-04-22 00:52:40

Russia was a rural nightmare when Sputnik was launched.

Besides that, a tiny amount of industrial espoinage combined with a brilliant engineer and the Chinese could solve it all overnight. There are precedents.

Besides, they have 20 years until they need a place to put all the He3 the have3 mined roll from the moon.

#309 Re: Human missions » Martian Economics - Imports, exports or independence? » 2004-04-21 22:11:16

Mars needs domes, people, nitrogen and hydrogen.

If it can get those as fast as possible it can get to pre-industrial pretty quick. There is a lot of stuff you can do with lumber and rubber. And steel, masses of steel.

But the key item is population. Big families. Which actually means young colonists.

You could also dump your life sentences there Australia style, which has a lot of economic upsides. Could the cost of keeping someone incacerated for 40 years be less than sending them to Mars one way?

An economy needs to grow from literal grass roots. If you import to much stuff that is not elemental, to much cultural baggage and luxuries then you won't get the beautiful geographic seperation that humanity needs to progress.

#310 Re: Human missions » The First to Mars - Who will it be? » 2004-04-21 21:44:57

What are the odds of a non-superpower doing it?

If a small government followed all the shortcuts and was happy with mega-risk could it be done?

If they built a rocket that could get 10 tonne one way, they could put a person or persons on mars for four years or so.

Terminal yes, but it would give everyone a run for their money though.

#311 Re: Human missions » Clunking to Mars - Are the needed parts already up there? » 2004-04-21 00:11:20

Gidday,

Imagine if Mir had been welded to the underside of the ISS. Next you grab as much aluminium framing and as many solar panels as you "reappropriate" to build a big bubble around the whole thing. Pressurise the bubble and you have a massive, redundant area for whatever neat stuff you can think up.

The hard part is getting the 400 tonne mess out of earth orbit...

Perhaps if you launched boosters. Anyway if you put some really dead solar panels (like actually dead) on the front a few layers deep, then you find yourself with a massive aerobrake. If you had secured an rtg or two then occupied or not, crash landing the thing next to a site of interest on mars would provide a handy dandy scrap yard for colonists/explorers full of all sorts of plumbing and electronics. This mostly lends itself to the sort of engineers who rejiggered their toasters to tune into sputnik but it could work.

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