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#276 Re: Not So Free Chat » I miss 9/10 - A post 9/11 world » 2004-08-13 06:36:16
Last night my son was going through the video cabinet and he came across the Disney movie Oliver. We hadn’t watched that in about 3 or so years so I popped in in the old VHS player.
The opening scene of this animated movie is a shot of New York City looking right at the World Trade center. And while this is going on, Huey Lewis is playing “Once upon a time in New York City.”
It emotions hit me hard, like someone throwing cold water on me. When I last saw that movie in the pre 9/1q1 days, I never even noticed the WTC, or thought much about New York City. How the world has changed. The movie is set in NYC in 1980’s. How innocent we seemed at that time.
Then I looked over at my son, who was not experiencing the emotions as I was. To him, it was just a movie. He still has his innocence, and I hope he can keep it a while longer. And I hope he can grow up in a terror free world. As for me, I lost my innocence on 9/11.
#277 Re: Human missions » Human Base on Venus - An Engineering Challenge » 2004-08-13 06:21:37
I hope that one day, Venus becomes fully terraformed. But I don’t see that happening for a long time.
So how could humans survive on Venus today? Is it the atmospheric pressure that is a problem? By itself, no. Is it the heat? Most certainly yes.
Getting around the heat problem.
The best way would be to block the sunlight, or cut the amount reaching the surface. There are ways we could do this with our current technology, like spreading dust in the upper atmosphere, but that would be temporary.
When air expands, it cools. What if we had a habitable dome inside of a larger dome. The air inside the larger dome is as close to a vacuum as we can come and keep the dome stable. Imagine a small amount of Venus air being sucked in to fill the volume. By the laws of Physics, it should cool, but will it be enough? This trick of air is cycled through, as it warms up, it is pumped out.
I don’t know if this scheme could work (I have not crunched the number) but on the surface, anyway, it sound plausible.
Another law of physics is that Energy is not destroyed, it just changes form. If we could just find a way to change the heat energy to electrical energy we could take Venus hot air and get electricity and cool air. (This would also work great for producing energy here in the Southern US.)
In a related topic, I am sure there is a way to harness Venus vast heat energy. Who know, future generations might not want to terraform Venus, as it could be a valuable energy source.
#278 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *7* - ...continuing... » 2004-08-11 06:12:42
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … .HTML]This Oppy picture with clouds is wonderful!
#279 Re: Intelligent Alien Life » Cydonian "Pyramids & Face" - ...(what is your opinion?) » 2004-07-29 06:05:14
Oscar, are you suggesting a cover up? If so, think about this. If there were alien artifacts on Mars, and NASA knew about them, they would tell the public. Why? Because they would get a blank check to go to Mars. It would be huge news.
And why would they release the pictures in the first place if they were going to cover it up.
And, targeting with the MOC is not easy. As a goodwill gesture to those who wanted to see the face, NASA took many pictures of that area. You can see this by going to
http://www.msss.com/moc_gallery/]MOC site and look at the Narrow Image Gallery.
#280 Re: Human missions » Moon vs Mars? - What did President Bush intend? » 2004-07-28 10:46:15
Moon vs Mars
Sounds like a good name for a reality TV show. 
Maybe we could set up bases on both and do a competition.
Each week views tune in and see which base is doing better. What the winner needs to do to win could be something like gaining self sufficiency, or something like that.
#281 Re: Unmanned probes » Cassini-Huygens - Cassini-Huygens Discussion » 2004-07-28 10:20:36
http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/gs2. … =image]New picture of Titan
![http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/gs2. … =image]New](http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/gs2.cgi?path=../multimedia/images/large-moons/images/PIA06089.jpg&type=image]New){kind=link}
And if you look close enough, you can see a blue sky up above the haze (This is a true color picture). Imagine floating in Titan's blue sky with the orange clouds (haze?) below you and Saturn on your horizion.
#282 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *7* - ...continuing... » 2004-07-27 06:17:33
It wasn't that long ago we were http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … .HTML]here looking at those hills so far away.
#283 Re: Unmanned probes » Cassini-Huygens - Cassini-Huygens Discussion » 2004-07-26 09:41:08
Good picture of http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/gs2. … mage]Mimas, the Death Star
![http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/gs2. … mage]Mimas](http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/gs2.cgi?path=../multimedia/images/large-moons/images/PIA05423.jpg&type=image]Mimas){kind=link}
#284 Re: Intelligent Alien Life » Cydonian "Pyramids & Face" - ...(what is your opinion?) » 2004-07-21 11:30:21
http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/ext … c.gif]This picture is half the size of the one linked to above.
![http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/ext … c.gif]This](http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/extended_may2001/face/face_E03-00824_proc_50perc.gif]This){kind=link}
As you can see, the 'face' is a hill. There is some interesting geology here.
Had this picture been taken before the Viking one (Of much lower resolution) then we would not be having this discussion and no one would know who Hoagland is.
#285 Re: Intelligent Alien Life » Cydonian "Pyramids & Face" - ...(what is your opinion?) » 2004-07-21 11:26:01
Oscar, I am also an avid photographer and I know a thing or two about the limits of a picture. Hoagland sees stuff at the limits of an images resolution. He tries to add data beyond the pixel limit. When we do get pictures with better resolution (More pixels) his anomalies always go away, and then he looks towards the new pixel limit for anomalies.
I wish you were right. I would love for there to be artificial structures on Mars. I read Monument to Mars, cover to cover. I wanted to believe and I was hoping Hoagland was right. But he wasn’t. If there are artificial structures on Mars, we have not found them. http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/ext … c.gif]This is a large hill.
![http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/ext … c.gif]This](http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/extended_may2001/face/face_E03-00824_proc.gif]This){kind=link}
People are programmed to see faces. We see them everywhere, in landforms, could, wood grain, you name it.
Mars is a very interesting planet. We don’t need to invent stuff to make it interesting.
#286 Re: Intelligent Alien Life » Cydonian "Pyramids & Face" - ...(what is your opinion?) » 2004-07-21 06:40:04
Hoagland made the ‘Face’ his life work. He invested years of his life trying to show us there was a face on Mars built by intelligent life. I wanted him to be right, but he wasn’t. Plus he has made a good living off of it. As a person who has studied Geology for over 20 years, I can tell you the ‘Face’ is just a natural feature.
The problem with scientists who have made something their life work and it proves to be wrong, is that they stick by it and refuse to give it up. I guess they have invested so much of their time, it is easier to try and defend their work, than to throw it out and start over.
Here is the Scientific Method;
1. Observation and description of a phenomenon or group of phenomena.
2. Formulation of an hypothesis to explain the phenomena. In physics, the hypothesis often takes the form of a causal mechanism or a mathematical relation.
3. Use of the hypothesis to predict the existence of other phenomena, or to predict quantitatively the results of new observations.
4. Performance of experimental tests of the predictions by several independent experimenters and properly performed experiments.
If the experiments bear out the hypothesis it may come to be regarded as a theory or law of nature (more on the concepts of hypothesis, model, theory and law below). If the experiments do not bear out the hypothesis, it must be rejected or modified.
As for where the name of Cydonia comes from, In http://www.exploringmars.com/history/1800.html]1877 Giovanni Schiaparelli (1835 - 1910) develops a nomenclature for mapping the features of Mars. The names are drawn from mythology, history, and various terms for hell.
The name Cydonia come from a city of Greece, now called KhAnia
As for the Bad Astronomy site, Phil Plait is a real respectable scientist.
#287 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *7* - ...continuing... » 2004-07-19 07:37:32
It might just be a trick of light.
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … ML]Looking at this picture, from Sol171, Oppy looks like it is up near the rim again. That other picture was from a day or two before.
I don't know where Oppy is.
#288 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *7* - ...continuing... » 2004-07-19 07:03:15
It looks like that rock has an over hang. It looks almost like an upside down L.
#289 Re: Unmanned probes » Spirit & Opportunity *7* - ...continuing... » 2004-07-19 07:00:01
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … .JPG]Check out the rock at the upper right hand corner.
![http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … .JPG]Check](http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/170/1P143275462EFF3243P2398L7M1.JPG]Check){kind=link}
Opportunity looks as thou it is near the bottum of the crater. I hope it goes and checks out that rock.
#290 Re: Civilization and Culture » The Night Life On Mars » 2004-07-16 09:14:31
As a kid growing up in the 1970's, Starbuck was my hero
#291 Re: Civilization and Culture » The Night Life On Mars » 2004-07-16 08:59:57
No Cigars? Felgercarb!
What am I going to smoke while winning gold cubits playing pyramid.
Felgercarb!
#292 Re: Civilization and Culture » The Night Life On Mars » 2004-07-16 08:27:11
That’s me. Whisky on the rocks (Wild Turkey if possible) and maybe a good cigar (I have to go set outside on the porch to smoke it- that would be kind of hard on Mars. Will Mars be a no smoking planet?)
#293 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » How would you terraform mars? » 2004-07-16 08:12:05
Building huge empty tankers shouldn’t be too much of a challenge. They will just be mainly shells. The tricky part about mining atmospheres of Venus, Saturn, or any other world is getting the gasses into orbit and separating them.
Could it be as simple as lowering very strong tubes from orbit and sucking out the atmosphere? Then run it through a processor separating the elements?
In the case of Venus, the Nitrogen could be separated from the CO2. The CO2 could be processed into Oxygen and Carbon. The Carbon could be used to build the tankers (Carbon nano-tube fibers?) The Oxygen could be used for fuel, to make water (Hydrogen from Saturn) and/or breathable air.
Let robots do most of the work using space based resources and the cost to the Earth should be minimal.
#294 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Solar System Data » 2004-07-16 06:40:56
This is a list, in order of size, of most of the larger worlds in our Solar System. Only a few Asteroids, Comets, and Centauri Objects are listed as examples. Thousands more exist but are too numerous to list here. No Kuiper Comet Belt objects or Oort Comet Cloud objects listed for the same reason.
As you see the new pictures of Saturn's Moons, you might want to take a look at this list to get an idea of their size compared to other worlds in our Solar System
Surface Major
Diameter Gravity Atmospheric
Object (Km) (Earth=1) Compositions
Sun 1,391,400 27.9000 H2, He
Jupiter 142,800 2.6431 H2, He & NH4
Saturn 120,540 1.1013 H2, He & NH4
Uranus 51,118 0.8799 H2, He & CH4
Neptune 49,528 1.1408 H2, He & CH4
Earth 12,756 1.0000 N2, O2 & H2O
Venus 12,104 0.9125 CO2, N2 & H2SO4
Mars 6,787 0.3821 CO2, N2 & AR
Ganymede (Jupiter) 5,262 0.1542 Very Thin O3 & O2
Titan (Saturn) 5,150 0.1409 N2, CH4 & H2
Mercury 4,878 0.3924 Very Thin He & H2
Callisto (Jupiter) 4,800 0.1206 None
Io (Jupiter) 3,630 0.1802 Thin SO2, S & Na
Moon (Earth) 3,467 0.1611 None
Europa (Jupiter) 3,130 0.1435 Very Thin O2
Triton (Neptune) 2,700 0.0607 Thin N2 & CH4
Pluto 2,300 0.0534 Thin N2 & CH4
Titania (Uranus) 1,580 0.0200 None
Rhea (Saturn) 1,530 0.0281 None
Oberon (Uranus) 1,520 0.0106 None
Iapetus (Saturn) 1,440 0.0225 None
Charon (Pluto) 1,190 0.0210 None
Umbriel (Uranus) 1,170 0.0083 None
Ariel (Uranus) 1,160 0.0127 None
Dione (Saturn) 1,120 0.0222 None
Tethys (Saturn) 1,050 0.0153 None
Ceres 1 (Asteroid) 914 0.0441 None
Pallas 2 (Asteroid) 522 0.0198 None
Vesta 4 (Asteroid) 500 0.0201 None
Enceladus (Saturn) 500 0.0079 None
Miranda (Uranus) 470 0.0042 None
Hygia 10 (Asteroid) 443 0.0167 None
Proteus (Neptune) 400 0.0120 None
Mimas (Saturn) 390 0.0070 None
Hyperion (Saturn) 350 x 200 0.0063 None
Nereid (Neptune) 340 0.0038 None
Davida 511 (Asteroid) 336 0.0118 None
Interamnia (Asteroid) 334 0.0120 None
Hektor 642 (Trojan Ast.) 300 x 150 0.0094 None
Europa (Asteroid) 291 0.0091 None
Eunomia 15 (Asteroid) 272 0.0086 None
Sylvia (Asteroid) 272 0.0088 None
Amalthea (Jupiter) 270 x 150 0.0089 None
Laetitia 39 (Asteroid) 266 0.0072 None
Chiron 2060 (Centaur) 250 0.0052 Coma H2O
1989 FC (Apollo Asteroid) 250 0.0074 None
Psyche 16 (Asteroid) 250 0.0072 None
Euphrasyne (Asteroid) 248 0.0070 None
Cybele (Asteroid) 246 0.0068 None
Juno 3 (Asteroid) 244 0.0069 None
Bamberga (Asteroid) 242 0.0067 None
Camilla 118 (Asteroid) 237 0.0061 None
Herculina 532 (Asteroid) 231 0.0065 None
Patientia (Asteroid) 230 0.0063 None
1992 QB1 (Centaur) 225 0.0013 None
Cordelia (Uranus) 220 0.0009 None
Janus (Saturn) 220 x 160 0.0049 None
Eugenia (Asteroid) 214 0.0065 None
Thisbe 210 (Asteroid) 210 0.0065 None
Iris 7 (Asteroid) 209 0.0062 None
Daphne 41 (Asteroid) 201 0.0061 None
Hebe 6 (Asteroid) 201 0.0059 None
Amphitrite 29 (Asteroid) 195 0.0057 None
Larissa (Neptune) 190 0.0052 None
Despoina (Neptune) 180 0.0051 None
Himalia (Jupiter) 180 0.0043 None
Metis 9 (Asteroid) 179 0.0060 None
Kalliope 22 (Asteroid) 177 0.0057 None
Pholus 5145 (Centaur) 175 0.0028 None
Irene 14 (Asteroid) 158 0.0052 None
Puck (Uranus) 150 0.0039 None
Galatea (Neptune) 150 0.0040 None
Agamemnon 911 (Trojan Ast.)148 0.0053 None
Metis 9 (Asteroid) 145 0.0051 None
Epimetheus (Saturn) 140 x 100 0.0039 None
Prometheus (Saturn) 140 x 80 0.0058 None
Zelinda 654 (Asteroid) 121 0.0056 None
Portia (Uranus) 110 0.0033 None
Thalia 23 (Asteroid) 110 0.0051 None
Pandora (Saturn) 110 x 70 0.0047 None
Thebe (Jupiter) 100 0.0032 None
Nausikaa 192 (Asteroid) 94 0.0049 None
Elara (Jupiter) 80 0.0024 None
Juliet (Uranus) 80 0.0019 None
Thalassa (Neptune) 80 0.0017 None
Pasiphae (Jupiter) 70 0.0009 None
Cressida (Uranus) 70 0.0017 None
Belinda (Uranus) 70 0.0020 None
Mathilde 253 (Asteroid) 61 0.0036 None
Desdemana (Uranus) 60 0.0019 None
Rosalind (Uranus) 60 0.0019 None
Naiad (Neptune) 50 0.0010 None
Carme (Jupiter) 45 0.0008 None
Hale-Bopp (Comet) 42 0.0008 Coma H20
Metis (Jupiter) 40 0.0020 None
Lysithea (Jupiter) 40 0.0012 None
Sinope (Jupiter) 40 0.0008 None
Bianca (Uranus) 40 0.0011 None
P/Schwassamn-Wachmann 1 (Comet) 40 0.0008 Coma H2O
Atlas (Saturn) 40 x 30 0.0008 None
Helene (Saturn) 36 x 30 0.0036 None
Amor 1221(Amor Asteroid) 33 0.0035 None
Ananke (Jupiter) 30 0.0005 None
Cordelia (Uranus) 30 0.0009 None
Ophelia (Uranus) 30 0.0009 None
Ganymed (Amor Asteroid) 30 x 25 0.0025 None
Calypso (Saturn) 30 x 20 0.0004 None
Eros 443 (Amor Ast.) 30 x 19 x7 0.0014 None
Phobos (Mars) 27 x 19 0.0009 None
Telesto (Saturn) 25 0.0003 None
Adrastea (Jupiter) 24 x 16 0.0013 None
Ida 243 (Asteroid) 20 x 12 0.0009 None
Gaspra 951 (Asteroid) 20 x 12 0.0006 None
Leda (Jupiter) 16 0.0003 None
Deimos (Mars) 15 x 11 0.0004 None
Halley's Comet 15 x 10 x7 0.0002 Coma H2O
Pan (Saturn) 10 0.0006 None
McCartney 4148 (Asteroid) 10 0.0004 None
Lennon 4147 (Asteroid) 9.5 0.0003 None
Harrison 4149 (Asteroid) 9 0.0003 None
Star 4150 (Asteroid) 8 0.0004 None
Ivar 1627 (Apollo Asteroid) 8 0.0005 None
S21 (Saturn) 7 0.0001 None
S20 (Saturn) 6 0.0001 None
Toutatis 4179 (Apollo Ast.) 6.5 x 4 0.0001 None
S22 (Saturn) 6 0.0001 None
S19 (Saturn) 5.5 0.0001 None
Honda-Mrkos-Pajdusokova (Comet) 4.5 <0.0001 Coma H2O
Geographos (Apollo Ast.) 4 x 1.5 <0.0001 None
Castalia 4769 (Apollo Ast.) 1.7 x 1 <0.0001 None
Apollo 1862 (Apollo Asteroid) 1.5 <0.0001 None
Dactyl (Asteroid Moon) 1.5 <0.0001 None
1991 BA (Apollo Asteroid) 0.009 <0.0001 None
#295 Re: Water on Mars » How Mars lost its atmosphere? - Solarstorms movies » 2004-07-16 06:18:26
It is also possible that much of Mars’ CO2 was absorbed by Mars Northern Ocean and Hellas sea and turned into Limestone. With out plate tectonics, the CO2 would not be recycled. This theory should be easy enough to prove. Just go to those locations and look for limestone in the bedrock.
#296 Re: Intelligent Alien Life » Aliens Shmaliens - ...why not ask THE question?? » 2004-07-16 06:04:32
Call me old fashion, but I think I will stick with one human female - my wife.
But if I wasn't married, TPol]http://www.trek5.com/images/wallpaper/tpol03/tpol03.jpg]T'Pol could tempt me to convert to a Vulcan
![TPol]http://www.trek5.com/images/wallpaper/tpol03/tpol03.jpg]T'Pol](http://www.trek5.com/images/wallpaper/tpol03/tpol03.jpg){kind=link}
#297 Re: Civilization and Culture » The Night Life On Mars » 2004-07-15 12:18:31
You humans don’t know how to party. I am going to go hang out with the true native Martians. They have some vintage whisky from the ancient Hellas Distillery, and they know how to rock and roll.
The only problem is that the Native Martians look like rocks, so they are hard to find.
#298 Re: Unmanned probes » Interesting MOC pictures - Place to post interesting MOC pictures » 2004-07-14 09:46:50
We think of Mars as being an alien world, but it looks very Arizona-like.
Imagine a MER type robot on http://www.solarviews.com/eng/triton.htm]Triton. I think we would see a truly alien landscape.
Or how about a MER on IO?
#299 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » LRO » 2004-07-14 09:36:51
Your post made me think of a future profession. The Lunar Remote Construction Worker. (I wonder if there is a good science fiction story there. Hmmmm. A virtual lunar construction worker discovers something interesting while she is digging on the Moon and…)
One day, I hope anyway, there will be thousands of remote controlled lunar robots. Many will probably be construction robots. Imagine having a job controlling one of those from Earth.
That would be a cool job. Go get in you Moon backhoe virtual machine here on Earth and control a real lunar backhoe, and work together with your fellow lunar construction workers to build Moon bases or whatever.
#300 Re: Unmanned probes » Interesting MOC pictures - Place to post interesting MOC pictures » 2004-07-14 09:26:36
That reminds me of the http://www.astro.uwo.ca/~jlandstr/plane … Cantaloupe Terrain on Triton
I wouldn't be surprised if they formed in a simular way.