New Mars Forums

Yes, there’s the rub, Clark. 

Space exploration in general contributes too much to let it lapse, but NASA’s manned space exploration program has accomplished nothing in the last decade.  NASA has held up the space shuttle/space station system as it’s only manned space exploration for so long that people have begun to equate the two.  Space shuttle = manned space exploration; and space shuttle = failed program; therefore, manned space exploration = failed program.  Thanks to NASA’s pioneering efforts, no true defense of manned space exploration can begin without contradicting that.  That’s a major damper on any defense, and Tang alone can’t fix that.  The best economic model for space exploration at this point is research & development, and it’s commonly known that only a fraction of R&D programs ever actually succeed.  Tang succeeded, “manned space exploration” clearly hasn’t.  That’s the end of the story if you believe shuttle = manned space.  If someone believes that, then comparing the two without first making damn sure that you’ve distanced yourself from the space shuttle is like comparing apples and orange drink.

Dook, I think that “New Orleans analogs” will probably be abundant on Mars.  Oh, Mars has no combination of oceans and high winds to speak of, but there are other hazards and the best lure on the planet to go park a colony on top of them – water. I see it again and again in discussions about Mars:  “Follow the water.” Unfortunately, all of the truly unstable terrain we’re familiar with on Mars is potentially associated with water or water weathered formations.  Valles Marineris may have formed in a catastropic flood.  Water in the polar caps is associated with deposits of potentially unstable carbon dioxide ice that could sublime away and subside or even erupt over time.  Water ice deposits in craters can subside and are located under huge cliffs of fractured rock.  Salt crusts cover powdery dust deposits that can trap vehicles and possibly even astronauts.  Getting water out of the deposits where it has been confirmed can be dangerous indeed.

Following the water is the only economically viable way to settle Mars.  It could also get us killed.

The price of reconstruction after Katrina is going to be at least four times the NASA yearly budget, and probably more than eight times that much.  NASA could easily take a hit as Congress searches desperately for budget cuts in order to pay for this.  NASA will also need to make allowances to rebuild its own damaged facilities.

This is going to cause enough trouble with people battening down to defend the shuttle army and their pet programs.  But there is another problem looming on the space advocacy horizon.  It doesn't matter that rebuilding damaged aerospace facilities in Louisiana and Mississippi is going to aid the local economies.  We need to brace ourselves for a major resurgence of the "that money would be better spent here on Earth" lobby. 

IMHO, after nearly fifty years of space travel, it'll be a waste of our time to stoop to responding with a defense of space exploration in general, as though the very principle itself were somehow suspect.  After all this time, if someone really believes that space exploration contributes nothing to their lives or to the national economy, then tell them to give it back.  It's not possible to go back in time and undo their past use of the various space spinoff technologies, but it's not unethical to suggest someone stop using space-related technologies in the future.  People can move inland to places where they don't need weather satellites to track hurricanes.  They can close down their business' websites and stop watching non-local television broadcasts.  They can stop making long distance phone calls and return all their e-mails.  They can throw away their GPS.  The US military is all-volunteer these days, so they can resign, desert their units and scamper home from battlefields and other locations where satellite reconnaisance is required.  Advice on how to do it is available from the monasteries and any number of other ascetics.

Tell them to give it back.  Vote with their feet - there are people to help them.

I was amused by the "Chose an apartment outside the evacuation zones" because it completely eliminates about 33% of my home state. 

What you are suggesting is fine for one little house out in the woods, but could never work for an entire town.

To understand the trouble with expanding out into all those elevated areas with no roads, you have to understand that very few areas in New Orleans started out below sea level.  The French Quarter is an accident of geology.  Almost everything else that didn't flood was built on land that was settled less than 100 years ago.

New Orleans used to be elevated areas just like what you are talking about.  Swamps were drained to expand New Orleans, but nobody drained a swamp to make the city in the first place.  Much of the affected areas sank - they were not settled that way.  Moving to new elevated areas and further disrupting the surrounding marshland with new (inevitable) levees will just make the hole bigger.[/i]

Those two statements are so contradictory, it's funny!

You do realize that your advice sums up to "Don't live anywhere in Louisiana south of I-10!" don't you?  (Don't get me wrong - that's darn good advice!)

Oh, BTW, about the storm relief debit card idea, IMHO, it's a good idea.  FEMA's screwed it up royally, though.  After a nationwide announcement, they come back two days later to tell us that only a select few evacuees at the Astrodome will receive debit cards.  For the rest, the check's in the mail.   

The rest of their information distribution system seems karked up, too.  Once is an accident, twice is a coincidence, three times is a conspiracy.  FEMA appears incapable of keeping their story straight, and people are getting jerked around because of it.  I'm still trying to withhold blame for the entire debacle until we actually have time to find out what went on.  However, as someone who's job it is to help evacuees get accurate information, any reliance on FEMA for it is a major hindrance at this point.  If FEMA issues a statement that the sky is blue when the clouds are clear, you'd better get it from a second source. 

I have given a name to my pain, and that name is "FEMA".   

(There.  My liberal soul is assuaged.      )

No, thank you.  I have more than enough lazy good-for-nothing politico idiots to be mad at right now.  I don't need another.  Mrs. Bush is doing the right thing, even if she isn't saying it.  A little preventative duct tape over her mouth, and she'll be just fine. 

I can't say anything as charitable for Michael Moore at this time.

I no longer care where the money comes from, as long as it comes.

The Clinton administration did do a few things about Louisiana's levee problem, just not enough.  NOBODY DID ENOUGH, but believe it or not, Clinton did more than most.  So did Bush.  When just how much they did comes to light, you will see how truly pathetic that statement is.

And yes, in the end, Louisiana's levee problems were Louisiana's responsibility, no matter where the money was coming from.  We didn't do enough, either.

The current situation is a logistical nightmare.  Even now, all of the support being promised - even announced - isn't on the scene in Louisiana.  Part of that is incompetence, and part is just the nature of organizing an operation this big when all you have is one or two roundabout land routes.  Nobody is being teleported in or out of the New Orleans area.  Star Trek couldn't get rescue teams in fast enough. 

I'm just grateful we're finally getting organized in spite of the screwups.

Yes, but not by too large a factor.  We'd have been able to spread it over decades instead of trying to do it all in six months if the US Congress had deigned to get up off of its collective rump, though. 

And we wouldn't be losing nearly the same amount in lost business at the same time.

This from a news story at wwl.com:

Ultimately not a bad idea, Trebuchet.  It just took the banking system and FEMA a few days to catch up.   8)

IMHO, those numbers are probably exaggerated, but by no more than a factor of two.  I haven't talked to anyone who came out by boat who says they didn't see someone dead.

10000 dead is no better than 20000, and 500000 homeless is no better than 1500000.  No matter what numbers you're reading right now, it's already horrible and only getting worse.   :cry:

PS - I was sorry to hear about El Paso.  Texas Red Cross is ultimately taking the bulk of the evacuees, which means it will probably get the bulk of the relocatees, too.

Too true.  For example, I cited numbers of 7000 and 6500 troops earlier, but the fact is, that's just how many are expected to ultimately mobilize.  Those numbers were based on promises, not boots on the ground.  The area affected in Louisiana went at least two days with less than 1000 troops scattered from the tip of the Mississippi river delta north to the Mississippi state border.

As for the politics, I'm getting tired of the blame game.  I don't care who resigns at this point, as long as they send some more helicopters to St Bernard parish before they leave.  I would consider voing for Mary Landrieu if she ran for president, though.   

I can't help you much there.  The Red Cross is giving some of it back.     Evacuees are headed for most major southern US cities, and some groups are going as far away as California.  If you're worried about what they're actually doing with your money, try looking around to see if there's a shelter or aid group in your area. 

Something close will be easier to keep tabs on.   :?

*sigh*  Calls to occupy New Orleans.   With in excess of 7000 troops, 1500 armed police (not just NOPD, but volunteers from every town for two hundred miles in any direction), armed APC's, "shoot to kill" orders, and the biggest citizen rescue effort since Dunkirk, exactly what do people think is going on over there?  Calls to occupy New Orleans? 

TOO F***ING LATE!  WE'RE ALREADY THERE!  The campaign just isn't proceeding as gloriously as some armchair generals might desire.

The next 10000 troops will be arriving over the weekend.  They will be coming almost exclusively from out of state, and - in spite of the fact that it took the rest of the country four whole days to realize that Louisiana's National Guard was completely overwhelmed - I for one am glad for the help.  Hopefully, they will bring food, water, and medical supplies. 

However, it is not logistically possible for a force that small to bring enough boats and trucks all by themselves to accomplish the necessary total evacuation in the time required and still retain the troop densities required for martial law.  That's entirely in the hands of civilian relief agencies. 

Meanwhile, back on the "homefront", every major city in Louisiana is currently attempting to absorb an overnight 10% increase in its population.  Baton Rouge has effectively doubled in size.  Food and supplies for these folks is becoming difficult to obtain as well - most normal supply routes in the southeast corner of the state pass(ed) through New Orleans.  There is some doubt as to whether Baton Rouge and Monroe can hold out for the next three months.

The major supply lines were cut and the reinforcements were four days late.  What else could one expect except what is happening?

More Katrina fun:  My bank lost major network hubs in both New Orleans and Baton Rouge.  My employer also uses the same bank.  The local hub is able to continue operating, but due to the intricacies of their deposit system there may be no payday tomorrow.  At least I can still make withdrawals.   :? 

There are no working ATM's on the east side of the state, though.