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#252 Re: Terraformation » Adding mass to Mars - An idea to stop loosing atmosphere » 2007-07-06 06:41:18

Venus is another case and example.
And it do not have any magnetic field.

But it has a 90 bar atmosphere!  And even so, most of the lighter elements have been lost (hydrogen, helium, nitrogen, oxygen).  Now only CO2 is left. 

Why didn't the ionosphere stop the lighter gas molecules being lost?

#253 Re: Terraformation » Adding mass to Mars - An idea to stop loosing atmosphere » 2007-07-06 06:36:39

Not enough thick.
0.07 bar is thin and insufficient.

Current theory says that Mars used to have 2-3 bars of atmosphere.  The ionosphere didn't stop it being lost ...

Mars’ volatile and climate history, Nature, July 2001
http://ltpwww.gsfc.nasa.gov/tharsis/jak … nsight.pdf

#254 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » What Type Of Government Should Mars Have?? - Mars Government » 2007-07-06 06:21:02

there could be a new type of mineral that we don't have here on Earth

There is zero chance of this.  It is possible that particular mineral structures will be more/less abundant, but that isn't going to revolutionize our tech.  Mars' biggest advantage is that it is easier to leave than Earth.

Never claim "zero chance".

I stand corrected.  The chance is merely vanishingly small.

#255 Re: Terraformation » Terraforming the Moon - Your opinion, please » 2007-07-06 06:13:50

Import them from Ceres.

Ceres could be a great source of water with its 100 km thick blanket of ice.

#256 Re: Terraformation » Terraforming the Moon - Your opinion, please » 2007-07-06 05:58:04

At least 0.1 bar atmosphere will protect itself with ionosphere.

Do you have any evidence for this statement?  I'm quite interested in this area, so if you've seen any calculations, I'd appreciate a reference to them.

1.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terraformi … _radiation

"However, recent scientific evidence suggest that just a thick enough atmosphere like Earth's is enough to create a shielding effect in the absence of a magnetosphere. In the past, Earth regularly had periods where the magnetosphere changed direction and collapsed for some time. Some scientists believe that in the ionosphere, a magnetic shielding was created almost instantly after the magnetosphere collapsed.[3], a principle that applies to Venus as well and would also be the case in every other planet or moon with a large enough atmosphere."

So I believe the ionosphere can provide the surface with radiation shielding even in the absence of a magnetic field, but I don't believe that the ionosphere can prevent itself being blown away by the solar wind in this situation.

the thin atmosphere of young Moon was retained for a few byr

Again, what makes you think this is true?

2.Celestia ED simulation.

Is Celestia ED something different from Celestia?  If not, then I don't believe that it models atmospheric evolution.

I believe the Moon had at atmosphere that was constantly replenished by volcanic activity for billions of years, but once the volcanic activity stopped, the atmosphere blew away in the solar wind (there are still traces left).

#257 Re: Terraformation » Terraforming the Earth’s great Deserts - Turning the Sahara into a rainforest. » 2007-07-06 05:47:10

Population control and terraforming of other planets and moons.

Terraforming won't solve Earth's population issues.  It is our duty to provide the best life possible for those who are on Earth now.

#258 Re: Terraformation » Adding mass to Mars - An idea to stop loosing atmosphere » 2007-07-06 05:43:27

It is sufficient to hold atmosphere  and ionosphere will protect the atmosphere if it is sufficiently thick.
I suppose we should not worry.

But Mars is a counterexample to your theory.  It did have a thick atmosphere and its ionosphere did not protect it.

The ionosphere isn't something magic.  It is just gas atoms with electrons stripped away.  Without the magnetic field, they just blow away like normal gas atoms.  With the magnetic field, they are directed along the field lines and kept close to the planet. 

It is the magnetic field that is important.  If you have an atmosphere with a magnetic field, the solar wind will soon create an ionosphere.  But not vice versa.

#259 Re: Terraformation » Terraforming the Moon - Your opinion, please » 2007-07-05 23:46:30

Have fun figuring out how to import water, nitrogen, oxygen, carbon, phosphorus, sulfur, and lots of other fun ingredients to this dead rock then.

Thanks, I will.

I'll stick with Mars and Venus for now, which have at least some of those in appreciable quantities to make it seem economically worthwhile.

I agree that greater benefit (e.g., shirtsleeve living environment) can be obtained with partial terraforming at Mars more quickly and less expensively than at Luna, but there is a big difference between more expensive and not possible, particularly when you are talking about economic environments decades from now. 

Earth's Moon has no distinguishing characteristic that gives it an advantage over devoting resources to terraforming these other worlds.

Lower gravity -> larger launch payload for same fuel + easier reentry

Incoming solar energy twice that of Mars (ignoring atmospheric reductions!)

High value-add tech from Earth at 1/10th the cost.  What happens when you run out of spares for your Martian auto-fab?  Or if the latest model auto-fab would let you make engines that double your asteroid mining efficiency, but Martian facilities can't justify the transport cost for at least another 10 years - meanwhile the Luna guys are eating your lunch.

Possibility of an export (He3 for fusion) to pay for terraforming. 

it happens to be a good place to set up telescopes and communications systems to talk to all of the other worlds being colonized without atmospheric interference.

The Lagrange points (or even GEO) are much better for this - Luna has dust and vibration problems.

#260 Re: Terraformation » Terraforming the Moon - Your opinion, please » 2007-07-05 22:10:48

At least 0.1 bar atmosphere will protect itself with ionosphere.

Do you have any evidence for this statement?  I'm quite interested in this area, so if you've seen any calculations, I'd appreciate a reference to them.

the thin atmosphere of young Moon was retained for a few byr

Again, what makes you think this is true?

terraforming the Moon would not be feasible. First the Moon has a very inactive central core, which is part of the process for a liveable atmosphere to be made artificially or naturally.

How does an "inactive central core" prevent the maintenance of a "liveable atmosphere" ?

I would say terraforming the Moon is not a good idea. Never mind whether it can be done, it shouldn't be done. This is an airless world very close to the Earth, a highly developed settled planet with a giant thriving economy and a diverse biosphere. The Moon is needed for industrial processes that require vacuum and partial gravity, as well as interferometry telescopes that can image Earth size planets around other stars.

But Earth is deep within a gravity well, and the vacuum and viewing conditions are better at L5.  A terraformed moon would make a great base for exploiting the rest of the solar system.

#261 Re: Terraformation » Iceteroids: What happens when they get to Mars? » 2007-07-05 19:53:35

"Impacting a comet onto the surface of the planet might cause destruction to the point of being counter-productive.

Yes, it might, however, presumably we can control the impact energy (i.e., slow the thing down if necessary).

Aerobraking, if an option, would allow a comet's frozen mass to outgas and become part of the atmosphere through which it would travel."

Yes, if an option, however it is very unlikely that you'd be able to ablate a 10 billion ton comet in a single pass, that is, the comet would have to be put in a highly elliptical orbit, with one end of the orbit passing through the atmosphere - but any orbit, highly elliptical or not, may be difficult because you have to slow this huge mass from ~30-40 km/sec to < 5 km/sec.  We may not have the technology to achieve this for a long time - we certainly don't today.

AFAIK the comet contains a lot of water and because H2O is a greenhouse gas, the planet will heat up.

H2O is an excellent greenhouse gas, but until temperatures average above zero degrees Celsius, it will (unfortunately) quickly freeze out to the poles.  That's why gases like CO2, ammonia & PFCs are so important initially.  Once we're in the goldilocks zone, the water will keep the planet there, but we have to get there first.

#262 Re: Terraformation » Terraforming the Earth’s great Deserts - Turning the Sahara into a rainforest. » 2007-07-05 19:40:54

Because some animals are depended on that habitat - desert rodents, scorpions, cactus, vultures and they will become extinct.

I'm sure a balance can be struck.

we have no right to destroy natural ecosystems.

Unconsidered destruction is foolish, however the human population has grown so large that we can no longer live without environment modification.

#263 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » What Type Of Government Should Mars Have?? - Mars Government » 2007-07-05 19:30:43

there could be a new type of mineral that we don't have here on Earth

There is zero chance of this.  It is possible that particular mineral structures will be more/less abundant, but that isn't going to revolutionize our tech.  Mars' biggest advantage is that it is easier to leave than Earth.

#264 Re: Terraformation » Iceteroids: What happens when they get to Mars? » 2007-07-05 02:45:09

One big ship or just a few from mars to collect all the carbon soot, then back to the pole for processing.
Cheaper on fuel this way.

Or ... build a linear accelerator on Phobos, compact the carbon into bullet shapes and then shoot them at the ice deposits. 

Carbon + ice + heat from impact -> CO2 + methane + water vapor

I thought you might be able to burn Phobos carbon like coal for energy, but it would take more energy to split out the oxygen from the water than you'd get from burning the carbon.  You could use it to lower the energy cost of CO2 production though.

What an interesting idea, nickname.  We need a better characterization of the crust of Phobos to plan in more detail.

#265 Re: Terraformation » Iceteroids: What happens when they get to Mars? » 2007-07-04 18:02:52

If you melded a few iceteroids into Phobos and/or Deimos, what effect would this additional mass have on the moons? Would it decay their orbits or raise their orbits? It might depend on the ballistics of the "meld".

Because the mass of the moon would still be small compared to Mars, I think it more depends on how you changed the moon's velocity.  The most likely outcome is to make the orbit slightly elliptical.

I wonder if you could migrate the orbits towards each other, by adding inertia to the one and subtracting it from the other, until the two moons collided in orbit.....

This might be too difficult, even in principle, but I think there is enough energy if you can organize at least hundreds, probably thousands of impacts.

#266 Re: Life support systems » Communication on Mars » 2007-07-04 17:29:00

Hi Alien baby, welcome to New Mars.

I vote for the WiFi idea - or whatever packet-switched high-bandwidth self-organizing wireless data network is in vogue at the time.

Communication towers will be easier to build on Mars because of the lower gravity.  You can also use tethered balloons as ad hoc communication towers (during exploration).

#267 Re: Unmanned probes » Cavern exploration » 2007-07-04 17:25:01

Frederick goes further than some proponents of cave dwelling by suggesting that a translucent, inflatable balloon could be used to seal openings while still allowing light in. Settlers might then fill the cave with oxygen. Add a little water and an entire ecosystem might be possible.

One fairly common sense caution I've read on this idea is that the cave floor will likely be filled with rubble (from the collapsed roof), and there might otherwise be sharp edges about that you would need to take care of first - may be even stalactite/stalagmite formations.

I definitely think we should send an airship to have a look.

#269 Re: Terraformation » Terraforming the Moon - Your opinion, please » 2007-07-03 22:13:23

Forget it. The Moon's too small to be properly terraformed at the surface.

Feel free to intellectually cripple yourself with premature, ill-informed judgements - god knows you won't be in the minority - the rest of us will continue to examine the possibility until actual evidence rules it out, as if scientists.

#270 Re: Terraformation » Iceteroids: What happens when they get to Mars? » 2007-07-03 19:44:07

I've always wondered about the mechanics of crashing ice asteroids into Phobos or Deimos.

That might be a way without slow down fuel trying to deliver them to a Mars orbit.

I quite like this idea.  It'd be hard - the incoming iceteroid would be moving very fast - you'd have to adjust it's velocity so that it would arrive at the right phase of the moon's orbit and, of course, the target is a lot smaller - but I think it is possible if you design for it.

We also avoid those big Mars surface kabooms that way.

You'd still get quite a large kaboom at the moon, preferably Phobos, so you'd get some moon dust coming down to Mars as well - but you wouldn't even notice if it came down during a dust storm - and, like you say it's all nice carbon/organic matter.

Also a good way to get those two big ugly rocks out of the Martian view of Earth smile

A 10 billion ton iceteroid (2.3 km diameter) is about 1/1000th the mass of Phobos - still it'd have quite a bit of momentum and would modify Phobos' orbit, particularly if you hit it repeatedly.  Perhaps we could kill two birds with one stone here (as it were) and modify Phobos' orbit so that it isn't in the way of a space elevator.

Seriously though Phobos is suppose to be covered many meters deep in black carbon soot.
If we can get water or oxygen to Phobos we can make lots of c02 for the Martian atmosphere.
Delivery of the produced co2 involves escape velocities of a few Meters per Second, so a gentle push will deliver it to Mars with no delivery vessel.

Not a bad thought, although Phobos with lots of water isn't a bad asteroid mining base by itself (assuming humans can live happily in low g).

#271 Re: Unmanned probes » NASA mission concept studies and missions of opportunity » 2007-07-03 17:21:18

I wondered how Deep Impact could study extrasolar planets without an instrument specifically designed for it, but the EPOCh investigation proposal cleverly exploits a focus flaw in one of the cameras ...

http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00000756/

Nice!

#272 Re: Terraformation » Nuke Mars - Use of nukes to release Martian CO2 » 2007-07-03 17:05:53

Anyone knows how much watts/m^2 the sun delivers on the surface of Mars?

About 45 percent of the energy recieved by Earth.

Actually the 45% figure is for the top of the atmosphere.  On an annual basis, the Martian surface receives ~450 W/m^2 vs. an average of ~200 W/m^2 for the Earth's surface because the Martian atmosphere is thinner.  The middle of the Sahara, on a perfectly clear day, can peak at ~1000 W/m^2, but most of the Earth's surface doesn't receive that.  During seasonal dust storms on Mars, light received at the surface can drop to ~100 W/m^2 (about the annual average for Seattle).

#273 Re: Terraformation » Iceteroids: What happens when they get to Mars? » 2007-07-03 16:58:14

Rather than crash comets into Mars, outgass they into atmosphere.

The nice thing about crashing them is that you get all that heat as well - but of course it isn't really an option if there are already settlers there at the time.  Also, not crashing them is a challenge - just shattering them doesn't help, you have to slow them down into Martian orbit.

#274 Re: Terraformation » Terraforming the Moon - Your opinion, please » 2007-07-03 16:47:53

That 300 years figure is AFAIK not true, because in Celestia ED it was shown that Moon had a thin atmosphere for a few billion years from volcanic primordeal gases.
The Moon's lack of atmosphere is mainly because the Moon was poor in gas and all volatiles from the beggining and because that thin atmosphere wasn't sufficient to entabilish ionosphere that will protect it - contrary to popular belief, the magnetic field is not required - as long there is a charged particle radiation blocking ionosphere.

The 300 year figure is just for thermal escape, it doesn't even take into account stripping by the solar wind

According to this calculator ; http://www.transhuman.talktalk.net/iw/Geosync.htm ;

The Moon is capable of retaing CO2 up to a temperature of 7 degress Celsius and oxygen up to -70 deg. Celsius so there will be a slight leak but neglible in the time of the human's civilization existence from it's beggining.

-70 Celsius doesn't meet the usual criteria of terraforming, and I'm sure you can appreciate how quickly billions of years would become hundreds since thermal escape is governed by a power law.

Crash some CO2 and water rich comets to it, seed it with Ceredian ice (it was recently shown to have more frozen water than is all supply of fresh water on Earth!), bring some microbes and you will have a paradise Moon.

I think you're being a little optimistic here, but I hope we both get to walk in lunar forests one day  smile

#275 Re: Terraformation » Terraforming the Earth’s great Deserts - Turning the Sahara into a rainforest. » 2007-07-03 16:22:24

You will disrupt the Earth natural regulation systems.There are a lot of desert organisms and you will kill them.You will destroy one habitat.
Anyone ever tought about this?

Hi m1omg, welcome to New Mars.

I think you would have a heavy burden of proof to show that reversing desertification was harmful.

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