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SearchTopic:BusinessOpportunity
Thanks to SpaceNut for setting up this topic. I interpret this action by SpaceNut as a reflection of his role as a leader of a volunteer community, looking for ways to fit new recruits into the structure so they have a chance to contribute under his watchful eye.
Thanks to kbd512 for his helpful comparison of communist systems and capitalist ones, and (while I'm at it) for a great number of posts on this forum that are packed with useful content on a variety of subjects.
Given this bit of running room, I'd like to provide a place for robust discussion of business opportunities in the context of Mars development.
Because Earth is the only place we humans are currently actually DOING business development, the conversation necessarily will include examples of Earth based opportunities.
I am looking for action plans, or for advice on how to improve action plans to increase probability of success in the marketplace.
Most of all, I am hoping this topic reaches young people who are thinking of building businesses, on Mars if that seems attractive, but certainly on Earth, where the number of people who need the structured environment of a JOB is in the billions. People who enjoy the privilege of participating in a JOB are benefiting from the services of JOB CREATORS, who assume risks that most job holders have no idea about, and many of whom will never comprehend.
In the context of the opening discussion of closing of plants and laying off of thousands of people by one American company, I have pointed out the opportunity that clearly exists to design, install and maintain emergency shelters for Mars or for Earth (or elsewhere). The elephant in the room is that the target population on Earth consists almost entirely of human beings who cannot afford the kind of shelter needed in their particular circumstances.
Accordingly, I am hoping to attract to this discussion persons who have studied financing of public works projects, or large scale projects in general.
The need is clear. The resources of capable human beings and plant and equipment are widely available. What (I perceive) is needed is a set of Job Creators who can match opportunity with resources and see a way to make a profit.
(th)
Thanks to SpaceNut and kbd512 for adding perspective about GM to this discussion.
I'd like to bring focus back to the thousands of people, and the equipment and plant that are routinely discarded by the churning of the capitalist system. The problem is most certainly not limited to GM. As far as I can tell, it happens in every country where capital is invested to try to secure the greatest return.
In the specific context of this topic, we have a customer need (whether individuals know it or not) and we have idle resources capable of addressing that need. This kind of situation has been going on for centuries and probably millennia. Job Creators are the category of people who can match the needs to the available resources. However, I concede that the vast majority of people who would benefit from high quality emergency shelter cannot pay for it. This appears to be the case for residents of tornado prone areas who cannot afford tornado shelters, for residents of hurricane prone areas who cannot afford hurricane resistant homes, and certainly for most of the retired people and low wage workers who lived in communities recently destroyed by fire.
The traditional solution is to walk away from the problem.
Elsewhere in this forum there is a discussion of why poverty persists in America, and I would imagine the question could be extended to the entire human population. The problem of organizing human talent and resources to bring about better conditions for all is difficult, and it appears that few people are capable of it. However, future leaders at this level are alive on Earth today, making their way through the education systems in their various countries.
(th)
On the note of the fire and buildings that were made of metal did fair better as well as did brick or any other flame widthstanding materials. Some say that is what regulations are for but others will contend that it makes constructions unaffordable.
The same holds true for flood prone areas with building on stilts. Earth quake zones on sway pads ect... that is the purpose of calling for the higher building standards. To reduce the costs to replace when disasters do happen.
SpaceNut ... thanks for giving this topic a boost.
Repost:
Thats sort of a great question for earth fires.Many a story of near dead when the fire over road the area a person was in had a deep water pool to protect the individual and animal alike. The issue of air quality can only be solve with preplanned air sources stored. Just not sure how much air supply you would really require. Of course that was the purpose of the old root cellars near a home that had just the door to enter in. Which would be stocked with all of what you would need to wait a fire underground.
I'd like to open this round with an assertion that I ** think ** some on the forum will agree with:
Job Creators (as a class) are far more important than politicians (as a class). Earth could do nicely without a single politician, but civilization would expire overnight without job creators.
Having said that, I see a gap between the potential service which job creators COULD perform, and the service they currently do perform, vital as that is, and productive as it has been.
The recent GM layoffs apparently will leave perfectly good, modern manufacturing plants, and thousands of (apparently) highly motivated productive people in a state of disuse. While GM decisions are (to my mind) perfectly reasonable, as the Capitalist system works its magic, the fact remains that resources are being set on the ground as the corporation adapts to the demands of the market place.
The specific instance of GM is just the most recent example of capitalism doing its thing, leaving resources on the ground as corporations adapt to changing market demands.
The above was preface for a Louis-like vision .... that the discarded human and material resources of GM, and other corporations, could be enlisted to manufacture and install fire-resistant emergency shelters in California and other states which need them, and tornado, hurricane and flood resistant shelters for states which need them.
I note that among the human resources to be cast aside by GM are (apparently) thousands of people who manage complex activities, or who manage finances for GM scale projects. My Louis-like vision would include enlisting such talents to figure out how to finance installation of such shelters for persons who perform the lowest paid level of service in society, such as home health care, cleaning buildings after hours, and countless other essential services that allow modern civilized society to keep going.
(th)
I think in terms of Mars, it's:
Your post does make me think for the early Mars Missions we need to think in terms of a buried emergency supply point some distance from the base with oxygen, food, an emergency battery and emergency shelter.
Louis,
Your earlier post in this topic came up when I was looking for "emergency shelter". There were a number of citations in several topics.
My question is:
Can planning for emergency shelter on Mars lend itself to similar planning for Earth.
For example, is it possible to design an emergency home shelter for use in California and other Western US states, where wild fires can and do consume almost everything above ground?
The environment in a forest fire has some overlap with or similarity to that of Mars, in that the atmosphere is not appropriate for breathing in an emergency.
As usual, I am looking for the business opportunities which may arise from a need for emergency shelter, both on Mars and on Earth (or other locations).
(th)
https://www.yahoo.com/news/nasa-chief-s … 21836.html
It appears that Mr. Bridenstine (Bridenstine) doesn't agree with you on this one, GW! (th)
I quite agree. What Musk smokes or not is his own problem.
He otherwise does good work, and the very best when he has the right top lieutenants around him, like Shotwell and a handful of others at Spacex. No one person can do this alone. He doesn't have the right team at Tesla, which is why it has some troubles, and why he has been overworking himself there.
That being said, there are folks who obsess over the wrong things. The kerfuffle over Musk smoking a joint is one such.
These folks are quite numerous, which is why Tesla stock dropped on the publication of the joint video, and not on the story about him overworking himself at Tesla. Same folks failed to ask why he was overworking at Tesla, did you notice? Logic and common sense have little to do with this effect.
This phenomenon is also why SLS/Orion is still publicized as the only way to get to Mars. Politicians abuse this effect all the time. Just as they have abused NASA since the end of Apollo. Kinda shows, don't it?
GW
Louis,
You've described the current NASA/JPL scientific robot experience, in thinking about a game played from Earth on Mars. The men and women who plan robot activities do just as you described. They study data sent back after the most recent round, as well as data from previous rounds where necessary, and design plans for activities for the next sequence. A young local acquaintance is a member of BattleBot team, of which I gather there are several in this community. I'm pretty sure the hardware is guided by wireless commands from booths adjacent to the arena. Feedback time is (probably) measured in milliseconds.
There may indeed be teenagers with the patience of adult scientists and engineers such as control Mars robots today, but my guess is they are few and far between. That said, I will let your idea simmer on one of my many back burners. Something may happen or show up in the news feed to support your concept.
(th)
Here's another idea I just thought of - we know multi-player computer games are hugely popular. What if you could link that concept with Mars, so that people see robots acting out conflict scenarios in a real Mars environment?
Yes, because of the time delay, you haven't got the immediacy of a normal computer game...but on the other hand the player (very likely a teenage boy) has the thrill of knowing you are directing a real robot on Mars, another planet in the solar system. This might be more of a strategic thing and possibly one where you are information gathering before the next round of action is beamed back on to your computer for 5 minutes. Again, it might not appeal to every teenager on the planet but it might appeal to enough, say 10 million around the globe to make this a potentially profitable undertaking.
Louis, every now and then your imagination gets ahead of me !!! I'll have to admit I was stuck back in a mode of imagining simulated flight over the Martian landscape. Your concept of long distance sculpture could be realized using 3D printer technology, if a customer were willing to pay for rental of the equipment and materials, much as 3D Printer customers do today on Earth. I have difficulty imagining anyone doing that, but it certainly will be feasible at some point.
kbd512 ... thanks for your perspective on the value of flight training for emergency capability. I like your CPR example, and would add to that the capability to stay afloat in water, which was a phys ed requirement at the school I attended in California.
However, what I ** really ** wanted to thank you for was the tip about RedBird, which was (I gather) founded in Texas in 2006. There are only two reviews on the company web site, but the pictures of the equipment give a good sense of how realistic the experience would be.
I see what you mean about not having a side view, but that could be dealt with if the manufacturer wanted to make the investment, and if customers were willing to fund the enhancement.
However, modern VR equipment might solve the problem nicely.
I am waiting for VR equipment to achieve a level that is beyond where it was when I last tried it a year ago.
(th)
Edit(1)
Spacenut ... I have no idea where this should go. Please move as appropriate.
SearchTerm:FlightSimulatorBusiness
The link below may be of interest to the pilots in the NewMars community.
The Mars connection is that there may be a business opportunity to load the simulation with Mars data as it becomes available.
Judging from what I can make out about the Google Earth Mars simulation, there is already a significant amount of data shipped home by Mars Observer and other probes. Google Earth has a flight simulator mode, but the citation below appears to be a cut above that.
A Google search for flight simulator and related topics turned up so many initiatives I decided not to try to document the search. One interesting citation was for a young British college student who is reported to have started a successful software business delivering "real" airport data to customers for flight training.
http://www.thisweeknews.com/news/201811 … ness-soars
(th)
Edit(1)
For Louis ...
Thanks for the link to that Wikipedia article about JPL/NASA decisions regarding time measurement on Mars. I was with them all the way, until I read that they decided to change the second too. I suppose that makes sense for overall consistency, but it eliminates the possibility of having a "universal" second.
As founder of a city on Mars, you have the option of adopting the JPL/NASA precedent or advocating for something else. However, the strength of the community which has actually landed and operated vehicles on Mars is significant.
One thing I noticed was that (according to the article) time zones have not yet been defined, but it seems to me humans will want them. Also, there will surely be an incentive for humans on Mars to maintain an Earth standard time tracking system in order to be able to tune into broadcasts of entertainment and news programs which (I am confident) will be sent on to Mars.
(th)
For Louis ...
Your understandable concern about scientific measurement of time led me to the speed of light. The Wikipedia entry below is encouraging, because it suggests (to me at least) that the second can be a truly universal time interval, usable in any setting.
For SpaceNut ... your observation that a day (on any celestial body that rotates with respect to its local sun) would logically be defined for that body by the regular appearance of the local sun at the local zenith seems (to me) to support the argument for letting go of Earth time. Ship time would (probably) be set to match the time of the planet of origin. I am speculating here, but perhaps it would be common practice to maintain a clock with Earth time on all vessels, but even that is problematic if relativistic effects become significant.
(th)
Begin Quotation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_light
The speed of light in vacuum, commonly denoted c, is a universal physical constant important in many areas of physics. Its exact value is 299,792,458 metres per second (approximately 300,000 km/s (186,000 mi/s)[Note 3]). It is exact because by international agreement a metre is defined to be the length of the path travelled by light in vacuum during a time interval of 1/299792458 second.
End Quotation.
Edit: Per the citation below, definition of the second has been separated from its astronomical origin:
Begin Quotation:
https://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/second.html
The second is the duration of 9 192 631 770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the cesium 133 atom.
End Quotation.
SearchTerm:SaganCityAttributesOf
To perform an unambiguous search for the above in NewMars forum, use the and function and the colon as tie breaker. eg, SearchTerm: and :SaganCity
Sagan City on Mars (2018 version)
Attributes compiled from posts by Louis
Location: 34.58 degrees West and 21 degrees North
Suggested by: Louis on NewMars Forum
Population: Zero as of 2018/11/27 on Earth
Policy for Time: NASA/JPL precedent
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timekeeping_on_Mars
A Martian day is divided into 24 Martian hours of 60 Martian minutes and 60 Martian seconds
Time Zones are not defined by NASA/JPL
Policy for Time Zones:
Time Zones are needed for coordination of activities around the planet
The time zones will default to 15 degrees of longitude
Lines of latitude and longitude have been defined by precedent
https://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Spac … de_on_Mars
Area: Circle of radius 50 kilometers
Boundaries: Circumference of a circle of 50 kilometers radius
Governance: To be defined (update pending)
Policy for Immigration: To be defined (update pending)
Policy for Behavior by Human Beings: To be defined (update pending)
Additional items: to be added
Most recent edit: 2018/12/16
(th)
I have been pretty specific about where I would put Sagan City, north east of the Viking 1 landing site.
Here's a suggestion for the exact location - about 20 Kms SW of the Wabash crater. The exact co-ordinates are 34.58 degrees west and 21 degrees north. You can view it here:
SpaceNut,
Louis might have to abdicate if Mr. Musk wants "Sagan City", but I expect we'll have lots of Musk related names:
Muskville
North Muskville, South Muskville, East and West Muskville
Greater Muskville
Upper Muskville, Lower Muskville
Olde Musktown
New Musktown
However, Louis has not yet chosen an exact location for Sagan City, so the point may be moot.
Edit:
Begin Quotation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Sagan
The landing site of the unmanned Mars Pathfinder spacecraft was renamed the Carl Sagan Memorial Station on July 5, 1997.
End Quotation.
(th)
Louis the Mayor of Mars may need to abdicate if Elon Musk wants to move to Mars
Louis,
I started out liking your preference for retaining the Earth "hour" of 60 minutes, but SpaceNut's discussion below leads me to wonder if it wouldn't be easier for everyone to simply adopt 15 degree time zones and settle for 24 Martian "hours" which are longer than Earth hours by 37/24 minutes >> 1.681818182.
But if we make that adjustment, it might be a reasonable extension to simply set the hour to 60 Martian minutes, or 61.541666667 Earth minutes.
My guess is that we humans would hardly know the difference, and coordination of activities around the planet would be greatly simplified.
The amount of time we call a second would (it seems to me) work as well on Mars as it does on Earth, so a minute on Mars would be 1.025695 Earth minutes. In that case, we would continue to use 60 minute "hours", and simply make microcode adjustment in digital clocks. In fact, digital clocks could be fitted with buttons to show Earth or Mars time.
Louis, there might be a novelty business opportunity in that thought, for Earth customers.
***
(I'll be happy to correct errors in any are found in this post).
Begin Quotation:
https://www.universetoday.com/14717/how … y-on-mars/
On Earth, this takes exactly 23 hours, 56 minutes and 4.1 seconds. In comparison, on Mars, a sidereal day lasts 24 hours, 37 minutes, and 22 seconds.
End Quotation.
(th)
25 hrs 37/60 hr versus 24 hrs both at 360 degree would make mars roughly 14.4 degrees for each time zone area versus earth at 15 degrees. Also earth uses 60 cycle per second as the start of its time base. 365.26 days, a period known as an Earth year. A year on Mars is equal to 687 days on Earth. On May 5, 2017, the sun will cross the Mars equator as this planet passes solar longitude 0.
I am not sure how "they" fixed the 0 degree longitude line but fix it they did (probably at some astronomical conference or some such I imainge, or perhaps NASA arbitratily chose it), it seems and I imagine it is already too late to move it. From the point of view of Sagan City, it can get by without being on the 0 degree line of longitude. Everywhere on the same line of longitude gets the same time once every Sol.
Curious about the history of Longitude Zero on Mars, I learned it was set far earlier than I had imagined:
Begin Quotation:
https://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Spac … de_on_Mars
19 August 2004
On Earth, the longitude of the Royal Observatory in Greenwich, England, is defined as the 'prime meridian,' or zero degrees longitude. Locations on Earth are measured in degrees east or west from this position, but where is the equivalent position on Mars?
Earth's prime meridian was defined by international agreement in 1884 as the position of the large 'transit circle', a telescope in the Royal Observatory's Meridian Building. The transit circle was built by Sir George Biddell Airy, the 7th Astronomer Royal, in 1850.
For Mars, the prime meridian was first defined by the German astronomers W. Beer and J. H. Mädler in 1830-32. They used a small circular feature on the surface, which they called 'A’, as a reference point to determine the rotation period of the planet.
End Quotation.
Edit #2: By convention, UTC is the abbreviation agreed upon for (in English) Coordinated Universal time:
As indicated above, I think it is time to change this to "Coordinated Planetary Time".
There is a web site where WWV time signals can be played from recordings:
https://swling.com/blog/2014/08/listeni … orado-usa/
Per Wikipedia:
Begin Quotation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coordinat … ersal_Time
Coordinated Universal Time (abbreviated to UTC) is the primary time standard by which the world regulates clocks and time. It is within about 1 second of mean solar time at 0° longitude,[1] and is not adjusted for daylight saving time. In some countries where English is spoken, the term Greenwich Mean Time (GMT) is often used as a synonym for UTC.[2]
End Quotation.
(th)
Thanks to IanM and Louis for considering the Time Zone topic.
This is not offered in judgement, but I'd like to point out that 3 AM at Longitude 0 is 2 AM one "Mars Hour" West ...
That said, the underlying concept (as I understand it) would be to add 37 minutes to the clock once a day.
If the residents on Mars set up a broadcast similar to the Universal Standard Time broadcast, then the longitude chosen for that service would allow the planet to catch up for 37 minutes once a Sol.
If residents set up their local times to match the Sun's apparent motion, then the 3 AM concept would work well, but in that case, the local time would be out of sync with the planet time.
Television broadcasts might be scheduled based upon "planet time", but that time would differ from local time by 37 minutes except in the broadcast time zone.
Edit: the radio broadcast service that announces "Universal Standard Time" is due for a name change, to "Planetary Standard Time", as the human race edges closer to being a multiplanet species.
(th)
This is for Space Nut ... I'd be interested in hearing thoughts about time zones on Mars.
A search for timezone produced only references to Earth.
Louis's proposed Sagan City would be as good a place as any for the New Greenwich site for a Zero point for Mars time zones.
Related subtopics would be how to divide the Martian Day.
Humans probably would like to retain Earth standard time, but the experiences reported by members of the JPL Mars Rover teams suggest (to me at least) that there are definitely issues with trying to move back and forth between the two time systems.
(th)
SpaceNut,
Thank you for copying the Solar Orbit Communications Hub post to this topic.
I'd like to clarify that the idea is NOT to put satellites into polar orbit around Mars, although that certainly sounds like a good idea, and there may be a business case for that service.
Instead, the idea is to build on the suggestion of placing a communications hub in the asteroid belt, by placing a communications hub in a Solar orbit, arcing over and under the ecliptic plane, so as to provide line-of-sight laser or radio frequency communication for customers across the Solar System.
Such a facility would serve as a commercial facility in the first instance, but it would appear to be a reasonable location for emergency communication services that will be needed as soon as humans venture far from Earth.
SearchTerm:SolarEMS SolarHUB
Edit: It seems unlikely that NASA has published a solicitation for proposals to set up a Polar Solar communications network. The guidelines for creating an unsolicited proposal are given here:
https://prod.nais.nasa.gov/pub/pub_libr … -Prop.html
(th)
In another topic, I ** think ** it was kbd512 who pointed out the need for a communications pathway for transmissions between Mars and Earth when the Sun is between the two. I searched but could not find the reference, but if someone can find it I'll be happy to add it here.
There would appear to be a business opportunity for a corporation interested in passing information between various outposts in the Solar system, for a modest handling fee. As I recall, the post I am thinking of mentioned the possibility of using the asteroid belt as a location for a communications hub.
I'd like to build on that idea a bit, to suggest a communications hub in a facility in Solar Polar orbit. This would be comparable to the polar satellite orbits in heavy use today on Earth. The corporation that would undertake this project could serve customers throughout the Solar System for most of the orbit. The exception would be when the facility crosses through the plane of the elliptic.
SearchTerm:SolarCommunicationsHub
(th)
Edit: SpaceNut ... thank you for finding the post I remembered, and adding yours as well.
tahanson43206 it was post 21 of Mars Communications and Navigation Infrastructure for Crewed Missions that talk of it and even in the journey time to mars I talk about how the body we are orbiting that it would block all radio transmissions.
Louis,
You ARE the Founder of Sagan City, if you will accept the responsibility, along with the opportunity.
The concept exists as an idea in NewMars Forum right now. Since a city is a social construct, you have a small loudspeaker now, but over time, there is nothing (that I can see) that would preclude this forum turning into a megaphone. Void said recently, in another topic, that NewMars is a discussion forum, and not a Mission Control (I'm paraphrasing from memory). In my view, the history of NewMars as a discussion forum does not preclude decision making upon occasion.
Accordingly, I recommend you accept the burden of making decisions for critical items such as the location.
By making a firm decision, you will collapse an infinite number of alternate futures into a single set, with your decision as a marker for subsequent branching by others as they see places for themselves, or for their ideas, in the space you have created.
Therefore, I invite you to make a firm decision on location of Sagan City.
It is not clear to me that you have consulted the preferences of Dr. Sagan, but if any exist, now would be a good time to locate and to republish them.
(th)
Personally I favour the NE corner of Chryse Planitia.
https://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/target/marsmap1b.jpg
...about 35 degrees West and 25 degrees North.
(North East of the Viking 1 Lander Site)
However, whatever location is chosen will be a compromise. Chryse Planitia is not too far away from Olympus Mons and Valles Marineris - two interesting locations and future tourism destinations. The water content in the regolith in that area is supposed to be around 4-6%, so exploitable. There is iron ore in the area. And it's flat for landing. The landing site has to be pretty flat so either it will be a plain or in the middle of a very large crater...more likely a plain I think.
Louis, thanks for the link to the Guardian's compilation of planned cities. I regret that some of the plans did not come to pass, most especially Buckminster Fuller's floating structure in Japan. That idea seems appropriate for the Water World we humans are creating for ourselves. I note that many of the plans depended upon a single sponsor with deep pockets, although some are government projects. In the case of dictators it's difficult to separate the two.
My reading of your concept for Sagan City is a bit more hasty than I would like, so I may have missed your development of the funding source. It will be interesting to compare your concept to the steps outlined in the Guardian piece.
Edit: Location, Location, Location ... the mantra of the Real Estate community .... where do you think a city dedicated to the memory of Carl Sagan would be located?
(th)
I am happy to beat Musk to the title of founder of Sagan City! lol
Yes, I think work on a flexible plan for the main settlement - or Sagan City - should start now. It doesn't need to be a ground plan as such - more a conceptual plan, or a "possibilities plan".
This is a useful link for thinking about a city on Mars:
This topic appears to have swerved a bit, over time.
I'd like to try to bring it back with this report of a research project:
https://www.engadget.com/2018/11/21/mit … aft-flies/
Apparently the aircraft has been developed to the point it can fly a few feet on Earth, in air.
I'd be interested to read any comments forum members might have on the suitability for this propulsion method on Mars.
(th)
For Louis, #7 above:
Louis, your response regarding the Mayor title is encouraging, on several levels.
Would you agree that you deserve the title of "Founder" of Sagan City on NewMars Forum?
Some options become available if you decide to move in that direction.
A city is a social construct. The location and the hardware involved, and even the ongoing activities are NOT in themselves a "city".
By observation, I note that real estate plans start with a vision, are supplemented with architectural plans, and are fulfilled when buyers commit to funding portions of the plan.
A city planned on Earth, for implementation anywhere, starts with a vision.
In the present case, Sagan City would be planned on Earth for implementation on Mars.
(th)
Louis, your initiative to create "Sagan City" leads me to inquire if you are willing to serve as Mayor of a virtual city here?
A group of human beings are going to have to work out interpersonal relationships while at the same time living within the constraints imposed by Nature, whether they are living on Earth, on Mars, or in a virtual community designed to simulate Nature.
The recent discussion about voting shows the potential for the undertaking.
I am in favor of establishing a planetary defense committee from the outset, as just one example of what might be done.
(th)
You can have an even vote even with an odd number in any case if you have an odd number of abstentions. And there will always be people who abstain when it comes to contentious issues - or refuse to vote because they say the proposal is wrongly worded.
For SpaceNut in Post #57 ...
Thanks for support of teleoperation as a viable option for commercial dry ice (and possibly water) mining at Mars.
The pdf at the following link is dated 1997, but it shows that even then, teleoperation of heavy mining equipment was moving forward in Australia.
http://acs.ist.psu.edu/misc/dirk-files/ … rfaces.pdf
I would expect very limited human on site presence for any mining activity on Mars.
(th)
Hey tahanson,
It's certainly conceivable that mining dry ice at the poles could be economical, but it's hard (for me) to imagine that it would actually make sense unless the end user is actually at the poles.
Benefits:
Will produce water as a byproduct
In my view, the question is: Is more labor and thousands of km of shipping worth saving yourself 150 kJ/kg? In my opinion, it is not. It's good to compare this to coal: Coal on Earth has an energy content of 30 MJ/kg, 200 times greater than the energy you save. Because the energy content is so high, it really is worth pulling out out of the ground and shipping it to the point of use (or at least it was in times past). I question whether mining CO2 from the poles would save any energy at all.
For JoshNH4H ... thank you for considering the suggestion of dry ice mining for a commercial competitive enterprise.
A successful business is not necessarily the one that spends the least for raw material. I would like to see robust competition between the pole miners and the make-your-own-dry-ice community. However, I was surprised to see provision of water as a benefit. While there is plenty of water ice at the poles, (I gather), my business plan did not include harvesting any of it.
Can you point me to a post or a link that explains how water ice might occur when dry ice sublimes?
It might make sense to harvest water ice while collecting dry ice. That is a different question.
(th)
