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#1 Re: Civilization and Culture » Martian Kibbutzim - Benefits of the kibbutz model on Mars » 2003-01-13 11:02:34

AJ:
Although I take umbrage with your responsive technique, which would tend to end the conversation before it has been properly fleshed out, I will do my dutiful best to continue.

Agreements between "neighbors" works well when the worst that can happen is one's house burning down due to a pyromaniacal child.  Insurance comes in, the home is rebuilt, and the two neighbors may never speak again.  Increased vigilance and criminal prosecution soon follow.

In a martian atmosphere, what can happen is a fire which causes the limited amount of oxygen to be combined with carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, amine, ammonia, and various carbonic acids.  One cannot merely walk outside of their home to get a breath of "fresh air", cough against the visiting ambulance, and suck down a cup of water. 

After a few "incidents" in a rudimentary biosphere, individuals less understanding to the habits and vagaries of children and teens will demand restrictions.  These may wind up being imposed capriciously on the "offending parents and child".  I honestly believe that restrictions and modifications above and beyond those required for terran children will naturally progress in response to these "incidents".  I have found that in situations regarding survival, without a code of conduct and some mechanism of enforcement, things go overboard rapidly. 

I take as an example my five years onboard a nuclear ballistic submarine as supervisor of a nuclear power plant and engineroom.  Every so often, we would end up our patrols allowing male relatives and children of sailors to come aboard for a few days of "fun".  The children had to be over a certain age, and had to be supervised at all times.  Now, the sailors who brought on board their sons could not, obviously, watch them at all times.  Maintenance and watchstanding were ever-present.  Other sailors agreed to watch their kids, or the kids had to agree to stay with their dads on watch.  In my particular circumstance as a nuclear power plant supervisor, I would not have been able to take my children into the engine room compartment, as they had no training in reactor plant operations, had no dosimeters to be issued, and we could not legally willingly expose children to radiation.  So the nuclear power plant operators who decided to bring their children onboard could not see them during their watchstanding times.  Other sailors watched them, or a relative came along to keep an eye.  Sadly, these kids never got to see where their fathers spent most of their days.

Verbal or written agreements to curtail a child's actions are noble, but I don't think in the long run viable.  Trained providers of education and care could do the job when both parents are busy performing maintenance, watch, or whatever their jobs entail.  Agreements for special needs could then be created between parent(s) and providers.  This could mean overnight care when needed, partial care when needed, special religious or moral code needs, etc.  Opting out of a formalized system of education and training would be up to the community.  Perhaps some communities would make it a requirement, perhaps others would have a more open system of care.  I think most communities, given a choice, would fall somewhere in between, and provide measures dependent on the individual child's behavior and growth.

Provide a flexible set of rules to choose from, and let the communities decide which they will follow.  But please, let's provide a canvas to at least paint on....

#2 Re: Civilization and Culture » Martian Kibbutzim - Benefits of the kibbutz model on Mars » 2003-01-10 16:53:48

First of all, I want to say that is wonderful to see so many respondents who are honest and forthright.

I think it is important not to poison the well, however.  To restate what I have said in a manner which was not written serves little purpose, other than to force others (and myself) to restate what is already placed in black and white.

That said....

Many American settlers approached "the New World" believing that they were going to live in communities wherein they could brandish their own unique beliefs without those around who disagreed "getting in the way".  Many came believing that the moral stances they inherited from Dutch, English and other cultures would work just fine, with a little weeding, tree-cutting and vegetable farming.  Others approached what would become our land with the unique vision of freedom, of a blank canvas, Rousseau on a grand, natural scale.  In each case, those that had inhabited the land for over 10,000 years (at least) and had adapted a culture unique to it were swept aside as "savages."

Phew.  Abridged history lesson for those who already know the story.

What will be doing?  With which of the aforementioned belief systems will we approach this "New World"?  The earliest inhabitants on Mars will be uniquely conforming adults, studied, prodded and poked, interviewed adinfinitum to ensure no "instabilities which will negatively affect the Mars Mission."  And why not?  Did ancient voyagers to North America make it with a boatload of "rugged individualists", or individuals who still rowed after long months of traveling, because they were afraid of getting whipped or thrown overboard?

The "savages" of Mars will be the landscape, the inescapable burden that one failed component (back-ups aside) can kill. (Sometimes what breaks a machine also breaks its backup.) Peter reminded me in an e-mail the cold, hard fact that Earth is six months away.  I believe that was how long the journey back to European soil was as well.  Eventually, those individuals who have been poked and prodded and interviewed adinfinitum will feel the same alienation as the earliest settlers of America.  Attachments to terran authority will eventually dissolve, as well and "mission creep" will occur.  How long will it be before Martians decide that they will do things in their own manner?  When your communications gear goes out, leaving you alone, and a massive rupture in the hydroponic room's shielding occurs, you quickly develop a sarcasm toward "King George" (so to speak), comfortably on his throne back home.

Peter (and I thank him for his comments) describes a methodology wherein we provide alternatives, or perhaps "wiggle room" for the early Martians.  This will require foreseeing a society emerging which begins to either develop its own rules ala carte, while facing up to the requirements of survival.  Society in general back home may even be offended by some of the rules.  We should be willing to provide support and understanding.  And we should keep an open mind....

I'll get off my little soapbox now.  Once again, I enjoy the commentaries.  Everyday is a learning experience.

#3 Re: Civilization and Culture » Martian Kibbutzim - Benefits of the kibbutz model on Mars » 2003-01-07 15:12:10

Thanks, Cindy for the great welcome!

I think it is important to maintain this discussion at the forefront, only because as issues as to childrearing are encountered, answers should arise in other incredibly important areas of daily life.

Making room for the essential training of children affects the workplace culture.  Child training in the agriculture centers will affect the issues of farmhands.  A tightly controlled youth will require individualized outlets, affecting space and time requirements for the whole community.  And so forth.

Terran society fits the children around the rest of us.  Why not, with the chance to do so, create an environment around our future generations?  Why not make that the hub of Martian civilization?

#4 Re: Civilization and Culture » Martian Kibbutzim - Benefits of the kibbutz model on Mars » 2003-01-07 13:57:58

While reading some of the posts in the civilization and culture area of the bulletin boards, it came to me that the children are left out of the picture quite often when discussing how to live, how to make do in a Martian climate.  This is unfortunate.  Just as in the deserts, despite the verdant communites within travelling distance, many youths decide to stay put when they choose a place to settle.  With the sense of adventure, of accomplishment, of pride engendered in the future Martian youth, it only seems obvious that many will choose to stay. 

So how to raise them properly?  Yes, how to raise the children of Mars.  This will not be an environment wherein a child can open any door that is unlocked, can scamper freely without consequence both to him/herself and to the community and Martian settlement program.  Cuts, bruises, death, fire, loss of oxygen to the community can be the ready result of an errant youth.  Shall the overworked pioneers of the Martian environment be left to provide these important lessons in their part time?  Would you be comfortable with your neighbors' ability to provide the necessary training to protect your life?  Will schools be able to accomplish this during a standard morning to early afternoon schedule, while ingraining the valuable school and community curriculum?  I'm not sure the terran standard will be appropo.

I would recommend the model of the Kibbutz with regard to the raising of children.  Agricultural, defense, linguistic and cultural mores must be passed on in a ready manner to young minds to protect them from a hostile environment, to ensure viability of the community.  Children are placed in the care of the centralized educational and care system, "manned" by those chosen (or volunteered) to provide the basic curriculum.  Children are taken into the fields during part of the day and shown how to contribute to the food supply.  They are shown the aquatic systems and how to maintain them, the laundering facilities and how to use them, how to shoot a weapon, and so forth.  Eventually, certain children grow to care more about aspects of the community, and choose to have a greater, more consistent role in them.  Experts grow, and improvements are naturally made to those systems.

The children are encouraged to live at the centralized education facilities, and parents and other relatives are provided the time to stop by and either take them home for the evening, or stay at the facility with the children often, maintaining the stable environment children cherish.  There is no depravity of attention or affection by the entire community, and truly, a child is raised by the village.

In the Martian scheme, children could be placed in daycare learning environments early on, and provided with the necessary education that will protect them against the many dangers just outside the community.  As they grow, standard educational curriculum is interspersed with Martian living skills, including life suit use, emergency procedures and the importance of the agricultural and life support system.  As the children grow, these important skills will become ingrained, second nature.  One more step toward sustaining the community and the goal of settling Mars.  Children will learn social skills and to value teamwork early in life.  Conformity of upbringing would be more readily maximized, moving towards strict compliance with life-saving procedures, and the ability to have some measure of faith in your fellow Martian.

Any comments as to this methodology?  I'd love to hear them.

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