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#1 Re: Unmanned probes » Phoenix - North Pole Region Lander (PHX) » 2008-05-26 10:35:46

Why are some polygons almost clear of pebbles and rocks? Could it be that they are slightly higher than the surrounding ones and have been scoured clean by the wind?

I bet that's it. Check out these Earth-arctic pics for comparison:
http://www.uaf.edu/water/faculty/nolan/ … lygons.JPG 
http://www.mun.ca/biology/delta/arcticf … /l1009.jpg

And the Antarctic Dry Valleys:
http://www.nsf.gov/od/lpa/news/03/image … ns_cen.jpg

There's some excellent pictures of arctic permafrost in the December 2007 issue of National Geographic.

#2 Re: Terraformation » Minimal Martian Terraformed Atmospheres » 2008-02-09 14:54:35

Midoshi wrote:

Ultimately, we can state with confidence a conservative lower estimate of 120 mbar for the limit of safe CO2 partial pressure. This raises the possibility that CO2 might actually be used as a significant buffer gas in terraformation.

This is quite encouraging. The implications for life support systems are profound as well. The cumbersome separation of elevated-CO2 greenhouses with the low-CO2 habitats is nullified, eliminating the need for connecting airlocks. And the fresh smell of growing plants can waft into the living areas. I appreciate any idea that simplifies surface habitats.

#3 Re: Exploration to Settlement Creation » Domed habitats... - ...size, materials, and more. » 2008-01-25 16:15:53

jumpboy11j wrote:

Clearly sunscreen is very effective,, so a layer of this tuf in its pure form a few mm thick should effectively remove the UV. According to wikipedia, most of the compounds don't decay at all, and can increace insolation in the dome by emitting light at lower wavelengths.

I like this possibility, although I worry that even a few mm will really obscure more visible light than would be needed. I wonder how transparent it can be made. I hope it could be so designed.

Terraformer wrote

Possible spacecraft radiation protection usage?

I think the radiation of most concern is X-rays and cosmic rays rather than UV and so sunscreen would have less applicability, right?

#4 Re: Exploration to Settlement Creation » Domed habitats... - ...size, materials, and more. » 2008-01-23 09:35:38

I personally have a favorite type of UV protection on mars.  It is called sunscreen.  More precicely, Homosalate, octinoxate, octisalate, oxybenzone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosalate
etc.

or more generally:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunscreen# … ngredients

just puttinga coating of any of these on the dome fabric would allow it to be very protective.

Interesting idea. Is this true for UV-A, B, and C? How long would it last? How thick would it need to be provide protection and how much would this reduce transparency?

#5 Re: Exploration to Settlement Creation » Domed habitats... - ...size, materials, and more. » 2008-01-21 15:18:30

Terraformer wrote:

Clear tubing, filled with clear water?

It might be made to work in theory, but the complexity of making it in situ and maintaining the system seem prohibitive to me.


I am researching the properties of Kevlar. Does anyone know how transparent Kevlar sheets could be? It has a flaxen tint it seems.

Also, what is the rate of decay for Kevlar under UV radiation? Does anyone know or know where to look?

#6 Re: Exploration to Settlement Creation » Domed habitats... - ...size, materials, and more. » 2008-01-20 11:11:07

A mesh of rubber/plastic pipes that are filled with high pressure water? The water will keep the dome stiff and provide radiation protection. Wait, Bigelows probably thought of that for inflatable spacecraft.

I think you would be trading a lot of visibility and such a system would be very difficult to maintain.

I like the idea of water as UV protection, but I haven't seen a good way to use it in domes. (I'm also strongly in favor of a single pressure layer for the sake of simplicity.)

#7 Re: Exploration to Settlement Creation » Domed habitats... - ...size, materials, and more. » 2008-01-19 11:22:15

Perhaps it could be sealed better if the structure was a giant metallic sphere? The bottom half of the sphere could be submerged in the regolith.

The top half of the structure would use a lattice of plastic plates (or any suitable transparent material) reinforced by a welded metal frame.


The material to build this could be mined from an Iron rich asteroid.

This certainly would be strong, but I fear that the cost and effort involved would prove prohibitive. I favor pressurized plastic domes with a exterior, unpressurized steel lattice abrasion shield in which plastic panels can be periodically switched out as they break down under UV and wind erosion.

#8 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » High School Students Discover Asteroid » 2008-01-19 10:44:24

How cool is that.

As a high school teacher, I'll second thatsmile

I think our society would do well do put the energy and talents of teenagers to better use in such hands-on activities. The more the better.

#9 Re: Terraformation » Minimal Martian Terraformed Atmospheres » 2008-01-18 22:22:32

qraal wrote:

If it's as rain, the water will end up back in the body of water it came from, or some new body, but if it falls as non-seasonal snow (say on a high mountain glacier) then we might not see it again.

Good point. "The Alpine Glaciers of Tharsis are lovely this time of year..."
Although the possibility of glacier-fed rivers is pretty neat. Obviously if ice is accumulating above a given altitude then a transitional layer of seasonal freeze/thaw would exist below the permanent glacier and stream systems would develop.

Also, the gentle profile of the great mountains would allow for thicker glacial accumulations and slower movement - a recipe for a lot of water "wasted" in alpine glaciers. And then there's the southern highlands...

#10 Re: Terraformation » Minimal Martian Terraformed Atmospheres » 2008-01-18 22:10:25

However, even at 200 mBar, we should be able to enjoy lakes that freeze during winter. Many (most?) species of cyanobacteria are not killed by a winter freeze so we should be able to get a biosphere started in small areas quite early.

Excellent. I wonder how much ice thickness affects life in the photic zone. Obviously a relatively thin ice layer transmits some light to the water below. At what thickness does ice reduce the photic zone to zero? But given that phytoplankton survive in the Arctic Ocean that freezes over and goes many months with little light suggests that such a Martian environment might be less harsh. Global warming concerns are pumping money into Arctic research.

MarsRefresh wrote:

A good idea dies hard. Very Happy

So the 1/2 bar pressure will require thousands of years in the above scenario. Obviously that's a long time. Have you detailed how much/many iceteroids your scenario has introduced?


Rick wrote:

Now we need to increase the current N2 pressure by about 28 times. I am assuming that half of this comes by H-Bombs in deep rock deposits. I am assuming that for every tonne of nitrogen brought by iceteroid an extra tonne of nitrates are volatilized by the impact. So we would need to increase Mars' nitrogen level by 7 times via direct importation. (This would be 240 impacts of the 2.6 km bodies described above.)


This is from the post near the top of this thread where I'm trying to increase the N2 partial pressure to the point where nitrogen fixing bacteria have enough N2 in the air to fix.

Note that if you halve the radius, you increase by ~8 times the number of asteroids that you need to move. (Of course each asteroid is 8 times easier to move...) Large impacts blow away bits of atmosphere, where as small impacts blow away zero to an insignificant amount of air. So I generally suggest we move lots of smaller bodies than a couple big ones.

Thanks. It makes sense that large impactors would be defeating the purpose. However, as the atmosphere thickens the prospects of inserting a larger object with a highly elliptical orbit to "aerobrake" into the upper portion of a 200 mb atmosphere could potentially bleed off a lot of material before the orbit decayed into an impact. The MRO clipped the upper atmosphere repeatedly to slowly move into a smaller orbit. Obviously that's a whole different scale than we are talking about here.

#11 Re: Terraformation » Minimal Martian Terraformed Atmospheres » 2008-01-15 18:42:17

When would large bodies of liquid water become stable on the surface? .... And we sure wouldn't need to fertilize the water with iron.  smile

Hi MarsRefresh, everyone.
  I smiled out loud over the iron fertilizer thing.  No, I can't see iron being the limiting element in plankton growth.

  The question of when water will become stable depends on if you count water with ice on top of it.  Also the salinity can lower the melting point of ice of course.  Water is very dark so it absorbs heat well. 

  Currently Mars is so cold that super saturated brines last for a surprising amount of time (minutes) before they evaporate.  If we increased the pressure 4 fold, we should be able to get stable hypersaline brines in the warmer equatorial regions. 

  As we add pressure and warm the planet you end up in a race.  The higher pressure makes water more resistant to evaporation.  The increased temperature makes it more likely to evaporate.  The kicker is when a significant amount of water vapor is in the air, that depresses evaporation and makes liquid water much more likely.

  So in answer to your question, it won't take much to make local brines stable on the equator.  But for lakes and seas, we want temperatures a bit over zero and pressures around half a bar and up. 

  I don't have time right now to give more details.  Check back later and I'll give harder numbers.

  Warm regards, Rick.

A good idea dies hard. big_smile

So the 1/2 bar pressure will require thousands of years in the above scenario. Obviously that's a long time. Have you detailed how much/many iceteroids your scenario has introduced?

#12 Re: Planetary transportation » Trains on Mars - Could a rail system provide martian need » 2008-01-13 18:07:41

An Aerial Ropeway is the connection by ropes (wires, cables etc) between   
at least two terminals (to load and unload). The cars can be fixed or temporary coupled and be moved either by the running rope, or by the motorized car itself. There are many different solutions. 
 
Thethered High Altitude Platforms up to 20 km and more have been studied and found feasible. Thether samples were built and tested to 100.000 lbf breakstrength. The mentioned Carbon Nano Tube rope technology is today still experimental (max. length 20 cm!).
   
Yes, the whole system can be operated by solar power, because of its low energy needs to move the cars on the rope mainly in the flat plains. The towers at the terminals will be constructed to hold big parabolic mirrors to concentrate solar radiation onto sterling engines (generators). 

In the long range exploration on Mars the power will be supplied by big generators, landed sometime before the first crew will arrive. For safety reasons the landing sites will be miles distant. Though you need some robots to connect the (heavy) power cables to the habitat.
These robots can be instructed to install the aerial ropeways. Actually the power cables put between supporting pylons could be used as an Aerial ropeway. 

The important point of aerial ropeways is they are movable without loss of material. In mountain areas they are temporalily installed for taking out the cut trees (logs).

Yes, this sounds very feasible. Does each gondola have an electric motor that draws electricity from the line? How much energy does this take?

These robots can be instructed to install the aerial ropeways.

So have the robots drag the heavy steel suspension cables out along the route and then hoist them into place? How would the terminals be built? Steel Frames?

#13 Re: Terraformation » Minimal Martian Terraformed Atmospheres » 2008-01-13 17:44:46

Good stuff Rick.

When would large bodies of liquid water become stable on the surface? Say we did everything possible to retain snow melt in Schiaperelli (461 km in d) and Huygens (456 km in d) craters (equatorial Mars) to form shallow seas to support diatoms and phytoplankton. These can cycle large amounts of CO2 and O2 (as we discussed with global warming) creating a more dynamic atmosphere. And we sure wouldn't need to fertilize the water with iron.  smile

#14 Re: Life support systems » Greenhouses » 2008-01-13 17:01:51

After pouring back through the old posts, it seems that Robert Dyck's proposal of PCTFE for greenhouse material is the best bet. But it still seems than a PCTFE greenhouse would get cooked by UV radiation. The UV coatings are metals and eliminate the transparency for visible light as well. Am I correct in this? Are there any plastics which block UV, while allowing visible and infrared? It sounds like Kevlar does, but in so doing it breaks down rapidly.

If not, does anyone have information on the UV resistance of glass?

why worry about that? why not just ship over bulbs for planting... its prooven to work, so why not use it? besides you can keep the plants on any kind of schedule you want then instead of a specific one. mars based. and as for the exterior paneling you can use what ever you want instead of a transparent one.


Whether you use it for agriculture or architecture, a transparent structure is aesthetically far superior to subterranean dwellings. I cannot imagine many people moving to Mars if they cannot see the real sky above them. I also continue to worry about power generation, at least until your system is proven, let's say. Even fusion will have limits. I don't see the point in living underground on Mars when we could more easily live underground in Tibet or the Atacama desert. (And I do not worry about the "survival of our species" in the physical sense like many other Mars settlement advocates do.)

I should note that the

Spectrally Selective low-e glazing can the most dramatic protection for UV and IR. By trapping InfraRed light in, radiative heat is kept in. IR is radiant heat. According to the graph to the right, spectrally selective transmits 82% of violet light, 85% of blue and green, but 45% of orange and 30% of red.

from the Greenhouse link still reduces visible light quite a bit.

#15 Re: Life support systems » Fines » 2008-01-13 08:51:41

An interesting point. Sounds like question for an expert, I know localized magnetic fields exist all over Mars. I also suspect that much of the dust is abrasive volcanic ash, like what many scientists suspect comprises Meduasa Fossae (if it isn't water ice glaciers). So seals should be watched and carefully maintained on a Mars mission.

#16 Re: Life support systems » Fines » 2008-01-12 13:32:41

Well, I've read a bit about this and the finest material that gets lofted high into the atmosphere is the red dust that covers so much of the planet. From what I've read it is primarily iron oxides (60+%), particularly hematite (rust) with the fine grained consistency of talcum powder. Beneath the surface layer the soil seems to be mostly decomposed basalt (excellent soil on Earth). I read a lot about this in the newest edition of the Encyclopedia of the Solar System, but I'll check my facts next time I'm at the library.

#17 Re: Life support systems » Greenhouses » 2008-01-12 12:18:41

After pouring back through the old posts, it seems that Robert Dyck's proposal of PCTFE for greenhouse material is the best bet. But it still seems than a PCTFE greenhouse would get cooked by UV radiation. The UV coatings are metals and eliminate the transparency for visible light as well. Am I correct in this? Are there any plastics which block UV, while allowing visible and infrared? It sounds like Kevlar does, but in so doing it breaks down rapidly.

If not, does anyone have information on the UV resistance of glass?

#18 Re: Terraformation » Asteroid has a chance to strike Mars » 2008-01-12 10:30:44

RickSmith wrote:

But I think that a fairly modest effort would allow us to crash it. If we could get to it 6 months earlier we would need a lot less effort. (e.g a magnetic sail with a few dozens of Newtons of thrust for 6 months may be enough.)


So, a small rocket or magsail could be utilized. And we have repeatedly demonstrated an ability to rendezvous with such tiny objects in the vastness of space. (Targeting technology amazes me!) :!:

#19 Re: Planetary transportation » Trains on Mars - Could a rail system provide martian need » 2008-01-11 17:01:57

That's what we want to see on Mars: one line from Base 1 to Mine 1 then the increase in capital, efficiency, raw materials can be used to build a line to Mine/Base 2 (along with lots of other things).

You mentioned elevated trains or raised roadbeds, but did you ever talk about aerial ropeways?

They are oeconomic to transport to mars (low mass, low volume); easy to move where needed (terminals, ropes, and gondolas); and can be set up even over demanding grounds like glaciers and rocky fields.

The  ropes would be made of carbon nano tubes enforced polymers, so the distance between terminals could easily be 10 km. The gondolas could be even thethered airships. The solar energy collectors would be installed at the terminals.  The robot technology you will need for the installation of grids between the landing sites (cargo and crew) and the big power plants can be used to build the aerial ropeways.

What exactly do you mean by areal ropeways? (Mind you, I'm a historian not an engineer.)

Also, has anything useful ever been made out of "carbon nanotubes enforced polymers"? I've heard the term floated, but is it still a speculative technology? By extension will they be producable on Mars? Ten km long cables seem pretty fantastic, even under Mars gravity. That's a lot of tensile strength.

The solar energy collectors would be installed at the terminals.

Why, to power the whole system? Please explain.

The robot technology you will need for the installation of grids between the landing sites (cargo and crew) and the big power plants can be used to build the aerial ropeways.

I'm not following you here. What robot technology?

#20 Re: Terraformation » Asteroid has a chance to strike Mars » 2008-01-05 11:07:22

Thanks for the calculations Rick.
Your estimates seem conservative and reasonable. We have already demonstrated the capability of rendevous with asteroids. If the asteroid turns out to be more volatile rich (I haven't seen any descrition of the asteroids classification, has anyone else?) then it would be easier to move. Still deflecting this asteroid would likely be easier than fetching an object from the main or kuiper belts. A good chance to demonstrate the technology.
By extension, Earth has quite a few rocks that come close. Wikipedia notes:

As of 1 January 2008, 5,118 NEO's have been discovered: 65 near-Earth comets(NEC) and 5,053 near-Earth asteroids(NEAs). Of those there are 427 Aten asteroids, 1,947 Amor asteroids, and 2,671 Apollo asteroids[3]. As of 4 January 2008 there are 165 NEAs on Impact Risk page of NASA website[4]. But none of those NEAs is placed even in 'yellow zone' (Torino Scale 2) meaning that none of those asteroids warrant attention of general public.[5] There are 905 NEO's which are classified as potentially hazardous asteroids. Currently, 136 PHA's and 731 NEA's have an absolute magnitude of 17.75 (effective from 30 November 2006 as per NASA website[6]) or brighter, which roughly corresponds to at least 1 km in size.

So, if Mars has even a fraction of the Earth totals this may be a very useful source of impacters.

#21 Re: Terraformation » Asteroid has a chance to strike Mars » 2008-01-05 00:53:35

Hi folks,
  The odds are now better than 1 in 33.

New report on Mars crossing asteroid.

Warm regards, Rick.

Yes, this is exciting. Of course, it still is not great odds. But I expected the odds to length not improve with better data. Perhaps when we find out more info on the track and mass and classification of the object it might be a candidate for a not so gentle nudge towards our neighbor planet. The delta v needed will probably turn out to be ridiculous though, right?

#22 Re: Planetary transportation » Roads on Mars » 2008-01-02 23:41:17

What about just melting the rocks and dust so it would solidify into a road?

i'm curious if lightning has the same effect on the materials there in their dirt/sand like ours does where it turns into a glass sheet... if so i already have an idea of how to melt the roads easily

I am curious to see your "polished" proposal for melting roads.  smile

Dragoneye wrote:

wrote:

and as far as a rover driving through those storms... i doubt it... do some research on how intense those storms get... immagine a big huricane in the southeastern section of the US... thats what they essentially are... thats why i am suggesting such big precautions.

Well, the highest recorded wind speeds I found were 250 mph, and these were in the upper atmosphere, screaming off the poles in the Spring. If we design for 200 mph surface winds that should be plenty, I think. However, currently the Martian atmosphere is less than 1% as dense as Earth's and so has that much less punch. On the other hand, things weigh 2/3rds less.

When analyzing the potential of windmills on Mars, Zubrin calculates that a 60 mph (30 m/s) wind would generate the equivalent force of a 12 mph (6 m/s) wind on Earth. This is a ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore a 200 mph wind on Mars would be roughly equivalent to a 40 mph wind on Earth.

My conclusion is that the equivalent of a 40 mph terrestrial windstorm would pose less of a threat to a surface rover than the darkness of heavy dust conditions. BUT, this is true while the atmosphere is at 1 millibar. If we double the atmospheric pressure than this would dramatically increase the power of the wind. (Would it exactly double?) So, I think your idea of sequestered roads are increasingly relevent as terraforming progresses.

The most likely scenario for a future Mars society will be a combination of various road and railroad structures. The Dragoneye Iron Roads would first be built in high priority routes, say between two close bases. However, unless it's much easier to build these roads than I expect, the raised roadbeds would be an important component of the transportation network and simple jeep tracks would still have value for low priority pathways.

Hmm. I wonder if canals would be feasible? Perhaps a long 1-2 mm thick polyethylene tube 10 m (or even 5 m?) in diameter could be laid over long flat surfaces such as the northern plains and covered with a a thin layer of soil. Fill it 1/3 to 1/2 full of water and send narrow barges through, one direction at a time. Ships on Mars would have a ridiculously shallow draft and the barges could carry suprisingly large amounts of cargo. Water transport is by far the cheapest transport method on Earth. Anything that can go by ship goes by ship.


as far as the water transportation... its super cheap here on earth because the "ground work" is already done... and you dont need to do anything to get it going just have a ship drive it there on water... to get water there you would neeed to melt ice caps on the planet... I wouldn't do that seeing as water is a HIGHLY valuable comodity....

it would be cheaper i think to "melt" cheap tracks or guides to be able to drive things arround... and since we dont have to worry about power since i have that part figured out (literally we dont need to worry about power)

the biggest thing we need to do there on the planet is get plant life introduced, and get water to water them.... once we do that we can derive plastics and other resources we can use to build and construct things there with so we aren't dependent on long durration trips from earth for supplies... I really do think that a major requirement for us to be getting to mars and sticking arround there for some time we need robots to help do lots of things for us...

I know i'm getting off topic with roads... but roads are all stemed off other things.... i dont feel exploration of the planet is our biggest thing off the bat.. and to do that we would be getting off focus.. our biggest thing is establishing a presence there.

I agree that a sustained presence is essential. Once we get permanent colonists on Mars there is no going back.

You're probably right about my water canals idea. It's attractive only if we get substantial quantities of water from the ground or ice caps (although nothing like a sizable chuck of either would be needed). The reduced gravity would make everything quite bouyant too.

Your comment on not worrying about power has me curious. Is your company about to announce the development of mobile fusion power plants?

#23 Re: Planetary transportation » Roads on Mars » 2007-12-27 22:51:41

What about just melting the rocks and dust so it would solidify into a road?

i'm curious if lightning has the same effect on the materials there in their dirt/sand like ours does where it turns into a glass sheet... if so i already have an idea of how to melt the roads easily

I am curious to see your "polished" proposal for melting roads.  smile

Dragoneye wrote:

wrote:

and as far as a rover driving through those storms... i doubt it... do some research on how intense those storms get... immagine a big huricane in the southeastern section of the US... thats what they essentially are... thats why i am suggesting such big precautions.

Well, the highest recorded wind speeds I found were 250 mph, and these were in the upper atmosphere, screaming off the poles in the Spring. If we design for 200 mph surface winds that should be plenty, I think. However, currently the Martian atmosphere is less than 1% as dense as Earth's and so has that much less punch. On the other hand, things weigh 2/3rds less.

When analyzing the potential of windmills on Mars, Zubrin calculates that a 60 mph (30 m/s) wind would generate the equivalent force of a 12 mph (6 m/s) wind on Earth. This is a ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore a 200 mph wind on Mars would be roughly equivalent to a 40 mph wind on Earth.

My conclusion is that the equivalent of a 40 mph terrestrial windstorm would pose less of a threat to a surface rover than the darkness of heavy dust conditions. BUT, this is true while the atmosphere is at 1 millibar. If we double the atmospheric pressure than this would dramatically increase the power of the wind. (Would it exactly double?) So, I think your idea of sequestered roads are increasingly relevent as terraforming progresses.

The most likely scenario for a future Mars society will be a combination of various road and railroad structures. The Dragoneye Iron Roads would first be built in high priority routes, say between two close bases. However, unless it's much easier to build these roads than I expect, the raised roadbeds would be an important component of the transportation network and simple jeep tracks would still have value for low priority pathways.

Hmm. I wonder if canals would be feasible? Perhaps a long 1-2 mm thick polyethylene tube 10 m (or even 5 m?) in diameter could be laid over long flat surfaces such as the northern plains and covered with a a thin layer of soil. Fill it 1/3 to 1/2 full of water and send narrow barges through, one direction at a time. Ships on Mars would have a ridiculously shallow draft and the barges could carry suprisingly large amounts of cargo. Water transport is by far the cheapest transport method on Earth. Anything that can go by ship goes by ship.

#24 Re: Planetary transportation » Roads on Mars » 2007-12-21 12:53:03

its really hard to judge from here about the rock types. as i dont know if they are more light weight like lava rock or if they are more dense like something like a solid quartz or something. If the rocks are more light weight and not as dense... bigger rocks as big as maybe 5' in diameter could still easily be effected by the storm (rolling them or picking them up even)

as far as how much regolith will be needed.... i'm guessing a parts ratio of about 10-15 to 1 i dont know how iron rich it really is and what it would take to do that part of it... but it is there and easily redily available.

Yesterday I was reading that most rock on Mars is basaltic in composition and most of the soil is decomposed basalt. The ultra-fine dust that coats everything is a majority hematite so this would be useful. In another thread someone mentioned that the soil itself generally contains "near ore-grade" levels of iron. However, areas of "dark soil" on Mars do not (if I remember correctly) have so much iron. However, let's presume that such a "sheet smelter" begins to make sheilds for the trench road that is excavated by another machine/robot. How would you power your excavators? How big would they be?

On the other hand, I still like the idea of rock or iron paved raised roads as I think a rover could drive through a major storm, although night driving will always be slower I suspect.

Also, would you lean the iron sides into each other to form a "roof"?

#25 Re: Unmanned probes » Cool places on Mars to land » 2007-12-21 12:25:26

I think planetary scientists must be drooling over their computer models as we write. But this is really exciting. If the improbable happens and the asteroid hits a gresh peice of regolith then MRO can scan the ejecta for its composition and water quantity. Just to see how much water would be vaporized compared to the volume of the crater would be insightful.

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