Methanogens are microorganisms that produce methane as a metabolic byproduct in hypoxic conditions. They are prokaryotic and belong to the domain of archaea. They are common in wetlands, where they are responsible for marsh gas, and in the digestive tracts of animals such as ruminants and many humans, where they are responsible for the methane content of belching in ruminants and flatulence in humans.[1] In marine sediments, the biological production of methane, also termed methanogenesis, is generally confined to where sulfates are depleted, below the top layers.[2] Moreover, methanogenic archaea populations play an indispensable role in anaerobic wastewater treatments.[3] Others are extremophiles, found in environments such as hot springs and submarine hydrothermal vents as well as in the "solid" rock of Earth's crust, kilometers below the surface.
As some of these dwell in the ocean debths, I anticipate that they can be tollerant of colder temperatures.
Generally their diet can be Hydrogen and CO2. The outputs are Methane and biomass.
Of course I am thinking of an ice slab, per Arcadia Planetia. The aproximate size of Californian and Texas, having a depth of 130 feet or 40 Meters.
So, a vast area, and if it was decided to cover it even in part with solar panels as an energy souce. Using that electricity primarily to generate Oxygen and Hydrogen, then a chemical energy source is a reasonable plan.
As for the Oxygen, I guess that could be transported by various means to a location for use. I suppose a pipeline, but I would be afraid of it burning the pipe. So, I offer the notion that it could be diluted with another gas(s). Prefered would be a N2/Argon mix as a remnant from injecting Martian atmosphere and supplying H2 to the critters.
The Methanogens would be very sensitive to Oxygen, so in initiating an ice covered pool, it would likely be necessary to "Scrub" the Perchlorates out, perhaps with microbes that like to consume it.
As for the Martian air injected, it also has a small amount of Oxygen, so microbes suitable will be needed to consume it before the other components of the atmosphere are exposed to the Mathanogens.
I have provided a paint diagram of a Diving Bell / Egg Shell structure to immerse in the cold water. It should explain itself.
So in this scheme I am thinking Solar, but it can be adapted to also use Nuclear, either and/or Fusion. So, it will be updatable as technology advances.
In the solar mode, I would plan to cover vast sections of the ice with "Sheds" which would include solar pannels on the roofs. This would collect energy, and also shade and cool the ice.
The water below would be heated both by the metabolic actions of the Mathanogens, and from the habitats that would be immersed in the water.
If in the future it was desired, then energy could be gathered 24/7, by rejecting excess heat from the water, into the universe, using compenents of the "Sheds" as the heat rejection devices.
The interior of the "Sheds" would be relativly clean of Martian dust contaminants, and could contain large amounts of automation and robotics to produce goods.
As for the methanogenic archaea, they could be filtered out of the cold water as biomass. Brine Shrimp can consume them, so I presume that they could be used as feed for other livestock.
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While I see that much of the ice slab(s) could be delt with this way, there is no reason that in places you could not have other installations such as greenhouses and domes that directly use sunlight.
Also in places it might make sense to make a polder, with berms or regolith and drain water out of them so that you could build structures that could have good foundations on bedrock.
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So, I think this is pretty good.
Concerns would be conditions where the underlying permafrost might melt from under the cold water. So, then it is desired that the water be cold. If the permafrost floor were to melt, then perhaps the water would drain down to the aquifer, which it thought to exist about 2500 feet / 750 meters down. That would most likely not be desirable. But the permafrost on Mars is extremely thick so it should be possible to deal with that potential.
As for the brines presumed to be in that aquifer, they could be extracted and the materials mined from them.
So, this could be a very prosperous way to deal with what Mars has to offer in many places, it seems.
Done.
Your observation about water being concentrated as compared to the atmosphere of Mars is interesting (to me for sure!).
The system developed in Ramani's lab can produce 25 times more oxygen than MOXIE using the same amount of power. It also produces hydrogen, which could be used to fuel astronauts' trip home.
Some of that 25 times greater energy may be consumed trying to compress the gas mixture before it is processed.
I'll have to go back to the MOXIE source materials to be sure.
However, the article about the new technology very clearly points out the critical difference that MOXIE uses "high temperature" electrolysis.
I would expect to find that heating the material to be processed is a significant contributor to the energy difference.
Edit#1: A search using Google did not turn up a specific analysis of how power is consumed in MOXIE.
However, one of the articles did remind readers:
The net reaction is thus 2CO2 [longrightarrow] 2CO + O2
MOXIE delivers ** both ** components of a propellant combination that could be used to leave Mars.
Now I'd have to go back to the improved water/brine experiment to see what it's outputs were at 25% energy improvement.
MOXIE can be set up anywhere on Mars.
The brine system would (of course) have to set up where brine is available.
Bringing the discussion back to the topic:
Brine ** can ** be shipped around Mars via pipelines.
(th)
]]>Edit
Void is correct as they are an apple and orange comparison and are not performing the bond breakdown in the same manner.
Also brine water will have many minerals with in it if found free standing to make use of which is a whole new problem for the electrolysis equipment.
When computer is up we can make a new topic.
]]>It is good to see this report in this topic!
It had appeared previously in another topic, but since it was missed there it has another chance for visibility here!
I looked for the earlier post but did not find it, so your presentation of the research is clearly needed.
The claim of efficiency of 25 times improvement (relative to MOXIE) is remarkable.
The system developed in Ramani's lab can produce 25 times more oxygen than MOXIE using the same amount of power. It also produces hydrogen, which could be used to fuel astronauts' trip home.
(th)
]]>https://phys.org/news/2020-11-tech-oxyg … salty.html
Not Done.......
]]>]]>For SpaceNut re
You are on a roll today, with the (to me amazing) links you've provided in several topics!
The water flow rate calculations (with multiple charts) was really something (for me at least) to see!
Regarding Calliban's original concept ... it occurred to me to ask Google how the engineers who designed the Alaska pipeline (I'm not sure which one the quote below is for) planned to deal with the issues Calliban raised ...
Alyeska Pipeline - TAPS - Pipeline Operations - Pump Stations
www.alyeska-pipe.com/TAPS/PipelineOperations/PumpStations
The Trans Alaska Pipeline System was originally designed to operate with 12 pump stations. Only 11 were built due to overall pumping efficiency. With today’s throughput and pump station upgrades through the Electrification & Automation project, only four pump stations are in use today. Pump Stations 1, 3, 4 and 9 currently pump oil through TAPS. Pump Stations 3, 4 and 9 have been retrofitted with new E&A pumps …I am amazed to see how much technology has improved from the time the original design was finalized, to today's four pumps able to perform the entire job.
In the context of a Mars pipeline, I would expect there would be planning for similar in pipeline pumps to maintain pressure against the inevitable losses. I'm pretty sure that oil is heated for transfer through the Alaska pipeline, but would have to go back to be sure. However, in the case of the Mars brine pipeline, I would think that heating (using solar panels for input) would make sense, to ease the burden on the pumps.
I noticed that the charts SpaceNut found reached all the way up to the 12 inch diameter that Calliban had mentioned.
Brine may well have different characteristics that plain water.
The article with the charts mentioned smoothness of the pipe as a factor determining losses.
(th)
Southern Ocean surrounding Antarctica are said to have a temperatures ranging from −0.8 to 2 °C (35 °F), salinities from 34.6 to 34.7 psu.
https://edptoolbox.org/documents/Pipeli … -Cover.pdf
https://www.hunker.com/12460059/require … ater-meter
pipe size for water flow rate
https://www.constructionknowledge.net/p … design.pdf
]]>I'm intrigued by your prediction in this post:
Calliban wrote:One idea that does intrigue me is the possibility of transporting water at low pressure as brine, flowing through a long plastic pipe, buried in the regolith. A small diameter plastic pipe, maybe a foot in diameter, between a harvesting facility at the poles and a base or colony closer to the equator. Friction in the pipe would reduce flow rate to a trickle. Maybe it wouldn't matter if that trickle was maintained 24/7, some 365 days a year.
There may be resources readily available to help a reader to understand the forces at work inside pipes. I would have thought that pressure would overcome resistance to fluid flow inside a pipe, but perhaps the bursting strength of the pipe is a limit.
(th)
I found this yesterday, chemical tricks with basalt.
https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/0 … n-dioxide/
Quote:
An untapped opportunity
Mineral weathering is one of the main mechanisms the planet uses to recycle carbon dioxide across geological time scales. The carbon dioxide captured in rainwater, in the form of carbonic acid, dissolves basic rocks and minerals—particularly those rich in silicate, calcium, and magnesium, like olivine. This produces bicarbonate, calcium ions, and other compounds that trickle their way into the oceans, where marine organisms digest them and convert them into the stable, solid calcium carbonate that makes up their shells and skeletons.
The chemical reactions free up hydrogen and oxygen in water to pull more carbon dioxide out of the air. Meanwhile, as corals and mollusks die, their remains settle onto the ocean floor and form layers of limestone and similar rock types. The carbon remains locked up there for millions to hundreds of millions of years, until it’s released again through volcanic activity.
In the past I suggested putting dune grains into the bottoms of bodies of water. My intention was to generate Hydrogen for microbes to consume. The process would be slow, might be speeded up with a stratified lake where the bottom could be fairly warm. I believe PH also would matter.
If Mars is terraformed, it is almost certain that those dunes will weather away anyway. That might make you unhappy, as they might absorb atmosphere. Not sure.
Anyway the dunes are mostly Olivine, and a little Fieldspar from what I have read. Igneious rock, but already ground down for Martians to use.
But I really want to ponder if it would be possible to use a plasma arc to speed the process. You can do similar with carbon rods.
This is a demonstration:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ge … 1300E1428B
The output of the above process could be useful, as you can also generate Carbon from CO2, with a Plama arc method.
Other interesting plasma methods:
https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/article … ivAbstract
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 9406014816
https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/article … ivAbstract
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45JdxSyGZLo
How Mars is a good place for treating CO2 with plasma methods:
https://www.newsweek.com/living-mars-se … sma-688603
The other day I read an article that indicated that solid Carbon can be extracted from either CO2 or Methane, using a plasma method including "A Plasma Centrifuge". But I havn't find that article yet again.
So, lots of chemestry with plasma.
I think using basalt will need some work. For Earth you have to grind basalt. On Mars the basalt dunes are at least partially ground to the optimal size.
And of course I am looking for methods to get supplies of fluids to pass through pipelines on Mars. That gets me enough on topic I think.
Done.
]]>However it is determines what a rational method might be.
Done.
Done
]]>https://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/pr … chmura.pdf
Existing Natural Gas Pipeline Materials and Associated
https://www.croftsystems.net/oil-gas-bl … important/
https://inspectapedia.com/plumbing/Gas_ … ations.php
So after the material for the piping is selected we then need equipment to be able to lay them under ground between terminal locations that are until a base build up is unknown.
]]>