Terraforming Earth

Void · 2021-11-26 19:46:23

There is a difference between plastic and micro-plastic. Microplastics are everywhere, including inside of us.

The health implications are not that known. If a turtle chokes on a plastic bag, that is not the same as micro-plastics.

Most plastics eventually sink and go to the bottom of the Ocean. So, that is a "Carbon Sink". We might like that.

I have previously indicated that I investigated Cows and micro-plastics. They can digest it.

Not all of the seas have "Plastics" floating in them in a large concentration.

So, really micro-plastics and plastics confuse the idea of using the seas to grow seaweed or other plants.

I think it is an improper thing for you to keep trying to smother what I am trying to say about ocean farming with the issues of Plastic and micro-plastics.

The fact is that to make fertilizer energy must be consumed. Most likely oil or natural gas. And here we have a solution where down below are lots of nutrients. Up above are lots of photons underutilized, and also CO2 which is in this case, "The stuff of life".

~70% of the Earth is oceans. Not all of it or most of it will be suited to grow kelp, but some other schemes may be possible.

Now you can ask hungry people, who cannot afford fertilizer to grow food on their marginal land if they would be willing to eat Kelp with some microplastics in it, or would they rather go hungry?

What would your answer be.

We already know that there will not be sufficient international co-operation to stifle the Input of CO2 into the atmosphere. It would ruin the economies of various peoples around the world. They may give lip service, but in the end when it is a choice of starving to death in the cold or burning stuff, I think you know what they will do.

Our "Green" energy methods are not ready yet. And with ocean farming burning some stuff will be just OK. Eventually the fuels will run out and we will have to go to the "Green" stuff. But not that of the religious nutters.

Done for now.

As for MARS, I was thinking Kelp or other aquatic plants in water with artificial lights. Probably under a lid of 33 feet of ice, with insulation layer between the ice and water, and an air gap between the insulator and the water. However the salt water mixture needed may be touchy.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-11-26 20:26:44)

Void · 2021-11-28 11:37:21

OK, I want to turn the CO2 issue on it's head. Instead of a toxic poison that will kill us all, what if it is a nutrient?

OK shrinking Sahara Desert: Lava Tubes: https://principia-scientific.com/co2-cl … hopping-8/
Quote:

Using Satellite Images, Venter Et Al. 2018 Found An Eight Percent Increase In Woody Vegetation In Sub-Saharan Africa Over The Last Three Decades, Underscoring The Global “Greening Trend”.

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2021/02/25/ … 000-sq-km/
Quote:

NASA Vegetation Index: Globe Continues Rapid Greening Trend, Sahara Alone Shrinks 700,000 Sq Km!

The above is likely due to the Stomata in plants not needing to sacrifice as much water from the plant tissues, in order to get the "Nutrient",
CO2

The current religious nature of climate change/ global warming hype, is simply group think and really at it's foundations are important signals, poorly quantified coupled to the desire to have a social movement so that it can be used as a political football for mouth/ear power brokers.

Young people often suffer from depression, more than those who are older and who feel that they "Made It" in life. So, they get exploited by those who want to prosper from religious mob sculpting.

Mobs are pretty much idiots. So, you cannot expect solutions from them, rather, as some politicians/religious entities, prosper from feelings of insecurity and frustration from those who can be subjugated verbally into emotional prisons. For the exploiters, the solution is not to solve the problems, but to talk about them endlessly, and to pump up the hysteria.

The way these games are typically played, are to get people hooked into an addiction, to then restrict the supply, and then to sell it, either legally or on a "Black Market".

They find out what you want, or offer you something unfamiliar that you might like to do. Then take it away and then sell it.

If it is an illegal item, then that provides more power, as they can then note who is participating and reward and punish those persons in accordance to attainment of power($). So, then a drug dealer or annoying person, can be legally put into the criminal reform/torment system on the basis of the need to control the "Market", and to punish.

An example that might be milder, would be to pry an opening between genders. Genders typically know how to mate. However, if you screw up their psychology, then you can make them dependent on products that somehow might make it more possible to mate. Probably very little of the obviously criminal involved here. But Enhancement of looks, or the perception of it as a starter. So, you see it is not
desired that male and female will be well balanced, and capable of mating without a huge struggle. (Mating here includes successful child rearing). So, to put a vampire bite on things, a broken psychology needs to be created in the population.

I am not sure that the powers that be are actually fully aware of what they are doing. It just happens that if you make a profit doing something, you may then do more of it.

I regard the Climate Change/Global Warming story to have taken this path. It is very good that warnings have been given. However, mobs will not produce rational solutions, or if they do, it will be an Accident. Remember that the power brokers are in love with power. If the problem is solved, then they may well loose power.

Now, I see Kelp and other aquiculture as a potential solution to both an excess of CO2, and to some degree, hunger.

Kelp:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelp_forest

So, I will be back to talk more about that.

Done for now.

Last edited by Void (2021-11-28 12:03:47)

Void · 2021-11-28 18:30:33

I am repeating these references from post #49, as they are wonderful.
Grow Kelp:
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2021 … on-neutral
Kelp as food:
https://www.webmd.com/diet/health-benefits-kelp#1

So, in my opinion is the discovery of a new resource set. Lower water has dissolved
nutrients, and the upper waters hold nutritious photons and CO2.
We are still like a baby dependent on what the Earth can give. It is silly to think
otherwise. But with this resource set, I anticipate that we can stabilize the
situation until we get good ground solar, wind, and space solar energy, and as well,
energy storage.

Certainly putting less carbon in the air is a good thing at this point, but if that logic
is true, then if America and Canada have natural gas to sell from fracking, the
cleaner thing to do is to sell it to others, so that they can reduce the burning of other
fuels that have more Carbon.

And this seems to give evidence indeed that the leadership at this point is struggling to
keep the problems in continuation instead of improving the degree of problem. This then
fits into the notion that the objective is to use the problem as a continuing source of
political power.

The extraction of oil from the reserves is just wrong as it seems possible that the objective
will be to get us into an energy pinch with the Middle East again. With that then they
might hope to generate hysteria, instead of rational thinking, maybe go down the wrong
path for energy.

At times it seems that they want us poor. So, then they can do patronage to the surfs.

What they should instead do is encourage the buildup of a frack log, or additional production
and distribution of the results of fracking.

Methane, I think very likely gets absorbed by the biosphere, as it would be a stupid biosphere
which would not take advantage of a energy source of Methane/Oxygen in the atmosphere.

In the use of Kelp, there will be many options, and many of those will end up with Carbon
sequestered in the lower layers or bottom of the Oceans.

I guess I might list those pathways later.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-11-28 18:40:47)

Void · 2021-12-02 22:03:35

OK, this is an absolute gemstone in my opinion. Finally, more understanding.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 … 113215.htm
Quote:

Volcanic fertilization of the oceans drove severe mass extinction

So, they think Phosphorus is the key, and that seems reasonable. I would also consider Iron.

-----

So, the big change is, while volcanism can release greenhouse gasses, in conjunction with photo life on Earth, its fertilizers can draw down
the CO2 in greater quantities than what the volcanism produces, and so cause severe ice ages.

Interesting thing, (Speculative), is that for a Snow Ball Earth, this would not so much be true. In that case with much less photosynthesis, CO2 might build up, to the point to help end the severe ice age.

I don't believe that Snow Ball Earth situations, ever completely destroyed all habitats. I think it moved some of them to the Ocean bottoms, as, sublimation would have eroded very deep holes in the ice sheets, in certain places, where the atmospheric pressure could well be more than 2 bars, and even without much CO2, that would be quite a greenhouse effect. There could have been rivers, lakes, and rain, and snow melt in these ocean bottom holes.

It seems to me that if Venus had had oceans with Cyanobacteria, it would have been very hard for a greenhouse effect to dominate.

For Mars, we surely don't know enough.

I agree that we should back off on the notion of adding phosphorus to the Oceans. It would be expensive. Also, yes if you created too much decaying life in the oceans you could create an anoxic situation. Similar for Iron.

Still most anoxic situations in Oceans may likely be us sending out organic materials down rivers in excessive quantities, to too concentrated a location.

-------

In the previous post(s) I mention a method to move Kelp vertically up and down. Down at night to get nutrients from the lower cold water, and up to sunlight and CO2 during the day.

So, there is a case to view CO2 as an ocean nutrient.

There is a possibility that many forces on this planet are encouraging a religious movement, of the Nature Goddess sort, in order to try to get the western nations to deindustrialize, and then be vulnerable to conquest.

I that concept is more than paranoia, then we should have a look at who is getting money donations from who in the line of such a supposed possible plot.

Shields Up!

Actually there is likely some of that, but mostly experts who think they know enough was probably the bulk of the problem.

Taking fish endlessly out of the sea, taking the nutrients, then pooping them down the drain and concentrating that into zones where
anoxia will take hold. That is a possibility.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-02 22:22:26)

Calliban · 2021-12-03 06:57:21

Hello Void, that is interesting. If suggests that ocean fertilisation may be an effective way for sequestering CO2. We know it works only too well because it has worked before. I wonder if we could use this to produce marine biofuels as well? Have one ship that deposits iron and phosphorus into sea water and others that follow, sucking in and harvesting the biomass in some way. This is concentrated (centrifuge?) and fed into tanks, ready to deposit into a land based anaerobic digester that produces methane as a natural gas substitute. The spent sludge will be a nitrogen rich fertiliser that can be applied to land based agriculture to improve soils.

Void · 2021-12-03 13:38:11

Short answer, probably yes.

However, it turns out that experiments have been done with Kelp farming, where they lower it to deeper water at night so that it can absorb dissolved nutrients, and then they bring it up to the sunlight and more CO2. This promotes 4 times normal growth.

------

Unfortunately science news, is ambiguous, and is after all in it for the money in reporting/entertainment.

It is not yet that much of a military concern.

What we seem to be getting is religion coupled with reportage money churn.

We are developing a "Carbon Sin". I am not completely up on the difference between guilt and shame cultures, but this seems to be getting
into psychologically unhealthy territory. (Typically guilt cultures are like western cultures, shame cultures perhaps more like Muslim cultures, but that it not so important).

The important thing about religious peasant cultures, is that an active effort is made to prevent upward mobility. So, it is quite likely that prescriptions to fix things may very well be false science. Rather silly potions that do nothing or actually do harm.

So, those who are of that kind of "Green" can kiss my.......

I have mentioned acquisition-types (Business), military (Warlords), and religion (Priests). We could hope to have Intellectuals.

And I of course will now display arrogance, and propose that I could struggle to a bit of Intellect here and there.

And I have arrived at the notion that Carbon is a nutrient, and not a sin. Surely if you over provide many nutrients, it can have what we may consider negative effects.

It appears that Nature, (Mother or Father), or just how reality works, has another gift for us that we could use.

Kelp, nutrients in deeper water, underused photons above, and the nutrient CO2.

I am actually in favor if machines that regulate CO2 output to a level that "Nature" can handle. However it appears that we may have method(s) to enhance what Nature can handle.

This could give us the room to develop better energy collection, storage, and distribution methods, including space energy and perhaps better forms of Nuclear.

This then might stave off a cultural collapse, until better footing is arrived at.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-03 13:52:47)

SpaceNut · 2021-12-03 19:20:43

Glad to see that the Volcanic ash contained the plant nutrients such as potassium and phosphorus landing in the oceans to aid in the plant life growth. Also that the Kelp is one of the most commonly farmed types of seaweed. ... Globally, seaweeds are thought to sequester nearly 200 million tonnes of CO2 every year. I see that doing some more reading on it that takes in between 36 to 40 hours to dry, depending on how much humidity is in the air. So the process just needs a bit of misting to keep it from happening while in the extended co2 absorbing cycle if its approaching the drying times..

Void · 2021-12-03 20:21:39

Yes, Kelp is quite interesting, I think that there would be many ways to process it.

I believe that there is an intention to make aircraft fuel from it.

I can also think that pyrolysis, with solar concentrators, could be used to create fuels, and Carbon. Just a notion.

Biochar if dropped to the bottom of the oceans, would likely stay out of circulation for a long time. But perhaps we would not like that long term. Of course, orbital mirrors would help against too much cooling, if we lose, too much CO2.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-03 20:28:16)

SpaceNut · 2021-12-04 20:30:24

Found that life on the floating garbage is happening. On the Great Pacific Garbage Patch, scientists find a surprise: Coastal life Scientists documented more than 40 coastal species clinging to plastic trash, including mussels, barnacles and shrimp-like amphipods.

Void · 2021-12-04 21:44:46

That it quite interesting. Eventually, I think that life will "Evolve" to eat the plastics.

Already microbes in the digestive systems of cows can digest microplastics.

It is possible that if some sort of sea farming does lead to thermal destructive solar ovens to cook fuels out of sea plants, then it may be that plastics could be collected and included into that process.

But of course, then the organisms that colonize the plastics would die.

What is the morality about that?

Done.

Void · 2021-12-12 11:04:58

I am still internet challenged today, so I guess I will tuck this in here. It is sort of a repeat, but I like the illustrations on this one.

Have not read it yet, in detail, so I want to now.

https://www.fastcompany.com/40458564/co … utral-fuel

Pause......,or done???

Well, that one is a problem as there is an add that gets in the way.
https://news.usc.edu/182840/kelp-as-bio … cientists/

Maps of where Kelp grows:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=ma … BasicHover

I like this one:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view … ajaxserp=0

I am guessing that for robotic Kelp farms this can be expanded a bit, as those do not rely on bottom features as much, and possibly putting the kelp down where it is cold to get certain nutrients, would allow a daytime time temperature that is warmer.

Also, there may be other aquatic crops.

I don't look too favorably on the notion of sequestering CO2 from the atmosphere mechanically to make fuels, or to store it away. All of that suggests a need for energy, just to make the machines and to run them.

Aquiculture does in this case involve machines, but I anticipate that as they are largely solar powered the potential for energy gain and also food is greater.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-12 11:17:16)

Void · 2024-06-03 10:53:40

I found this interesting: https://phys.org/news/2024-06-satellite … house.html
Quote:

JUNE 3, 2024
Editors' notes
Satellite mapping reveals a global bloom in greenhouse cultivation
by University of Copenhagen

Image Quote:

It seems good to me that there is a distribution of types of people working on this.

It is possible that over time this could grow in scale, and perhaps to some degree point to methods to use in space.

Done

Quote:

it is taking place in low- and middle-income countries in the Global South.

That is incorrect. China and Mexico and Turkey are not in the global south. Morrocco, Spain, France, and Italy are.

Done

I am guessing that the reasons that the rest of N.A. and north Europe are not doing as much has to do with economics and culture. Probably groceries are available at a competitive price from open air agriculture. But that does not so much explain France. That may be cultural.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2024-06-03 11:12:27)

Void · 2024-06-08 18:41:35

I was given this rebuke: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 69#p224269, when trying to take an alternate path to a related goal, but after a few days of consideration, I can see that a good alternate path can occur here. And so compatibility is restored.

I do not believe that what is stated here has to be an eternal situation: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 19#p223719 It is a possible future not a mandated one.

I have been considering the rejection of energy into space as a way to cool down the Earth. Ideally this could be done while getting economically beneficial results as well. I think it is possible.

It may be possible to filter light and use some of it and reject some of it back into space. This could be done by modifying the albedo of vegetation. But I have also suggested rejecting light and heat from the polar ice deposits on Earth. These are hard to access though, and environmentalists would cause a lot of trouble about it very likely.

But it has also occurred to me that we have alpine regions that may be more accessible where the atmosphere is less thick. We also have Mid-Latitude deserts where the greenhouse gas water vapor is relatively less present in the atmosphere above the land.

There are some developments that are becoming important.
1) The just prior post indicates greenhouse technology being developed.
2) The SpaceX Starship effort is likely to become competitive with the Falcon 9 and Heavy, soon, I expect, being able to do what they can do but even better.
3) The field of robotics is expanding in a very explosive way. This will likely include very sophisticated Heliostats as robots.
4) In addition, we have pigments that can reject heat to the universe in certain wavelengths, and so produce a cooling effect.
5) In addition, we have anti-twinkle lasers developed for telescopes.

The combination of these suggests that there will be a vast expansion in productivity and the result will be a lowering of costs for materials by 100, or maybe even 1000. It might be less than 100, but it is going to change everything.

The results of the next era may make it possible to import things like basic metals from the Moon and Asteroids.

As soon as SpaceX can recover the Superheavy reliably, using naked Starships they likely can replace the Falcon Series rockets. But I expect them to wisely keep working on a fully reusable Starship as well.

Isaac Aruthur has talked now only about power stations in orbit to beam power down to Earth, but he mentioned, also cases where you might beam up to orbit. And so of course I am thinking about using heliostats to do that Using an anti-twinkle method, and so then creating concentrations of light in orbit where energy density will be useful to propulsion and construction in space. And it should not be a shock to realize that in doing this portions of the Earth could be rendered cooler. Maybe you did not see that coming.

Pause..........

Here we go, Isaac Arthur mentions sending microwaves from the ground into space, but of course I am suggesting, sending photons from the ground to cool to focus points in space: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=VRDGAR Quote:

Clean Energy From Space
Isaac Arthur
2 months ago

So, imagine reflecting light from the surface of the Earth to a focal point in orbit. There then perhaps some power method such as a heat engine. And perhaps included in that synthetic gravity machines that also function as energy flywheels.

And with an energy concentration we might also power spacecraft. Those could be powered in various ways. Photon Sails, as one, Electrodynamic Tethers as another, perhaps the expulsion of reaction mass as another. The beaming could be from the surface of Earth or from the orbital stations, to give energy density to such spacecraft. Then they would have a more favorable mass to energy density ration for their power supply.

Keeping in mind that the cooling of the surface of Earth is likely to be an objective, then low efficiency of reception of photons to the orbital power stations may not be a concern.

And power in orbit could be beamed as microwaves to large population concentrations.

It would not always be mandated that mirrors of heliostats would only point into space, They might at times point to a more local power generator.

I think that is quite a bit.

So, Done for now.

Last edited by Void (2024-06-08 19:57:21)

Void · 2024-06-09 07:40:30

So, of course I don't know if a sufficient focus could be produced in Earth orbit from mirrors on the ground. The atmosphere would attenuate the light and also distort it with thermal layers and clouds and dust.

But what might be the result of reflecting 50% of the light that hits the Sahara Desert into space? That part is interesting, just bouncing light back out of the atmosphere. But with some efforts could some of that light get focused to orbits. Granted, we would be talking about a whole lot of mirrors. But, with robotic manufacturing and perhaps materials from the Moon and perhaps asteroids, it may be more possible than it is now.

Earth and planet Mercury both have magnetic fields that might facilitate thrusting using electrodynamic tethers. Both have surfaces that mirrors could be mounted on. Both may be benefited by cooling methods of light rejection by mirrors on heliostats.

But focus to space are not the only way to increase the rejection of heat. Solar panels and greenhouses may have different characteristics of reaction to sunlight, than desert and vegetation and other surfaces.

I am not sure exactly what the rules of correct use are for this, but this methods to radiate heat off Earth also can be a tool: https://spaceexplored.com/2020/10/07/sc … nto-space/ Quote:

Scientists develop clean cooling method that beams heat into space
Filipe Espósito
| Oct 7 2020 - 8:31 pm PT

So, various places could be altered by these methods. Alpine, Polar, and Temperate Deserts come to mind.

Done for now.

Last edited by Void (2024-06-09 07:56:40)

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