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For SpaceNut re #850
Would you be interested in building one of these CPU's, when Marc is ready for that step.
One build method that occurs to me as we wait for the design to reach assembly stage is the (decidedly ancient) wire wrap method. I remember seeing production equipment made by running wires from prongs under the chip mount surface. I expect the actual wiring is done under computer control, similar to how a 3D Printer moves to position the extrusion head to deliver a dab of liquefied plastic. A wire wrap robot (if any still exist) would move under computer control from one pin to another, stretching an insulated wire between the pins. Using that method, the complexity of dealing with circuit board layout is eliminated entirely.
This design is for a slow, inexpensive, ultra-reliable computer that can be build and maintained on Mars.
Edit#1: I asked Google about 36 bit computers, and since there is quite a history, Google had a lot of citations to offer. A question that pops up (from scanning the citations) is what is the address bus of Marc's design? The size of the address bus determines the amount of physical memory.
In addition, again from a quick scan of the citations, I'm wondering what the word size ... apparently early designs had 6 bit words.
I see a familiar number in the citations ... 32 bit machines have an address space of 4,294,967,296 bytes. Since I have a mix of 32 bit and 64 bit machines, and since FAT formatting is still common on USB devices, I often see a limit of 4 Gb in file size, that can be solved by converting the USB format to NTSF.
I asked Google about 36 bit computers and got 68,719,476,736 as the 36th power of 2. That would imply a 36 bit computer could directly access 68 Gb.
Presumably 36 Gb would be a decent memory capability for a computer for a while.
Another quick check with Google revealed that a high end gaming machine may have 32 Gb of RAM today.
Edit#2: Here is a link to a wire wrap prototyping board (I ** think ** that's what it is)...
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/det … gLXavD_BwE
Edit#3: Here is what I am remembering ... if the image works, it is of a Z80 on a wire-wrap prototyping board:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=htt … AdAAAAABAD
If the link above works for you (forum reader) the article is a story about working on a Z80 prototype and having an intermittent problem caused by a small length of snipped wire wrap wire that fell into the "rat's nest". The comments go on at some length, remembering similar incidents.
I came away with an appreciation for why printed circuit boards became routine and then standard. I've had a single layer (very simple) board made, and noted that the company can make multilayered boards for those who need them.
Still, the first working version of the CPU under development by Marc might well happen on a wire wrap prototyping board.
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Last edited by tahanson43206 (2021-02-26 09:51:36)
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For SpaceNut re ID Recovery ... this post is reserved for progress reports ....
Yesterday was lost due to having to re-learn how to merge projects correctly. I think the RS232 component is now nestled property next to the main program, so I'm hoping it can be modified as needed and then called from the main program. That integration step is all that remains before "live" testing.
I found a system suitable for receiving the output of the program via serial line and capturing the data in binary form, so it can be examined with a hex editor.
Early indications are that the output is now being generated correctly.
Edit#1: So far so good! The procedure to modify the RS232 component is a bit more involved than I had hoped, but it is workable.
The Project is now located "next to" the main program in the same solution. It is necessary to modify the RS232 project independently, and ** then ** copy the modified elements into the main program project, which then compiles with the changes.
I've added a set of Radio Buttons to select the Com port to use, since that varies widely from system to system, and the baud rate.
I like 4800 baud as a nice slow, reliable speed that works just about anywhere. Faster speeds are (apparently) supported by the hardware.
In the afternoon work session, I'll finish configuring the radio buttons and add code to deliver selections to the main program.
There is nothing new in NewMarsMember * gmail.com
Edit#2: I'm putting the program at 97% complete. There is actually (as far as I know) only one more line of code to add, but it is a doozy, because it will call a subroutine in the Microsoft component to deliver passed data to the Com port selected by the operator.
The radio buttons are working, and the subroutine is created. I saved the project and am calling it a day. There are pending chores to take up the rest of the day.
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Last edited by tahanson43206 (2021-02-26 14:57:41)
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I think you would like some of the circuit board prototyping capability that has come available in recent years. I recently did a lot of legwork to help someone pick out equipment for a microelectronics makerspace. It's not lightweight machinery, but I think it's worth sending. I don't anticipate problems soldering on Mars, although fumes should be contained.
The COTS components in this design aren't suitable for sockets, so wire wrap would not be a straightforward solution. There's also a synchronization problem, in that the flip-flops' clock inputs can't be synchronized neatly with the RAM clock inputs. This eats into a 2 nanosecond window before the data we're trying to clock is lost, and wire wrap will be more difficult to control.
There also isn't a very solid ground plane for wire wrap, which I think is going to be rough on a few fronts.
Once I am comfortable with logic, timing, and coverage, assembling the first board should be a breeze. I've already obtained more than 90% of the components that have already been decided on.
I've been planning to use KiCad to route tracks, and I'm not sure whether it will fare well with this many pins. Simply opening a board with the parts placed and dragging them seems to be straining the program. SpaceNut, suggestions? I realize that a commercial CAD tool might help me on one hand, but it would also reduce the architecture's legitimacy as open hardware.
Another image is available now.
Let's talk about RAM. This board will accept at most 8M x 36 bits for data, and 4M x 36 for code, and that's all. SRAM chips don't hold many bits relative to other memory types, especially if they happen to have gull-wing leads that can be hand soldered or checked by flying probe testers after delivery. It's starting to look like I have some extra breathing room for bus timing, so I might be able to double up on the number of RAM chips later.
As for the architecture, I would ordinarily say the address space is 27 bits. This is definitely true for code, because all branches have their destination within the 36-bit instruction. So with a 9-bit opcode, 27 bits are left for where to branch to. For security reasons, there are no indirect branches, so I'm not taking requests to change this. For those who think that a system needs to hold more than 128M words of code, my answer is that 128M is already too many, since there is no sound way to do a security audit on a program that large. (No, you CAN'T automate malware scans, as Henry Gordon Rice proved in 1952. There are, of course, a lot of companies that pretend to do so.)
For the data, I've assumed the address space is 27 bits, but we might bring that up to 36 bits. It's on you to talk someone into making the RAMs, though.
Last edited by marc (2021-02-26 14:06:08)
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For marc re #853 ...
Thank you for clarifying a number of points, including the question of wire wrap ....
May I inquire if it might be time to open a dedicated topic? You are a welcome guest in Housekeeping, but that topic is intended (and is used) primarily for administrative traffic.
You have the ability to create a topic of your choosing, and the moderators are available to help you manage it if you find something contributed that is not a good fit.
I am interested in trying a concept for a parallel topic for folks to make comments without intruding on the flow of the primary topic.
(th)
Last edited by tahanson43206 (2021-02-26 15:02:14)
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Created new topic with collection of posts
Open Source Microprocesor
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For SpaceNut re #855
Bravo! Nice work! I've notified Marc by email.
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This post is reserved for what I hope will be the last update to the program to deliver a stream of characters to a web browser via RS232 port.
Actual implementation of flow to a COM port is scheduled for later today, because of other planned activities.
Edit#1 at 11:17 local time ... The program is complete. We are moving to the live testing and rework phase.
Output to a modem via a COM port on the development PC appeared to be working correctly. The correct number of tabs were generated by the tabbing loop, for example. The next live test will be into a system with the ability to capture data from the COM port and save it in a file for evaluation with a hex editor.
Edit#2: Step-by-step testing: Run was completed (to empty comm port) on a foreign machine ... Run appeared "normal"
Edit#3: Step-by-step testing: Run was completed from laptop to target system running Hyperterminal. Data was captured.
The captured data will be examined using a hex editor shortly. So far, so good ...
(th)
Last edited by tahanson43206 (2021-02-27 11:40:09)
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For SpaceNut re Topic title change request ...
It may not be possible to change the title of a topic, but I'm hoping there might be a way to make the adjustment Marc requested ...
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 74#p177174
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Yes I agree that a broader title is something which could be done but the rename topic function is not installed...
Sorry... giving more work for the web master seems to not be getting responses other than Mars society is looking into any suggestions that are put forth....
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I am now in cellphone mode for a few days....
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For SpaceNut re #860
Thanks for the update on cellphone mode ...
The program is working ... it takes 1 minute and 39 seconds to complete one ID ...
The greater part of that time is spent waiting.
I completed ID's through 2100 this evening. The longest run was a set of 10, after stepping through several to correct errors in the script.
***
For the record, here is the final script:
#Updated 2021/02/27 add Query for Not Verified ID's
Ctrl/L
text:http://newmars.com/forums/admin_users.php?find_user=&order_by=username&direction=ASC&user_group=0&form%5Busername%5D=%2A
Enter:1
Wait:5000
Tab:21
Enter:1
Wait:5000
Tab:22
Text:TestID
Number:5
Tab:1
Text:TestID
Number:5
Text:@test.com
Tab:10
Text:Updated 20210227 by moderator
Enter:1
Wait:5000
Tab:21
Enter:1
Wait:5000
Tab:22
Enter:1
Wait:5000
Tab:1
Text:
Tab:2
Text:Upd: 2021/02/27
Enter:1
Wait:5000
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Last edited by tahanson43206 (2021-02-27 21:44:58)
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For SpaceNut as you enter Cellphone mode ... I'm planning to try a run of 100 ID's today.
Even at that rate, it will take a while to catch up to where we would have been on the original 22 per day schedule.
The bans table is showing TestID02100 as the top entry. I'll try for 2200 in the next run. The query I'm using is:
http://newmars.com/forums/admin_bans.ph … =Testid%2A
Edit#1: For SpaceNut ... starting 100 ID run now (10:26 local time)
Edit#2: The run for 100 ID's just finished at 13:15 or so... Taking times in decimal, 13.3-10.4 >> 2.9 so 2.9 * 60 / 100 >> 1.74 minutes.
That's a time just a bit over what I could do manually by using shortcuts (ie, mouse movements), but the program is not distracted by the names people chose for their fake email accounts. It just kept it's nose to the grindstone, which I was unable to do for more than about 30 minutes at a time.
If it's alright with you, I'll try to complete 100 ID's a day until we run out of Not Verified ID's, which should happen in about 23 days.
(th)
Last edited by tahanson43206 (2021-02-28 12:21:57)
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Thanks for the link as id's 2086 -2100 are complete and back in the user table.
Yesterday we got snow until noon with a rain follow up...can not wait until it's spring
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For SpaceNut re #863
Thanks for taking care of yesterday's back-in-business set of ID's.
It will take just under 3 hours to complete 100 ID's in a single run. Because this is a (really dumb) automation, I'm planning to baby sit the program as it performs it's duty. Fortunately, my reading backlog is good for several years, so I'm actually welcoming the duty.
The display of the process is running on a large screen to my right, and I can see the flash of the pages as they refresh in the corner of my eye, so I can keep track of the progress of the run without having to pay direct attention to it.
The current issue of Analog Science Fact and Fiction arrived yesterday, in an envelope from the USPS … it had been shredded in a sorting machine. We are still getting payback from the era of the previous President, apparently.
The issue contains an article about aging (in humans but possibly other animals as well), and I'm planning to (try to) offer a synopsis after I've finished reading. The author is a noted science writer with a long career in physics, so the reader is in good hands.
The opening section reports on something called the Horvath Clock, which (if I understand correctly) is a mechanism by which the human body's cells switch functions on or off as the organism ages. The author reported that an analysis of his DNA showed a correlation between the aging predicted by the Horvath Clock analysis and his chronological age were in agreement by 2 years.
The hint of a promise in the opening of the article is the possibility that humans might learn how to adjust the clock, but I'm only on page one, so will report back later on how the "story" turns out.
Edit#1: If anyone is interested, the issue with the DNA article is:
Analog Science Fiction & Fact
March/April 2021
Vol CXXXXI Nos. 3 & 4
The Alternate View
John G. Cramer
Page 75
The web site is analogsf.com
They sometimes show content from the current issue as a teaser.
(th)
Last edited by tahanson43206 (2021-02-28 12:25:44)
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Completed 2101 to 2200 unban and move to userlist did not spy any issues.
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For SpaceNut re #865
Thank you for taking care of yesterday's batch! I was worried that 100 might be too many to deal with for your finishing touches. I'll set up another 100 today, and if that goes OK, we can plan for the next 25 days or so to polish off the Not Verified.
I have several items for you to think about today ... no hurry on any of them ...
We still have heard nothing about a secure, accessible repository for the work of GW Johnson, which is accumulating on Google and my hard drive.
I'd like to turn all that work (and more to come if we are lucky) into a tutorial to turn out Journeyman Spacecraft Navigators. The Universe is going to need a lot of these folks in the decades ahead, and the Mars Society is a logical place to look to gain the needed skills. This would NOT be an academic program. If GW Johnson wanted to do that he is more than qualified. I am hoping he will stay on his present course, to develop a program to turn out people who are qualified to pilot/navigate a space craft (manned or unmanned). To accomplish that we are going to need a repository of permanent storage.
The Ballistic Delivery initiative has captured the attention and support of GW Johnson and Calliban. For this initiative I would like to see if we (forum members) can (collectively) prepare and submit a paper to Analog as a Science Fact article. The idea of delivering non-perishable supplies to Mars in the most efficient way possible will (I am hoping) appeal to a significant number of the Analog 100,000 subscriber base, and publishing the article will (should) have the effect of providing greater visibility for the idea itself, and for the Mars Society.
The SPS in LEO project has (by far) the greatest potential to turn into a source of income for the Mars Society. We are in the very early stages of inviting highly qualified individuals to assist with development and refinement of the idea. Because the planet is facing a global crisis of epic proportions, I think the conditions are propitious to bring the idea forward.
Calliban has stated (on numerous occasions and in a variety of ways) that the human race needs to increase the amount of energy available to the inhabitants. I agree with the sentiment, and would like to see the SPS in LEO concept brought forward for serious consideration.
The scope of SPS in LEO is global, unlike SPS in GEO, which could be carried out by one nation to serve one small population.
SPS in LEO has the potential to serve the entire population of the planet, and it needs to be approached as a global enterprise, with close supervision by nations and overall coordination by the United Nations.
Thanks again for tackling all 100 of yesterday's recovered ID's... let me know if you want me to skip a day or to cut back at any point.
On the other hand, steady as she goes works for me.
(th)
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For SpaceNut re ID Recovery ... this post is reserved for updates on today's batch, which I'll set up to run from 2201 to 2300 ...
Starting run at 12:21 local time ... ETA is 15:21 or a little before ...
The run finished. Local time is 15:16.
Edit#1: I'd be interested in how long it takes you to finish these ID's. Hopefully the time required is a LOT less than three hours!
The program runs on Windows, in case you have an application where using it would make sense.
I understand that most of your work requires human judgement, due to the quirky nature of problems.
(th)
Last edited by tahanson43206 (2021-03-01 14:18:02)
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Have started at 18:33 on unban of 2201 through 2300 followed by move to userlist and verification which is now 18:55 as when this is posted.
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For SpaceNut re #868 ... thanks for timing the work on those 100 ID's ...
If you did all that with just a cell phone, I am ** really ** impressed it only took 22 minutes! Bravo!
OK ... I won't worry too much about the jump to 100 ID's ... Today's run went smoothly. I took the chance to leave the baby-sitting post for a few minutes at a time, and the system just seemed willing to keep chugging along. The pauses built into the flow seem to be sufficient.
I'd like to suggest you try to catch a glance at the Horvath Clock article, since it is available online.
(th)
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For SpaceNut re ID recovery ... Starting today's batch 2301-2400 at 8:21 local time
NewMarsMember * gmail.com report: No new traffic
Side note ... Video 62 was by a Russian PhD candidate who talked about using military techniques to prepare habitats. I thought as I listened that this guy might be interested in the Ballistic Delivery project. It would certainly be easier (I would think) to find support for the idea in Russia than might be the case in other nations.
Another side note: The ID processing is underway in another part of the building. I'm able to follow progress using the TestID query.
We are up to 2335 at last check.
Naples Pier is showing 75 degrees Fahrenheit ... there is some light cloud cover ... the visitors on the beach and on the pier are enjoying what appears to be a nice day in Florida. The sea is calm. Waves are only a foot high most of the time.
Update at 11:13 local time .. the run completed.
Edit#1 ... Made changes to the program and ran a test with TestID03030 ...
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Last edited by tahanson43206 (2021-03-02 12:14:30)
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Wind was strong today and knocked out the power this morning arond 11 and the first alert indicator to restore possibly tomorrow 10pm but another one now indicates tonight possibly by 8pm...its 40 inside at this point but will not warm up much until the wind dies down and the sun to come up in the morning.
Device have all received fresh batteries and are all charged for the night while we wait it out. With plenty of blankets....
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For SpaceNut re #871
Best wishes for making it through to spring!
We got up to 50 degrees or so here today, but it'll fall back below freezing overnight.
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The power is back on...yay....
Noticed numbers for id's are missaligning saw its missing 02237 in user list but I think there is one other...02352 also 02332 is as well missing
Not bad for a 2 x. 4 screen...
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For SpaceNut re #873
Thanks for taking care of the latest batch! And! Thanks for noticing the errors. At present, I have no way of knowing at run time if a problem occurs. This is a ** really ** dumb ** simple automation which has no feedback mechanism. Your discovery of errors means that I'm not off the hook to learn how to write directly to a browser and read from it. The book on how to program Chromium was all about ** receiving ** data from Chromium. Perhaps there is a hybrid approach that might allow the Chromium programming language/method to confirm that an update was performed correctly, along with a means of telling the laptop to send the next ID. The Microsoft RS232 component ** does ** have the ability to receive data from the COM port. I'm not using that capability at the moment.
***
Glad to hear the power is back on! Hope it stays on for a while, to put a little bit of heat back into the house, or at least a hot beverage.
This post is reserved for today's batch 2401-2500
Edit#1: I added 2237 [thanks again for noticing it's absence!]
This incident provides a less difficult opportunity to learn a little bit about the Chrome programming language/feature. While trying to achieve a full-feedback loop is daunting, a capability that seems (at this point) a bit more achievable is to create a simple ID audit ...
What that would do is to read the Test ID collection from 00001 to the most recent ID added to the list, and write to a file if any ID's are found missing.
I found "Programming Chrome Apps" at the bottom of a stack and set it out on the table to look at later today.
A simple ID audit might be a good way to dig into this (to me, difficult looking) topic.
Meanwhile, the ** really dumb ** simple automation is slowly improving. Yesterday I fixed the Backspace command (a loop error) and today, if all goes well, I'll add a Date command, so I don't have to keep editing the script for each new day of operation.
Edit#2: The first half of today's batch is completed. I'll run the second half this afternoon.
Edit#3: The second half completed without any error messages. Hoping they are OK.
(th)
Last edited by tahanson43206 (2021-03-03 15:57:06)
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I took care of the other missing 02352 also 02332 and all is well. Remote style programming can be quite difficult. I am back at full capability once more with power and computer.
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