Technology Updates

kbd512 · 2020-05-11 19:34:41

SpaceNut,

Boeing's Phantom Eye drone can go from Heathrow to New York City in just under 21 hours at a cruise speed of 165mph. It uses a pair of Ford 2.3L DuraTec inline four cylinder turbocharged engines tuned to run on H2. However, it also uses LH2 rather than the easier-to-come-by GH2. That Energy Observer yacht has a maximum speed of 12.1mph, so it takes just under 12 days to travel the same distance. A "telling feature" in the article is that the Energy Observer's 1,760kg battery pack provides 100kWh of electricity, whereas the 1,700kg Hydrogen fuel cell and fuel tank and sea water electrolyzer combination weighs 1,700kg and provides 1,000kWh of energy storage (that "magical" order of magnitude improvement in energy density required to replace gasoline).

I'll bet a pair of Toyota fuel cells like the ones in the Energy Observer would easily make Phantom Eye a 200mph aircraft, given the reduction in H2 consumption to sustain a given power level and reduction in drag associated with eliminating the giant radiators used to cool the pair of Ford 4-bangers. Still, it's nice to know that a pair of Ford inline 4's can deliver enough power to cruise at 65,000 feet for several days at a time with a payload equivalent to a pair of passengers in a pressurized cockpit with the consumables they'd require. However, a more practical application would be fuel cells and the LH2 required just to cross the Atlantic at a respectable Cessna 182-like cruise speed.

tahanson43206 · 2020-05-11 19:35:32

For SpaceNut re #132

Thanks for the link to this site.

I see that the device can operate for three immersions in water.

Without seeing the chemistry involved, I can't be sure what is going on.

One thing I am ** sure ** of that this is an example of marketing genius!

The connection between this product and a ** real ** fuel cell is the magic of marketing.

If someone like elderflower could help out, now would be good time.

My guess is that there is a filling that contains chemically stored energy which is activated or released by the presence of water.

This might be a good light to have on hand for emergencies, with the understanding you only get three shots of light.

But that might be all you need.

Edit #1: Here is a glimpse of how the light may be produced in the light SpaceNut found:

Jacuni Water Activated LED Flashlight/Liquid-activated ...www.amazon.com › Jacuni-Activated-Flashlight-Liquid...
Each light comes in a vacuum-sealed bag. It is 100% free of toxic chemical substances. Dispose light unit after the Magnesium ran out of power. Dimensions: 3.4” x ...
Rating: 3.5 - 25 reviews

? Magnesium ran out of power?

Edit#2: Magnesium used in flash powder

Image result for was magnesium used in early flash photography
Early Photographers Used Magnesium Flash Powder to Illuminate Their Photos. When photography was still in its very early days, adding extra light to the images literally meant creating an explosion. ... But eventually, photographers and chemists found out that a magnesium flash mixture would be most effective.
Nov 21, 2014
Early Strobists Used Magnesium Flash Powder

Perhaps the folks who created the chemical light source SpaceNut showed us found a way to generate useful light in a beam, by (somehow) wetting ? magnesium to produce a controlled reaction?

Or perhaps another chemical reaction is at work.

Edit#3: Google found this:

The Hydralight is the world's first water-activated flashlight. Say goodbye to batteries — the Hydralight uses salt water to power its energy cells. This unique, patent pending technology aims to reduce battery waste and provide for an environmentally friendly power source that is both effective and reliable.Aug 3, 2017
The Hydralight is the World's First Water-Activated Flashlight

According to the company web site, the light can only be wetted three times before it is exhausted. The web site hinted that a customer can get more operations by providing less water.

Edit#4: it appears that the use of salt water as an electrolyte goes back to (around) 1800. (It may go back thousands of years)

The key to success is use of two different metals for the electrodes.

https://sciencing.com/making-electricit … 83969.html

The article at the link above, by Ariel Balter, Ph.D., reviews the history and explains how to make a simple version of the original battery.

It would be interesting if the Hydralight were to turn out to be a 2020 version of the 1800 experiments by Alessandro Volta.

Edit#5: The Hydralight patent appears to be for design of various implementations of 200 year old technology.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US9927077B1/en

Combined flashlight and lantern
Abstract
A combined flashlight and lantern can have a light powered by a metal-air fuel cell that runs, or is activated, by water or an electrolyte such as salt water. The combined flashlight and lantern has both flashlight and lantern configurations. In the flashlight configuration, a head with a distal concave reflector is disposed towards a handle with the light in an aperture of the distal concave reflector to direct light axially. The distal concave reflector is opaque to resist light from emitting laterally therefrom. In the lantern configuration, the head with a distal convex reflector is disposed away from the handle and opposing a proximal convex reflector to direct light radially.

The abstract includes the term "fuel cell". This appears to be an application of the term that differs from the "hydrogen fuel cell" concept.

https://www.solar1.org/back-to-the-futu … c-battery/

A colleague recently brought the Hydra Light to our attention, a personal flashlight and charging station that runs on an electrolyte battery. While this design is patent pending, the basic technology behind it is as old- or older- than the pyramids. There is evidence that electrolyte batteries were known in ancient Persia and Egypt, and possibly across the ancient world. The windowless pyramids were lit with electric lights.

A benefit of a battery technology that can be stored for an indefinite period and then activated by addition of water to create an electrolyte is that the deterioration of a battery with active electrolyte is avoided. However, when the battery ** is ** activated, it will have a limited life, as is true of all batteries. What I gather from the company web site is that they anticipate that the owner can drain the water out of the battery and put it back on the shelf for the next emergency, for a total of three activations (or more than three short time activations)

In short, after initial skepticism, I am now persuaded this design may have a place in the emergency preparations list of the far-sighted individual.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-05-11 22:00:18)

kbd512 · 2020-05-11 20:01:26

That "Hydralight" gadget is pretty nifty, but my 100 lumen Lithium-ion powered flashlight is about the size of a pack of chewing gum. Just as there are inappropriate uses for batteries, there are also inappropriate uses for fuel cells. If this was a camping lantern rather than a handheld flashlight, then I could definitely see the utility there, but I see they sell one of those as well. Camping lanterns are generally about the size of that device and need longer run times rather than maximum output. Still, it looks like a better long shelf life alternative to batteries and suitable for lanterns or recharging cell phones. Plus, if the Sun's not out and the wind isn't blowing, then this thing still works (kinda important if you need to place an emergency call). When the Sun is out (only days ending in "y", here in Texas), we just use a rollup solar panel that goes on top of our tents and we recharge our cell phones and cameras that way.

Edit:

Maybe alternative portable emergency generators that produce power after a hurricane when they get wet, instead of crapping out?

Last edited by kbd512 (2020-05-11 20:05:13)

tahanson43206 · 2020-05-12 07:07:59

For kbd512 ... Thank you for your continued contributions to this subtopic, which SpaceNut threw at us more or less out of the blue.

I believe the marketing team at the Hydralight company knew they were mis-using the term "fuel cell" but did so because it would catch consumer interest, and hopefully increase sales.

My objection to the use of the term is that there is NO fuel (such as hydrogen) being introduced to the battery. What ** is ** being introduced is a liquid from which to make an electrolyte. All the chemistry needed to generate electricity appears to be present inside the case of the device. Specifically there would appear to be two different metals present, and some sodium chloride in dried form.

Upon introduction of water to the device (I am assuming) an electrolyte comes into being inside the device, and electrochemical reactions begin, moving electrons through the electrolyte from one electrode to the other.

It is for ** that ** reason I object to the use of the term "fuel cell".

A "fuel cell" (as I understand the term) is a device that accepts chemical inputs ** FROM THE OUTSIDE ** and employs clever technology (ie, catalysts) to facilitate chemical reactions that produce electricity with an output delivered to the outside. In the case of hydrogen and oxygen as inputs, the output is water.

There is NO chemical output (as nearly as I can tell) from the "Hydralight" product.

The device itself may be useful, and it may be worth having as an emergency light source, but (to my way of thinking) it is NOT a fuel cell.

Wikipedia offers this:

Fuel cell
Description
A fuel cell is an electrochemical cell that converts the chemical energy of a fuel and an oxidizing agent into electricity through a pair of redox reactions. Wikipedia

Since we don't have one of the "Hydralight" devices to examine, we can only speculate at this point. However, if the device is based upon the discovery of Volta in 1800, then current flows because of the difference in properties of two metals, and NOT because of oxidation of a fuel.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-05-12 07:09:21)

SpaceNut · 2020-05-12 08:07:16

I came to that same conclusion when I first saw this on a Walmart shelf for the fuel cell term being used. Its just not correct as you put it to blur the terms.

As far as the 100-Foot Catamaran using hydrogen I would say that again using the ocean is just a cheat for temporary storage of a fuel and the atmosphere to create power if they are using a fuel cell.

We did talk about the process which is in your post 131 in one of the other topics.

So long as there is no free hydrogen or free energy we are sort of stuck changing over to any of the alternative fuels that contain no carbon.

kbd512 · 2020-05-12 10:08:42

tahanson43206,

You're correct. The "Hydralight" is not an actual fuel cell. It's a battery with the electrolyte removed. The "fuel cell" moniker is just marketing hype. Since the Hydralight "fuel cell" is sealed inside the body of the flashlight using a rubber o-ring, it's almost certainly not using a redox reaction. That said, even a real methanol-based or metal hydride-based fuel cell would generally be inappropriate for small handheld devices such as flashlights and cell phones, on account of the need for exposure to the environment to obtain the Oxygen required to produce electricity. A powerful handheld search / spot light or a lantern might be a candidate for an actual fuel cell. In general, fuel cells are something you'd use for stationary applications like generators or mounted to vehicles. All practical fuel cells I'm aware of react Oxygen with Hydrogen, Ammonia, Methane, Propane, Methanol, or some other chemical commonly used as a fuel in combustion engines.

The EFOY Comfort direct methanol fuel cell, a real commercial product, can use 8.4kg / 10L / 2.64 US gallon methanol jugs that contain enough methanol fuel to supply 11.1kWh worth of electricity. That equates to an energy density of 1,321Wh/kg. The EFOY 210 model fuel cell itself weighs 8.5kg. That does lower the effective energy density of the entire solution, but adding additional jugs of methanol rapidly outstrips the energy density of any battery-based solution, to include military and aerospace single use / primary type batteries.

The Tesla batteries store 250Wh/kg, not including any packaging or control electronics. The Tesla Model 3's 75kWh battery pack weighs 1,054 pounds (a pair of 191 pound packs and another pair of 207 pound packs), not including the control electronics and power conversion equipment. Approximately 18 gallons of methanol would provide 75kWh worth of energy using EFOY's fuel cell and it would weigh 126 pounds. Therefore, the Tesla solution is more than 8 times as heavy for equivalent energy density. The weight of batteries is a deal breaker for both aircraft and heavy transport vehicles that have strict weight limits imposed by simple physics and/or roadway gross vehicle weight rating limitations.

I would like to point out that fuel cells and electric motors are merely providing equivalent performance to piston engines and gas turbines up to about 2MW or so (in practical designs intended for practical applications). Beyond that range, current state-of-the-art fuel cell designs are inferior to the larger / higher efficiency gas turbine engines in terms of power-to-weight. However, the number of vehicles (to wit, only very large aircraft and rockets; cargo ships are far less mass-sensitive than aircraft) that require that superior performance is also quite small. Virtually all land vehicles (even heavy trucks and main battle tanks) and most aircraft (apart from continental or intercontinental airliners), by numbers, would achieve equivalent or better performance per pound of fuel expended when the total propulsion system mass is considered. Since weight drives all propulsion system requirements, the performance advantage is not inconsequential when applied at a global scale.

For me, this is about moving electric propulsion from the realm of barely achievable or utterly impossible to the practical and equivalent to gasoline / diesel / kerosene realm with pollution and maintenance reduction benefits. Whereupon batteries achieve a full order of magnitude increase in energy density for a given weight, then all the presently fanciful ideas about how they could be used will swiftly become engineering reality, but not a moment before then. There's no point in daydreaming about the glittering world of tomorrow when we can implement current fuel cell technology to achieve most of the potential benefits of electrification while meeting the mass and volume constraints that modern propulsion solutions are expected to meet.

Edit:

Sorry, should have said pair of "modules" in reference to the pairs of 191 and 207 pound modules comprising Tesla 75kWh battery pack.

Last edited by kbd512 (2020-05-12 10:15:05)

tahanson43206 · 2020-05-12 11:37:52

For kbd512 ... re Post#138

Thank you for your very nice wrapup of the subtopic SpaceNut created by picking up on the "fuel cell" marketing hype for the emergency battery light.

The success of the marketing ploy is demonstrated by the series of posts we have devoted to it. These posts will remain in place for as long as the Mars Society is willing to keep the power on. Google and other search engines may turn up the discussion when someone enters a search for the product.

In short, I think this was time reasonably well invested by each of us.

The larger view, of increased and efficient use of fuel cell technology to move the economy along, is one which you've been working on for some time.

Post #138 was a helpful addition to the series.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2020-05-13 21:28:50

For SpaceNut ... this item could go right into the Wutan topic .... I'm putting it here because this really ** is ** cutting edge technology!

https://www.yahoo.com/news/harvard-mit- … 00598.html

Business Insider
Harvard and MIT researchers are developing a face mask that lights up when it detects the coronavirus
insider@insider.com (Aria Bendix)
Business InsiderMay 13, 2020, 3:42 PM UTC

The team is developing a face mask that produces a fluorescent signal when a person with the coronavirus breathes, coughs, or sneezes. If the technology proves successful, it could address flaws associated with other screening methods like temperature checks.

A Shanghai laboratory sequenced the coronavirus genome in January. Collins said his sensors only need to identify a small segment of that sequence to spot the virus. Once they do, they give off a fluorescent signal within one to three hours.
That signal isn't visible to the naked eye, so Collins' lab uses a device called a flourimeter to measure the fluorescent light. Outside the lab, he said, public officials could use handheld flourimeters — which Collins said "cost about a dollar" — to scan people's masks.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2020-05-15 04:43:37

For SpaceNut ... the article at the link below reports on advances in understanding of chemical bonds in chemistry...

The research has been going on for several decades, since a third kind of chemical bond was discovered in a molecule including fluorine.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/type-chemica … 36221.html

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2020-05-18 11:44:30

This "technology update" is offered in connection with discussion of an inverse electromagnet launcher in the Phobos Balloon topic.

The investigation initiated was to try to find any connection between Carbon (fewer baryons than Iron) and magnetism Google came up with some research into producing magnetic materials using buckyballs.

https://www.metalsupermarkets.com/which … -magnetic/

(th)

SpaceNut · 2020-05-20 19:33:55

We have talked about microwaved beamed power but what about using Lasers?
Laser-powered rover to explore Moon's dark shadows

ESA's Discovery and Preparation program funded the design of a laser system to keep a rover supplied with power from up to 15 km away while it explores some of these dark craters. This lander would host a solar-powered 500-watt infrared laser, which it would keep trained on a 250 kg rover as it entered the shadowed regions. The rover would convert this laser light into electrical power using a modified version of a standard solar panel, with photodiodes on the sides of the panel keeping it locked onto the laser down to centimeter-scale accuracy.

http://www.esa.int/Enabling_Support/Spa … Technology

tahanson43206 · 2020-05-20 20:48:38

For SpaceNut re #143

Nice addition to this topic!

That's a clever way of sending power in a vacuum. The efficiency of the system may be better than a similar system in the optical spectrum.

A benefit of any uncollected radiation is that it would (presumably) serve to maintain a warm temperature of the body of the rover.

Now I'll go read the article << grin >>

(th)

elderflower · 2020-05-23 14:49:43

The drawback is that you are limited to line of sight working. You are limited to that anyway for communication by radio but it is much easier to have an extending aerial than to do the same with a large steerable panel.

tahanson43206 · 2020-05-24 03:09:44

For elderflower re #145

Thanks for your contribution to this topic!

Your observation about the need to plan for occasional power outages seems (to me at least) well founded.

As a suggestion, a rover powered by a direct power transmission system (infrared, microwave or radio) could be equipped with batteries.

If direct power feed is lost, the programming in the device could be written to backtrack to the last location where power was available.

The ability to operate for as much as an hour without energy input from a remote supplier would be helpful.

My understanding is that the Chinese rover has demonstrated the ability to hibernate for the length of the Lunar night, so some version of that capability would be useful if back tracking does not produce a favorable outcome.

In addition, the rover ** could ** be programmed to operate for some period without direct energy input while transitioning to another location where direct feed would be possible.

A top-of-the-line recovery capability would be to be able to navigate all the way back to home base if contact with the power source is lost.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-05-24 03:10:18)

tahanson43206 · 2020-05-24 03:31:44

This post is to thank Void for finding and showing an Oxygen separation system that uses solid state components.

The post itself is:

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 80#p168480

This one could be a thing I have wanted for some time:
https://technology.nasa.gov/patent/LEW-TOPS-85
Pressurized Oxygen via Solid Oxide Electrolysis
Small, simple device produces pure, dry, pressurized oxygen

Because of the current virus epidemic on Earth, I've been interested in attempts to clean air before allowing it into the lungs of humans.

The announcement quoted by Void does say the system could be used in a portable breathing apparatus (a space suit)

Originally conceived as a method to generate pressurized pure oxygen for extravehicular activity (EVA) suits worn on the International Space Station, Glenn's technology represents a significant breakthrough.

The apparatus would (presumably) still need some kind of supplementary pumping mechanism (I would imagine) to circulate air in a space suit, or a hazmat suit on Earth.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-05-24 03:37:45)

tahanson43206 · 2020-05-25 09:53:51

The article at the link below reports on scientific/engineering experiments to build new island mass by harnessing wave action.

While the purpose of the work appears to be primarily to help island populations whose homes are being inundated, it seems to me there might be some potential application for the technology in protecting vulnerable shorelines, such as around the Gulf of Mexico.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/extraordinar … 00297.html

(th)

SpaceNut · 2020-05-25 10:40:24

The technology for oxygen are depending on the starting source, energy to make the process work for the content of post #148.
One starts with freezing out the co2 from the air before electrolysis of it is performed to make co and oxygen; while the other pressurizes and does high temperature electrolysis from a fuel cell approach as in MOXIE.
Key to both is energy levels available to make it happen.

tahanson43206 · 2020-05-25 11:13:26

For SpaceNut re #149

You may have found something in the article about the NASA Glenn work that I missed.

Could you please quote the text where it is suggested that freezing is involved? You might well be right. For sure I missed it.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2020-05-25 13:23:50

Your right its not in that linked page.
Normal co2 levels are to low to directly put into the system.
One must concentrate the co2 some how, so as to achieve a higher inlet pressure to the unit.
Oxygen temperature of 600c at the outlet is also in need of cooling...

tahanson43206 · 2020-05-25 15:27:49

For SpaceNut ... does the article call for concentrating the input gases?

What I'm wondering is if there is an old way of doing this, and the importance of the new technology is not apparent.

Ideally, the new technology (solid state processing) does not require any mechanical activity prior to input.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2020-05-25 16:14:03

Think of you face mask as the solid membrane in which you must pull the atmosphere through the membrane...

https://sbir.nasa.gov/content/solid-oxi … rolyzers-0
https://sbir.nasa.gov/content/solid-oxi … rolyzers-1
https://sbir.gsfc.nasa.gov/content/fuel … plications
https://www.nasa.gov/spacetech/strg/2013_xue.html

https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2009J … E/abstract
https://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/isru9 … RIDHAR.PDF
OXYGEN PRODUCTION ON MARS USING SOLID OXIDE ELECTROLYSIS. K. R. Sridhar

https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/multimedia/videos/?v=417
Crazy Engineering: Making Oxygen on Mars with MOXIE | Mars …

https://www.oxeonenergy.com/moxie
The NASA Mars 2020 mission will land a Curiosity class rover on Mars with a set of seven new science instruments. One of these instruments, MOXIE, the Mars Oxygen ISRU

https://oxeonenergy.com/projects/redox- … ir-phase-2

tahanson43206 · 2020-05-26 08:12:47

For SpaceNut re #153

This post is reserved for notes after study of all (or at least some) of those links. I took a quick look at the "Crazy Engineering" and "Sridhar" links.

It appears (from that first quick look) that mechanical systems **will** be needed to supplement the solid state technology.

What I would be looking for (in the longer term) is a completely solid state solution.

That term "solid state" is a bit misleading, since what is being described is furious activity at the quantum level.

A fully expressed solid state breathing gas supply system will pull whatever it needs from the intake and discard the rest, and supply a safe mixture of gases to the output.

I expect to learn that "Are we there yet?" hasn't happened.

SearchTerm:SolidStateAirSupply

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2020-05-26 10:34:26

This post is from a tech newsletter .... it pertains to the (to me important) subject of teleoperation.

Teleoperation has been thought of as a way of remotely operating probes away from Earth, but there have been several successful implementations on Earth, including in providing medical care.

The provision of tactile feedback is important for effectiveness, so this report seems to indicate that progress is being made.

Low-cost microscope is 3D-printed

Gloves help surgeons control robotic fingers during remote surgery
Researchers have found that delivering small buzzes of electrical currents to the glove fingertips can allow surgeons to accurately understand the location of robotic fingertips during remote, robotic-assisted surgery.

I expect that telepresence businesses will become as ubiquitous as PC companies are today.

The 3D printing headline got caught in my copy swipe. It is interesting on its own, but I'm doubtful the optical lens is included in the print.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-05-26 10:36:10)

SpaceNut · 2020-05-26 16:49:49

How about the bionic eye ball that is being developed....Would make AI robots a bit more chilling to realize that its not human once close enough to converse with it....

Robot barristers are being employed for restaurants service of customers to lower risk of infection to employees and customer alike.

I started to explore the mars society pages and locate the links for conference papers
http://www.marspapers.org/#/papers

tahanson43206 · 2020-05-31 10:02:56

Can/would someone evaluate this product.

It strikes me that the ability to clean water in an emergency, or all the time in some parts of the world, is something worth having.

However, I am skeptical of the claims of effectiveness.

https://www.sciplus.com/portable-water- … =New+items

(th)

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#126 2020-05-11 19:34:41

Re: Technology Updates

#127 2020-05-11 19:35:32

Re: Technology Updates

#128 2020-05-11 20:01:26

Re: Technology Updates

#129 2020-05-12 07:07:59

Re: Technology Updates

#130 2020-05-12 08:07:16

Re: Technology Updates

#131 2020-05-12 10:08:42

Re: Technology Updates

#132 2020-05-12 11:37:52

Re: Technology Updates

#133 2020-05-13 21:28:50

Re: Technology Updates

#134 2020-05-15 04:43:37

Re: Technology Updates

#135 2020-05-18 11:44:30

Re: Technology Updates

#136 2020-05-20 19:33:55

Re: Technology Updates

#137 2020-05-20 20:48:38

Re: Technology Updates

#138 2020-05-23 14:49:43

Re: Technology Updates

#139 2020-05-24 03:09:44

Re: Technology Updates

#140 2020-05-24 03:31:44

Re: Technology Updates

#141 2020-05-25 09:53:51

Re: Technology Updates

#142 2020-05-25 10:40:24

Re: Technology Updates

#143 2020-05-25 11:13:26

Re: Technology Updates

#144 2020-05-25 13:23:50

Re: Technology Updates

#145 2020-05-25 15:27:49

Re: Technology Updates

#146 2020-05-25 16:14:03

Re: Technology Updates

#147 2020-05-26 08:12:47

Re: Technology Updates

#148 2020-05-26 10:34:26

Re: Technology Updates

#149 2020-05-26 16:49:49

Re: Technology Updates

#150 2020-05-31 10:02:56

Re: Technology Updates

Board footer