Testing My Hacienda On Mars Society Devon Island

tahanson43206 · 2019-09-27 21:00:54

For RobertDyck re #43

Made time to get back to your post.... Found it using search for "dream" and "house"

If you ever get around to adding a tag, I think "fireproof" would be appropriate.

Thanks for providing a lot of helpful tips in a concise package.

I like the idea of building to boat standards. Such standards would be appropriate for regions subject to flooding as sea levels rise.

Something you did not mention is designing for flotation stability, but I recognize that was not the primary design criteria for this post.

If you were to design again, I'd appreciate your considering using 3D printing technology. Examples of large structures fabricated using 3D printing exist around the world. Your use of concrete in Post #43 would be compatible with an extrusion process. Your use of steel and other metals implies to me a hybrid construction practice, with human intervention as needed, along with automation where that makes sense.

All in all, your design comes across to me as reasonably weather proof, if the weather is just wind with rain, or a moderate fire. At the moment the design does not appear to be capable of withstanding floods, but you are SO close! Perhaps you'll include that feature next time.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2019-09-27 21:12:07

In post #43, RobertDyck has laid out specifications for a sturdy home which should be well suited for a northern climate on Earth.

This topic provides an opportunity for designers to consider the challenges of building on Devon Island (assuming the necessary permissions are secured), to the standard that would be needed on Mars.

That means (in the context of the My Hacienda topic elsewhere) that all living and working spaces will be under ground. Spaces with a view of the outside terrain are anticipated, with the proviso that they will be topped with enough mass to shield from radiation.

In recent days, as the Sun continues its march South (as seen from my latitude) I've been thinking about how enjoyable it is to have "live" sunlight pouring through windows and providing views of living things outside, including trees, grass and other plants, squirrels and birds, and the occasional neighborhood cat.

Elsewhere in the forum archives, I recall Louis calling for providing homelike vistas for humans living away from Earth, and others have addressed this need as well.

I vision that comes to mind is an arrangement of living tunnels projecting out from a central courtyard, like spokes from a wheel hub, so that residents have a view of the "outside" from the front window of their personal living space.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-09-27 21:16:12)

RobertDyck · 2019-09-27 23:14:56

tahanson43206, this house is designed first and foremost for the city where I live: Winnipeg. We're technically not on Canadian Shield, but very close. No earthquakes; the closest fault is the Brandon Fault, roughly 250km away, it hasn't moved in over 30 million years, and has no stress so will not move for many more tens of millions of years. It's very flat; I know what it's like to live at the bottom of a dried-up sea, this city is the bottom of Lake Agassiz. That lake existed at the end of the last ice age, as the ice sheet melted. Very flat, no mud slides. It's thousands of kilometres away from the nearest ocean coast, no hurricanes. There are trees, basically Winnipeg is an elm forest, but it's surrounded by prairie. Patches of forest are broken by what was prairie but is now farms, no forest fires. We don't have many of the disasters other places have, but we do have winter every year, and floods every spring.

The Red River flows northward, it's the eastern border of North Dakota with Minnesota. It flows through downtown Winnipeg, continuing north until it empties into Lake Winnipeg. In spring as the ice melts, North Dakota and Minnesota will have melted with melt water filling the river as the river north of Winnipeg is still frozen. It isn't a question whether the river floods, but how badly. Water rises in the river channel, normally this causes the water to rise dramatically but remain within the river's banks. Sometimes it overflows, causing massive flooding. Wikipedia: Red River floods. When it doesn't flood that badly, often basements flood. Frozen ground cannot absorb water, but melting snow releases a lot of water. Sewers overwhelmed so basements drain back up. A check valve can prevent water from backing up into a house basement, but that seals the drain so melt water from weeping tile or cracks in the basement flood the basement.

That's why I want a house basement built as a boat. So when spring melt water surrounds the house at least to ground level. I've helped pile sandbags around a co-workers house, with water filling his yard 3 feet deep. My design would make the house a boat to the roof line. Door frames and window frames sealed to the concrete. A strong door. All houses have weather stripping, which is an air-tight seal around the house. When weather outside in winter is between -20°C and -40°C, cold will infiltrate any crack. Houses here are sealed air tight, but not pressure tight. Well, sealed against a very slight pressure difference. I want exterior doors sealed water tight, so they can keep out flood waters.

In 1992 my house was broken into 4 times. Actually the 4th time was 1993. I installed a concealed video security system, positioned so if the criminal took the same stuff he would stick his face right in the camera. It worked. I also replaced the side door with a heavy steel door that has no window, just a peephole (door viewer). The door wasn't installed by the 4th break-in, but the security system was. Crime Stoppers said it was the first time they used real video, not a re-enactment. Neighbours recognized the criminal. The public prosecutor took a TV and VCR down to the jail cell, showed him the video and asked if he wants to confess now. His lawyer got him 2 years in a federal penitentiary and he served every day of it. No one broke into my house ever again, but my garage and vehicle have been broken into. I want this house to be secure! But the previous provincial government passed a provincial law banning armoured houses. The reason was gangs, but the wording says security bars are illegal. Video rental stores still had them, until they became obsolete. Jewellery stores still have them. A restaurant with lounge near my house was broken into repeatedly, all the booze stolen, until they installed security bars. But the provincial law against armoured buildings says those security bars are illegal. I don't know a case where someone was prosecuted for security bars, but it's a threat. One excuse is first responders (fire fighters) must be able to get in. So I designed the house to be fireproof; firefighters don't need to get in. Criminals will always be able to break in more easily than firefighters. If first responders can get in, then criminals can get in even more easily.

You want this topic to be focused on Devon Island as an analog for Mars. There won't be any firefighters or police there. The nearest community is the hamlet of Resolute, formerly known as Resolute Bay. To Haughton Crater it's 400km away by air. A home there must be self-sufficient. Crime may not be an issue now, with only FMARS and HMP, but once you build a village with rich homes, it will be. Yes, even that far away. So security and fire protection are relevant.

Protection from cold is also relevant. Devon Island weather statistics, February daily high -29.0°C, daily low -35.8°C. July daily high +7.3°C, daily low +1.7°C. As a comparison Winnipeg, January (coldest month) daily high -13.4°C, daily low -23.9°C. July daily high +25.7°C, daily low +12.9°C. But those are averages, the coldest temperature in Winnipeg last January was -40°C, real temperature, not windchill. Record low for Resolute is -62.0°C, record high +20.1°C. You won't have to worry about air conditioning, but heat will be an issue.

I have not considered 3D printing a house because it's a cheap trick. The extruded concrete homes built by a 3D printer have no insulation at all. The 3D printer cannot place electrical wiring, electrical boxes, outlets, switches, light fixtures, heating ducts, cold air return ducts, etc. For Winnipeg (or a northern location that has winter) you could pre-assemble walls at a factory, then assemble on-site. That would be far more practical. A simple Google showed that some companies do manufacture flat pack homes. "Flat pack" meaning the walls are laid flat on a flatbed truck for delivery to the construction site. IKEA makes flat-pack furniture, these are flat-pack houses. Actually, IKEA itself is one of the companies that fabricate flat-pack houses. A lot more practical for northern climates that require insulation and heating. But my idea is more sturdy. I didn't invent the idea of ICF; my modification is to use silicone resin foam instead of Styrofoam. A solid concrete wall instead of bolted together panels allows it to be water proof (flood proof) as well as secure. And yes, flooding in spring will be an issue on Devon Island, when snow melts but the ground is still frozen.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2019-09-28 17:16:44)

RobertDyck · 2019-09-28 00:36:08

tahanson43206 wrote:

I like the idea of building to boat standards. Such standards would be appropriate for regions subject to flooding as sea levels rise.
Something you did not mention is designing for flotation stability, but I recognize that was not the primary design criteria for this post.

According to NOAA, sea level is rising at 3.2mm per year. That's 3.2cm per decade, or 9.6cm over the next 30 years. That's equal to 3 3/4 inches.
Here are a couple charts. From 1993-2012 showing an average 3.18 mm/year.

This one is from 1993-2017 showing 3.1 ±0.4 mm/year.

This one from 1993-2013 shows 3.2 mm/year.
sea-level-rise-by-2100-could-be-double-previous-estimates-scientists-predict.jpg

tahanson43206 wrote:

All in all, your design comes across to me as reasonably weather proof, if the weather is just wind with rain, or a moderate fire. At the moment the design does not appear to be capable of withstanding floods, but you are SO close!

Perhaps you come from somewhere south. When I lived in a suburb of Richmond Virginia, a real estate agent couldn't understand why a house would have a basement unless the basement was a drive-in garage. Houses in Miami Florida didn't have a basement, but their climate is even warmer and their ground doesn't allow it. Soil depth ranges from less than 5 inches to several feet; under that is solid coral. You can't dig a basement because it would require blasting. Here a basement is required. Houses built on a concrete pad experience "heaving". In winter as the ground freezes, the frozen moist soil expands. That expansion is never even. If soil freezes beneath the foundation or concrete pad, it will lift the house unevenly causing it to crack. Houses built on a pad break in winter, often the crack extends from floor to ceiling and so wide you can see daylight. When weather is below -30°C, that makes the house very difficult if not impossible to heat. Foundation must be dug at least 4 feet below grade. A basement is usually much deeper, allowing you to stand. When a house with a full basement is flooded, flotation is not an issue because the house will be embedded within the soil. And here soil beneath a few inches of top soil is black clay called Manitoba gumbo. In fact construction regulations require firm soil, require clay. You're not allowed to build a house on loose soil.

Tall tower buildings in Winnipeg sit on piles driven down to bedrock. They aren't going to settle, nor float away.

Devon Island has permafrost. This provides different issues. A building such as a house is usually built on piles, and wind allowed to flow through the underside. That's because melting permafrost could cause the house to sink into the ground. Construction on Mars will be buried, so we can use regolith for radiation shielding. Ideal is to build the same on Devon Island, but a heated building could sink into permafrost. InSight wasn't able to drive it's heat probe more than 30cm deep. Will Mars have the same permafrost issue?

Last edited by RobertDyck (2019-09-28 01:32:24)

tahanson43206 · 2019-09-28 06:39:01

For RobertDyck re recent posts ...

Thank you for your substantial contributions to this topic. This is just an acknowledgement. I'm inspired with questions and observations for later.

Just one quick note ... The housing location which (I think) would benefit from building to boat standards is Houston, where a friend lives. There are many other locations where previously unimaginable floods are becoming routine. Your sturdy design for a Northern climate could be adapted to Southern locations. The house for those locations needs to be able to rise as flood waters arrive, while holding position against wave and wind, just as moored boats try to do. It might be prudent for home dwellers to move while the house fends for itself, but experience shows many people cannot or will not move, so design for resilience in the face of the conditions of a hurricane such as Harvey would be helpful.

Your mention of building codes in your city is relevant. The building codes in locations such as Houston will (most likely but not guaranteed) adapt to changing challenges. Human nature being what it is, the lag between obvious need and grudging acceptance is often measured in years.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2019-09-28 14:47:38

In 2005 New Orleans was hit with a 1-2 punch from Hurricanes Katrina and Rita. FEMA took an insane amount of time to respond. The only country to provide aid was Canada. After Katrina, Canada sent 3 Navy ships: one destroyer, two frigates, and a large coast guard vessel. Realize Canada only had 3 destroyers at the time, 12 frigates. Each destroyer carried 2 Sea King helicopters, and each destroyer carried one; the same model as "Marine One", the helicopter that transports the president from the White House. Since then Canadian Navy ships have replaced their helicopters with a newer model. The Coast Guard Ship carried one BO-105 helicopter. These helicopters were used to evacuate citizens during the flood. And every ship has desalination equipment to make potable water from sea water, bottles of that water were provided to New Orleans evacuees. More details...
Wikipedia: Canadian response to Hurricane Katrina

When disaster happens, government officials try to tell people to evacuate, abandon their homes and belongings. However, government officials make no attempt to protect individual's homes or belongings, and never replace what is lost or destroyed. It's up to individuals to protect their own things. Those calling for evacuation are trying to ensure maximum damage so they can sell more stuff. Government financial aid usually never arrives, when it does it's woefully inadequate, and insurance companies often refuse to settle. This may sound Machiavellian, but it's true. During ancient Rome one senator built the world's first fire department. It wasn't paid by the government of Rome, it was privately owned. When the fire department arrived at a house fire, they would not start work, instead stand by watching. The senator would ask the homeowner to sign over ownership of his home to the senator, from that point on the homeowner would have to pay the senator rent. If the homeowner refused, the senator ordered his men to do nothing, just watch the house burn down. This was the first fire department, and inspired later government fire departments. But government officials today are seen as no more altruistic nor philanthropic than that Roman senator. They're out to screw people. It's up to the homeowner to protect his own property. So in most cases, evacuation is stupid.

That said, Katrina did affect many NASA employees and contractors who worked at the Michoud Assembly Facility in Louisiana. That's where external tanks for Shuttle were made. My advice on this forum was anyone who's home was destroyed, do not rebuild at the same location. Instead build a new home inland, somewhere that won't flood when a full-force category 5 hurricane hits and all levees fail. I even provided a map. NASA employees and contractors tend to be smart people, they followed this advice.

I lived in Miami Florida from the beginning of June 1999 until the end of March 2000. I looked up the evacuation zone and deliberately chose an apartment outside that zone. I asked for an apartment on the 3rd floor or higher, the manager told me the only one available was the 9th floor. Ok! And when hurricane Floyd arrived in September 1999, I moved my car to an upper floor of the parking structure. I intended to not park on the roof, but the parking structure had a sports facility on the roof anyway, no parking. That meant a concrete deck above my car, but my car was high enough that storm surge could not damage it. I did this again for hurricane Irene, October 1999. Floyd was "very strong category 4", just 2mph short of category 5, but turned last minute, we in Miami only caught an edge of it. Irene went right over my head, but it was only category 2. You have to prepare for whatever disasters happen at your location.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2019-09-28 16:50:15)

SpaceNut · 2019-09-28 16:26:04

Large screen TV in a window shaped frame that plays a loop of mars weather colorized to make you think you are on earth complete with day night cycles and storms..maybe even winter snow scenes..

So how do we go next step from the toehold base that we have on the island when we are not capable of doing this on earth were we have oxygen and water which are energy expenditures for mars that we seem to be uncapable of doing.....

tahanson43206 · 2019-09-28 20:01:36

For SpaceNut re #57 and the topic in general ...

I like the concept underlying your vision of a "window" based on high definition television images to give a sense of the outside world to someone living in a tunnel or other volume without a direct view of the outside. I have a friend who set up a computer with four screens for work activities, but when not using the screens for work, they are set to show scenes from web cams around the world. There are an amazing number of such webcams. Most offer periodic image refresh, but some offer live streaming. My sense of the experience is that the viewer can imagine being in the locations shown easily enough. Some even offer sound, but that is rare.

Looking forward a bit .... packages of webcasts of particular views of scenes on Earth could be compressed and shipped out to remote locations to be played in delayed "real" time, just as would be done with sports broadcasts and other video which might be of interest to humans in remote locations.

However, the heart of post #57 is your question of how the subject of this topic might be realized. I've tried to address that in earlier posts, but recognize that the ideas need to be collected and organized if they are going to be persuasive. I'll think about how that might best be done.

In the mean time, I think the key concept is that the Earth now has a population of people wealthy enough to be able to fund projects that appeal to them. Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos are the first two names that come to mind, followed closely by Bill and Melinda Gates. There are thousands of others around the planet who are in a position to fund projects that interest them, without needing an economic justification. They've paid their dues by developing economic activities which DID generate income, so funding a trip around the Moon (as just one example) is something they are free to do without having to worry about paying back a funder.

I am seeing the My Hacienda project as funded by 2750 people like that, with the caveat that the technologies that would be needed to achieve the objective would themselves be patentable, and valuable to society on Earth in all sorts of ways.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2019-09-28 20:31:00

Louis would say for mars solar is the energy answer but after you see what we get from the panel on earth versus mars the site of devon is a perfect learning curve for how many and how to cutdown on energy use that is not critical for survival. For a 300 to 400 w panel we only get 120 to 170 w levels for mars and if we do the same testing which gets that results on devon island which is said to be the same, we then can do the work required to test with the correct energy levels as if we were on mars.
We then would do the same to hone in with life support numbers which are critical to figure the correct mass for the landing on mars from the work.

RobertDyck · 2019-09-28 22:01:39

The key issue I raised in my last post is permafrost. And I raised the temperature probe on InSight because Mars appears to have the exact same problem. This is good, sort of. It means Mars is less alien than we thought. Although it has actic problems that many from the south are not familiar with.

A modern house built in the arctic is built on piles raised above ground. You do not want the heat of the house to enter the ground. If it does, that will cause permafrost beneath the house to melt. The weight of the house will then squish the liquid mud out of the way causing the house to sink. A modern house is built like this...

Or this...

If you don't leave a gap to allow cold air beneath the house, it will end up like...

Or this..

We have discussed a buried house on Mars, or dug into a hillside. How do we resolve the permafrost problem? How much ground moisture does Mars have? Is the ground permafrost?

tahanson43206 · 2019-09-29 07:06:05

For SpaceNut following up on #58

A science fiction story that stayed with me, although it read it years ago, is built around the concept of "slow glass".

I bring this up in the context of your interesting suggestion of a "window" looking out on a scene that might be captured from Earth or Mars.

Your ideas came forcibly to mind this morning, when I looked out the kitchen window and realized that if the window pane were "slow glass" the scene would be just as interesting and meaningful to me, and I wouldn't be aware that the actual scene outside the window might be a brick wall.

As presented in the story, "slow glass" is a (hypothetical so far as I know) material that absorbs photons just like an ordinary pane of glass, and transmits them through the pane to the other side where they are released, just as happens now with ordinary glass. However, during the transit through "slow glass" the speed of light is reduced far below the already reduced rate we can observe today in ordinary glass.

As I recall the story, the slow glass in that instance was good for a number of years, and the story was built around the solution of a mystery of some kind that involved events that took place in the view of the slow glass "baking" site.

In the story, slow glass was "loaded up" with ten years of visual history and sold to buyers in city towers who had no access to windows.

In this country, and perhaps others as well, we already have large numbers of housing situations with no outside view, or with a very limited view. Thus, I expect that there would be a market for "slow glass" in 2019.

Your post (as I recall it) envisioned what I read as a large high density LED screen, able to recreate visual images of the outside world with high fidelity.

Such images are often on display at a local mall, where huge television screens are on offer.

My guess would be that anyone living permanently in a tunnel (whether on Earth or elsewhere) would appreciate having the equivalent of "slow glass".

However, one aspect of the post did strike a dissonant note (for me at least). That was the idea of using a loop. The human brain (it seems to me) would require a very LONG loop to be satisfied. On the OTHER hand, we humans often play recordings of favorite music over and over again, and in that context, we treasure the arrival of each note as it arrives since it DOES NOT change.

Stopping to reflect ... perhaps (in time) we humans will choose to replay particular scene videos because of the same comfort born of familiarity. The pattern of waves crashing on a beach, accompanied by the activities of land and sea creatures, along with the sounds of the scene, are already available in DVD recordings which patrons can buy and run as background while they do house work or studies or otherwise spend their time.

I would expect that particular producers of videos of this kind would have an audience of off-world customers who would wait with anticipation for the latest data transmission from Earth.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2019-09-29 07:13:58

For RobertDyck re #60 ,....

Thank you for those images of "modern" raised houses, and failed earlier attempts.

Your suggestion that conditions underground on Mars might match those found in Northern climates on Earth, renews my hope that something more can be done with Devin Island (or similar site elsewhere in necessary) to allow development of the machinery and procedures that would be needed on Mars to build an underground city, with housing, work spaces, recreation spaces and transportation networks.

According to (relatively recent) news, which may have been reported in this forum, Russians have been building defense facilities in the far North of their terrain, in preparation for warming of the Arctic and gradual elimination of ice which now blocks exploitation of resources.

According to those reports (as I remember them) the facilities are built ENTIRELY underground, so (I'm presuming) the Russians must have experience working in permafrost, and (I deduce) they must have done so with success.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-09-29 07:14:46)

SpaceNut · 2019-09-29 11:12:48

"slow glass" a delay of light passing such that when it entered was a period of time to when it would come out. Speed of light can not be altered but the wave length of data that it carries can be save and processed later for output.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/03/1 … _boffinry/

In essense the web camera's that are all over the world for weather viewing is this function of light data being stored for later use. The same can be done for a virtual library of knowledge such as a hologram projection for later to view.

For Robertdyck the insulation that covers a foundation is used around here to keep the heat from causing the settling of a building. One can also double foundation box with the layer in between the inner and outer box foundation to further keep heat from penetrating to the cold. These are construction techniques and really are not solving the support issues for reduced resources for mars which are just the same as the island.

tahanson43206 · 2019-09-29 12:15:56

For SpaceNut re #63

Nice catch!

I appreciated the background of the science fiction origins of "slow glass", which I ran across in a short story.

The discovery of a possible storage technique using nanodoughnuts is interesting, and I can imagine we'll hear more about that idea in future.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2019-09-29 12:57:26

Permafrost in Nunavut - Nunavut Climate Change Centre
Above is a PDF document. That's the title from the web search. The document itself is titled "A Homeowner's Guide to Permafrost in Nunavut".
Scroll down to page 7, the page number on the page itself is 3 (cover page, copyright page, acknowledgements). That page has a chart of permafrost thickness by latitude. It's "conceptual", there will be differences by location, but this gives us a good idea. Permafrost shown dark blue, water channels shown light blue. Highest latitude is 75°, the same as Devon Island. This shows permafrost should be about 700 metres deep. The article talks about finding a location with exposed bedrock, piles are often pinned directly to bedrock. Building an underground house on Devon Island would require finding a location where bedrock is a reasonable distance below the surface. Here in Winnipeg we don't have permafrost, but tall tower buildings are built on piles driven down to bedrock. Looks like we'll have to do the same for a house on Devon Island.

::Edit:: For those unwilling to click a simple link, here's an image. It's from a different document, the above chart is along Baffin Island, below is along the Mackenzie Valley, but this also shows 700 metre depth.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2019-09-29 13:06:26)

RobertDyck · 2019-09-29 13:29:08

The movie "Prometheus" had a "lifeboat" that the rich heiress of a multi-billion dollar corporation had built for herself. This included a floor-to-ceiling TV that showed landscapes. This could be done now with a "video wall". You can buy TV "tiles" that can be mounted together 2x2, 3x3, 4x4, etc.

Ps: the columns are interesting. They look like fluid filled lighting columns, but they aren't transparent. They kind of give an impression of the scene behind, but not clearly. That means there could be solid steel posts or beams within covered in some sort of aesthetic covering designed to give the illusion of transparency.

SpaceNut · 2019-09-29 13:59:46

continued in another topic

RobertDyck wrote:

I mentioned the window for "economy cabins" on the outside hull would have a window, and that would could be the TV. I said this because I repair laptop computers, I have taken apart an LCD display. It's a very thin transparent glass over a flat panel back light. The Liquid Crystal Display works with a layer of glass polarized in one direction, and a pixel is formed by an AC current through a small liquid pocket causing the liquid to become polarized 90° to the glass. With 2 filters polarized 90° to each other, they block light becoming black. Obviously they have red, green, and blue pixels. The point is when the LCD is removed from the back light, it's actually as transparent as glass and very thin. Actually too thin, it's easy to break. The display is taped to the back light, and the back light provides structural support.
So could we design a TV to be transparent when turned off? Here's a transparent TV that can be purchased. It's intended for store windows with advertising on the TV and merchandise displayed behind the TV. This video shows an enthusiast trying to game on it. (Click image for YouTube video.)
You can install "electronic tint window" behind it. This window is a big LCD that blocks light. With the window behind the TV blocked, you get a clear TV picture.

SpaceNut · 2019-09-29 14:03:19

tahanson43206 wrote:

For SpaceNut re #63
Nice catch!
I appreciated the background of the science fiction origins of "slow glass", which I ran across in a short story.
The discovery of a possible storage technique using nanodoughnuts is interesting, and I can imagine we'll hear more about that idea in future.
(th)

I am reminded on my early days when memory cores were made of small beads or doughnuts of ferite materials where the grid of x and y wires passed through them to save the data as a 1 or 0 for later retrieval. The ferite bead held onto the setting of data as long as power was on.

RobertDyck · 2019-09-29 15:54:07

SpaceNut wrote:

continued in another topic

If you're going to copy my post, could you please keep the tags? What you posted has the url tags, but all the img tags are removed. The result is I don't see any of the images, just web addresses. And the url address is mixed with the image address. It looks horrible.

SpaceNut · 2019-09-29 16:11:13

That would require and edit copy of your content in the post, the quote function removes the bbccode, those thing I can put back in if we need to.

tahanson43206 · 2019-09-29 18:03:17

For SpaceNut re #68

Thanks for another neat memory refresh ... I owned a hunk of retired core memory for a while, for a prop in a computer education program I offered on occasion.

My recollection is that the core memory used for the Apollo computer was hand "stitched" by workers.

Amazingly (to me) YouTube has a video of the process: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P12r8DKHsak

***
However, to your point .... it sounds from the article that something similar would be needed for a light capture nanodoughnut, except that the scale of the equipment would be orders of magnitude smaller, and presumably speed would be increased (at least compared to core memory) and heat production would be less, although I would expect that production of heat cannot be eliminated altogether.

I vaguely recall reading somewhere that information storage and retrieval inevitably produces heat. I wonder if that rule still applies in quantum computers, although as a general proposition, I would expect that it does.

This topic is about building a full scale version of Sagan City (2018) on Devon Island (or equivalent location).

The connection back to the topic would be that the proposed community would (should) be a test bed for advanced technologies like this one.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2019-09-29 19:25:01

From the Mars Society main website: http://fmars.marssociety.org/

Part of what makes FMARS an ideal Mars analog facility is its location in a periglacial environment along the rim of an ancient impact crater. This is a rare setting to have on Earth, but it is repeated planet-wide on Mars. Based on observations by the Phoenix mission in 2008, the role of water ice permafrost in the formation of periglacial features on Mars was confirmed making many periglacial processes on Earth a direct analog for Mars. This provides an opportunity to study some of the younger geological processes that are active on Mars today, right here on Earth.

Definition of "periglacial": ArcticGlaciers.org

Periglacial, Paraglacial and Permafrost
Periglacial environments are those that are in a cold climate, typically near glacierised regions. Permafrost environments are those where the ground is frozen for more than two years in a row. In contrast, paraglacial processes, landforms and landscapes are those that are directly conditioned by former glaciation and deglaciation.
Antarctic environments and landscapes are conditioned by both periglacial and paraglacial processes, with landforms related to frozen ground, and with the redistribution of glacigenic sediments by fluvial, coastal and aeolian processes. Rock wall relaxation following the removal of buttressing glaciers is also a common paraglacial process in Antarctica.
The periglacial environment is a cold climate, frequently marginal to the glacial environment, and is characteristically subject to intense cycles of freezing and thawing of superficial sediments. Permafrost commonly occurs within this periglacial environment. However, processes that involve the freezing, unfreezing, and movement of water are considered to be periglacial; processes associated with the presence of perennially frozen ground are permafrost. Permafrost is therefore closely associated with the periglacial environment, and usually permafrost processes take place within a periglacial environment.

This implies ice-rich permafrost is an issue. If we design buildings for Devon Island like modern buildings posted above, they really won't be appropriate for Mars. For Mars we need buried structures for radiation shielding. This is an issue.

SpaceNut · 2019-09-29 19:32:52

So far we have continued to pile up a wish list of items that require power with out the solutions to creating it. Other than Nasa with its kilowatt reactor the solar panel battery farm is it and its huge in volume and mass for going to mars. The repurpose for the solar panels on the ship if they have them with batteries for the landing are about it thou we do not have all the numbers as of yet.

The location of devon island provide the energy conditions that we would see on mars and we still leave after summer which will not be possible for mars..

We see a simular conditions for plan growth on the island out in the open as would be with a slightly protected mars.

So if we are creating stored energy for the winter then lets figure it out as we will need to for mars which is twice as long...
We also need to be more realistic with its use as there is not getting more than the system that we take....

Next energy consumer is water as it will be a fight to gain it from the soil, and air. Devon island and the air will be way easier than mars but we can reduce the amount produced to the same for a given energy equivalent.

Next is not just food growth to practice but we must get into production mode to feed none stop with a nutrient filled diet.
The current greenhouse is natural light but for mars we will need to do more with energy to make the food grow quicker.

The space walks that are being executed as done are fine but we need to know the specifics of energy and oxygen plus water for these to be able to say that we will be ok on mars.

RobertDyck · 2019-09-29 22:05:07

SpaceNut wrote:

So far we have continued to pile up a wish list of items that require power with out the solutions to creating it. Other than Nasa with its kilowatt reactor the solar panel battery farm is it and its huge in volume and mass for going to mars.

I could post a long list of energy sources on Earth that won't work on Mars. I think everyone knows them. Irrelevant. Solar has the major problem that a dust storm of 3 months will exceed any ability to store power, especially in the coldest time of year. Devon Island has 24-hour dark for 3 months per year, so same problem. Nuclear is the only obvious solution, but I seriously doubt the Canadian federal government or Nunavut territorial government would allow construction of houses with a small nuclear reactor per house. A town size reactor would be difficult enough, and would require certified technicians to operate.

SpaceNut wrote:

The current greenhouse is natural light but for mars we will need to do more with energy to make the food grow quicker.

I've had this argument many times. No, we don't need to protect plants from radiation on Mars. No, it's not a good idea to bury the greenhouse. Radiation on the surface of Mars is half that of ISS, and a spectrally selective coating on the glass will add further protection. If life support fails there's no evacuation, you have to stay on Mars until the launch window opens. I could provide a long list of life support systems, but they all have a single point of failure: power. A greenhouse is the only life support system that doesn't require power, if you make it dependent on power too, you've gone out of your way to create a single point of failure. That will doom Mars settlers to death. Yes, I realize a dust storm will block ambient light. During normal operation power will be used for industrial purposes. During a dust storm all industrial operations will be shut down, power directed to artificial lights in the greenhouse. Just pray you don't have a failure of the power supply at the same time as a dust storm.

That said, I did describe a greenhouse with mirrors. If built at the equator, it would have mirrors tilted 45° to shine sunlight into the sides of the greenhouse. With a greenhouse twice as wide as high, mirrors from the ground to the same height as greenhouse roof, that would double illumination. Orient the greenhouse east-west, with a long narrow greenhouse. Mirrors the full length of greenhouse sides. That way sunlight at dawn will reflect somewhat westward into the greenhouse, but still within the greenhouse. Sunlight at high noon will reflect directly in. At dusk sunlight will reflect eastward, but still within. That way mirrors don't have to track the Sun. Tilt will have to track with seasons, and on Mars the tilt will have to something more than 0.9° once every 14 sols; round to 1°. Southern mirror would be tilted down, northern mirror tilted up as the Sun's angle descends in autumn; reverse in spring. Angle would be 45° on the equator at the spring and autumnal equinox. At summer and winter solstice the mirrors would be tilted off that by half the planet's axial tilt. Mirror angle would be adjusted by half the latitude: down for southern mirror, up for northern mirror. Reverse for southern hemisphere.

For Devon Island @ 75°N, mirrors would be just 7.5° off the ground on the southern side, 82.5° on the northern side, on the spring/autumn equinox. Earth's axial tilt is 23.4392811° so at summer solstice the southern mirror would be 19.22° off the ground, northern mirror 70.78°. This kind of breaks down on November 5 when the Sun doesn't rise any more: southern mirror flat on the ground, northern mirror 90°. But I don't think you would expect to grow much food in October there. On Earth seasonal mirror angle change would require (axial tilt / 2) from spring equinox to summer solstice, so 11.71964055° in 365.25/4=91.3125 days. That works out to change of 0.8984255589° per week, round off to 0.9° per week. So Mars has to change mirror angle once every 14 sols, but Earth has to change it every 7 days. Sounds about right.

Would using mirrors to double illumination in summer satisfy requirements? Mars gets 47% as much illumination as Earth, but Earth's atmosphere blocks a lot. Light at Mars surface is slightly over half that of Earth, so mirrors would more than compensate. Devon Island at 75° latitude would have COS(75°)=0.2588 as much sunlight as the equator at spring/autumnal equinox. Or comparing to De Moines Iowa, Devon Island gets 34.6% as much sunlight. That's just taking curvature of the Earth into account, not increasing amount of atmosphere to filter sunlight.

elderflower · 2019-09-30 06:48:43

Somebody is going to need to do a lot of mirror and glass cleaning. We will need a crawler or suspended robot to get the dust and frost off the surfaces.

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