Large scale colonization ship

RobertDyck · 2021-09-20 11:44:39

Post #774 has a hand drawing of a cross section of the ring. Not sure how big the greenhouse will be, but it's drawn full width of the ring. Notice the sun-facing side is only 2.43 metres (8 feet) high, although the greenhouse could have higher ceilings, eg 3 metres (10 feet) or more. However, the ring width is 19 metres. Illuminating that whole width requires a mirror. Restricting plant growth to the sun-facing side wall would be restrictive.

GW Johnson · 2021-09-20 11:53:53

Robert:

Do you know anybody at NORCAT that I could contact about the CanaDrill? There still ought to be a file somewhere with the drawings and the test data in it. They built the thing.

GW

RobertDyck · 2021-09-20 12:05:36

It's over a decade since I visited NORCAT. I saw their drill prototype at Canadian Space Agency headquarters at a workshop. I also attended a symposium hosted by NORCAT themselves at their facility in Sudbury. But that's over a decade ago. I can give you their website.

Contact Us - NORCAT

GW Johnson · 2021-09-29 19:58:20

Robert:

I tracked Jim Richard and Dale Bouchard from NORCAT to Deltion, Ltd, where among many other things, they are still involved with space drills, primarily for the moon. Something called Destin TRL6 is the 1-m lunar drill descendant of CanaDrill. I have tried to contact them, and I have updated the letter concept proposal to reflect these facts, as well as the other stuff that was in Draft 8. That's about as good as it is going to get.

I have another version updated a tad for clarity here and there, and to reflect the Deltion / Destin information in addition to the rest. It is ready to go, except that I need a copy of your resume to go with it. I also need TH's, and he knows that. If you don't have my email, send it to TH and he can send it to me. It's a concept proposal, we only need to establish that we are not laymen. Doesn't have to be a new one. Just whatever you have on hand.

GW

RobertDyck · 2021-09-30 17:29:00

Sent a direct email with my resume. Did you get it? And is this what you're hoping for? Sorry, I don't have engineering credentials.

GW Johnson · 2021-10-05 20:50:09

Robert:

I received no email with any resume. Try again. And if it doesn't work, try sending it via Thomas Hanson. I've got Spacenut's and Kbd512's, and a draft of Thomas's. Need yours, just in case. Use <<removed by Moderator>>.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2021-10-05 20:50:39)

tahanson43206 · 2021-10-05 21:05:15

For GW Johnson....

RobertDyck is a Moderator, so he can see your email address in the Forum Member data.

I removed the email you posted, because this forum is open to the world.

We know that spammers are constantly beating on the doors of this forum.

We do NOT want your email address to be distributed world wide for targeting.

for Robertdyck ... Please use the NewMarsMember portal. The address I have on file is seldom used.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2021-10-06 04:06:09

Gary, I received email from both yourself and Tom. I received an email from you confirming contact information for NORCAT. I sent my resume on Sept 30. I just resent, and this time CC'd everyone else. You may have to check your spam folder. Some spam filters flag my name.

tahanson43206 · 2021-10-06 14:39:19

For RobertDyck re topic

You have made progress on numerous fronts in your campaign to move Large Ship from vision to flight.

It is entirely possible you have thought about design of the structural elements, and simply chosen not to publish.

Here is a thought that just came to me, that might help you to achieve the triple objectives of:

1) Light weight
2) Tensile strength
3) Compression strength

Related to the above would be flexibility .... your vessel is going to be more like a wooden sailing ship than an iron dreadnaught.

It will have to endure momentum inputs from all directions simultaneously while maintaining integrity.

The greatest tensile strength that I'm aware of belongs to Carbon structures.

Lightest weight (of common elements) is a winning property of Aluminum.

An option I am offering for your consideration is tubular elements made of Aluminum, containing carbon fiber woven rope able to sustain tension for the vessel when provided in sufficient quantity.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2021-10-06 15:44:05

Understand part of the plan is to harvest steel from an iron asteroid. Near Earth Asteroids orbit the Sun closer than Mars or Venus. Only 4% are true metal. Metal asteroids can be processed with the Mond process. That uses carbon monoxide gas at 1 atmosphere pressure and ~200°C to convert nickel to vapour. The vapour decomposes to nickel metal and CO at slightly higher temperature. This is how nickel is refined from iron. At slightly higher temperatures it works with iron. Higher again for cobalt. Even higher temperatures, more pressure and add fluorine gas for platinum group metals. These temperatures can be achieved in space with a parabolic mirror to focus sunlight. One reason for using stainless steel is it's so easy to harvest in space.

tahanson43206 · 2021-10-07 15:22:38

For RobertDyck re steel ...

kbd512 seems to expect liberal use of steel in Large Ship ....

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 84#p185784

I was taken aback by the wall thickness he is advocating.

However, it ** would ** help with radiation protection, in conjunction with traditional light atom substances like water and plastic gel.

(th)

kbd512 · 2021-10-07 16:10:42

tahanson43206,

Tensile strength is not the greatest engineering issue associated with fabricating a truly large ship, as compared to the availability of the base material, the energy cost of producing that material, therefore monetary cost, the ability to repair the structure in space, and ultimately the ability to obtain the material from sources in space. Cutting and welding metal can be done in space. We use vacuum bagging on composites to create pressure differential to help infuse the resin into the composite and minimize resin-to-fiber ratio, but for the size of the structures RobertDyck is talking about producing, steel would be far easier to machine and shape into the finished parts. Stainless steel has the best mechanical properties and widespread availability (on Earth and in space) for fabricating very large and truly durable interplanetary transport ships. Nothing of the size that RobertDyck has proposed will be launched into space from the surface of the Earth, no matter what it's made from, so the ability to fabricate the vessel in space, and later on from materials mined from objects in space, is of much greater importance.

RobertDyck · 2021-10-07 18:44:00

I did a little more research today. According to alloy UNS N06617, Inconel 617 does not require aluminum. It does require nickel, chrome, cobalt, and molybdenum. It can contain some other materials, with maximum of each. That's important because all the required metals are in metal asteroids. A metal asteroid does not have aluminum.

Metal asteroids are the core of a dwarf planet that broke up, probably during initial formation of the solar system. The object had to be large enough to melt the bulk of the body, and enough gravity to differentiate material. Heavy metals sank to the core, light materials floated to the surface. So the crust would contain aluminum, silicon, sodium, magnesium. These form familiar minerals called rock. The core holds heavier metals: iron, nickel, cobalt, manganese, chromium, molybdenum. Metal asteroids also hold precious metals. When molten, gold and silver stick to iron, while platinum group metals stick to nickel.

This is important because asteroid mining would bring precious metals back to Earth for sale. That will be a major revenue source to build the large ship. Iron and nickel will be a major byproduct of mining, useful as construction material in space. To bring precious metal bullion to Earth, an aeroshell will be made of asteroid material. Inconel 617 is a super alloy that NASA identified for a metal heat shield. By weight: nickel 44.5% minimum, chromium 20.0-24.0%, cobalt 10.0-15.0%, molybdenum 8.0-10.0%. There are maximums for other materials. A company called "special metals" lists a range for aluminum and carbon rather than maximum, but if they aren't strictly necessary then that makes the alloy easier to make on a metal asteroid. Make a heat shield with a 2-part mould, and back shell with another 2-part mould. Place precious metal bullion inside, and arc-weld together. A robot spacecraft will bring to Earth, and drop on a desert somewhere. No parachute, no control rockets, just a big hunk of metal falling out of the sky. The aeroshell for Genesis spacecraft failed to open it's parachute, it crash and embedded itself half-way into the ground. This shows us a parachute isn't necessary. As long as you don't mind the bullion bars getting bent or dented on impact.

Cobalt has become a valuable metal for batteries of electric cars. If there's any cobalt left over, not needed for aeroshells, then that can be returned to Earth as bars as well.

Now there's the question: how much chromium does an asteroid have? It will be key to stainless steel for the large ship.

kbd512 · 2021-10-07 19:56:33

RobertDyck,

If we're going to bother to extract all these metals at all, then why not use them to build more ships or space stations?

By my count, 62.5kg of Platinum pays for a Starship launch, which is basically like taking one extra passenger back. So what if we need to pay for 10 launches? It's not that much extra weight, so why not bring it back without dropping gigantic chunks of metal in random places?

How much would the insurance cost be, if you accidentally killed someone or demolished their house?

Speaking of heavy metal, how much Tungsten and Uranium is present in these asteroids, if any?

tahanson43206 · 2021-10-07 20:02:59

For RobertDyck....

The discussion of asteroid mining belongs in a topic dedicated to discussing asteroid mining.

Mining an asteroid will happen ** after ** you build the Large Ship, and not before.

By placing asteroid mining in the critical path for flight of Large Ship, you are returning it to the realm of Science Fiction. If you want to be a Science Fiction writer, that is fine, but if I wanted to read Science Fiction, I can pick up a copy of Analog.

The ** only ** way that Large Ship is going to come into existence is if you stay focused on what is possible using Earth based resources.

I do not agree with kbd512's pessimism about building Large Ship with Earth launches.

I ** do ** agree that when Lunar mining becomes practical, there will come into existence an infrastructure build\t on that capability.

We need Large Ship ** long ** before any such capability is realized.

I'd appreciate it if you'd (at least try to) return to a semblance of practical possibility, in developing a plan for Large ship.

(th)

kbd512 · 2021-10-07 20:10:24

tahanson43206,

I'm stating that you need a material that's very easy to work with in a hard vacuum, specifically because you need many launches from Earth to build those first ships. I did not mean to suggest that the first ships wouldn't be built with materials launched into orbit, from Earth.

tahanson43206 · 2021-10-08 05:35:36

For kbd512 re #866

Thanks for support of the proposition that Large Ship can be built using Earth launches. That means we (humans) have a chance of actually building the ship, because the technology exists. We just need more of it (and the energy to support the venture).

The Large Ship is a concept for providing Mars level gravity and Mars Habitat environment. It doesn't need to be any heavier than the minimum needed to achieve the RobertDyck Large Ship specifications.

It could be built with three Starships as the cabin area, spun around a Starship hub with minimal compression and tension members to insure the contraption holds together.

The larger 1000 passenger version can (and surely will) come later.

It is the ** basic ** concept I'd like to see flying, and a flight date of 2024 is NOT out of the question, although I'll admit there are a lot of uncertainties, starting with Starship itself.

Regarding construction .... Welding might be necessary, but (in my opinion) it should be avoided .... The components can be designed to be bolted together.

Parts that seem necessary include:

Girders to secure fore and aft Starship lugs to the central hub Starship.

Girders to complete the outside edges of a triangle between each Starship and the hub, and the other Starships.

A Blender rendering of this concept is possible. Perhaps one will show up here by-m-by.

The reason I suggested using Kevlar (or equivalent) material for the tension element inside a compression element is to save mass.

I think it is technically reasonably feasible to assemble a rudimentary "RobertDyck Type" Large Ship using these techniques by 2024, assuming Starship is flying by 2022.

Whether it is possible to find investors (Nations or Corporations) willing to pay for the design, the materials and the launches is a reasonable question.

What RobertDyck can do to insure the first Large Ship ** has ** his specifications is to publish them as a Standard for all Large Ship builders to follow.

That could be accomplished for the cost of paper, a 9x12 envelope (or whatever the Canadian equivalent may be) and postage to the publishing house.

In the modern age, shipping of documents by paper is considered antiquated, but still permitted. Electronic transmission is much more common, I understand.

I'd very much like to see the Large Ship ** concept ** reach public view, so that it has a chance of becoming a standard expectation of what a ** real ** Large Ship is going to look like. What is most ** definitely ** needed is to move the Specifications onto the world stage, and out of the New Mars incubator.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2021-10-08 12:45:04

The large ship uses a ring. It has to use 3 RPM to achieve Mars level gravity. You can't make it smaller. If you want something smaller, Robert Zubrin showed us how. Mars Direct would connect a habitat to the spend upper stage, use the upper stage as a counterweight. Use a tether to connect. The tether could be made of Spectra. Kevlar is an aramid fibre like nylon. Spectra is ultra high molecular weight polyethylene. Spectra is used for mountain climbing ropes. Coat the rope in something to protect against micrometeoroids. Mars Exploration Rovers, Spirit and Opportunity, used Zylon for their parachute cords. Zylon is similar to Kevlar but stronger. Perseverance rover used Technora, also an aramid fibre.

Mars Direct was developed in 1990. At that time the Shuttle was still flying. Part of the mission plan was the Ares launch vehicle; as powerful as Saturn V but made of Space Shuttle parts and able to launch from the same Mobile Launch Platform as Shuttle. The only difference between SLS block 2 and ares is the engines for the core stage are moved. Yes, the engine position for SLS is more efficient, but it requires modifying the MLP so Shuttle can't fly any more. Now that Shuttle doesn't fly, it can be done. In 1990 it couldn't. Both Ares and SLS have a core stage the same diameter as Shuttle external tank. It was supposed to be manufactured with the same tooling as Shuttle's ET. The Mars Direct habitat has the same diameter. An 8.4 metre outside diameter provides as much floor area on one deck as a 60-floot class A motorhome with slide-outs. By the way, both FMARS and MDRS use all the space of both decks, but a real Mars Direct habitat would not. The lower deck would be: airlock, stairway, rocket engines used to land on Mars (or the Moon), propellant tanks to feed the landing engines, RCS thrusters, propellant tanks to feed RCS thrusters, mechanism of landing legs, solar panels that are stowed for launch and have to be stowed again for Mars atmospheric entry, life support, and a storage compartment for the rover. The storage compartment would be as large as a single car garage, the rover inside the size of an SUV. And surface science equipment packed around the rover. An inflatable greenhouse would be stowed as well, as well as soil trays and gardening tools. Visualize a 10'x20' garage with an SUV inside, all your lawn and gardening equipment, and a large soft-side swimming pool folded and stowed on the roof of the SUV. That's what it would be like. So no usable space during transit to Mars, only the upper deck. Once on Mars the rover will go outside and not come back in, the surface science equipment deployed and never come back in, the greenhouse set up and inflated. Soil trays and gardening tools transferred to the greenhouse. That leaves a lower deck the size of a single car garage that could be used for EVA prep and workshop and/or laboratory. Upper deck would have a lab. The greenhouse would be the same width as a double car garage, and twice the length of a double car garage.

Mars Direct could definitely be launched by a cargo Starship. If final lift capacity of Starship will be 150 metric tonnes to LEO, as Elon Musk said a couple times, then Mars Direct could be done with just two launches. As originally proposed. Ares was supposed to lift 130t to LEO. SLS block 2 is supposed to lift 130t to LEO. So Starship could lift the Mars Direct ERV with TMI stage fully fuelled in one launch. A second launch for habitat with TMI stage fully fuelled. Mars Direct hab was originally proposed to be 8.4 metre outside diameter because Shuttle ET was that size, and both Ares and SLS core stages also have the same size. Starship will have 9 metre outside diameter. Inside the fairing it will be a bit smaller, but definitely enough to fit Mars Direct.

Or we could discuss the modification to Mars Direct that I proposed in 2002. I've posted about it on NewMars many times. Basically add an in-space habitat that travels from Earth to Mars with the surface hab, but the in-space hab stays in Mars orbit. Upon return to Earth, it will park in Earth orbit so it can be reused. Attach a Dragon capsule for Earth atmospheric entry, which stays in Mars orbit with the in-space hab. Instead of an ERV, send a Mars Ascent Vehicle. The MAV will use ISPP and be minimal, not designed for Earth atmospheric entry. The MAV will have extra large propellant tanks so the MAV can act as the TEI stage. Once injected into a trans-Earth trajectory, the MAV can be used as a counterweight for artificial gravity like the TMI stage. This means all food and supplies for both outbound and return trip are with astronauts during their outbound leg, so if free-return is necessary they have all that with them.

tahanson43206 · 2021-10-08 17:17:01

For RobertDyck ....

The three points of an equilateral triangle lie on a circle about the center.

Your vision for Large Ship is intact, if you allow (license) the builder to set up a configuration of living quarters that is located on the circumference of the circle you have defined, whether the "circle" is physical or virtual.

If you insist that the builder ** must ** create a physical circle, they could (and undoubtedly would) create a "ring" of gossamer material that follows the circumference you have prescribed. It could even be made to glow if that is your desire.

In the meantime, please make a Blender rendering of what a Large Ship with three Starships at the tips of an equilateral triangle, affixed to a Starship at the hub, might look like.

The distinct advantage of this design is that each tip of the triangle contains all the equipment and fuel needed to make course changes.

You can have Large Ship flying with your name on it within a couple of years, if Elon and company succeed with the Starship concept, and if you find a backer for your venture.

If you wait for someone to mine an asteroid, I suspect you'll be waiting a long time.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2021-10-08 17:39:12

The point was for *ME* to set up an asteroid mine. For me to develop equipment, and sell equipment to others who also want to get involved in asteroid mining after I've proven it can be done. Yes, asteroid mining is on the critical path for the large ship.

As for the exploration ship, can you visualize how that would work? Two habitats connected together at one end of a tether, the spent TMI stage at the other end. Upon approach to Mars simply cut the tether to allow the spent stage to fly off into space. No need to re-dock. For return to Earth, the MAV would dock with one remaining habitat, then push the stack into trans-Earth trajectory. Once enroute, separate so the hab with Dragon capsule at one end of the tether, MAV at the other. The MAV is then nothing but a counter weight. Upon approach to Earth, the tether would be cut, allow the MAV to fly off into space. Would this take 3 launches of cargo Starship. One launch to deliver the MAV to Mars, then launches for surface hab and in-space hab. One launch of Falcon 9 with a Dragon capsule with crew. The cargo Starship doesn't even have to be man-rated.

RobertDyck · 2021-10-10 18:33:48

Well, my efforts with Blender are a little better. Shows a hub, cargo hold, and propulsion stage. Added spokes. The observation deck is shown as solid glass rather than windows.

SpaceNut · 2021-10-10 19:01:31

crewed dragon I think can hold 7 and that looks really good. Seams for glass panels not a problem as that wants to be very small and could be layers for over lapping of glass sheets.

tahanson43206 · 2021-10-10 19:29:43

For RobertDyck re Blender achievement!

Very nice! Thanks for continuing to work on your design!

I'd be happier if it had multiple decks, so the passengers will have some room to roam around. I've gone to considerable trouble to show you (and all forum readers) what the cabins deck is going to look like when populated with all 1000 passengers and 60 crew.

If you add a deck for equipment to manage flows of liquids (sewerage and gray water replaced by fresh potable water) and other services the passengers are going to need, ** and ** you add a deck for recreation and such amenities as you've already described in some detail, I'll think you have something.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2021-10-11 04:12:05

Note: I said the upper deck will have a Mars simulation room. With the same pressure and gas mix as the surface of Mars, and same temperature as Mars during daylight. The floor was be some non-slip surface painted on the metal deck, possibly "bed liner" for pickup trucks. The first trip to Mars will ship up real Mars surface dirt compete with rocks. So all subsequent trips the Mars simulation room will have a few inches of real Mars dirt. Geologists will have a great time.

However, I said the habitation ring will have centrifugal force equal to Mars mean surface gravity, to 6 significant figures. That means the second deck will have 93% as much artificial gravity as the habitation ring. So the Mars room will have 93% as much gravity as Mars. Oops!

Upper decks will not have the water wall for radiation protection. Only the habitation ring will be shielded against a Solar Proton Event. Furthermore each deck will have different gravity. Greenhouses, observation rooms, and the Mars simulation room will all have transparent walls and ceiling. Greenhouses need it for sunlight for the plants. Other rooms give maximum view of space. EVA prep. and airlock for the Mars room doesn't need windows. Vats of microbes for various life support doesn't need windows. The rest does. And I'm thinking 8-foot ceilings for the habitation ring, but 12-foot ceilings for the upper deck. I'm not sure we need an entire upper deck, but there always seems to be more. Remember an observation room on the upper deck (aka observation deck) could be the full ring width: 19 metres wide (62' 4").

tahanson43206 · 2021-10-11 06:10:10

For RobertDyck re #874 and Blender Progress

Thanks for continuing to invest time and thought in our venture, and for sharing your progress with the NewMars members, and (hopefully) forum readers who are not members. I find your attempt to achieve something ** real ** in the domain of Science Fiction to be inspiring, and hope it reaches younger folks who will be inspired as so many of us were by the thinking of Wernher Von Braun. He was assisted by the famous artist Willy Ley, and you are assisted by the Blender community, which has been working for many years now to provide a powerful visualization tool.

Your willingness to learn how to use such a sophisticated tool at your advanced age (ie, over 30) is a testimony to your determination, since many of us find learning increasingly difficult with each additional (Earth) year.

I am looking forward to seeing the next version of your project.

Update at 11:24 ... please keep moving the ball forward. Your progress may seem slow at this point, but each decision you make in creating a model is one more decision out of the long list to be addressed. A sufficiently detailed model can be converted into engineering drawings fairly quickly (or so I understand).

I'm keeping a watch for an opportunity to find support. The work underway to land GW Johnson's engineering probes on Mars may reveal an organization looking for a Large Ship design, although I'm sure they'll be calling it something else.

(th)

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