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#776 2021-07-29 16:29:49

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 2,232

Re: Large scale colonization ship

It would appear to me, that as useful as a large colonisation ship will be, it is a concept that lies some way into the future.  In the near term, we will have a launch vehicle, capable of transporting 100 metric tonnes of materials into low Earth orbit in a sustainable and reusable way.  For Mars bound transportation, we can use tanker ships to refuel a Starship vessel in LEO to allow trans-Mars injection.  But a colonisation ship, that transfers passengers and freight from orbit to orbit, allowing Starship to function as a short range ferry, makes a lot of sense, largely because an orbit to orbit vessel can be more propellant efficient.

What we want in the short term is a small scale orbit - orbit colonisatiin ship, that can be assembled in Earth orbit, using perhaps a few Starship payloads.  The ship does not need to be spacious or comfortable.  It's goal is deliver passengers and freight to Mars cheaply, without damage to health.  The ship would victual at Mars, using Mars made electric propulsion propellant and food.  It is of value if it can reduce the cost of transport to Mars.  If it can also improve astronaut health, then that is a bonus.  What is important at present is improving the bottom line.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-07-29 16:31:57)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#777 2021-07-29 17:15:29

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,063

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For all who join the Large Ship undertaking ...

Here is a reminder of the opening paragraphs from the First post...

I mentioned this elsewhere, but we need a dedicated topic. This is ship intended to carry a large number of passengers. Intended to travel from Earth orbit to Mars orbit and back. Aerocapture at both planets. Heat shield made of Nextel 440 fabric, which is the fabric that NASA's Ames Research Center selected for advanced thermal blankets called DurAFRSI. That's a synthetic ceramic fabric. Carbon fibre can withstand more heat, but carbon fibre is not as durable so not as reusable. Rotation for artificial gravity; a wheel behind a giant fabric umbrella heat shield.

SpaceX Starship to ferry passengers from Earth to the interplanetary ship. And Starship fuel tanker to refuel it as well. On Mars, a Starship to act as Mars shuttle.

Updated math with more precision. Mars acceleration for the ship, so 38.0% that of Earth gravity. Radius 37.76 metres from centre of rotation to surface of the floor, 3 RPM. One deck. Circumference 237.25 metres. Ring width 19 metres. This allows 2 isles for cabins, corridors 1.5 metres wide, outside cabins have a window, inside cabins do not. Standard cabin size 4x2.4 metres.

There will surely be alternatives proposed by many Earth citizens as the days and weeks ahead unfold.

A new topic for one or more of them would be appropriate if there is someone wanting to develop them as RobertDyck has persisted with this one.

The specifications for this topic are set in stone (or whatever RobertDyck uses for firmament in this environment.)

It is not about something less ambitious ... there are plenty of posts in the NewMars database waiting to be filled with enthusiasts for alternatives.  The posts in ** this ** series are about a ship delivering 1 full Mars gravity and a Mars equivalent habitat atmosphere (as defined by RobertDyck in this topic and elsewhere).

(th)

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#778 2021-07-29 17:34:30

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,343
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

Calliban wrote:

It would appear to me, that as useful as a large colonisation ship will be, it is a concept that lies some way into the future.

You could also say that about Apollo. Oh wait! That happened. Nothing ever "just happens". If you want it, make it happen. The Large Ship can be done within a reasonable time. And remember how this discussion started. Someone sent at tweet to Elon Musk asking what's next after Starship. His answer was not just slightly larger, but twice diameter and twice height. That's 8 times volume. Starship and it's booster Super Heavy are HUGE! Launching something 8 times that size from Earth's surface would be stupid. So my argument was an orbit-to-orbit vessel, dedicated for space. For one, that allows rotation for artificial gravity. The original SpaceX Starship currently under development could be used as a short-range ferry to carry passengers from Earth's surface to the Large Ship in Earth orbit, and another Starship could be permanently parked on Mars to shuttle passengers down from Mars orbit.

The Large Ship isn't intended to compete with Starship. It's the next thing after Starship. And the Large Ship will be dependant on Starship to lift parts into Earth orbit for construction. Although harvesting propellant from space would be nice, initially the tanker version of Starship will be needed to fuel the Large Ship.

As for bottom line: the first trip of the Large Ship will be expensive. However, once a permanent settlement is built on Mars, that Mars settlement will mine/refine/manufacture replacement parts for maintenance and repairs of the Large Ship. And food grown in greenhouses on Mars will supply the Large Ship with enough provisions for both the return and next out-bound trip. Propellant can be harvested from a C-type asteroid, or one of Mars moons, transported to Earth orbit to supply a fuel depot. So the only launch from Earth surface will be passengers and their luggage. At that point the cost per passenger can drop dramatically.

Your comments about size are ironic. tahanson43206 has argued for more space. The ship I've proposed here is mostly cabins. Standard cabins can have furniture configured as a 3rd class cabin from the age of steam ships. Or fewer bunks. Or a single queen-size Murphy bed, which makes it equivalent to a studio single from Norwegian Cruise Lines. I proposed some luxury cabins, based on cabins from modern luxury crew ships, but very few.

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#779 2021-07-29 17:56:23

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,063

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For Calliban re this topic ...

It is possible you've not had time to read this topic from the top....

You may ** never ** have time (or incentive) to read it from the top.  But I feel confident that if you ** do **, you'll find sustained efforts to try to help RobertDyck to visualize his concepts, and to help him anticipate the challenges he will face if he is presented with a serious funder.

There ** has ** to be a ship like this one in mankind's future.  RobertDyck is (perhaps) an unlikely visionary for a project of this magnitude, but I've thought from the beginning it was/is worth supporting in hopes it will amount to something.

I have the same feeling about some of your ideas, and have tried to support them.

Void tossed off an idea for ballistic landings of supplies at Mars, and the topic devoted to that idea seems (to me) to have arrived at a stable point.   In fact (as I think about it) you (Calliban) contributed substantially to giving the concept a chance to see reality at some point.

RobertDyck has pointed out that if his concept is intended to be a single deck with 1060 people in the planned area, then I have indeed called for more space (ie, more decks).    I hope that when someone (besides me) starts to look seriously at the ideas of RobertDyck, there may turn out to be suggestions to help move the project along that RobertDyck would be willing to consider.

To this point, ** I ** have had no influence on the design whatsoever, but I am content to have added some perspective in case someone ever decides to study the proposal with the intent to fund it if it is viable.

(th)

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#780 2021-07-29 18:36:39

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,803

Re: Large scale colonization ship

Added repost to #772

Sunlight for greenhouse and cabin lighting is continous from diagram via light pipe diffuser system

Not really any need for mirrors as light pipes can be curved with a spreading lens at the end to allow the light to cover an area.

The radiators would be on the side facing away from the sun lit side but on the outer arc of the diameter it looks like from image in 774

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#781 2021-07-29 18:55:52

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,343
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

Hi SpaceNut. Wasn't it your idea to serve meals in shifts? Since there is no day or night in space, we can ask passengers to set their clocks to different time zones. Then the main dining room doesn't need to serve everyone at once. Good idea, I'll take it.

Outside cabins will have a window. All cabins will have a flat screen TV, but for outside cabins it's over the window. The TV can be set transparent so you can see out. Sunward cabins will have bright sunlight 24/7, but the TV can be set opaque to block the Sun.

Light pipe is intended to illuminate bags of chloroplasts in the life support wall. That's the oxygen generator. Not intended to illuminate the cabin itself. Yes the greenhouse will generate oxygen, but don't expect the greenhouse to generate enough oxygen. Not all cabins will have all chloroplast bags installed, but there must be capacity to generate enough oxygen for maximum possible passengers and with complete crop failure in the greenhouse.

I believe in safety. Learn from Biosphere 2.

Hmm, but that's an idea. Could we use light pipes as an illumination option for cabins? Hmm...

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#782 2021-07-29 19:07:37

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,803

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For cabin lighting cover the end for night with filters that block more or less light as required.
Yes the shift content I think was in the crew of 17 topic for Oldfart1939 as it keeps the ship manned at all times and needed crews that are asleep would be waken if need is that great.

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#783 2021-08-02 08:28:53

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,063

Re: Large scale colonization ship

A month has gone by since the encouraging news reported below.  By any chance, is the storage space live, or has something happened to block access?

RobertDyck wrote:

I got an updated password. Now can update the Winnipeg chapter website. There is space to store files there, as long as it's not abused. Storing 3D model of a spacecraft to carry settlers to Mars would definitely be within the mandate of the Mars Society.

There are several members who could use permanent storage for projects.

If the Mars Chapter opportunity turns out to be a mirage, I'd like to resume a search for a permanent storage solution within the Mars Society.

Nothing has come of all the discussion in this forum, as near as I can tell.

There is a wealth of experience and knowledge and insight distributed over the active members of this forum.

I'd like to see **real world** results flowing from the forum, and permanent easily accessible storage is a key component of any success that might be achieved.

(th)

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#784 2021-08-02 09:37:50

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,343
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

I posted on the original Mars Society forum about several technologies for Mars. When that forum came down, I copied most of my posts to files. Then created a local chapter, got a website and posted pages there. As an example:

Chloroplast life support project - oxygen generator for the Large Ship.
Mars Roadrunner - now defunct project.

I could post more projects, but you could just click. The website is real. A couple files that aren't easily accessible from the website:

Open The New World - PowerPoint presentation about the Mars Society, written by the DC chapter. Notes encouraged Mars Society members to customize it for their presentation style and audience.
Mars Society - my customization that presentation. If you know how to show PowerPoint presentation notes, my notes are there. From 2004.
Keycon 2015 - my presentation at a local science fiction convention. First part is the same as above, with new slides to show what was new at that time.
Keycon 2016 - my presentation the following year. All new slides.
ISRU Atmosphere Harvesting - a Word Document of my presentation at the Mars Society convention in 2005, explaining how to harvest diluent gas from Mars atmosphere. Diluent gas is what you add to oxygen for air in a habitat. Or diluent gas can be further processed to extract nitrogen, or directly produce ammonia.
Recipes - some recipes I wrote in 2005. The chilli, gel candies, and "Pea Poi" turned out well. The soap will effectively wash your hands but was a paste, neither liquid nor solid bar. Oven baked potato chips... shall we say "needs work".

This shows we can use this to store documents.

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#785 2021-08-02 12:02:45

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,063

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck .... re #784

Thank you for this very encouraging report.

SearchTerm:RobertDyck list of files stored on canada.marsociety.org

The time you can spare is (obviously) limited, and your life has higher priorities than NewMars, for sure!

Given that, I appreciate your taking the time to prepare #784

Todo: Review list at #784

Here are a couple of requests that I hope you can fit into your schedule at some point ...

1) Make a file with parameters/specifications for the Large Ship, so we (er, you) don't have to keep repeating them

2) Make an update to post #1 of Large Ship pointing to that file

3) Please test to see if we can use the site you've opened up for transfer of files between members.

I've been working on software that appears capable of automating some of the duties SpaceNut carries out manually.

I'd like to be able to make the software available to Administrators and Moderators of this forum.  It will work with any FluxBB site, but I'd like to make sure it works reasonably well for folks other than myself.  I am too close to the package to understand what is not intuitive, and the documentation can surely be improved to help to explain functions.  In addition to those basics, I'm ** very ** interested in enhancing the Mouse Trainer component to be able to generate flawless scripts so the operator does not have to have written the package to know what to do.

4) OF1939 is (slowly but surely) working on his design for a 17 person expedition.  We've provided a topic that is just for his use, but the nature of FluxBB does not lend itself to storing a final product.  If you can find space for OF1939 that would be good.

5) Calliban is constantly generating new and potentially significant ideas, or restoring old ideas to view and enhancing them with modern insight.

At some point, Calliban might be interested in saving one or more of his projects in permanent storage readable by others.

6) GW Johnson already has a bountiful Wordpress collection of posts that are written at a level close to if not at what would be excepted for publication, if there were a publication in this day and age that was suitable.  He might be interested in creating an index to his work, if we made it ** very ** easy for him to do so. GW Johnson may be a world class aerospace engineer, but a computer whiz he does NOT claim to be.

7) There is a possibility we may be able to (somehow) persuade a highly skilled animator to assist with Large Ship.  It would be helpful to have a storage location where animations of the Large Ship could be stored.  While I know and understand your interest in the interior layout and fine details such as routing of fluids, I am interested in the physics of operation and navigation of a rotating vehicle.  There may be actual studies of the physics of your concept somewhere in the world in 2021, but if they exist they are well protected from prying eyes.

(th)

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#786 2021-08-02 12:36:52

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,343
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

The Mars Society server uses an ftp client to upload files. Access requires an account and password. Only myself and administrators for the Mars Society Canada have access. You can read, but only I can write. If you want a collaborative system where several on the team can update, then you really want a Wiki.

I did post a couple things about physics. Let's use aircraft terms. This craft will depart Earth orbit with axis of rotation axial aligned with direction of travel. That means rotation of the wheel is steady roll. Pitch is in or out of the plane of the ecliptic. Rotating in the plane of the ecliptic is yaw. To yaw the spacecraft, you must apply thrust in the pitch direction. That means apply thrust 90° to the intended change of orientation. That sounds strange, but there are physics reasons why a gyroscope does this. This will be particularly important because the main engine will be axial with the ship, but the ship must change orientation once thrust ends so that during coast the ship is oriented with stern toward the Sun. That's important for the water wall to provide shadow shielding for radiation shielding, as well as optimal illumination for photovoltaic panels (solar panels), light pipes and greenhouse.

::Edit:: In thread "Why we need fast flights to Mars", post #50
YouTube: Gyroscopic Precession and Gyroscopes

Last edited by RobertDyck (2021-08-02 13:04:13)

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#787 2021-08-02 12:58:41

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,063

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re #786 ... thank you for engaging with me on this.

No, I most emphatically do NOT think a Wiki is a good solution for ** this ** particular group.

What I'm looking for is easily achieved with Dropbox ... However, Dropbox is NOT owned by the Mars Society.  What I'm looking for is a way for members to deliver project files for read-only access by the public. 

It sounds (as I read your post) as though you have found a way for you to store project files for Large Ship, but it would be an imposition upon you to ask you to accept files for anyone else.

Please ** do ** (since this ** is ** the Large Ship topic) take advantage of the storage space you have on Mars Society servers to greatly improve the permanence and durability of your work on behalf of this concept.

I suspect you started this as a science fiction lark, and if I weren't here prodding you'd (possibly) never get beyond that.  However, the work is too important to remain in science fiction lala land.

I can help in small ways, but it seems to me you have to do the heavy lifting for a while longer.

(th)

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#788 2021-08-02 21:20:11

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,063

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re physics animation... I enjoyed seeing that very well done animation again.

I recall if from earlier in the topic when you included in in a post ...

I also downloaded a powerpoint mars presentation ... it ran flawlessly

Perhaps the Large Ship file (whatever it is going to be) needs to be something like that ....

It needs an index so the visitor can find the specification that needs review ...

Key specifications are (but are not limited to)

1) gravity
2) air pressure
3) air composition
4) suit pressure
5) rotation rate (intimately tied to dimensions, of course)
6) cabin dimensions
7) planned passenger and crew numbers

At some point you will need to allow yourself to be subjected to criticism/review by professionals

At present, and for quite some time, you've had the luxury of a (generally supportive) amateur following who don't understand how all the parts and pieces are going to fit together, but enjoy the word pictures (and occasional sketches) that appear in this topic.

In order to secure funding, it will be necessary to let go of some cherished pet ideas (I have no idea what those might be of course).

On the other hand, resistance to change of core principles of the concept is an important characteristic of a technology leader.

(th)

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#789 2021-08-02 22:54:00

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,343
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

The Mars Society has issued a call for papers for this year's convention. It'll be virtual again. It's a number of years since I presented at a Mars Society convention. Some NASA scientists treat the Mars Society is cute amateurs, but there are a lot of serious professionals. I presented a modified Mars mission architecture in 2002. Oh, I got shot down hard! People at that time wouldn't accept even the slightest variation from Robert Zubrin's Mars Direct. My plan was based very much on Mars Direct, but I saw a couple weaknesses and proposed a modification to address them. Members of the Mars Society have been more accepting since 2005. And I attended a professional symposium in 2003, presented my life support idea. I expected to meet engineers so went over basic biology principles but breezed over engineering. Unfortunately it was all biological and medical scientists, no engineers. One individual in the audience thought my covering undergraduate biology to be insulting, but he just couldn't understand basic first year undergraduate engineering. Oh, he roasted me! The other scientists laughed along with him at my expense. But this time it's the Mars Society. Some of the original members know me, have wondered what happened to me. Dr Zubrin gave a talk at the University of North Dakota in 2010. Dr Zubrin recognized me and asked why I haven't attended conventions. Ironic: now that I have enough money to travel, borders are closed due to COVID.

::Edit:: You realize the areas where we disagree are things where your idea would cost more. Those with funds will want positive return on investment, so cost control is not likely something they would want to eliminate.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2021-08-02 23:04:23)

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#790 2021-08-03 06:45:35

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,063

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck: Thanks for your thoughtful reply in post #789

We have a standing invitation to provide a 30 minute talk to the North Houston chapter of the National Space Society.

The chapter has a strong educational focus, due to the interests of the leader.  The chapter has (as you would expect) retired NASA folks in membership.

We (this forum) has a standing invitation thanks to the intervention of FriendOfQuark1, who keeps a wary eye on us.

I do not feel up to giving such a talk, but since you have already done so, I'd like to pass along the invitation.

The next meeting is this coming Saturday at 2 PM Houston time.  All are welcome to attend. The announcement of the topic was posted earlier in the Other Space topic.

YouTube video of previous meetings are available, by visiting the chapter web site.

Regarding cost .... if you are NOT the funder, I recommend you keep your ideas about expense of various items to yourself.

The potential funder is going to want to hear of plans that are going to work reliably and safely, and that do not come across as hare brained.

If you have any ideas that you think would come across as hare brained, you need to scrub them from your presentation.

If you have any areas of technology in which you are not an expert, I recommend you admit that up front, and offer to consider suggestions.

Your ideas for structure to manage flow of forces come across to me as ill considered, and I am NOT an expert in structural design. 

On the other hand, your ideas for rotation, radiation protection, atmosphere type and density, provision of fresh food and numerous other details seem solid to me and ones you can present with confidence.

The vessel should NOT leave port without a full load of fuel and oxidizer to dock into orbit at Mars.  Any suggestion of flying through the atmosphere with a ship full of helpless passengers and crew would be considered reckless in the extreme.

Edit: Stop trying to save your customer money!  You have NO competition! Offer the best product you can imagine, and let the customer decide where to economize.  Basically, if they can't afford what it costs to do the job safely, then they can't afford it period!

(th)

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#791 2021-08-04 17:24:58

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,063

Re: Large scale colonization ship

https://www.yahoo.com/news/impact-space … 43148.html

Roscosmos' Krikalev, a veteran of six space missions who spent a total of 803 days in orbit, noted Wednesday that firing orientation engines created a dynamic load on the station's components, making a thorough analysis of whether some of them could be overstressed necessary.

“The station is a rather delicate structure, and both the Russian and the U.S. segments are built as light as possible,” he said. "An additional load stresses the drivers of solar batteries and the frames they are mounted on. Specialists will analyze the consequences. It is too early to talk about how serious it was, but it was an unforeseen situation that requires a detailed study.”

Krikalev said Nauka's engines fired because a glitch in the control system mistakenly assumed that the lab module hadn't yet docked at the station and activated the thrusters to pull it away.

For RobertDyck ... my purpose here is not to criticize anyone. It is to try to increase everyone's understanding of the challenges of flying a system as massive and complex as the Large Ship as currently envisioned.

At some point, I am hoping you will enlist structural engineers to help you plan placement of tension and compression elements to insure the Large Ship can safely alter orientation with respect to the Sun, and to experience acceleration toward Mars or away from Mars, and even more so with respect to Earth.

(th)

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#792 2021-08-04 18:29:08

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,343
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

Notice I'm looking at building the Large Ship with steel, not aluminum alloy. That makes it heavier and stronger, and better performance re metal fatigue. I'm thinking hull structure similar to the ISS module Leonardo. That one is made of stainless steel, not aluminum. SpaceX is using 300 series stainless steel because it gets stronger at cryogenic temperature. And low carbon version does not have to be annealed after welding. Welding in space may require creating a temporary pressure tent over the weld seam, so there's air or some sort of gas to carry away heat so the molten metal of the weld can solidify. Austenitic stainless steel is not hardenable, so cannot be used for a knife blade, but for a structure that's good. It means you don't have to worry about heat from welding causing the metal to become brittle. Habitable parts of the ship don't have to endure cryogenic temperatures, but ability to weld is critical. Perhaps steel 316L, which has 2% molybdenum. That adds resistance to corrosion. You might not think that an issue in space, but exposure to mono-atomic oxygen in the upper atmosphere, especially during aerocapture, will be an issue.

All windows will be aluminum oxynitride (ALON). That makes them highly resistant to micrometeoroids without pitting. And has greater heat resistance than the windshield of the Space Shuttle.

This ship ring structure instead of two modules on opposite ends of a connecting rod. One reason is strength. The ring with spokes is far stronger.

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#793 2021-08-04 20:39:45

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,063

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re #792

Thanks for repeating your concepts for structural elements of Large Ship.

It is past time for you to start building the permanent specifications and FAQ documents on the Canadian chapter web site.

As you receive questions about particular aspects of your vision, you'll be able to post links to the specific items.

Since you are not a structural engineer and have never claimed to be one, I'm assuming you are ready and willing to accept professional advice if we can ever find someone to tackle a project on the scale of Large Ship.

It will help to be able to direct candidates or interested parties to specific files, instead of waving vaguely at the topic and saying it's "out there somewhere".

Engineers who designed the pointing subsystem for the Hubble (or any of the astronomical or security satellites) would be candidates to help, if we can find them and if they are willing to assist.

Going with steel instead of aluminum is certainly a positive indicator, but it will be important to identify the force flows within the structure as various loads are imposed, and at this point the only thing I'm sure of is no one has any idea where the points of vulnerability may be and what to do about them.

(th)

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#794 2021-08-07 18:07:31

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,063

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck....

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1arzFIY … 761cr/view

The link above is from a member of the North Houston chapter of the National Space Society, who I understand is a retired NASA employee.  The gent's name is David Cheuvront.

it shows a VR simulation designed to consider a rotating habitat for the Asteroid Belt.

Unlike your design, it uses bearings and supports counter-rotating elements along with a cylinder (sort of) main body.

The simulation reminds me of Second Life. 

Apparently it is written with software different from Second Life, and possibly optimized for VR headsets.

If you would like to know more I have included part of the chat from today's meeting in the Other Space organizations topic.

In addition, a recording of the meeting will be available soon if it is not already up.

Update at 21:43 local time ... there is a short intro that takes on the order of 5 minutes ... it shows a desert scene.  The space habitat sequence starts shortly afterward.

I note the avatars ...

One detail the designers do not mention is how they maintain air pressure inside the wheels.

The show a tavern hangout and introduce a female avatar to go along with the two gents.

Later they show a dining room.

The software appears to be something called "Unity"  A title bar contains the expression "worldscene.unity"

The video includes demonstration of working with the software.

There is a term I've not seen before: Udon Graph

I note the group seems to be using a communications package called Discord.

Following along ... I think the Large Ship will be less complex than this model.

I asked Google about Udon Graphs ..

Udon Node Graph https://docs.vrchat.com › docs › udon-node-graph
To understand what is happening in Udon graphs and to make your own, follow the flow. In the graph above: The Start event triggers when the world loads ...
Graph Elements · Searching for Nodes · Event Nodes

Later on, at 39 minutes into the video, I found this: I ** think ** this is the name of the leader of the team?  It's hard to tell.

Verenigiten Flugahrten - ARSSDC 2021 Model - Public
Created by Aaron13ps
Share https://vrchat/mimi=gunterrain-c5cc3
There is a note that the work was done for a Space Settlement Competition

(th)

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#795 2021-08-07 20:27:29

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,063

Re: Large scale colonization ship

As a follow up ...

Unity software per Google:

Unity Software Inc. is an American video game software development company based in San Francisco. It was founded in Denmark in 2004 as Over the Edge Entertainment and changed its name in 2007. Wikipedia
Stock price: U (NYSE) $107.00 -3.20 (-2.90%)
Aug 6, 4:00 PM EDT - Disclaimer
CEO: John Riccitiello (Oct 22, 2014–)
Headquarters: San Francisco, CA
Founded: August 2, 2004, Copenhagen, Denmark
Number of employees: 3,379 (2020)
Video game: GooBall
Subsidiaries: Vivox, Visual Live 3D LLC, deltaDNA Limited, MORE

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Someone with deep pockets is funding that student competition!

***
Here is a YouTube video that compares Unity and Blender

I was surprised to find that the presenter considers Blender to be superior in a number of respects.

He differentiates between game developers and artist/modelers.  I know from having met a professional Blender model builder that Blender supports (can support) a family if the breadwinner is skilled and the customer wants distinctive animation for sales and project planning.

Blender (of course) is still free.

I wondered if Unity evolved from Blender, but have found nothing to indicate that, other than the tip that Blender files can be imported into Unity.

I am still waiting for guidance to see if Unreal Engine is worth study.

(th)

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#796 2021-08-09 08:57:51

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,063

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re topic ....

With so much going on, with employment and other demands on your time, the Large Ship necessarily has to wait for it's place on your agenda.

This post is intended as a reminder that when you ** do ** find time, any additions to this topic will be read with close attention by at least ** one ** other member of the nearly 8 billion people who clutter up the Earth these days.

(th)

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#797 2021-08-09 18:03:58

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,063

Re: Large scale colonization ship

for RobertDyck .... this showed up in the feed on Edge this evening ...

The Top 3% of freelance Unreal Engine developers for Hire
Toptal is a marketplace for top Unreal Engine developers and coders. CEOs, CTOs, and management at top companies and start-ups work with Toptal Unreal Engine freelancers to augment their development teams for Unreal Engine development, app development, web development, and other software development projects to achieve their business needs.
Hire a Top Unreal Engine Developer Now
We’ve been blown away

I assume Unreal Engine must have a cookie on my system, somewhere.

Regardless, the ad for developers was surprising ...

Oh ho! in the fine print, I see that the ad is directed at companies that might be hiring Unreal Engine developers.

Now why would the AI think ** that ** ???

(th)

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#798 2021-08-18 06:57:20

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 12,063

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For the record .... The most recent post to this topic by RobertDyck is dated: 2021-08-04 20:29:08

Today is 2021-08-18 .... A pace of one substantial post to this topic per week would help to bring an idea to reality.

The elements of the plan/concept can be saved in storage owned by Mars Society and managed by RobertDyck.

That could happen at any time.  The sooner it happens, the better.

(th)

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#799 2021-08-18 14:45:33

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,343
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

Looked at ways to extract pure urea from concentrated human urine. After the electrolysis cell has extracted salt. Not so easy, will need work. Temptation is just don't, transport diammonium phosphate as yeast nutrient. But part of my life support design objective is what happens if an Apollo 13 style accident happens it otherwise free return is necessary. 6 months from Earth to Mars then 18 month return, so up to 24 months in space. A Venus flyby could reduce return to 11 months if there's sufficient manoeuvring propellant. Remember this is an emergency recovery, not normal operation, so various things could have gone wrong. But that's still 17 months in space. With 1,000 passengers onboard.

My design recycles oxygen and water. Vegetables for the salad bar are grown in aquaponics onboard so they don't run out. Tilapia fish won't run out. Flour is synthesized so bread, pancakes and waffles won't run out. Starch is a byproduct of oxygen generation so won't run out. White sugar is made from starch so won't run out. Molasses is needed to make brown sugar from white sugar, and molasses is stored so will run out. Pancake syrup is made from water and brown sugar. Entrees will run out. Beer can be made onboard from water, white sugar, and a home-brew beer kit. Instead of cans it would be plastic bladders and larger size. Wine can be made with water, white sugar and a home-brew wine kit (box with bladder is grape juice concentrate). Whisky from beer kits, distilled. These kits come with their own yeast nutrient. All these kits will run out. But vodka is water, withe sugar, yeast nutrient, distiller's yeast, distilled. So vodka won't run out. On the observation deck we can grow juniper and botanicals in pots, to convert vodka to gin. Limited amount of gin, but made onboard.

We'll need yeast nutrient for various things made onboard. Important for the free return scenario.

::Edit:: Things that need yeast nutrient:

  • vodka

  • gin - made from vodka, juniper and botanicals

  • microbial oil - used as vegetable oil

  • soap / shampoo / laundry soap / dish soap - made from microbial oil

  • flour - mixture of starch from oxygen generator plus protein/lipids/etc from a special yeast

Last edited by RobertDyck (2021-08-19 13:26:02)

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#800 2021-08-19 13:55:23

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,343
Website

Re: Large scale colonization ship

One company is working on a yeast to produce vegetable oil to replace palm oil. That can be processed to make margarine. Depending how much is involved. Is it worth making on the ship?

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