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#676 2021-02-25 13:08:26

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,215

Re: Large scale colonization ship

It appears we have a business that is looking at building Orbital Assembly Corporation (OAC) recently unveiled new details about its ambitious Voyager Station, which is projected to be the first commercial space station operating with artificial gravity.BB1e1nGb.img?h=421&w=799&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f

https://gatewayspaceport.com/

fully equipped to accommodate up to 400 people. Assembly is scheduled to begin around 2025
Voyager will house 24 integrated habitation modules, each of which will be 65 feet long and 40 feet wide (20 by 12 meters). At near-lunar gravity, the rotating resort will have functional toilets, showers, and allow jogging and jumping in fun and novel ways.

"The prototype will produce a truss section roughly 300 feet [90 m] in length in under 90 minutes," Clements revealed during the live-streamed event. "DSTAR weighs almost 8 tons in mass, consisting of steel, electrical and mechanical components."

The company plans to construct a prototype gravity ring that will measure 200 feet (61 m) in diameter and will be engineered to spin up to create artificial gravity near Mars' level, which is about 40% that of Earth.

"The cost has been about $8,000 per kilogram [$17,600 per lb.] for a long time. But with the Falcon 9, you can do it for less than $2,000. And as Starship comes online, it will only cost a few hundred dollars."

Seems that if you live near the assembly design location that there is going to be some high tech engineering positions opening.

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#677 2021-05-08 17:25:18

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
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#678 2021-05-16 11:02:09

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,907

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re topic updates

The most recent addition to this topic was from SpaceNut: 2021-05-08 19:25:18

I'm hoping this topic will continue to develop, and that it will bend toward Real Universe practicality and Achievability.

To the best of my knowledge, you have this niche all to yourself, but times-a-wastin', and if the ideas encompassed in this topic are not brought forward then inevitably someone else will decide this is worth doing and then you'll have reason to object that you thought of the idea (and published about it) first.

I recommend you contact the Office of the Prime Minister to invite them to ask the public of the Nation if they would like to invest in a project to put Canada at the forefront of Space Transportation to Mars.  ** Some ** nation is most definitely going to pull this off, and I see no reason other than failure of leadership for Canada to be left in the starting gate, along with so many other nations.

Canada is the **only** nation that has ** you ** as a citizen.  They just don't realize how lucky they are.  You can help!

(th)

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#679 2021-05-16 14:23:20

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,215

Re: Large scale colonization ship

The new topic fits well with this on as its dealing with need for Advanced food production

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#680 2021-05-20 06:46:00

tahanson43206
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Posts: 17,907

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck ....

In another topic you recently proposed increasing the passenger manifest for your design from 1200 with crew of 60 (working from memory) to 1600 passengers.

This density seems (to me at least) far beyond what humans can tolerate ... I tried to show you what your original design would look like, by spending many hours preparing images of the floorplan drawn to scale, with individual human beings plotted on the plan at approximately the correct dimensions to show what the situation would be like for those individuals.  That density might be about right for a rave, but it seems (to me at least) unlikely to succeed with ordinary human beings for a six month trip, let alone a full 2 (Earth) years, which you ** must ** plan for.

However, there ** is ** a happy outcome for the idea you have suggested ...

It ** is **possible to build and operate a very close simulation of the Large Ship on Earth, in a location with sufficient space to build the structure I am about to describe.

The cabins would be as you have designed, and they would be distributed in a circular pattern exactly as you have designed.

However, for the simulation, the cabins would be oriented like the spokes of a wheel.

The entire assembly would be constructed to float in a circular channel of water, or it could even be floated in a small body of water such as a pond of the needed size.

The assembly would be rotated at 3 rpm as you have suggested.

The exterior of the construction could be fitted with lights to simulate the sky, accurate to the finest detail. I am inspired for this vision by the work of the creators of theskylive.com, which I view every morning to prepare the daily calendar post.

The view would be from the end of the cabin, so that the occupants of the cabin would see exactly what they would see if they were on board the vessel.

Given the slight modification I have suggested for your simulation, you could recruit passengers and crew to operate the facility as a completely enclosed shell, with only electronic communication with the outside world.

it might be possible for you to find a way to monetize this experiment.

I don't think the problems you are addressing are primarily engineering, although it is certainly true you would keep a set of engineers busy for months designing the details of your concept.

I think the ** real ** problem is going to be helping a population of 1600 people to remain sane inside a volume as small as your Large Ship for six months, let alone two (earth) years.

The Russians (and others) have carried out simulations of space flight for extended periods.  A video about one such experiment is available for your viewing in the 2020 Mars Society Convention YouTube collection.  The video describes an experiment with just (as I recall) four people (or perhaps a few more). The video presenter concludes with recommendations for keeping the crew engaged, but does report some disassociation from the outside world.

In reflecting upon the Russian study, and in considering the situation of 1600 people packed into your proposed volume for six months, I expect the challenges would be different.

If you can find a funder willing to take the financial risk of experimenting with a full scale simulation, you would accrue as a benefit exposure of your concept to a wide audience, because the funder would need to cast a wide net to find subjects willing to test their ability to endure the experience your vision would provide.

The Mars One experiment showed there are people willing to at least consider something as extreme as a Mars trip.

The Mars Society experiments with remote outposts demonstrates that there is a small population willing to test themselves in two week visits.

Your simulation, should you decide to pursue it, would be an entirely ** different ** level of test.

Occupants could bail out if they find themselves going mad, and many surely will.

The people on board your ship on it's way to Mars will NOT have that option.

Edit#1: Disney's Tomorrowland is a candidate location ... There could be a set of two of these systems ... One would be the "official" test site, with people enrolled for six months to two years, simulating passengers for one way, passengers for a touch-and-go, or crew.

The ** other ** would be an exact duplicate except the experience would be limited to one day.  Families would book cabins together, and experience one day of "flight", including meals, entertainment, exercise, chores (very important!) and down time.

Edit#2: I added f l o o r p l a n to the list of Search Terms in the layout

Use Interplanetary Transportation to refine the categories
Use S e a r c h t e r m (colon) a n d F l o o r p l a n as search terms, and author tahanson43206

Be sure to select Posts. or you'll just get the topic, which isn't much help.

I'd appreciate feedback from other registered forum members regarding this suggestion to promote the Large Ship concept.

If there is a reader of this post who is NOT a registered member, and would like to make a contribution, we have an app for that.

Check the Recruiting topic for details.

(th)

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#681 2021-05-20 13:52:53

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

tahanson43206:
I said this ship will consist of 16 pressure compartments. Each compartment divided with a pressure bulkhead into forward and aft sub-compartments. Each sub-compartment will have 4 standard cabins on each side of the corridor. So total of 16 standard cabins in each pressure compartment. The ship is separated into pressure compartments for safety. Ships at sea are divided into water tight compartments. If a puncture in the hull causes sea water to flood in, the water tight compartments limit what gets flooded, so the ship remains afloat. In space, pressure tight compartments ensure the entire ship does not decompress. If a large meteoroid punches a hole, the sub-compartment can be sealed, ensuring the rest of the ship does not decompress. But in terms of cabins: 16 compartments, each divided into 2 sub-compartments, each sub-compartment has 8 cabins. That's a total of 256 cabins. Crew have a compartment configured very similar to a standard passenger compartment, with cabins exactly the same size. Originally I thought of 60 crew, but using a standard pressure compartment for crew cabins, that resulted in accommodation for 66 crew. Luxury cabins were larger, a separate pressure compartment for them. Two luxury cabins that can be divided with portable walls. Each luxury cabin could be booked by passengers. A single luxury cabin could be configured as a "Royal Suite", using the floor plan and size for a suite from Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines. Or the same cabin could be configured as a 4-bedroom suite. Again, copying floor plan from a cruise ship. Or a luxury cabin could be divided into 2 "Owner Suites". Floor plan again from a cruise ship. Or an "Owner Suite" could be divided into 2 Premium suites. Or a Premium Suite could be divided into 2 Club Cabins.

I expect a typical pattern of passengers would result in 1,000 passengers plus 60 crew. Since there is one more cabin available in the crew compartment, with 6 bunks, we could expand crew by that many. However, if you configure every standard cabin as economy with 6 bunks, and have one passenger per bunk, and subdivide luxury cabins into their smallest cabin configuration, with maximum number of beds per cabin, and fill every queen-size bed with 2 passengers, then that results in 1,600 passengers plus 66 crew. Yes, I expect normal configuration to be 1,000 passengers plus 66 crew. However, "maximum" if you cram passengers in like sardines would be 1,600 passengers plus 66 crew. Ask any operator of any ship if they ever sail with the maximum number of passengers that the ship could technically carry. Their answer will be "No".

I have shown you what a third class cabin looked like around the year 1900. That includes 1880 through the late 1920s. An economy class cabin of this spaceship is based on that. Exactly the same size. But while third class cabins a century ago did not have washroom/restroom, every cabin of my ship does. I also posted pictures of economy class cabins of modern cruise ships, from February of 2020. It shows cabins of exactly the same size. This is what the least expensive cabins look like. Yes, marketing for cruise lines will show much larger and much more expensive cabins, because they want you to spend more. But not all cabins are that big.

I also said a standard cabin on this ship can have furniture configured a number of ways. Yes, you can book a single bunk in a cabin with strangers. Or book a whole cabin for your family. Or book a whole cabin just for yourself. Cost of a cabin is the same regardless how many people are in it, and regardless of furniture.

I expect mostly standard cabins with a few expensive luxury cabins, because most people are not rich. And an interplanetary ship is very expensive.

I have posted images of the Apollo LM. It's a hell of a lot more cramped. And Mars Direct habitat. My ship has a lot more space. And a modern commercial passenger jet with economy class seats. This ship is not a luxury cruise ship, it's a passenger transport. Most importantly, I posted floor plans of a trans-Atlantic passenger ship from the time before trans-oceanic aircraft. It's exactly equivalent to what this is. Do I have to re-post those images?

::Edit:: I also posted floor plans of the SpaceX Starship. My ship has more space than that.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2021-05-20 17:09:40)

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#682 2021-05-20 14:39:55

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
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Posts: 7,836
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

Post #408

RobertDyck wrote:

Compare to the SS City of New York. That ship was launched in 1888, broken up in 1923.
Displacement: 17,270 tons (17,550 tonnes)
or 10,508 "Gross Register Tons". Wikipedia has a description what GRT means. Deck plans dated 1908 say 10,799 tons.
Length: 560 ft (170 m)
Beam: 63 ft (19 m)
Complement: 1740 passengers
Crew: 362 Officers and crew

I proposed fewer crew because our ship would have fewer passengers. And 21st century automation. For one the entire department of "donkey men" is not needed; they shovelled coal into the boiler of the steam engine. Mail sorting is not needed, we have smartphones with text messages and email. Laundry is simpler with automatic washing machines. We don't need a library, we have laptop computers and smartphones that can access an onboard server. And certainly don't need a smoking room.

deck plans:
sMY-aC7aX6ufDYPYGXCmkLpbIk0L_gVePGfwB1t802Y.jpg?auto=webp&s=f718cb043156190a7809bf2709f5c39d237cf309

Large blank white areas are not for passengers. They are ship engines, coal storage (this ship burned coal), cargo hold, crew cabins, etc. White oval areas of upper two decks are smoke stacks. White rectangular areas on upper two decks are air intakes.

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#683 2021-05-20 17:23:41

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,215

Re: Large scale colonization ship

Nasa formal process of procurement
https://www.nasa.gov/office/procurement
https://code200-external.gsfc.nasa.gov/ … nt-process

https://osbp.nasa.gov/docs/event-presen … tation.pdf

https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/file … _guide.pdf

This guide is intended to promote NASA-wide implementation of best practices for debriefing offerors. It is also designed to offer a set of uniform reference materials that include perspectives and guiding principles in addition to debriefing practices and policies. The guide is intended to promote consistent debriefing approaches within NASA while recognizing that the Federal Acquisition Regulations (FAR) provide contracting officers with extensive discretion in conducting debriefings.

It appears that we need to boil the topic into a summary of interest to seek out a request to get it built.

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#684 2021-05-20 18:01:57

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,907

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re multiple decks of 1910 passenger ship ...

It is unreasonable to compare your ship to the preliminary ideas of the SpaceX team ...

it ** is ** probably reasonable to compare your design to the 1910 passenger vessel.

I have done all I could think of to try to help you to understand what you are creating.  It is one think to work numbers on paper, and another thing entirely to live in the results of your handiwork.

The population of 1060 people, positioned approximately equally throughout the space you have described, would be able to stand that situation for about two hours, provided you have entertainment, food and drink.  After about two hours, the population will become restive.

After a day, the population will become more than restive.

***
Meanwhile, Oldfart1939 needs a way to move his 17 person expedition and all their supplies and equipment to Mars.  Your design has so many advantages over a simple Starship I would expect it to be viewed favorably by funders, if you can make adjustments appropriate to the mission.

Over in the Companion to the 17 person topic, I have cited an example of an Antarctic expedition carried our relatively recently.  The support ship had a total population of about 120 people.  The expedition staff were in that number.

Your vessel design could be outfitted to support a landing party of 17, and remain in orbit until the expedition is ready to return home.

Oldfart1939 has not yet agreed to the suggestion that he delegate responsibility for delivery of people and equipment to Mars, but I'm hoping he will be willing to at least consider the idea.

(th)

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#685 2021-05-20 18:17:03

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,215

Re: Large scale colonization ship

Its actually is

Oldfart1939 wrote:

Thomas, here it is!

I am suggesting as a first Starship Mission to the Red Planet Mars and having a crew composition of 17 astronauts

This is based on the "Triad concept," and a somewhat military style organization. There will be a relatively loose hierarchical structure, but there needs to be a leadership pyramid established before anyone sets foot inside a Starship.

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#686 2021-05-20 18:31:47

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,907

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For SpaceNut re #685

Thanks for the reminder .... RobertDyck can design for the possibility that Elon's vision won't pan out. 

Oldfart1939 appears to have selected the SpaceX vision as a foundation for planning, and that is a great way to start an effort of the magnitude of the one he's defined.

However, others are free to see if their concepts might come in handy.  I think having Mars gravity for six/eight months will look pretty good to a lot of people, down the line.

(th)

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#687 2021-05-20 19:43:47

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
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Posts: 7,836
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

I don't see this competing with SpaceX Starship. It competes with Starship 2. Elon said in a tweet that the next ship after Starship would be twice the diameter and twice as high. Yea, that's hardly a detailed plan. But my ship requires cargo Starship to carry parts to Earth orbit for assembly. It will require tanker Starship for propellant. And will require passenger Starship to shuttle passengers from the surface of Earth to the Large Ship in LEO. Furthermore, another passenger Starship on Mars to carry passengers down to the Red Planet.

So I don't see this competing. This complements what Elon is doing, and scales it up.

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#688 2021-05-20 21:25:19

RobertDyck
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

Last February I bought a video card, increased memory of my computer, and I have a power supply from a past job that's enough for the video card. I was going to model the ship using Unreal Engine so you could virtually walk around inside. However, it turns out the used computer I got a couple years ago is an HP with a proprietary power supply and proprietary connector. So the power supply isn't compatible. *Expletive*

The Canadian government has created a new subsidy for COVID. Last spring/summer they paid anyone with income drastically reduced due to COVID. It was only good through September. I thought it ended. Turned out opposition parties pressured the government to renew it. Conditions are a little different, but I qualify. My income each 2-week period is either zero, or less than 50% of what it was before COVID. Should I invest in some new computer equipment? I still have my old computer, I just transferred the hard drive to this used one. I could get a new motherboard / CPU / memory combo, ensure it's compatible with the video card and power supply and my old case.

Tom is worried this ship is too cramped / crowded. With a main dining room with buffet and 300 seats, and 2 other dining rooms with 50 seats each, and "luxury" dining room with 20 seats, and a bar, and 2 observation decks, and a Mars simulation deck, and zero-G hub? And bridge, and sick bay, and kitchens, and 3 greenhouses, although those normally off-limits. And Wifi throughout the ship, with ship servers to mirror YouTube and streaming services, and Kindle books, and technical reports. And online training. Various online computer games. Observation decks will have a couple telescopes, free for passengers to use. Passengers with skills could provide lectures: skills you'll need on Mars, engineering or technical training, and of course an astronomer to provide a tour of the sky.

I attended an event of the local chapter of the Royal Astronomical Society of Canada (RASC) in a park many miles from any city/town. An astronomer gave a tour of the sky. Summer night, not a cloud in the sky, pitch black sky without any light pollution. It was amazing! This guy really knows his stuff! I swear he was more knowledgeable than presenters at the Planetarium. And it's not some projection on a planetarium dome, it's the real sky! On a ship in space, we gotta do that!

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#689 2021-05-21 11:44:56

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
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Posts: 7,836
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

atfhopp.gif
Welcome to the interplanetary spaceship TIU. The Homestead Company's premier interplanetary spaceliner. We are about to depart on our journey to the colony world of Mars. A new world, a fresh start, room to grow! The TIU is about to depart. For the next 6 months you will experience space travel at it's most luxurious. Food, fun, friends.

I'm sorry we don't have or Jennifer Lawrence or Chris Pratt, but we do have your family. We don't have hibernation, but we do have the most amazing experience of your life!

Welcome to your cabin, your home until we make landfall. Over the next 6 months you'll prepare for your new life on Mars. Meet your fellow passengers, take skill building classes, and learn about colonial living. You've been assigned to learning group 38, for passengers with engineering and technical trade skills. Please scan your ID to confirm luggage delivery. Enjoy the rest of your voyage on the TIU, a Homestead Company spaceship.

Good morning one and all. It's a beautiful morning on the spaceship TIU. Whatever you do, don't get homesick, get Homestead. Let's start things off with one of my favourites back on Earth. <music plays>

<Enter medium size dining room, with no food service. Configured as classroom> Video: Hello passengers. Will you all please take a seat. Learning group 38. Your introduction to colonial life. Earth was a prosperous planet, the cradle of life. But it's also overpopulated, overpriced, overrated. Hold all questions to the end please. The colonies offer an alternative. A better way of life. And there's no colony more beautiful than Mars, the jewel of the occupied worlds. We're all on the spaceship TIU. There are one thousand passengers and 66 crew members. We're all in this together.

Mars is the fourth planet in the Sol system. We're in transit from Earth to Mars. We will arrive in 5 months and 25 days. The ship will aerocapture into Mars orbit, then aerobrake 3 days later into parking orbit.

I'm sorry we don't have an android bar tender. Even better! We have a live bar tender! A brew pub, with 100 litre fermenters behind the bar where we brew your beverages fresh. Your bar tender is your brew master, so thank him/her for your excellent beverage.
Xnw.gif 292855_original.jpg

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#690 2021-05-26 07:44:34

tahanson43206
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Posts: 17,907

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re topic ...

A few (Earth) days ago you mentioned upgrading your computer system(s) at home ....

I think it's time for you to begin working on detailed plans for components to be integrated into your vision at some point.

The cabins appear to me to be the basic element of your vision.   I would prefer you make them independently space worthy, so they can serve as lifeboats in case of an accident, but (recalling from memory) your vision was for more than one cabin to be assembled into standalone packages that can survive in space if necessary.

I'm sure there are advantages to your preference (if I am recalling it correctly) so they'll become apparent as the topic progresses.

What I'd like to see would be drawings that would permit a builder on Earth to assemble a prototype that could be visited by interested parties.

I'm quite interested in seeing the on-Earth prototype of the entire ship laid out in a circle as described in an earlier post.

You'll be able to enlist 1060 people to spend two years in an accurate simulation of your vessel without endangering more than their mental health, which can be eased by releasing them from the confines of the habitat complex.

Does your new hardware have the ability to support Fusion 360 (just one example of many).

(th)

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#691 2021-05-26 09:30:12

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

Well, still haven't upgraded. I think I posted this, but bought equipment in February, then discovered a problem. The "new" computer I got a couple years ago was a used HP. It has a proprietary power supply connector. So the new power supply with standard connectors won't work with this motherboard. The video card requires more power than the stock power supply can provide. The new power supply is salvaged equipment from a job, but works and it's 850 watts. I upgraded memory from 4GB to 16GB, ensuring it's compatible with my motherboard. But if I get new everything, it won't be compatible with my new memory. So now what?

This is a hand drawing I made some time ago. I envision pressure compartments, each divided into two sub-compartments. One sub-compartment could decompress, the other will remain pressurized. Stainless steel floor and ceiling. Floor is outer hull, ceiling is a pressure deck separating cabins from the upper deck. A single sub-compartment must be able to decompress without affecting the upper deck, or the other sub-compartment, or adjacent compartments. Large meteoroids are rare, no space station has suffered decompression due to a meteoroid strike, but this is a safety feature just in case. Walls between cabins within a sub-compartment are light-weight composite, based on light-weight composite cabins from the cruise ship industry. Cabin manufacturer website claims their cabin walls are actually more rigid and more sound proof than traditional metal cabin walls.
kFu65wI.jpg?1

Each cabin has independent life support: regenerable CO2 sorbent, oxygen generator, regenerable odour control (activated carbon), urine processor, water processor. Toilet has built-in bidet (washlet) so no toilet paper. The toilet will vacuum desiccate feces, then rock-hard dry feces is ground in a garburator, the powder blown through a waste pipe with auger for disposal. Recovered moisture from feces is filtered, then that water directed to the water processor. Shower has built-in recycling. A cyclone water filtration system, similar to cyclone vacuum cleaner but for water, will do first processing. Then water is sent through a traditional filter. Result comes back out the shower head. I got this shower from a web page describing something a UK design student invented. 70% of water that goes down the drain, comes back through the shower head. The other 30% goes to the water processor. Point-of-use electric water heater.

The sunward hull will have a water wall. This is 10cm (4") thick. The bladder has 2 pockets: potable water, and grey water. Output from the cabin water processor is grey water; almost but not quite potable. This means if someone has a long shower, water is drained from the water wall. But water that goes down the drain goes through the cabin water processor, then into the grey water pocket. So total volume of water in the water wall does not change. It simply goes from one bladder pocket to the other. The water wall acts as radiation shield. This is shadow shielding, making the entire habitation ring a radiation shelter.

The pressure compartment has one unit on the roof. For the upper deck, this will appear as a closed box. This unit will perform final water processing, converting grey water into potable. As well as air conditioning equipment (compressor), and batteries to store power from solar panels. Each pressure compartment will have solar panels hanging from the sunward wall, providing shade for the radiators as well as power for the ship. Note: one unit per compartment, which means all 16 cabins share one unit, and one water reservoir (water wall).

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#692 2021-05-26 10:25:53

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,907

Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re #691

Excellent!  I'm glad I asked !!! The connector problem **should** be solvable, even given the limitations of this medium.

I've assembled a number of computers and modified others over the years.  In one case, I needed a different power supply to work with a proprietary board. I've forgotten the details now, but am confident if ** I ** could pull it off, ** you ** CERTAINLY can.

The procedure I would like to offer as an opening gambit is:

1) Determine the number of connecting wires that run from the old power supply to the system board.
2) Buy a connector adapter strip (bakelite case with screws at each end of the metal strips across the case)
3) Find the purpose of each wire in the collection
4) Find the corresponding wire in the new power supply
5) Connect the corresponding wires.

You (?probably) don't want to damage the connector from the new power supply.

The first direction I would look is to find (if one exists) a power cable extension for a standard power supply.

If such a cable exists, then adapting it for this situation should be straight forward.

***
Thanks for returning the cabin layout to the forefront of view for the forum audience (whatever it is now it will be greater later).

I'd like to see that vision translated into a form that an existing mobile home manufacturer (or mobile camping vehicle) can use to build a replica that can operate on Earth in a simulation of the Large Ship.

What I'm going for here is a chance for you to make a buck (because you're still in the age range where that is a motivator)  ** and ** achieve a (potentially) global visibility for your concept.

The entertainment/challenge environment I attempted to describe a few posts back is the kind of situation that even Louis should be able to support.

Louis, I'm tossing your name into the ring here in hopes you are inspired to encourage RobertDyck to seriously consider unleashing his long term idea for short term income (which would have a valuable information gathering function).

(th)

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#693 2021-05-27 12:30:10

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,836
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

Watching Robert Zubrin's talk on TEDx in Moscow. He said stopping radiation from a solar flair requires 12cm of water. I read the water wall for the Lunar Gateway is being designed with 10cm water. That's where I got the 10cm water wall for my ship. So the water wall must be 12cm? Ok, let's do that.

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#694 2021-05-27 16:26:08

GW Johnson
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From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 5,573
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

I said 15 to at most 20 cm,  several years ago,  based on NASA's own radiation site. 

GW


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#695 2021-05-27 23:17:00

kbd512
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Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 7,564

Re: Large scale colonization ship

Robert,

For a ship of this size, why can't we use active shielding techniques?

If the ship loses power, everyone aboard dies anyway, much faster than even a SPE could accomplish that, so is it safe to assume that there will or at least should be more than enough power to do active shielding?

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#696 2021-05-28 04:30:05

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,836
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

I want the ship to have active shielding. But realize a mini-magnetosphere has limits. I expect it will reduce radiation to equal protection of Earth's magnetosphere, so passengers travelling to Mars will experience the same radiation as ISS. Cutting radiation to 1/3 is pretty good. But an SPE will overwhelm a mini-magnetosphere.

So let's calculate mass. The water wall is a shadow shield, providing protection for the entire width of the habitation ring. A pressure compartment is 4 cabins wide @ 2.4 metres per cabin = 9.6 metres wide. Each cabin is 2.43 metres high (8'). At 12cm thickness (using Robert Zubrin's figure) that gives 2.79936m³. Mass of water: 1ml = 1cc = 1cm³ mass 1g. 1 litre mass 1kg. 1m³ mass 1 tonne. So that's 2.79936t water per pressure compartment. Actually, I shouldn't calculate that precisely because it isn't flat. This is a curved section, ceiling isn't as long as the floor.

In post #660 of this thread I said radius to the floor of the habitation ring is 37.6992 metres. Area of a circle is πR². Ceiling is 2.43m so radius to ceiling is that much less radius. So area of water wall is π(37.6992)² - π(37.6992 - 2.43)² = 557.0458842m². Volume = area * 0.12 = 66.8455m³. Mass = 66.8455t.

Ps. π is supposed to be lower case Greek letter Pi. When I paste into Firefox to post, it doesn't look quite right. How does it show on your computer?

Can we make the water wall thinner if we use mini-magnetosphere as well? Should I use the thicker number that GW posted? I'm assuming a mini-magnetosphere is equally effective as Earth's magnetosphere. Is that true?

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#697 2021-05-28 06:31:38

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,907

Re: Large scale colonization ship

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/zero … 10268.html

Short-term microgravity (the prototype was only weightless for 20 seconds at a time) is just a limited test, of course, and it already helped shake out an issue with the device that they're working on. But the next test might be a longer-term installation aboard the ISS, the denizens of which would no doubt like to have a working fridge.

While the prospect of cold drinks and frozen (but not freeze-dried) meals is tantalizing, a normal refrigerator could be used for all kinds of scientific work as well. Experiments that need cold environments currently either use complicated, small scale cooling mechanisms or utilize the near-absolute-zero conditions of space. So it's no surprise NASA got them aboard the microgravity simulator as part of the Flight Opportunities program.

Analysis of the data collected on the flights is ongoing, but the success of this first big test validates both the approach and execution of the space fridge. Next up is figuring out how it might work in the limited space and continuous microgravity of the ISS.

P/S >> RobertDyck ... note in Housekeeping

(th)

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#698 2021-05-28 08:51:35

kbd512
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Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 7,564

Re: Large scale colonization ship

Robert,

Your selected "Pi symbol" looks like a decreased font size version of the upper case letter on my machine.

I think the water wall size should be sized to the fresh and waste water systems that the crew and passengers require for the voyage, and 1,000 people will need quite a bit of water.  67t of water only amounts to 67kg of water per person for all uses.  For a 6 month voyage, the atmosphere and waste water recycling had better be remarkably efficient.

As you noted, a mini-magnetosphere would provide supplemental protection against SPE and GCR.  I still think it's important for crew health, because unlike the passengers, the crew will serve aboard this ship for many years.  Regular civilian ships on Earth don't have sailors who serve for 4 years and then call it quits.

Incidentally, some recent discoveries were made, with respect to blocking neutrons and low energy gamma rays, using Iron Oxide powder impregnated polymer.  That trimmed about 30% off the mass of radiation shielding for satellite electronics.

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#699 2021-05-28 13:01:17

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,215

Re: Large scale colonization ship

If you are doing recycling the balance of the waste water to fresh will not be balanced so maybe its got to be a three tank system....
Fresh, awaiting recycling and waste not recyclable.

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#700 2021-05-28 13:36:18

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,836
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

"Waste not recyclable" will be piped away from cabins. And that will be limited. Urine won't necessarily require as much water removed as ISS, because it'll be further processed by life support on the second level. Salt removed, recycled. Some urine "aged" as fertilizer for hydroponics. Remaining urine will have all remaining water removed, then waste containers attached to the outside of the hub. Recovered water can be piped back to cabins, or to kitchens. There will be a water balancing/sharing system.

Feces will be desiccated to dry powder. That powder piped to the aforementioned waste containers. Those waste containers will provide radiation shielding for the deep-space end of the zero-G hub. And as GW Johnson suggested, the waste containers can be separated in Mars orbit, brought down to the Mars surface to supply fertilizer for greenhouses.

Mini-magnetosphere will be apple shaped: pinched in at the poles. This will accelerate trapped ions toward the magnet. If the magnetic field is axial with the ship, that means the engine and propellant tanks pointed straight at the Sun, taking most of the radiation. But some radiation will be drawn back in at the hub. Waste containers on the hub will provide shielding.

Ps. Hub and zero-G cargo hold must be vacated during SPE.


CCnew2_08_12.jpg
Image above: mini-magnetosphere experiment in vacuum chamber at CERN. This shows a plasma stream with magnetic field poles oriented into the stream, just as the Large Ship will.

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQm9WN9pAu69oMjvxb8NtHEpo3la1e9HcUrgYYw9dGp1PuGLQv465onjdI-h_2zvbLR0BU&usqp=CAU
Image above: schematic of mini-magnetosphere. Do we need a quartz tube passing through the axis of the ship? Or can this work with separate injectors at each pole?

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