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#551 2020-11-24 12:14:03

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

Cruise-ship workers reveal the grueling schedules they must keep while on the job

  • Cruise-ship employees have demanding schedules.

  • Rather than working traditional five-day weeks, cruise-ship employees often work seven days a week for the duration of their contracts, which can range from about two months to 11 months.

  • The hours can also be intense, from eight to nearly 20 hours a day.

  • But the flip side of their grueling work schedules is long, uninterrupted blocks of vacation time between contracts, often about two months.

I was thinking a passenger working for a discount ticket price would work 8 hours per day, 5 days per week. Which you can see is less than regular crew.

Although lecturers work less; when I was an evening instructor at Red River College, I taught 4 classes one term, which regular day instructors said was a heavy load. That involved one lecture per week, 3 hours. When I attended university in the 1980s, each class was 3 lectures per week @ 50 minutes each (Mon/Wed/Fri), or 2 @ 75 minutes (Tue/Thu), plus one lab per week @ 3 hours. That's 1 hour less time to walk between classes. Computer software courses had large assignments rather than labs, computer rooms open 24/7. I created a schedule for dining rooms, 2 hour time slots. So a lecturer giving a 2 hour lecture (less setup / clean-up time) two or three times per week would be expected.

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#552 2020-11-24 13:37:30

SpaceNut
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

Will alternating times for mess room use we can definitely make use of the areas rather than eating up valuable room in the design of the ships layout.

Once the crew and passengers land on mars I would think that this combination of chores (that to which benefits all) and work {paid for reason that you are going} would continue to offset the costs for a round trip journey.

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#553 2020-11-24 15:03:23

RobertDyck
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

SpaceNut, yes. Dining room schedule includes 2 hours per 8-hour shift when not used for meals. They can be used for meetings or lectures at that time. Astronomy lectures can be done in an observation deck, with glass walls and ceiling. Talk about astronomy while sitting under real stars. In space the stars are visible 24/7. And remember, I said several dining rooms: one large room that seats 300, but has portable walls so it can be subdivided. Plus two medium rooms that seat 50 each. Plus one "fine dining" that seats 20 and has twice the floor area per seat, but the fine dining room would be dedicated to dining. Plus a bar, positioned adjacent to one of the medium size dining rooms. Probably don't want to lecture in a bar.

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#554 2020-11-24 15:34:33

tahanson43206
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

For those who may happen upon the post above without having read the earlier parts of the topic, please note that the vessel is rotating once every 20 seconds.   Astronomy could be done in a serious way by flying small mini-Hubble telescopes with the passenger vessel, and communicating with them using wireless Internet.

It was proposed recently (I ** think ** in the Mars 2020 Conference videos) that astronomy (serious astronomy) would be a key attraction for those embarking upon a trip to Mars.   The number of mini-Hubbles need not be limited to one.

(th)

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#555 2020-11-25 17:21:51

SpaceNut
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

Got to fix but I found this old topic Gravity Wheel - Is E=6*45^2, minimum solution?

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#556 2020-12-26 11:36:58

RobertDyck
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

For a while I had been thinking we could design the.gym over 2 decks, which would free enough deck space for a 16th full pressure compartment of standard cabins.

Watched theovie "Passengers" with my girlfriend on Christmas Day. I gave her Chromecast version 3. That movie was a demonstration. But I noticed the movie shows robots in a big ship. I'm still thinking a single live bartender, but the movie showed cleaning robots that are basically suped-up Roomba. More importantly the.movie showed robot table waiters. I suggested just one room for "fine dining" with just 20 tables, live waiters could service that. I said buffet for other dining rooms; but that still requires someone bus tables. Could we design a robot to bus tables? Doesn't have to look like ones in the movie, could be more like R2D2. Wheeled robot with arms and a "bus tub" for dirty dishes, and some sort of arm to wipe the table?
801223.jpg

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#557 2020-12-26 17:59:31

SpaceNut
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

I would imagine a protective cover over the dish pan tray that would be latched so as to keep its contents inside until its opened to place the next item for washing into it. Sure it could be attached to a robotic tray removal system that would bring it in from its central location in the dining hall to where it would be washed by machine as well...

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#558 2020-12-26 19:52:09

RobertDyck
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

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#559 2021-01-07 19:57:22

tahanson43206
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck ... the 2020 Convention Video #35 included a comment that reminded me of your Large Ship project ...

The presenter was talking about the human habitats, which (in their plan) would be held at half Earth sea level pressure, which comes pretty close to matching your specification (as I remember it).  They said they would increase Oxygen but did not specify the amount.  Along the way, they tossed out the observation that cooking time would increase, which I recall is a consequence of living at higher altitudes, such as Denver on Earth.  However, pressure cookers could be popular.  I do recall that baking time is also affected by pressure (from a weekly cooking show). 

These considerations would (presumably) have a bearing on planning for meal preparation on the Large Ship, as well as on Mars itself.

(th)

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#560 2021-01-07 19:59:59

SpaceNut
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

Nice batch of robotic images for the large dining hall cleanup and more in post 558....

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#561 2021-01-08 20:40:09

RobertDyck
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

Pressure cooker recipes, with experimental results. Includes mashed potatoes and baked potato.
Instant Pot & Pressure Cooker Recipes

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#562 2021-01-08 21:14:14

tahanson43206
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re #561

Thanks for the link to the web site this interesting couple put together!  I hope there are forum readers who are inspired to try some of those recipes!

I find myself bemused by the constant use of the word "Instant" when most recipes seem to run for an hour or more, but figure that might represent a reduction of cooking time without pressure.

In any case, it ** does ** seem reasonable (to me at least) to suppose cooking with pressure cookers would not be a major problem for ship kitchen staff or for Mars residents.  However, you are (as far as I know) the first person to take the issue on, in the context of either transportation to Mars, or living situation there.

I have no experience with pressure cookers, other than having seen them in stores.  I would imagine that in the case of Mars, it might be possible to set the cooker to Earth standard pressure, so that cooking times would the same as the Earth recipe.

Here I am venturing away from the need for pressure equal to Earth, by asking (out loud since I don't know) if roasting might take the same amount of time in a 1/2 bar atmosphere as it does in a 1 bar atmosphere.

Moisture would leave the roast more rapidly than it would on Earth, and that might not be all that helpful.

I asked Google, and it came up with a site that appears to offer reassurance about roasting ...

https://www.eatright.org/homefoodsafety … -altitudes

Add a Quarter
Moist heating methods for meat and poultry, such as boiling, simmering or braising, will take up to 25 percent more cooking time. For example, if you are simmering a roast at 325°F that would usually take two hours to cook at sea level, that same roast cooked at high altitudes at 325°F would require 2½ hours of cook time. Increasing cook time does not apply to oven-roasted meat or poultry; oven temperatures remain unaffected in high altitudes. Use sea-level cooking instructions for oven baking.

Increase Cook Time, Not Heat
Hiking up the temperature while boiling foods will not cook food faster. The liquid will simply boil away more quickly and food will dry out. The temperature of a boiling liquid cannot exceed its own boiling point, except when using a pressure cooker. Instead, increase the cook time.

Cover Your Food
Retain moisture in meat and poultry products or any boiled food by tightly covering the pan during cooking. To continue to keep foods moist, cover dishes after cooking.

Use a Food Thermometer
To avoid undercooking or overcooking meat, poultry and leftovers, especially in a high altitude environment, use a food thermometer to confirm internal temperature.

High altitude influences all forms of cooking from using a fryer, pressure cooker or wok to microwaving foods. Consult the USDA Food Safety and Inspection Service's guidelines for safe cooking at high altitudes for specific instructions for various methods of cooking.


Tags HomeFoodSafety Four Steps Cook

There is an interesting hint there that even pressure cooker recipes need to be adjusted for altitude.

This digression could lead to an entire topic devoted to cooking at Mars Standard Habitat Pressure.

Such an atmosphere could be simulated on Earth, and recipes tested by experienced professional cooks.

Perhaps the day will come when it would make sense to invest in such a study.

Edit #1: ... A quick check with Google confirmed that the atmospheric pressure at the top of Mount Everest is well under half of sea level pressure.

That means that there are likely to be a number of sites around the world where exact matching air pressure is possible, between the 1/2 bar Standard Habitat Pressure recommended for Mars and whatever is found on land at a suitable site.

The only requirement would be to add enough oxygen to reach the 2.7 psi value recommended by RobertDyck.

(th)

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#563 2021-01-08 21:49:47

RobertDyck
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

One recipe I experimented with is gel candies. Just fruit juice with starch cooked in two bite muffin moulds in a microwave oven. They're mild compared to commercial candies you can buy today (jujubes, winegums, etc) but simple and healthy. (No preservatives) I found they don't keep more than a day. If left more than a day in the fridge the juice separates from the starch. This could be useful for the ship because the oxygen generator will produce copious quantities of starch. The greenhouses may generate enough oxygen to reduce the chloroplast based oxygen generator, but still. We could grow berries in greenhouses. Would gel candies be desired/eaten?

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#564 2021-01-09 07:33:40

tahanson43206
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

For RobertDyck re #563

Thanks for sharing this interesting idea for healthy candy ...

I'd like to invite your consideration of adding the daily dose of vitamins and minerals to your confection ...

I'm not sure how well that would work, but it might be worth exploring ....

You've called for a chef to assist you with meal planning, but your introduction of this concept leads (me at least) to imagine you'd want a nutritionist in the food planning team.  Gel "muffins" might have a steady "sale" in a population of 1000, even without the nutrition aspect. 

SearchTerm:GelCandy
SearchTerm:Candy Gel

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 61#p175661

(th)

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#565 2021-01-09 11:21:19

SpaceNut
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

The scope of building from a lift capacity to size of parts?
Pieces to be assembled needs to be approached as the how many launch vehicles are needed to get it all up there?
How much time is needed to assemble the ship on orbit?
What are the safety needs to consider for manned assembly crews?
Whom should get such a contract to build and make the many pieces to be assembled?

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#566 2021-01-09 12:01:36

tahanson43206
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

For SpaceNut re #565

Neat list of issues to be addressed!

May I ask if you've considered off-Earth sources for the atoms needed for RobertDyck's ships?

It seems to me there is a general tendency in this topic to assume everything needed to build one of these vessels, let alone the fleet that is needed, has to come from Earth.  However, I'm hoping someone will come along to contribute a cost-benefit analysis to the topic.  I'm hoping it will turn out that harvesting material from an Earth-approaching asteroid or comet will prove cost effective.

Regarding assembly .... the direction I ** think ** RobertDyck was headed was toward remote teleoperation for construction of the ship. 

Again, nice list is issues!

(th)

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#567 2021-01-09 14:04:50

RobertDyck
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

I'm thinking of mining the Moon for aluminum. I gave a presentation at the Mars Society convention in Chicago in 2004 about smelting aluminum from anorthite or bytownite, two forms of plagioclase feldspar, igneous rocks found on Mars. Shortly after I found a company in Sweden is already doing it. I re-invented the wheel. Oh well, it works. Those minerals are also common on the Moon. Bring liquid nitrogen from Earth to make aluminum oxynitride. That's the strong window material invented for driver's windows of Abrams tanks. Ship spacecraft windows from the Moon to LEO to build the ship.

And mine a metal Near Earth Asteroid. Send to Earth bullion of gold/silver alloy as well as separate bullion of each of the platinum group metals. Enclose in an aeroshell made of Inconel 617 made from asteroid metal. No parachute, control thrusters, just a big hunk of metal falling out of the sky. Inconel is primarily nickel/chrome with some cobalt and manganese and just a touch of carbon and aluminum. Process the asteroid with the Mond process using carbon monoxide. Aluminum from the Moon. Carbon monoxide can be delivered as dry ice (CO2) and reacted with hydrogen on site to make CO. Hydrogen delivered as water ice. Source of ices: carbonaceous chondrite asteroid. The C-type asteroid can also provide rocket propellant

C-type asteroids may not have ice if close to the Sun. One astronomer said they have to be farther e Mars to still have ice. But surface spectra of both Mars Moons exactly match C-type asteroids so they might be ideal sources of propellant and ices.

Leftovers on the metal asteroid will me extremely pure iron, nickel, and cobalt. Not worth bringing back to the Earth. But they can be made into stainless steel 304L, the same alloy Space-X is using for Starship. Form the alloy at the asteroid, ship as billets. Build a rolling mill in LEO.

Considering the size of the Large Ship, all this infrastructure is worth it. Besides, sale of tonnes at a time of precious metal bullion can help fund construction.

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#568 2021-01-09 14:22:44

RobertDyck
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

Radiators on ISS are made of Inconel. Since the asteroid operation will make Inconel for aeroshells, billets can be sent to the rolling mill to make sheet metal and form that into radiators.

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#569 2021-01-09 14:31:09

SpaceNut
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

Sending up and creating the Lunar factories is a large undertaking since we will need a simular level of sending of resources to the moon with just as many issues as earlier laid out.

The question is what can be delivered and operated by remote none lunar locations for the mining and smelting to sheet materials?

What system of powering of these are delivered for use as that leads to future non human interactions with this early equipment that is sent?

Then what are you going to do about all of the wiring, plumbing and electrical plus electronics that we will need to make the ship a reality once the shell is built? Sure some of the aluminum will work for these but not all....

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#570 2021-01-09 14:54:10

RobertDyck
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

Building the ship will require a lot of stuff from Earth. I'm counting on the cargo version of Starship to make launch cost affordable. But that can be reduced by building the shell, windows and radiators from in-space resources. Propellant as well.

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#571 2021-01-09 15:04:40

RobertDyck
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

NASA has already designed some concepts for autonomous Moon miners. There's remote on Earth today. Canada was leading development of remote mining technology after a major mine cave-in. Unfortunately foreign interests bought all those companies working on this. Before they were bought out, Canadian companies had developed technology so operators could be in Toronto running underground equipment in Sudbury, communicating via encrypted signal over the internet. There's significant delay over the internet. Radio to the Moon is 1.28 second delay each way. More significant than internet?

Inco was working on a fully autonomous loader at the time they were bought by a Brazian company.

I think we can do remote operations.

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#572 2021-01-09 15:26:37

RobertDyck
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

Shall we return to food? I bought a bag of pea starch, did some experiments. Made gel candies with reconstituted frozen concentrated fruit juice. Tried with half as.much water as usual, and twice as much. It turned out best with exactly the usual amount. Tried with unsweetened orange juice, strawberry, raspberry, and grape. Also tried with blueberry, but most blueberry juice is mostly pear with just a little blueberry for flavour. The only pure blueberry juice was whole, and relatively expensive. But they all turned out well.

Offered them at the Mars hospital suite at the local science fiction convention in 2008. People liked them.

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#573 2021-01-09 15:30:50

RobertDyck
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

My girlfriend said my description of starch pudding sounds like custard. I originally called it "pea poi", but Hawaiian poi is made from tartow root, mine from pea starch. After bread yeast has grown in it and cooked in a microwave oven, it has flavour and aroma of freshly baked bread. If we can convince people to eat that instead of potato, we could reduce the greenhouse.

Ps, growing yeast adds some protein, lipids, and all B vitamins other than B12. So nutrition as well as flavour. Not as much nutrition as potatoes, but a more healthy food.

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#574 2021-01-09 16:09:22

RobertDyck
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

One task on Mars will be to build a facility to service the big ship. To mine Martian resources, manufacture parts for maintenance and repairs of the ship. Also grow food for the ship, for both directions. Expect very few passengers will return, so the return trip will be mostly crew and empty cabins. The ship will carry food for return, and food for full passenger complement back to Mars. Once that's in place, ticket prices can drop.

I said buffet food will be free for all passengers. (Read includes in your ticket price.) Meals in the fine dining room will be extra, as will be booze in the bar. Passengers in luxury suites get all meals and booze free. One implication is food for fine dining and booze can come from Earth, but buffet food from Mars.

Will that make buffet food vegan? Vegan plus fresh talapia fish from onboard aquaponics?

If vodka is made onboard from starch, and gin is made from that vodka plus juniper berries grown in pots on the observation deck, should they be cheaper?

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#575 2021-01-09 17:01:38

RobertDyck
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Re: Large scale colonization ship

My girlfriend also suggested raising rabbits for meat. Obviously not one of the vegan ladies. She suggested food scraps, uneaten food from dining room tables. Can tilapia eat that or does it have to formed into fish food pellets? Can rabbits eat it as is? She claimed rabbit droppings can be used as fertilizer without composting. Would passengers eat rabbit?
93010419_3010903262293869_2450625935855058944_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&ccb=2&_nc_sid=8024bb&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_ohc=_PBPOpirHG8AX8jUNfx&_nc_ht=scontent.fyyc2-1.fna&tp=14&oh=46c628071d6e468d724a9cc9f2952669&oe=601E8ADB

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