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#326 2024-01-30 19:59:12

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,057

Re: Colonizing / terraforming small asteroids

For Calliban re #325

Thank you for your review of the image, and comments on the carrier gas supply line.  I understand and appreciate your observations about feeding the carrier gas below the lamprey head, because the default would be to have the mouth of the device open and just pressing lightly on the regolith surface.  In that case (as you point out) some of the gas would naturally find it's way through the regolith and outside the rim of the lamprey mouth, carrying regolith with it to nearby space, where it would drift and get into everything.

An alternative is (perhaps) to design the lamprey mouth as a one-way device. That might be done with flaps (for example).  Once the flaps have closed on a quantity of asteroid material, the gas feed could be used to accelerate the gathered material toward the ring, where it would be collected.


Tomorrow I'll try to persuade CH4 to try to persuade DALL-E to show such a design for the lamprey head.  I'm not optimistic about success. It seems to me we are going to be pushing DALL-E in directions it may not want to go.

(th)

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#327 2024-01-31 09:35:24

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,057

Re: Colonizing / terraforming small asteroids

Today's work session with ChatGPT4 and DALL-E was interesting and surprising but not productive.

What we learned included confirmation that DALL-E has no concept of microgravity.

In attempts to tease DALL-E into showing a tool to collect sand, we were never able to find word combinations that were successful.

In one of the failures, set in space with absence of gravity specified clearly, DALL-E showed sand pouring out of a sieve.

In addition, CH4 and I had a long back-and-forth about whether DALL-E retains information between images.  The technical writers at OpenAI who prepare instructions for CH4 are NOT the developers.  The technical writers are told what the developers were intending to do, and what actually happens is not necessarily the same as what was intended.  I have seen this in practice, and I suspect that OpenAI is not different from other IT organizations.

In this case, I am increasingly convinced that DALL-E retains information in it's neural network if it is working with a single client in a series of exchanges.  CH4 is adamant that it's documentation says that this should not be happening, but I have pointed out to CH4 a number of instances where it obviously ** is ** happening. CH4 rightly points to changes we make in the English language of the prompts.

As an experiment, we gave DALL-E the exact same prompt that resulted in the successful image we have above. In the replay, the results were so different they cannot be used, but more telling, the inset shows the head of the lamprey and not the base.  We had ** just ** asked DALL-E to show the head of the tool in another experiment, and DALL-E clearly remembered that request and ignored the request in the current prompt. CH4 grudgingly conceded that it is dependent upon the work of documentation writers.   We closed the session with agreement to try again another day.

(th)

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#328 2024-01-31 20:30:02

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,057

Re: Colonizing / terraforming small asteroids

The evening work session started with an idea ... there is a kind of machine used to move small trees from a nursery to a permanent home.

The machines I have seen come in various sizes, but the ones I remember have three spades driven by hydraulic rams, able to completely enclose the ball of the tree and lift it out of the soil with the root ball intact.

ChatGPT4 seemed to know the concept, but I suspect it does not have detailed "knowledge" ... this particular machine would not have been on anyone's mind to be included in the training data.

We made a couple of tries that were too far from the goal to be worth considering for the forum. However, the third try is just interesting enough to be thought provoking.

DALL-E 3 Image Generation Prompt

Visualize a tree spade machine on a lawn, with three triangle shaped metal spades positioned at 12 o’clock, 4 o’clock, and 8 o’clock around a small tree. The blades are positioned to drive into the earth to enclose the root ball. The machine is modest in size and equipped with hydraulic pistons to drive the sharp blades into the soil. The scene captures the tree spade in action, emphasizing the process of enclosing the root ball of the tree for relocation.

I'll link the image here: KupjZVO.png

I suspect DALL-E used the 8 o'clock parameter as a count of the spades. 

In any case, NewMars members are noted for imagination, so it may be possible to imagine a set of three spades associated with the lamprey head shown earlier, to collect material and feed it into the gullet of the lamprey device. It is unlikely DALL-E will be able to render that image so I'm unlikely to try.

Here is an image of a Tree Transplanting Machine:
https://www.shutterstock.com/search/tre … -equipment

The link goes to a set of shutterstock images of Tree Transplanting Equipment

(th)

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#329 2024-01-31 22:05:00

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,057

Re: Colonizing / terraforming small asteroids

This evening work session was very short. I am hoping to learn a bit more about how to work with the dynamic duo of ChatGPT4 and DALL-E.

Prompt for DALL-E Image Generation:
A realistic 3D rendering of a simple cube resting on a flat plane. The cube is perfectly symmetrical with sharp edges and a smooth surface. The scene is well-lit, highlighting the geometric simplicity and the contrast between the cube and the flat plane beneath it. The background is neutral, focusing attention on the cube and the plane.

I'll put a link to the image here:JsnhcBB.png

Update: I found that the correct term for a tree moving machine is "tree Transplanting Machine".

There is a large collection of images of such machines on the Internet.  I opened a session with ChatGPT4 and it recognized the term, so we tried it with DALL-E but got a bulldozer back.  CH4 suggested trying to describe the machine in detail.  I am skeptical, because DALL-E does not recognize number measurements. It does seem to be able to count, but that ability is not reliable.

DALL-E can understand a clock face, but that ability is not reliable.

DALL-E can understand bilateral symmetry, and so far ** that ** ability seem reliable.

***
Today's work session, to investigate simple geometric forms, was cut short:

!
You've reached the current usage cap for GPT-4. You can continue with the default model now, or try again after 10:56 AM. Learn more

Here is the only prompt that has worked consistently so far:

A simple and clear outline of a square on a plain, flat background. The square is defined by thin, sharp lines, creating a minimalistic and precise geometric shape. The background is neutral and untextured, ensuring that the focus remains solely on the square's outline.

(th)

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#330 2024-02-01 20:56:09

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,057

Re: Colonizing / terraforming small asteroids

In this evening's work session, ChatGPT4 and I pushed (gently) on DALL-E to see how far we could get with simple geometric forms.

Exploration of Geometric Shapes with a Touch of Whimsy: A DALL-E Creation

Prompt Sent to DALL-E:
"An image featuring three simple and clear outlines of geometric shapes on a plain, flat background. On the left, an equilateral triangle; in the center, a square; and on the right, a circle. Each shape is defined by thin, sharp lines, creating minimalistic and precise geometric outlines. Between the triangle and the square, place a tiny Happy Face, and between the circle and the square, a winking face. The background is neutral and untextured, ensuring that the focus remains on the shapes and the faces."

Intent for the Image:
The goal was to create a playful yet simple visual narrative by combining basic geometric shapes with elements of whimsy, represented by emotive faces. This experiment aimed to see how such a combination would be interpreted and executed by DALL-E, exploring the balance between geometric precision and creative expression.

Observations:
DALL-E responded with an intriguing composition that not only included the requested shapes and faces but also introduced an element of depth, possibly hinting at a 3D perspective. The arrangement and sizing of the shapes led to an unexpected layout, showcasing DALL-E's tendency to expand creatively beyond the two-dimensional constraints specified.

This piece serves as a reminder of the unpredictable yet fascinating potential of AI in the realm of artistic creation, inviting viewers to ponder the intersection of mathematics, art, and technology.

A link to the image will go here: U4cUSQw.png

Notes on image ... DALL-E ** really ** wants to work in 3D.... the simple shapes specified were fancified with rails to make them three dimensional, without straying too far from the basic request.  DALL-E apparently does not know what a "happy face" is so it created the smile instead.

(th)

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#331 2024-02-01 22:40:57

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,057

Re: Colonizing / terraforming small asteroids

BARD's creators have given it the ability to create images.  I had a long conversation with BARD this evening, and came away encouraged to think it may be able to perform at a higher level than DALL-E.  I saved the entire transcript and can make it available (via Dropbox) if there is any interest.

Here is an image it created of a manipulator that might work with chunks of material such as ice, that will surely be found at an asteroid, in addition to the loose material that is present in abundance.

Bv04JUT.jpg

For reference, the transcript is saved on U64 for 78LMT#03 as 20240201FullSessionnAsteroidMining.

(th)

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#332 2024-02-03 08:55:31

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,057

Re: Colonizing / terraforming small asteroids

In  today's work session with ChatGPT4, I brought it up to date on BARD's new image software, and asked if it would be willing to try to persuade DALL-E to replicate the image.  This time it took only two tries to improve upon BARD's version.  I believe this design would work well in Calliban's asteroid/comet mining operation.

DALL-E 3 Image Generation Prompt

Visualize the same large industrial grasping tool on a moon-like landscape with a star-filled sky in the background, now poised above a large chunk of ice that matches the tool's size. The tool features six tongs and a hydraulic design, with jaws enclosed in a soft material suitable for grasping large chunks of ice. The scene captures the tool in action, emphasizing its scale and functionality in a celestial setting, with the terrain and sky beautifully rendered. The focus is on creating a visual harmony between the size of the tool and the ice chunk, showcasing the tool's capability to handle significant tasks in space.

Notes on image vs prompt: The first version had six tongs, and the second had four.  I suspect that the algorithm's built into DALL-E made the adjustment in number based upon the chunk of ice, which has four sides. 

Link to image goes here:
688HhbV.png

(th)

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#333 2024-02-13 20:40:08

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,078

Re: Colonizing / terraforming small asteroids

This seems to make the case for asteroids a bit better: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … e39e&ei=16
Quote:

Serving the Twin Cities

Discovery of Water on Asteroids Shakes Up Solar System Understanding: ScienceAlert Report
Story by Ella Bennet • 1h

Quote:

In the vast expanse of our Solar System, with over a million asteroids orbiting the Sun, scientists previously thought that any water on these space rocks would have vanished long ago. However, a groundbreaking study using data from the SOFIA infrared telescope has changed that perception by discovering water on the surface of two asteroids, Iris and Massalia.

The asteroid Iris, with a diameter of 199 km (124 miles), is significantly larger than the majority of other asteroids – placing it in the top one percent in terms of size. It takes a 3.7-year journey to orbit the Sun within the asteroid belt located between Mars and Jupiter, covering an average distance of 2.39 astronomical units.

Similarly sized, Massalia measures 135 km in diameter and orbits alongside Iris, sharing a similar trajectory within the asteroid belt.

Asteroids differ in composition depending on their proximity to the Sun. Closer to the Sun, ice-free silicate asteroids abound, while the ones further away tend to contain more ice.

Researching these asteroids provides clues to the early distribution of materials in the solar nebula, which preceded the formation of planets and asteroids, shedding light on the original makeup of our Solar System.

A little water is better than none.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-02-13 20:44:55)


Done.

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#334 2024-02-14 05:21:44

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,411

Re: Colonizing / terraforming small asteroids

Note that these detections are based on IR emissions from the surface regolith.  We are literally looking at the first nanometre of the asteroid.  The surface regolith is baked by the full heat of the sun and has endured aons of impact shock heating.  We won't know much about the water resources of asteroids until we can examine their interior rocks.


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#335 2024-02-14 07:20:59

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,078

Re: Colonizing / terraforming small asteroids

That is likely true, the assumption of more water at depth is not proven.

But we may suppose that asteroids puff up when impacted.  That is dust ejected might reaccrete over time.  So, there is a regolith tilling effect greater than for our Moon, if these worlds have a much lesser gravity.

This "May" give opportunity for protons from the solar wind to inject into the dust, and bring greater hydration to the materials of such an asteroid.

Just the tilling buries some previously hydrated material, and exposes new regolith to the solar wind.  If dust becomes orbital of the small world, it may acquire hydration and then reaccrete to the asteroid.  Smaller grains ejected to a solar orbit may in time accrete to that asteroid or another one again.

This may have gone on for very long periods of time.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-02-14 07:23:29)


Done.

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#336 2024-03-05 10:45:17

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,078

Re: Colonizing / terraforming small asteroids

(th) already covered this in a Fusion topic: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … 3025&ei=18  Quote:

n a breakthrough that paved the way for unlimited carbon-free energy, Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) engineers successfully tested a novel high-temperature superconducting magnet capable of generating a world-record 20-tesla magnetic field strength,

My interest in this is that such a magnet might be used to bond a spacecraft to an asteroid or a moon like Phobos or Deimos.

Having another look at Bennu: https://www.space.com/asteroid-bennu-wa … s-rex.html
Quote:

The new results, which Lauretta and his colleagues announced today (March 19), confirm and extend that recent discovery: OSIRIS-REx has now spotted the apparent signature of the iron-oxide mineral magnetite on Bennu's surface.

Magnetite is "typically indicative of very intense hydrothermal activity," Lauretta said.

Now to make sure it is understood that magnetite is magnetic in nature:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetite
Quote:

Magnetite is a mineral and one of the main iron ores, with the chemical formula Fe2+Fe
3+
2
O4. It is one of the oxides of iron, and is ferrimagnetic;[6] it is attracted to a magnet and can be magnetized to become a permanent magnet itself.[7][8] With the exception of extremely rare native iron deposits, it is the most magnetic of all the naturally occurring minerals on Earth.[7][9] Naturally magnetized pieces of magnetite, called lodestone, will attract small pieces of iron, which is how ancient peoples first discovered the property of magnetism.[10]

A robot craft with such a magnet might use the solar wind as part of it's propulsion to get to such an object.  Then using the magnet to bond to the asteroid.  There may be a result that magnetite is drawn to the device.  This could be made a good thing, as it might help insulate the magnet further, and might also produce a radiation shield, both the magnetic field and the shell of magnetite coating parts of the ship.  Obviously, some of the ship needs to not be coated.

In this process, electron beams could also create an electrostatic coating method as well.  Electrons could be pulled out of the asteroid and electron beams would shoot them away, causing the asteroid to develop a bit of a (+) charge.  The ship itself might be given a (-) charge relative to the asteroid.  This may help non-magnetic materials to collect on desired parts of the ship.

In the case of some small objects you might use two such devices to pin the asteroid between them, where they show opposite magnetic poles to each other.

There could be ways to fluidize the surface materials of a small world, to make them flow towards the one or two devices.  A pulsing magnetic field might do it.  Hopefully this would not damage the DC superconducting magnets.

If a binary magnetic field were established and even if you only had one field, you might be able to move manipulation devices and humans around using magnetic devices.  Of course at some point magnetic fields can be toxic to humans, so you would not want to make them too strong.

I think the danger could be managed: https://www.stanfordmagnets.com/are-mag … 00%20Gauss.  Quote:

1.    Is the Strong Magnetic Field Harmful to Us?
Most time not.

A strong magnetic field does no harm to the human body with cautious handling. According to British Pre-Standard No. 50166-1, there is no health risk to the human body in daily cleaning and handling if the magnetic field level is below 3000 Gauss [1]. Additionally, the negative effect of strong magnetic forces is also negligible, which is only 1/5 of the negative impact of television.

In line with this the asteroid redirect test has given me further thinking: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_As … ction_Test

As it fluidized a rubble moon, (Apparently), that technique might allow a device sent to the rubble cloud to get itself enveloped after a fluidization event by use of magnetic and electrostatic methods, and I suppose a tiny amount of gravitation.  This might be done with small objects like Bennu.

Possibly a modification might work for Phobos and Deimos.

In embedding a device into such a small world, it would be desired that only parts of the device be enveloped.

But the radiation shield might be rather food.  The Magnetics may protect to some extent and of course regolith may provide even more protections.

After envelopment, it might be possible to cover the regolith with something like netting or foil to further immobilize the materials.

And the method may also be used to process ores getting materials out magnetically,  Some materials may have magnetic properties, and some may have inductive reactance which also may allow magnetic separations.

Done

 

Last edited by Void (2024-03-05 11:27:32)


Done.

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#337 2024-03-05 11:45:25

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,057

Re: Colonizing / terraforming small asteroids

For Void re magnetic force to secure a space craft to an Asteroid....

You are quite literally the ONLY person alive on Earth in 2024 who thinks magnetic force might be used to secure a space craft to an asteroid.

However, there is a non-zero chance you might be right.

Please consider designing a ** Real Universe ** experiment to confirm or falsify your hypothesis.

The fact that we (or at least ** I ** ) have never seen this idea published anywhere except in Void posts means there is a strong negative mental barrier to the idea, which you have somehow overcome.

The gravity on a small asteroid is negligible, but perhaps a strong magnet might be able to achieve a measurable attractive force in an asteroid.

I think it is time to find out.

This is Calliban's topic ... Calliban ... what do you think?

It would ** definitely ** help with mining, if there is a way to anchor to an asteroid.

(th)

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#338 2024-03-05 12:03:54

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,078

Re: Colonizing / terraforming small asteroids

Calliban (th) and I request your skills.  Quote (th):

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,496
Email
For Void re magnetic force to secure a space craft to an Asteroid....

You are quite literally the ONLY person alive on Earth in 2024 who thinks magnetic force might be used to secure a space craft to an asteroid.

However, there is a non-zero chance you might be right.

Please consider designing a ** Real Universe ** experiment to confirm or falsify your hypothesis.

The fact that we (or at least ** I ** ) have never seen this idea published anywhere except in Void posts means there is a strong negative mental barrier to the idea, which you have somehow overcome.

The gravity on a small asteroid is negligible, but perhaps a strong magnet might be able to achieve a measurable attractive force in an asteroid.

I think it is time to find out.

This is Calliban's topic ... Calliban ... what do you think?

It would ** definitely ** help with mining, if there is a way to anchor to an asteroid.

(th)

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If a single magnet cannot sufficiently latch onto the magnetite in an asteroid then I say you can make a magnetic vice clamp, with magnets on opposing sides of the asteroid.  They would attract each other and can be rather large in size.
There are many schemes for magnets to propel spacecraft.

The method would also be useful to deflect asteroids, I think.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-05 12:08:52)


Done.

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#339 2024-03-05 13:04:32

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,057

Re: Colonizing / terraforming small asteroids

For Void re use of magnets to attract an asteroid ....

Your vision of how this concept might work deserves a closer look ...

I will look in the Physics topic, and if there is no post about magnetic force I'll add one.

You idea may have merit.

On the other hand, it seems possible you may not realize that magnetic force falls off as the cube root of distance, instead of the square root as with gravity.

I think it should be possible to determine how strong a magnetic field would need to be to enclose an entire 100 meter asteroid in a field strong enough to attract any iron atoms on the far side of the asteroid.  The analysis should be interesting to NewMars members, and to any NewMars readers who may stop in on occasion.

The magnetic field of the Earth reaches far into space, and it is sufficient to influence ions moving in the vicinity.  It also is sufficient to turn compass needles.

Your proposal should be of interest to members of NewMars forum who are adept at working with numbers.  If we are lucky, such a person may show up. If there is someone who would like to help out, and is not already a member, please see the Recruiting topic for procedure.

Your proposal may very well end up as actual hardware deployed to move asteroids with the appropriate material composition.  A person who is good with numbers and who is willing to devote the time and effort to providing an answer may very well exist on Earth in 2024. 

(th)

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#340 2024-03-05 14:01:55

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,078

Re: Colonizing / terraforming small asteroids

I may find a flaw myself.  For instance how will the pressure of the solar wind affect this.

But keep in mind that the fields I am talking about can be of km in size, very large.

They don't have to pull very hard on the magnetite, or the partner magnetic field very hard to give a pull that may matter.

You have insinuated that the field force falls off very quicky.  That is true.  But it is been suggested that such a field could be made to protect Mars from the solar wind.  Granted the cost of something of that size, is massive.  But the cost of something sufficient to encompass Bennu would be quit a lot smaller.

As for as force, it only needs to be small.  If you could accumulate mass from the asteroid into the devices, then you make them to have significant inertia.  An object of significant inertia can do manipulations of the asteroid materials without too much difficulty, I think.

As I have said, though I am concerned that the solar wind may pluck the devices from the asteroid.  I don't know yet if that is true.

But this does not replace or invalidate other. ideas.

I think I don't like that within months or a few years, previous ideas become a dogma.

But I reserve the property of perhaps not quite getting things right yet.

I think I have said I don't approve of binary contests to test the value of a thing.  This implies that there can only be one true solution to a problem.  It is sometimes necessary to do that, but not when it is not necessary.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-05 14:12:34)


Done.

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#341 2024-03-05 14:56:50

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,057

Re: Colonizing / terraforming small asteroids

For Void ... thank you for your continued interest in this idea of yours...

Words aren't best suited for further development ... I think you have done about all that can be done with words.

Let's hope that there is someone in the forum who has the ability to apply numbers to your idea.

You have postulated that a magnet might be constructed of sufficient strength to have a measurable pull on an atom 100 meters from the active end of a dipole.

Because the Earth shows that a magnet can have an effect on an ion hundreds of kilometers from the surface of the Earth, I deduce that a sufficiently strong magnet might be able to pull an atom at a distance of 100 meters.  What we (forum members) lack at the moment is a member with the math skills and understanding of the physics of magnetism to answer the question you have posed.

You can help by recruiting a person with the required skills.

(th)

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#342 2024-03-06 05:07:40

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,411

Re: Colonizing / terraforming small asteroids

Not quite sure what the question is.  Are you thinking of using a magnet to pull dust off of an asteroid?


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#343 2024-03-06 07:15:37

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,057

Re: Colonizing / terraforming small asteroids

For Calliban re #342

Thank you for taking up the question, imprecise as it was...

As I understand Void's idea, a powerful magnet would pull magnetic susceptible material towards itself, and thus bring all the nearby material along with it. Last night, I asked Bing/CoPilot to find an asteroid with a high metal content that is under 100 meters in diameter, and it found 2007 UN12 (if memory is accurate). I don't currently know the metal content of the asteroid, so don't know if any of the material is susceptible to magnetic force, but Bing/CoPilot points to a Wikepedia article for reference.

Because magnetic force falls off as the cube root of the distance, it will take a powerful magnet indeed to produce a net tug on material 40 meters away, but since the Earth itself shows that a magnet can have an influence hundreds of kilometers away, a distance of 40 meters seems achievable.

Bing/CoPilot ran out of gas after exhausting the opening allocation of 4000 "units" so I had to give up the investigation at that point.  However, it is conceivable (to me at least) that someone who has an understanding of the behavior of magnetic fields might be able  to compute the strength of a magnet that would have the ability to exert a 1 gram force on a 1 gram soft iron washer at a distance of 40 meters.

Whatever that strength is, it would have to be generated by a space craft flying in space, in order to establish a pull on the asteroid of interest.

All of this depends upon the magnetic susceptibility of the material inside the asteroid, and while Void seems to think there may be ore that is susceptible to magnetic force, we (humans) have no reason to expect there would be any of such ore inside any given asteroid.

Clarification of that point might require a visit to the asteroid of interest.  Spectroscopy might reveal the presence of suitable material, but that would be helpful only in characterizing the surface of the asteroid.

In short, while Void's idea seems bold far beyond ordinary human capability, it may in fact turn out to be correct.

(th)

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#344 2024-03-06 08:43:56

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,057

Re: Colonizing / terraforming small asteroids

For all ... pending replies from our human members, I have asked ChatGPT4 to consider the question posed by Void.

In the first round, CH4 informed me that the problem to be addressed is extremely complex, but it assured me it is willing to continue despite the difficulty. We agreed to approach the problem in small steps, and we will begin with selection of a material for the washer to be placed at 40 meters to test our magnet.  Here is an opening report:

Progress Summary on Magnet Asteroid Mining Discussion

We embarked on a fascinating journey exploring the utilization of magnetic forces for asteroid mining, specifically the idea of deploying a powerful magnet to attract magnetically susceptible materials within an asteroid. Our discussion focused on the theoretical challenge of calculating the strength of a magnet required to exert a gram of force on a soft iron washer located 40 meters away.

Understanding the Challenge:
- The inquiry began with the hypothesis that a powerful magnet could be used to attract atoms susceptible to magnetic forces within an asteroid, inspired by the Earth's magnetic field's ability to influence ions over vast distances.
- We aimed to compute the strength of the magnet necessary to exert a gram of force on a one-gram soft iron washer at a distance of 40 meters, expecting the result to be measured in Tesla units.

Key Considerations:
- We acknowledged the complexity of accurately calculating the magnetic field strength due to the detailed magnetic properties of the iron washer and the magnet's geometry.
- The calculation challenges stem from the complexities of magnetic interactions, especially considering the distance and the non-linear responses of ferromagnetic materials to external magnetic fields.

Material Selection for the Washer:
- Soft iron was identified as the ideal material for the washer due to its high magnetic permeability and low coercivity, making it highly susceptible to magnetic forces.
- This material is akin to what is used in keeper plates for magnets, emphasizing its efficiency in magnetic flux conduction and ease of magnetization and demagnetization.

Next Steps:
- With the selection of soft iron as our material of choice, we plan to delve deeper into the calculations, considering the magnetic properties of soft iron to estimate the required magnetic field strength.

This summary reflects our thoughtful and step-by-step approach to tackling a complex problem within the realm of magnet asteroid mining. Our discussion continues as we aim to further understand and quantify the magnetic interactions at play in this innovative mining concept.

(th)

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#345 2024-03-06 09:11:01

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,057

Re: Colonizing / terraforming small asteroids

In our next session, I asked CH4 to concentrate on the washer to be placed at 40 meters.  I learned/re-learned that the orientation and cross section of the washer would influence the force it will experience, and not just the mass.  Here is CH4's report:

Update on Magnet Asteroid Mining Project: Selection of Fender Washer Material

We have made significant progress in our magnet asteroid mining project, specifically in the selection of the material for our fender washer. After thorough discussion and consideration, we have chosen Electrolytic Iron for its outstanding magnetic properties. Here's a summary of our decision process and the material's characteristics:

Choice of Material:
- The material selected for the fender washer is Electrolytic Iron, known for its high purity and exceptional magnetic qualities. This choice is driven by the material's high magnetic permeability and low coercivity, making it highly responsive to magnetic fields.

Specifications for the Fender Washer:
- Mass: 1 gram
- Diameter: 25 mm
- Distance from Magnet: 40 meters
- These specifications were chosen to optimize the washer's performance in magnetic interactions while ensuring practicality and realism.

Key Magnetic Properties of Electrolytic Iron:
- Relative Permeability (μ_r): Electrolytic Iron has a high relative permeability, which greatly enhances its ability to conduct magnetic flux. This property is crucial for our calculations, as it directly influences how the washer will respond to the magnetic field. While the exact value can vary, Electrolytic Iron's relative permeability is significantly higher than non-magnetic materials, making it an ideal choice for our project.
- Saturation Magnetization (M_s): This refers to the maximum magnetization the material can achieve under an external magnetic field. For Electrolytic Iron, M_s is typically around 2.15 × 10^6 A/m, indicating its ability to achieve a high level of magnetization before becoming saturated. This property provides context for the magnetic field's strength requirements to interact with the washer effectively.

Conclusion:
The selection of Electrolytic Iron for the fender washer material marks a pivotal step in our project. Its superior magnetic properties will enable us to more accurately estimate the strength of the magnetic field required to exert the desired force on the washer from a distance of 40 meters. This choice underscores our commitment to optimizing the magnetic interaction in our asteroid mining concept, ensuring we move forward with a solid foundation for our calculations and experiments.

Stay tuned for further updates as we continue to progress in our magnet asteroid mining project and delve into the calculations involving the magnetic field strength necessary for our objectives.

(th)

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#346 2024-03-06 09:43:41

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,057

Re: Colonizing / terraforming small asteroids

An attempt to proceed further ended with network errors spoiling the sessions...

Work had begun on design of an electromagnet to deliver 1 gram of force on the fender washer at 40 meters.

Arbitrary values were chosen:

Diameter of core: one meter
Length of coreP: 20 meters
Winding material: Copper

At one point, CH4 decided to try to achieve a magnetic field strength of 1 Tesla at the pole of the magnet..

The number of windings to achieve that was on the order of 1500 per meter.

Somewhere along the line, CH4 forgot the force we want to exert at 40 meters .... that had been given as 1 gram.

In thinking ahead, I will ask CH4 to focus upon the force that would be exerted on the fender washer at 40 meters, if we have a 1 Tesla field at the pole of the magnet. 

(th)

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#347 2024-03-06 10:32:42

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 17,057

Re: Colonizing / terraforming small asteroids

In the table below, ChatGPT4 shows how a 1 Tesla field falls off with distance ...

Magnetic Field Strength at Distances up to 40 Meters

We've calculated the magnetic field strength at each meter from the magnet, starting with an initial strength of 1 Tesla at the magnet's pole. Here's how the field strength decreases over distance, following the inverse cube law:

  • 1m - 1.000 Tesla

  • 2m - 0.125 Tesla

  • 3m - 0.037 Tesla

  • 4m - 0.0156 Tesla

  • 5m - 0.008 Tesla

  • 6m - 0.00463 Tesla

  • 7m - 0.00292 Tesla

  • 8m - 0.00195 Tesla

  • 9m - 0.00137 Tesla

  • 10m - 0.001 Tesla

  • 11m - 0.000751 Tesla

  • 12m - 0.000579 Tesla

  • 13m - 0.000455 Tesla

  • 14m - 0.000364 Tesla

  • 15m - 0.000296 Tesla

  • 16m - 0.000244 Tesla

  • 17m - 0.000204 Tesla

  • 18m - 0.000171 Tesla

  • 19m - 0.000146 Tesla

  • 20m - 0.000125 Tesla

  • 21m - 0.000108 Tesla

  • 22m - 0.000094 Tesla

  • 23m - 0.000082 Tesla

  • 24m - 0.000072 Tesla

  • 25m - 0.000064 Tesla

  • 26m - 0.000057 Tesla

  • 27m - 0.000051 Tesla

  • 28m - 0.000046 Tesla

  • 29m - 0.000041 Tesla

  • 30m - 0.000037 Tesla

  • 31m - 0.000034 Tesla

  • 32m - 0.000031 Tesla

  • 33m - 0.000028 Tesla

  • 34m - 0.000025 Tesla

  • 35m - 0.000023 Tesla

  • 36m - 0.000021 Tesla

  • 37m - 0.000020 Tesla

  • 38m - 0.000018 Tesla

  • 39m - 0.000017 Tesla

  • 40m - 0.000016 Tesla

Conclusion at 40 Meters:
At a distance of 40 meters, the magnetic field strength diminishes to 1.5625 x 10^-5 Tesla. Given this extremely weak magnetic field, the force exerted on a 1-gram washer made of highly magnetically susceptible material (like Electrolytic Iron) would be too weak to be measured. This illustrates the challenges in utilizing magnetic fields over large distances for practical applications, especially when attempting to exert forces on small objects.

(th)

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#348 2024-03-06 10:33:48

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,078

Re: Colonizing / terraforming small asteroids

Hi (th) and Calliban.

I think it is fine if (th) wants to do this sort of analysis, but I think that the information that provides may not be central to what I was originally getting at.  Here is the post again where I started to work in a direction: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 76#p220076  (Post #336).

Quote:

(th) already covered this in a Fusion topic: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … 3025&ei=18

So, the magnets used would be very powerful superconductor magnets.

There is no question as to if such could attract magnetite, or if two such magnets could attract, or repel each other.
The only question is the magnitude of attraction at certain distances, and how the geometry of the such an assembly may behave.

Last edited by Void (2024-03-06 10:42:30)


Done.

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#349 2024-03-06 10:47:44

Calliban
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From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,411

Re: Colonizing / terraforming small asteroids

As a charged ion radiation shield, I can see an electromagnet being useful.  A coil looped around the equator of an asteroid could generate a field that would shield out solar flares.  The interesting thing is that when such a field fills with plasma, the plasma itself is conductive.  So current running through the plasma would reinforce the magnetic field.  This was the old R2P2 concept.  You set up a small field which fills with ions.  You then induce current within the trapped plasma to inflate the field.  If the plasma is dense enough, it might be measurably beneficial for stopping micrometeorites as well.

I don't think magnetic locking of a spacecraft to the surface of an asteroid would work.  Most asteroids are rubble piles and also have thick regolith layers.  Covering your ship with regolith isn't something you want to do.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-03-06 10:50:58)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#350 2024-03-06 10:52:29

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,078

Re: Colonizing / terraforming small asteroids

Well some asteroids at least include magnetite in their regolith particles.  And the two "Ships" would be attracted to each other also, and may "Pinch" an asteroid.

If liberty is taken, then I say that Deimos and Phobos are "Like" asteroids.  But Ryugu and Bennu of a different sort of object, but a set of methods might work for some of them.

Magnetite has been confirmed on Bennu.
And it is also true of Ryugu it seems: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 3723000674

Magnetic locking to such an object is relative to the amount of magnetically attractive objects, and also the strength of magnetic fields.

The problem with very tiny asteroids/rubble piles, is of course the low gravity.  But using magnetics and perhaps electrostatics, and inertia the situation may be improved.

Quote:

Covering your ship with regolith isn't something you want to do.

Imagine a "Ship" is a pyramid or cone, the base set upon an asteroid.  At the peak radiators or solar panels and other tech objects project out.  But your magnetic field is in the base of the pyramid.  The objective is not to envelope the tech at the peak of the pyramid with regolith, but the base of the pyramid.

Magnetite on these asteroids is not likely to be pure but perhaps particles embedded in some of the regolith particles.

So, you land one or two of these, and turn the magnets up, and you may even stir the surface materials of the asteroid with some method, and then draw magnetic particles to envelope the base of the pyramid.  Now you have embedded the devices base into the asteroid and have also increased the inertia of the device.  But you might do similar with electrostatics, and so then charge the interior of the object with a (+) Charge by drawing electrons from the asteroid materials.  But the magnetic and electrostatic charges might be used to coat portions of the device where it is desired.

So then along with the magnetic field you have also increased the radiation shielding inside of portions of the device.

As material may be drawn to the craft, you may containerize some of it and so then attach those containers to the device to increase its inertia.

Over time you may increase the stability of your "Fulcrum(s)".

Well, I have had second thoughts about this, and then also further thoughts that you may be interested in.

My second thought concern: I am worried that the solar wind might pluck these magnetic field supporting objects off of a tiny asteroid.  This would be less of a concern for Phobos and Deimos because of better gravity conditions.

I think that such a danger is conditional, based on a particular situation.  There are many variables.
But using two such magnetic emitters to "Pinch" an asteroid may be helpful to avoid a "Plucking" event.

Supposing a largely DC magnetic field(s) then two dipole magnets might be engaged.  They may be attracted to each other SN<>SN for polarity but <> is the asteroid between them.  I think that the danger of plucking may be reduced if the magnetic lines of force are bent inside of the asteroid, so as to present less magnetic lines of force to be presented to the solar wind.  So, I think that solar wind plucking may be avoidable.

My further thinking brings me full circle back to your ring, it seems.  Where we could hope to plant a seed, we then want that seed to allow for a metamorphic progression to better states of accomplishment.

So, this is somewhat new but resembles your ring.  A band around the asteroid that connects the two magnetic devices. 
Ubtainium tethers or ribbons, of good strength to band around the asteroid.  And so the mechanically link the two magnetic objects.  So, at that point we may be in an improved condition.  Our band/tether wrap may even allow for a trolly to move across it.  This may provide improved access to materials to manipulate by a trolly connected device.

On Bennu, it seems that the band(s) may sink deep into the regolith, which is very fluffy.  But still al long as you can tighten the bands, at some point they can be pulled firm.

While a trolly may help in moving materials to a process facility, but if you also induce fluidization of the asteroid, you might make regolith flow to the two magnetic devices.  Mechanical vibrations may help.  But also, you might provide a pulsing magnetic field to ride on top of the DC fields.  You might also be able to levitate materials electrostatically.

So, then the idea would be to process the asteroid, making it into a potential cycling spaceship over time, and exporting some of the materials for profits also.  Such exports might be very useful on the Moon for instance or in Earth orbit.

To do this with objects like Phobos and Deimos would be similar but of course we need more information on these objects.  But a magnetic ribbon around these objects might also allow collection of "Ore", and also a pulsing magnetic field and electrostatics could help.  For instance perhaps an electron beam could cause dust to levitate above the surface and collect at the tow magnetic stations.

That is as far as I am with it so far.

Obviously, it is in the process of being developed.

I need to say that a sports team test to invite a binary dismissal would be considered annoying.

smile

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-06 11:44:19)


Done.

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