Planetary Cores and potentials for geothermal power.

Void · 2022-09-15 18:58:55

As you may see, Peter Zeihan claims that the anti-fracking community was boot-strapped by the Russians.

I will agree that where it can induce Earthquakes, it should be used with caution or not at all. However, it may be true that a well fracked for heat, would not have to have water injected into rock layers below.

So here based on your comments Calliban, it appears that a multi-staged serial heat system may have utility.

Geothermal tapped may be less than efficient due to a small thermal gain. The wells dug are expensive for it, apparently.

I suggest that it may be possible that a fracked well can be made with an injection and extraction port.

Intermittent energy sources might be used to heat water to very high temperatures for injection. This could include solar or wind, perhaps others. A fracked well may not need to be as deep as the geothermal wells but could have a lot of heat exchanger surface area.

So, extracting a relatively low-grade heat from geothermal, and then porting that to a frack well that was heated to a higher temperature, then the serial output may be more efficient than geothermal alone.

This might work for the UK, in the notion of using excess peak electricity from wind, to make very hot water, and pumping it down into the frack well. Then you have the water in the frack network and the rock of it for heat storage.

You might even run electricity through the water of the well, but I would be careful and investigate what the consequences of it were. It could be low voltage and high current which is not too dangerous typically.

Done.

And we might consider this for Mars, but not with wind but solar. Australia as well, I presume, and other places of course.

Done.

Fracking has been shown not to contaminate the water table above, if you do not intentionally release polluted fluids.

Earthquakes of Oklahoma are a result of pushing water at a high pressure into rock layers below where it then lubricates faults.

In the case where I suggest drilling a well not for Hydrocarbons, but for a heat exchanger/heat storage device. There is no need to build up higher pressures than exist at the level. A water column of 2 miles down, provides a very high pressure in any case, but not as high as 2 miles of rock. At such a pressure you can have very hot water and it might not flash to steam.

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-09-15 19:12:01)

Calliban · 2022-09-16 04:10:22

Goehring & Rozencwajg present a history of energy. Well worth listening to.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Jz75yScqPpQ

Calliban · 2022-09-16 04:13:34

Void wrote:

In the case where I suggest drilling a well not for Hydrocarbons, but for a heat exchanger/heat storage device. There is no need to build up higher pressures than exist at the level. A water column of 2 miles down, provides a very high pressure in any case, but not as high as 2 miles of rock. At such a pressure you can have very hot water and it might not flash to steam.

Yes, the geothermal fluid will remain saturated liquid with no boiling, at all stages. The boiling would take place within boilers, which would contain a heat exchanger coil through which the pressurised geothermal fluid is pumped. Power generation water must be clean to avoid shot blasting the turbine with salt particles.

The situation is different to oil & gas drilling because of the differences in required flowrate. One litre of crude oil contains about 30MJ of energy. One litre of geothermally heated water, heated say from 100°C to 200°C, will carry about 0.4MJ of thermal energy. So to get the same energy output, the flowrate must be 75x higher. This implies a much larger well for geothermal to get the same energy output. It can also be interpreted as meaning that a geothermal well of the same diameter, will produce 75x less power output than an oil well. Oil and gas drilling infrastructure may not be directly applicable to geothermal. We will need bespoke equipment. Though much of the basic technology is applicable.

Compared to an oil well, the capital cost and embodied energy of a geothermal well will be greater, although the exact cost is very much a function of the geothermal temperature gradient at a particular location. This makes the economic case for geothermal energy in non-optimal locations very dependant upon the efficiency at which heat can be converted to electricity. For a pure geothermal plant, the hard upper limit for efficiency is the Carnot efficiency. This is given as:

E = (TH - TC)/TH

For a hot side temperature of 200°C (473K) and a cold side of 300K, Carnot efficiency is about 37%. A practical steam plant will operate at somehere between one half and three quarters of Carnot efficiency. For a steam tempedature of 200°C, 20% is a realistic generation efficiency. Drilling deeper allows higher hot side temperatures and betrer conversion efficiency. But it also increases capital cost, which is not a linear function of drilling depth, it is more like drilling depth squared. So drilling deeper has practical limits.

The other option is to integrate the heat from the geothermal well into another type of powerplant. If geothermal energy can preheat boiler water to 200°C and a pulverised coal boiler can heat it from 200 to 500°C, then two thing are accomplished. We have double the proportion of geothermal heat converted to electricity. That doubles the return on capital for that expensive geothermal well. We have also reduced the amount of coal needed per unut electricity by something like 20%. The amount of power produced by a boiler of any given size will increase by 20% and the turbomachinery can be scaled up by 20%, producing extra scale economies. The hybrid idea is a way for geothermal energy to contribute in places where it would otherwise not be economically viable due to drilling costs.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-09-16 04:42:46)

tahanson43206 · 2022-09-16 05:35:41

For Calliban re #63

Thank you for helpful numbers and comparisons...

SearchTerm:geothermal efficiency
SearchTerm:Carnot efficiency of geothermal plant estimated
SearchTerm:steam generated by geothermal source

I would like to toss into the ring a reminder of a comment i found in one of the links provided by SpaceNut recently.

The commentator (may have been either author or online contributor) suggested/asserted that thermal energy is NOT renewable in a stone environment, because stone is such a poor conductor of thermal energy. This is something Calliban has noted earlier in forum posts. The consequence appears to be that every 100 years (or so) the pipe will need to be extended further toward the core, to find a fresh supply of thermal energy.

As another note ... while I am impressed by Calliban's mention of coal as a possible source of thermal energy, I would note that this is NOT something to be encouraged, but instead avoided if possible.

The use of coal and hydrocarbons is a drug that has captured the hearts and minds of a vast population, leading to the consequences that will inevitably be borne by future generations.

Calliban has commented upon the idea of using old depleted oil wells in a geothermal energy campaign.

SearchTerm:oil well used for geothermal energy
SearchTerm:well oil

My suggestion for this situation is to see if adjacent depleted oil wells can be harnessed in pairs, with one pipe delivering clean working fluid down to the heat exchanger, and the other delivering heated water back up to the surface where it can be harnessed. This would require some creative excavation at the bottom of the pipes.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-09-16 05:43:59

Call for 1000 year Geothermal Energy Design

Given the prediction that a geothermal well will exhaust it's supply of geothermal energy (about) every 100 years, a system of planned maintenance/extension of the well seems advisable.

This forum can become a reference source for detailed knowledge about how to build a geothermal energy supply that will last for 1000 years, given routine maintenance.

A goal I'd like to offer is to provide power to every person on Earth, using the power supplied by nuclear fission at the center of the Earth.

Some effort will be required, but fortunately humans have shown the ability to achieve major goals by working together, and occasionally (if not frequently) when competing with each other.

(th)

Calliban · 2022-09-16 07:49:39

Drilling technology and costs.

https://www1.eere.energy.gov/geothermal … pter_6.pdf

The cost of a well is given by:

C = a x e^(b x z)

Where a and b are constants and z is depth in feet. I am using the data in this source to try and estimate what the exponents a and b are. This will allow a better understanding of the art of the possible, in terms what is affordable for a geothermal powerplant.

The solution to developing geothermal energy that people can afford, is more complicated than simply drilling deeper and deeper. If one power plant is generating at 20% efficiency from and 200°C heat source, then drilling twice as deep to a heat source of 400°C would almost double the efficiency and increase the power output by the same proportion. But the cost of drilling the bore holes would more than double and could in fact overwhelm any cost benefits from a higher temperature heat source. There will be a sweet spot where we get the best balance of cost factors that minimise the cost of generated power.

The idea of a 1000 year borehole is probably not a good one. Drilling deeper implies progressively greater costs; corrosion of the well lining is a limiting factor on the life of the well and extending life without redrilling means limiting power output, which is really bad from a capital amortisation perspective. Much better to use up the well in 40 years, say, and then move on to another site. After 40 years, the well lining will be suffering corrosion and other parts of the power plant (boilers, pipework, condenser, turbine blades) will be reaching the end of their realistic life. We don't have many machines that last 100 years, let alone 1000.

I still think that integrating the geothermal resource into a hybrid system is the best way to go. If coal is undesirable, then biomass is a potential renewable alternative. In a nuclear PWR hybrid system, which generates steam at just over 300°C, preheating feed water to 200°C, could allow the same reactor to generate much more power. The specific enthalpy of saturated water at 300K, 473K and 580K, are 112, 852 and 1386KJ/kg, respectively. This means that a geothermal heat source, preheating feed water injected into steam generators, could roughly double the power output. At the same time, the efficiency of conversion of the utilised geothermal heat in electricity, would increase from 20%, to something like 33%. A hybrid allows better performance than either nuclear or geothermal can achieve as standalone concepts.

I think there are real opportunities here.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-09-16 08:26:58)

tahanson43206 · 2022-09-16 08:20:59

For Calliban re #56

Thanks for engaging with the topic!

Plasma drilling is reported to be ten times faster than traditional grinding bit technology.

Is it ten times more expensive? I have no idea, but assume (and trust) that since there is real Universe experience with the system, costs should be available.

If the cost is ten times greater and productivity is also ten times greater, then it sounds like a wash to me.

However, we don't actually know what the relative costs are, so finding out would appear to be a reasonable next step.

I'd like to see a design that plans for the long haul, including extension of the drop as needed, at minimal additional expense.

One way to do that might be to design for this process from the beginning.

In other words, whereas a designer might make fixtures permanent, if periodic extension of the shaft is required, then the entire structure might be designed to accommodate that requirement.

I've invited FriendOfQuark1 to engage with you.

For all ... please note that if an organization (such as the Monarchy) has savings, then borrowing money from outside resources is not necessary.

The cost of replacing savings is just the cost imposed by inflation. But if a resource is producing income, then the charge for the product should also increase with inflation, so the replacement of savings ** should ** have NO cost.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-09-26 10:45:44

In another topic (gravity) Calliban commented upon the plasticity of the Earth's crust observed by Soviet researchers in their series of deep well investigations.

Wikipedia has an article on the work.

In the course of investigating the situation, Google came up with this resource:

https://www1.eere.energy.gov/geothermal … ndbook.pdf

Prepared for the International Energy Agency,
Geothermal Implementing Agreement, Annex VII
by
Sandia National Laboratories
P.O. Box 5800
Albuquerque, New Mexico 87185

The report is dated 2010

Snippet:

Depth and temperature of geothermal resources vary considerably. Several power plants, (e.g.,
Steamboat Hills, Nevada and Mammoth Lakes, California) operate on lower-temperature fluid
(below 200°C) produced from depths of approximately 330 m, but wells in The Geysers produce
dry steam (above 240°C) and are typically 2500 to 3000 m deep. In an extreme case, an
exploratory well with a bottomhole temperature of 500°C at approximately 3350 m has been
completed in Japan, (18) and experimental holes into molten rock (above 980°C) have been drilled
both in Hawaii and in Iceland.

The authors report that power production is feasible if temperature of the crust is on the order of 240 degrees Centigrade.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-09-26 10:59:08

There is an opportunity for someone to contribute to this topic by summarizing the technology used to create power successfully in those geothermal wells that are successful.

Live (dry) steam at the bottom of the well is (apparently) a factor.

I'd be interested in details about how the water to create steam is sourced.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-09-26 11:09:51

This post is about the efficiency of Hydroelectric power .... It is included in a topic about geothermal power because I have inquired if it might be more efficient to produce electric power at the bottom of a geothermal shaft, than at the top.

90%
A hydropower plant can provide up to 90% efficiency throughout the year. This is generally applicable to the power plants in association with large dams. This is because, large turbines can be installed in large dams, and these dams have a strong flow of water consistently.
How Efficient is Hydroelectric Power Generation - Science Stories
science.visualstories.com/how-efficient-is-hydroelectric-power-generation
People also ask
What are the advantages and disadvantages of hydroelectric energy?
How efficient is hydroelectric power generation?
What kind of energy does Hoover Dam use?
What are facts about hydroelectric energy?
Hydroelectric Energy | National Geographic Society
https://www.nationalgeographic.org/encyclopedia/...
WebMay 20, 2022 · The Three Gorges Dam in China, which holds back the Yangtze River, is the largest hydroelectric dam in the world, in terms of …
Estimated Reading Time: 4 mins

(th)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-10-04 00:34:16

Finland's third geothermal heating well over 1 000 meters deep completed in Finnoo

https://electricenergyonline.com/articl … innoo.html

"The first heating well of the Finnoo project was drilled to a depth of 1,500 meters during the summer, and the heat transfer piping has also been installed. The heating was moved to Finnoo in July and is now connected to the heating network. Commissioning is scheduled to take place in the coming weeks," reports Simo Laitinen, Project Manager at QHeat.

The Finnoo heat well is the third geothermal heat well of QHeat to be drilled to a depth of more than 1 000 meters. The Finnoo well is the second deepest geothermal well to be commissioned in Finland. In Salo, QHeat has drilled a 1 600-metre deep geothermal well for Lounavoima Oy.

According to Laitinen, each geothermal well is a masterpiece, which has required a great deal of expertise and a keen sense of the well's progress.

"Even at a depth of 500 meters, there is very little accurate information on the progress of the drilling, and the challenge factor increases significantly when going to depths of more than a kilometer. The challenge is to obtain information on deep bedrock sinkhole drilling, but QHeat has developed data collection methods to improve and refine the snapshot," says Laitinen.

In Finnoo and Niittykumpu, QHeat has been working in a densely built, residential environment, which has brought additional challenges to the well drilling sites.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-10-04 00:35:28)

tahanson43206 · 2022-10-04 06:35:37

For Mars_B4_Moon re #61

Thank you for this substantial contribution to the topic!

SearchTerm:geothermal wells Finland
SearchTerm:Finland geothermal wells brought online note difficulty of drilling

(th)

Calliban · 2022-10-07 08:15:11

Heat roadmap Europe plans to gradually expand district heating to meet the majority of Europe's low grade heat requirements.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ww9XOh3Ln1g

The average house in the UK requires about 15MWh of heat per year. About 80% of this is space heating, which is needed for 3-6 months of the year. That implies an average peak heat delivery rate of 6kW.

In many ways, cold district heating is more practical than attempting to deliver hot water. Hot water requires insulated underground pipes. With cold district heating, water would be delivered at temperatures of around 20°C and a heat pump would raise its temperature sufficiently for space and water heating. This allows the water network to use non-insulated, cast concrete pipes for water distribution. The concrete and soil provide the modest insulation needed to minimise thermal losses at temperature differences of 10-20°C.

If water enters a heat pump heat exchanger at 20°C and exits at 10°C, then each litre of water will deliver 42KJ of heat to the heat pump. We would need a flowrate of 0.14 litres per second for each house. A town district of 1000 homes could be heated using a single concrete pipe 1' (30cm) in diameter, assuming flowrate of 2m/s.

The heat pump efficiency is a function of the temperature difference between the heat supply to the pump and ejection temperature. The performance is better if the required temperature rise is small. For space heating, we ideally want a room temperature of 21°C. Radiators, despite their name, transfer most heat by convection. The rate of heat transfer per unit area, is proportional to the temperature difference between the radiator surface and air. In new houses, we could use the walls and floors as radiators and the heat pump might only need an outlet temperature 25°C. But for most existing buildings that will be difficult. We could embed slim heat tubes under the wall rendering or install underfloor heating under carpets. But if we are stuck with wall mounted radiators, it is difficult to achieve sufficient heat transfer with water temperatures much less than 40°C, without radiators dominating entire walls. Things to think about.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-10-07 08:40:40)

SpaceNut · 2022-10-07 15:50:35

As a general rule, the crust temperature rises with depth due to the heat flow from the much hotter mantle; away from tectonic plate boundaries, temperature rises in about 25–30 °C/km (72–87 °F/mi) of depth near the surface in most of the world.
Geothermal gradient - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_gradient

Here is a dyi air heat box

https://youtu.be/WRAxpaYh6DA

Void · 2022-10-08 19:32:06

Well, there is a very nice geothermal notion and also a thermal energy storage notion here:

Eavor Technologies | The First Scalable Form of Clean Baseload Power, "Disruptive Investing"

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=8d … M%3DHDRSC3

As I see, it it may be possible to dump excess heat into the geothermal well with an electric current flow, that would apply to the video above.

The video below does use electricity to heat up bricks, I believe.

How 3000 Degree Bricks will end battery Storage, Ziroth:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ho … ORM=WRVORC

I see that they are likely to do some good deeds.

I am so pleased, the real problem we were facing was that our pseudo-Romans were getting ready to try to remanifest feudalism for the "Lower Ranks". Sort of like Constantine. You know those dirty people who use tools to create wealth.

Looks like the Fascist Greens are not going to get their way. The tool users are as always going to fix the problems, so that then leaves our high masters to find another reason why they need to be in control to a greater level.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-10-08 19:35:15)

Calliban · 2022-10-09 10:51:08

Heat storage in high temperature bricks or any high temperature solid, has energy storage density that rivals the best electrochemical batteries. And inert solids like brick, sand or stone are very cheap and have low embodied energy.

The problem with storing high temperature heat is that fouriers law tell us that heat flux across insulation increases in proportion to temperature difference. Also, thermal conductivity of insulation trends upwards at high temperatures. So it is difficult to store high heat for long periods. Increasing the size of the store helps, as heat losses scale with surface area, but heat capacity scales with volume. Using a low cost bulk insulation material like loose sand helps as well. But the inescapable conclusion is that efficient storage of high heat is only effective if the store is very large. This might work for large industrial heat users. But is less suitable for small off grid applications.

Void · 2022-10-09 12:18:41

I would say that for a bulk economy that can be OK. Industry needs it and humans require the productivity of industry. Poor people or the elderly may wish to live in apartment settings. This could then free up hydrocarbons for more individualistic types perhaps raising children in larger bulk to use. I am not a Zero Hydrocarbon person. I consider that to be a pseudo religious fetish. People who are not mentally balanced will opt for it, in hopes of being in a grouping where they may belong or have a sense of importance, and perhaps even gain money and power.

I would think that the "American type Suburb" thing might better have a grid optional situation. That is you are mostly independent, but can endure relatively small periods of insufficient energy, and may at times export your excess energy to a grid. During the poor energy periods, perhaps a local generator burning stuff could pick up the bad spots for something like a townhouse situation. Just punting on it, I guess.

I was thinking about this brick thing, being in boring company tubes. This again would likely be large installation.
How far down can a Boring Company tube go?

I don't think that their current bricks would work at those heats, but suppose with clay to make those that might, also using much of the spoils.

The notion of placing heat into the bricks, is by electric. To extract is to be the flow of air fluid and then I think that to create steam.

As a boring tube might be as deep as a (Very large unit of measure of your proposal), leaked heat would not so much be lost, as stored in solid rock. And what if you applied a vacuum to the storage tube, at times?

But that takes away the method of extraction. But then either allow air back in when you are ready to extract or use another method of extraction.

Perhaps this boring tube would be a boiler? Just allow a stream of water to run down its bottom to be vaporized.

If the tube were slanted, that might work OK.

Not so sure, perhaps there can be something else.

Perhaps this works with an Air Battery?

I had thought of liquid metals, but that is probably not the best path.

And I have to wonder how this might fit in with wind, solar, tidal, and the very interesting geothermal schemes mentioned in my previous post.

But I see no harm in having large scale installations. It is good for the economy and a vigorous economy will be good for everyone including the disadvantaged.

I am interested in your thinking on this.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-10-09 12:33:10)

Void · 2022-10-09 14:23:49

Here is something timely: "Elon Musk Reveals MAJOR NEW Boring Company Update!, The Tesla Space"
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=El … &FORM=VIRE
Quote:

Elon Musk Reveals MAJOR NEW Boring Company Update!
YouTube · 36 views · 1 hr ago · by The Tesla Space

I have been thinking now about Ice Caves, and the Boring Company.

Last edited by Void (2022-10-09 14:43:00)

SpaceNut · 2022-10-09 14:40:21

It's one of the reasons for a thermos bottle using a vacuum on the outside of the barrier glass and reflective surface for the inside to reflect the heat back on itself.
Heat pumps like the layer of sand below the frost line for that same reason as it's a cheap material to make the thermal energy retention.

Void · 2022-10-09 14:44:54

Hi Spacenut, yes, an option which may have merit at times.

I have also been thinking about "Ice Caves" and then "Super Ice Caves".

I grew up in Northern Minnesota, so I know cold winters, not quite to Robert's level, but yeah it got cold.

So, I think that this could be in part a strange type of geothermal, coupled with energy storage, (In Part), and atmospheric processing to produce useful chemicals.

But first, Ice Caves: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_cave

So, probably a situation where convection moves cold into a cave system in a winter season, but not only.

I really don't care that much about the water ice.

So, if you build a boring tunnel, you might make one. You may also leave most of the tailings in it as bricks with spaces between. This then could be a cold storage system. You might add fans in the winter to promote forced convection. But geothermal heat would be against you, but it might be useful.

But now what if you drop liquid air into it in the winter, if you have surplus energy?

Of course, your geothermal will try to boil it, but that should be limited to the conduction through rock. So, probably a relatively steady but slow boiloff, I might think.

But what if you couple that to producing distillation of air to products such as Nitrogen, Argon, Oxygen Concentrate, Liquid Oxygen, and perhaps others?

An Oxygen Concentrate could be used to burn things, while not including as much Nitrogen in the process.

And if you couple this with a hot boring tunnel with bricks say at as much as thousands of degrees, then possibly seasonal energy storage is a thing to look at.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-10-09 14:56:55)

Void · 2022-10-09 16:39:41

So, now if this is all true, it may be possible to network all of these natural resources.

Hydroelectric
Wind By prediction and at its will.
Solar By prediction and at its will.
Wave By prediction and at its will.
Tidal By clockwork

The geothermal that was recently mentioned can be complementary to these. It is more at the will of the load.
Here that is again: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=8d … M%3DHDRSC3

But now if we could store heat and cold, these may also factor in.

But especially the cold, could work with their geothermal, as they may use something like butane for their working fluid.

So, a blessing for Canada, but also for us all. We Arnt that different in this state as regards environment.

Well, another interesting method to store cold in a boring tunnel, would be to chop ice out of a lake with some kind of a robotic ice muncher, and stuff it into an inclined tunnel. Possible? Maybe for Canada.

I would find it amusing if some young people could design that.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-10-09 16:52:37)

Void · 2022-10-09 17:02:38

So, then that would be 3 sources of cold which might be stored over the warm seasons, by 3 methods.

Cryogenic Air, (Liquid),
Air Cooled, like an artificial ice cave,
Ice filling.

The ice filling might come from a lake, Canada and others have plenty of lakes that get covered by ice.

Something in the lake would need to chop the ice, and something else to convey it into a Boring Tunnel. Perhaps an inclined one?

Then couple those to Geothermal as suggested by: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=8d … M%3DHDRSC3

Are we having fun yet?

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-10-09 17:05:26)

Calliban · 2022-10-09 17:53:09

Liquid air energy storage
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryogen … gy_storage

One thing that the wiki article doesn't mention, is the possibility of seperating liquid air into nitrogen, oxygen and other gases. Noble gases can be sold to industry following fractionation of the liquid air. Pure oxygen can be used in oxyfuel combustion as well. We can build very compact boilers using oxyfuel combustion and CO2 waste products are much easier to capture.

As an energy storage system, liquid air works much better if there is a supplemental source of heat. Geothermal energy could provide this heat. So could solar thermal energy. Or we could use waste heat from powerplants. In a vehicle, liquid nitrogen could use exhaust heat from an ICE to heat and expand the nitrogen. In this way, we effectively double the amount of useful work energy that is obtained from each unit of fuel.

I think there are advantages and disadvantages to this form of energy storage. The advantages are that liquid air is liquid, and can be stored at atmospheric pressure in a tank. Liquid air is a liquid propellant and can be used to raise power in engines. The plant that produces liquid air is entirely thermodynamic and is made from steel. Liquid air could be transfered using hoses, similar to ordinary gas filling stations. The downsides are poor energy density compared to hydrocarbons. A litre of liquid air expanded with 100% efficiency, will contain about 0.7MJ, which is only about 2.5% the energy density of diesel. You are dealing with cryogens, which have hazards. And even a well insulated vehicle tank, will boil off if the vehicle is parked for some days between use.

But as a grid scale energy storage technology, this is probably one of the few contenders that really could scale to store seasonal quantities of power. If we take the UK as an example of mid-sized western economy. It has a baseload power demand of 30GWe. 1 cubic metre of liquid air will store 770MJ, if expanded with perfect efficiency. To store a whole 30 days worth of power, would mean storing 111 million cubic metres of liquid air. That would imply some truly huge tanks. Probably concrete tanks with steel liners and soil insulation. But unlike other energy storage technologies, it appears achievable. And the entirely mechanical nature of the air liquefaction makes it promissing from an economic and sustainability perspective as well. We could quite feasibly build wind turbines that are directly mechanically coupled to piston compressors that produce a stream of liquefied air. There would be no electric generators involved. The liquid would drain through steel pipes into a storage tank. When power is needed, we use a low grade geothermal heat source to evaporate the air and expand it through turbines to recover the energy.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-10-09 18:28:11)

Void · 2022-10-09 18:26:10

Well, I am glad you have added some features.

It has been totally dominant that the sunbelt was for solar, and the high plains wind belt, is also an asset, but both of these in part short on water resources. Geothermal is more spread around by the method that those Canadian suggest. And of course, winter cold is biased towards high latitudes.

Eventually this could change the energy map, and also make energy more distributed.

I also look to the possibility that some variation(s) of some of these might work for other worlds.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-10-09 18:27:26)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-10-11 08:06:37

Geothermal May Beat Batteries for Energy Storage: Enhanced geothermal systems are well suited to store excess renewable power as heat.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/geothermal-energy#toggle-gdpr

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#51 2022-09-15 18:58:55

Re: Planetary Cores and potentials for geothermal power.

#52 2022-09-16 04:10:22

Re: Planetary Cores and potentials for geothermal power.

#53 2022-09-16 04:13:34

Re: Planetary Cores and potentials for geothermal power.

#54 2022-09-16 05:35:41

Re: Planetary Cores and potentials for geothermal power.

#55 2022-09-16 05:43:59

Re: Planetary Cores and potentials for geothermal power.

#56 2022-09-16 07:49:39

Re: Planetary Cores and potentials for geothermal power.

#57 2022-09-16 08:20:59

Re: Planetary Cores and potentials for geothermal power.

#58 2022-09-26 10:45:44

Re: Planetary Cores and potentials for geothermal power.

#59 2022-09-26 10:59:08

Re: Planetary Cores and potentials for geothermal power.

#60 2022-09-26 11:09:51

Re: Planetary Cores and potentials for geothermal power.

#61 2022-10-04 00:34:16

Re: Planetary Cores and potentials for geothermal power.

#62 2022-10-04 06:35:37

Re: Planetary Cores and potentials for geothermal power.

#63 2022-10-07 08:15:11

Re: Planetary Cores and potentials for geothermal power.

#64 2022-10-07 15:50:35

Re: Planetary Cores and potentials for geothermal power.

#65 2022-10-08 19:32:06

Re: Planetary Cores and potentials for geothermal power.

#66 2022-10-09 10:51:08

Re: Planetary Cores and potentials for geothermal power.

#67 2022-10-09 12:18:41

Re: Planetary Cores and potentials for geothermal power.

#68 2022-10-09 14:23:49

Re: Planetary Cores and potentials for geothermal power.

#69 2022-10-09 14:40:21

Re: Planetary Cores and potentials for geothermal power.

#70 2022-10-09 14:44:54

Re: Planetary Cores and potentials for geothermal power.

#71 2022-10-09 16:39:41

Re: Planetary Cores and potentials for geothermal power.

#72 2022-10-09 17:02:38

Re: Planetary Cores and potentials for geothermal power.

#73 2022-10-09 17:53:09

Re: Planetary Cores and potentials for geothermal power.

#74 2022-10-09 18:26:10

Re: Planetary Cores and potentials for geothermal power.

#75 2022-10-11 08:06:37

Re: Planetary Cores and potentials for geothermal power.

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