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#26 2020-09-20 06:59:02

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,305

Re: "Underground vs Above Ground" (Both actually).

Waking up this topic

tahanson43206 wrote:

For SpaceNut .... several years ago (2014) I worked up a 3D Printer design for a house that would be strong enough to withstand a tornado.  The devastating tornadoes in Norman, Oklahoma had just occurred, and I was active with a 3D Printer group at the time.

The design should be able to handle fire storms, as well as hurricanes and floods, in addition to the primary purpose of withstanding tornadoes.

625x465_9895839_2690667_1459336674.jpg

A 3D presentation of the design should be available at the link below:

https://www.shapeways.com/product/SLYXS … 7&li=shops

(th)

The 3D work is quite nice tahanson43206 and serves as a good model to build with insitu materials on Mars.
If just the dome is clear and above the ground line this makes for a doable build that takes care of the underground need from radiation and leaves the natural lighting for a greenhouse above in the domed area.

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#27 2020-09-20 13:16:44

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,284

Re: "Underground vs Above Ground" (Both actually).

For SpaceNut re #26

To the best of my recollection, you are the first person to offer feedback on the design.

Your suggestion of making the panels in the dome transparent is quite interesting (to me for sure!).  The design was intended to withstand tornadoes, so the original dome roof was intended to be an integrated concrete (or similar ie, ceramic) material.

However, the design could work in many locations, and modifications would make sense for the risks at each.

Even for tornado alley, modern glass technology would permit transparency for the dome (or at least part of it).  I'm thinking here of the glass/plastic combinations that are installed in the International Space Station (and probably in the SpaceX capsule). 

To be clear, the design is intended to be flush with the ground at the level just below the bottoms of the doors.  The doors open to a covered area with descent to the basement.

For the fire storm case, the dome/first story could serve as an air barrier, and with proper attention to the support structures and supplies, the basement could serve as the "safe room" for the inhabitants.

For Mars, the dome would (presumably) take on features of radiation absorption, since that would be (by far) the most serious threat.

Also for Mars (come to think of it) the dome would serve as a pressure container to sustain the occupants at the level suggested by RobertDyck.

On Mars, one of the four doorways could be dedicated for intake of wandering persons, so that suit cleaning and other ingress activities could take place without disturbing the occupants or interfering with egress activities. 

(th)

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#28 2020-09-20 15:54:17

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 2,061

Re: "Underground vs Above Ground" (Both actually).

I am finding this topic difficult to follow.  However, I notice that insulation was discussed.  Under Martian atmospheric pressure and composition, surface regolith would have insulation value comparable to rock wool here on Earth.
https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com … 11JE003805

One idea that I have toyed with in the past, is constructing a simple, repeatable steel formwork, rather like gazebos.  These would be stacked side by side in a crater of other depression, such that the legs would be wired and braced together.  We would do this until the crater were filled with gazebos.  Next, some 3-10m of rock and regolith overburden would be pushed on top of the gazebos.  Once complete, the area under the gazebos would be pressurised between 5-15psi.  The internal pressure would balance the weight of the overburden.

One could even incorporate light tunnels into the roof of the gazebos, with convex glass skylights resisting internal pressure and a simple non-pressurised glass dust cover placed over the top of the light tunnel.  The light tunnels could be wide enough such that they cover 50% of the roof area of each gazebo.  The area directly under the light tunnel would be used to grow vegetation.  The area to the sides, around and between the supports of the gazebos would be used for living space and factory space.

Last edited by Calliban (2020-09-20 16:03:16)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#29 2020-09-20 17:33:26

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,284

Re: "Underground vs Above Ground" (Both actually).

For Calliban re #28

Your mention of gazebo as a possible structure under the regolith sent me to the definition, because the word has some flexibility in meaning.

May I inquire if you had considered Buckminster Fuller's invention?

A geodesic dome is a hemispherical thin-shell structure (lattice-shell) based on a geodesic polyhedron. The triangular elements of the dome are structurally rigid and distribute the structural stress throughout the structure, making geodesic domes able to withstand very heavy loads for their size.

It's possible (I'm not sure) that the geodesic dome would give you more strength for your investment in material.

(th)

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#30 2020-09-21 02:19:04

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 2,061

Re: "Underground vs Above Ground" (Both actually).

tahanson43206 wrote:

For Calliban re #28

Your mention of gazebo as a possible structure under the regolith sent me to the definition, because the word has some flexibility in meaning.

May I inquire if you had considered Buckminster Fuller's invention?

A geodesic dome is a hemispherical thin-shell structure (lattice-shell) based on a geodesic polyhedron. The triangular elements of the dome are structurally rigid and distribute the structural stress throughout the structure, making geodesic domes able to withstand very heavy loads for their size.

It's possible (I'm not sure) that the geodesic dome would give you more strength for your investment in material.

(th)

That may be the most efficient shape.  Whatever it turns out to be, the goal is to be able to mass produce the gazebo / quonset huts very cheaply, I.e by the million.  They need to be easily transportable to a site, either whole or in modular sections.  They are then quickly assembled in place and overburden is literally pushed over the top of them.  Using this method, it should be possible to create pressurised, habitable space very quickly and cheaply.  So far as I can tell, all forces acting on them should be compressive.  So concrete or cast basalt would work as well as steel.  Essentialy, there are only two repeatable components: the dome shaped lid and the supporting legs.  Rather than dig foundations for the support legs, it may be quicker and cheaper to mount them on plinths that spread the load.  So that is a third component.

The idea works best if we can find a natural depression to build the gazebo structures into.  If we were building this on flat ground, we would need to bulldoze thick berms of regolith around the edges.  These would act rather like gravity dams, with the weight of the berms and soil friction resisting the lateral air pressure.

I am not sure I understand what Void's original topic suggestion was about, but it seems to be something similar.  Hopefully, this is not too much of a divergence.

Last edited by Calliban (2020-09-21 02:23:42)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#31 2020-09-21 06:58:48

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,284

Re: "Underground vs Above Ground" (Both actually).

For Calliban re support structures for constructed living space ...

Medieval cathedrals came to mind as I thought about your word picture(s) of the construction method.

The designers of those cathedrals would have been amazed at the thought of the air providing a lifting force to counter the force of gravity.

Great beauty of form is available to the designer in the structures you are contemplating.

(th)

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#32 2020-09-21 16:06:04

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,305

Re: "Underground vs Above Ground" (Both actually).

The cathedral or roman archways have been talked of for the use of brick and stone laying to form a strong structure as a means to leverage the insitu material with minimal processing of them to make use of them.

In this case cutting stone and or making brick requires quite a bit of power even with the correct tools to shape and make them useable for the arch building construction.

Most cutting tools require a source of water to make the fine dust and sparks less prevalent in occurring as the rock is cut to size and shape.

Brick making the dust comes from refining the particular materials to be combined with other materials to make a wet mixture that is pressed into a mold and heated until cured and then they can be made use of. There is quite detailed discussions for the process in another topic.

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#33 2020-09-21 17:36:49

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 2,061

Re: "Underground vs Above Ground" (Both actually).

I was thinking more a sort of mass produced formwork, that could be stamped out by the million in a factory to identical specifications.  These units would be transported to a crater and would be set up so that they line the entire bottom of the crater and are braced together.  We then cover them with overburden and pressurise.  A way of building habitable space very cheaply.


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#34 2022-08-14 05:44:45

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 4,289

Re: "Underground vs Above Ground" (Both actually).

some other discussion

Lava Tubes and Ice Tubes
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=9617
Animals,
Troglobite & Troglophiles
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10307
Trains on Mars - Could a rail system provide martian need
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=3501


The Five Tools of Hedonic Design
https://experimentalhistory.substack.co … nic-design
Hacking the happiness treadmill

We know the hedonic treadmill is powered by adaptation: good things feel good at first, then they feel less and less good until they just feel neutral. To beat the treadmill, then, we have to figure out clever ways of resisting adaptation and keeping good feelings fresh.

Lunar and Martian Lava Tube Exploration as Part of an Overall Scientific Survey
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/studies/4/ … ic-survey/

Learning from past mistakes?

old article with some interesting points

Beyond the Biodome
https://thespacereview.com/article/305/1

Eventually excessive carbon dioxide in the air was traced to the concrete used to construct the facility. It was undergoing a chemical reaction and increasing the carbon dioxide. The lack of oxygen was traced to excessive organic material in the soil used in the greenhouses. But in the meantime, massive amounts of fresh air had been pumped into the Biosphere to prevent the eight jumpsuited crewpersons from dying. The crew made it to their two-year mark and emerged into Biosphere 1 looking a lot thinner, and happy to be on the outside again.

The massive hole in the project’s credibility did not deter those committed to the cause, however, and soon a second group of biospherians locked themselves inside for another two-year journey. However, by this time Bass, the project’s benefactor, had reached his tolerance level with the group managing the project and decided to evict them and take over the facility. Two members of the first biosphere team then showed up on the property, allegedly to warn the members of the second team, and according to Bass’ account, tried to sabotage the facility. US Marshals were called and soon a gaggle of lawyers succeeded where bad air had failed before and the second biosphere crew was evicted, like so much biomass.

Billionaire Bass eventually contracted with Columbia University to run Biosphere 2 as a research and tourist facility, which they did until September 2003. Nobody was locked inside for long periods anymore. The space activist community quickly forgot about Biosphere 2, and many activists undoubtedly hoped that many other people would also forget about their association with the whole embarrassing project as well.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-08-14 05:47:59)

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