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#26 2019-01-08 19:15:07

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: When Mars is better than Earth.

Yes, Louis that is good for the imagination and for imaging thoughts closer to reality.

Chryse Gulf does look interesting.  The tiny bays.... and those elsewhere.  In my version of terraforming I would allow for dikes to be put across their mouths, and for them perhaps to be open water, also further warmed with orbital mirrors.  Just for the joy of it.

Unlike Earth Oceans, for the most part Martian seas, especially the northern see should be rather shallow.  ~100 feet?  ~30.48 Meters.

So there may be situations where polders can be diked off in the northern sea and be open water by way of mirrors, or even dry land as in the Netherlands polders.

It seems to me that for Isidis Bay, Hellas Sea, Argyre Sea, and Mariner Canyon Lakes we might prefer open water, and orbital mirrors to make them more productive.  Should Argyre Sea and Hellas Sea, be fed from the Southern ice covered pools, then one way of regulating humidity and precipitation on Mars would be to control the amount of water entering those basins and controlling the amount of sunlight shined on them from orbital mirrors.  This could allow for fine tuning.  This might also make available the snow packs that we may want in order to fill Isidis Bay and the Mariner Canyons Lakes.

But again other people are allowed their own version of course.

……

Oh, I see that there is discussion of outgassing in other topics.  I suppose it is obvious that even if water above a section of land is ice water that is much warmer than the current underground ambient.  Therefor, I will repeat things I have said elsewhere.  Particularly for the Northern Sea, if there are materials to outgas and the bottom of that sea is at say ~23 degC, I would expect sustained outgassing as the heat penetrates into the ground.  This could be from clathrates of Methane or Nitrogen I should suppose.  Maybe clathrates of CO2?  Maybe some other things?
Not a bad deal since the seas are going to probably give so much wealth in other ways as well.

In this plan, a fair section of the land will be warm water covered.  And those will tend to be the low lands where sedimentation is probably most present from history.  Porous rocks perhaps, porous regolith.  Maybe the pore spaces filled with potential atmospheric gasses. Or at least maybe greenhouse gasses.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-01-08 19:31:40)


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#27 2019-01-09 18:46:16

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,367

Re: When Mars is better than Earth.

One interesting thing  about bodies of water on Mars - they could potentially give people living on Mars a real sense of freedom before we are able to breathe an atmosphere. You could at least touch objects underwater with your bare hands and if artificial gills are ever developed (a real challenge!) then that would make us very at home in an aquatic world.

Void wrote:

Yes, Louis that is good for the imagination and for imaging thoughts closer to reality.

Chryse Gulf does look interesting.  The tiny bays.... and those elsewhere.  In my version of terraforming I would allow for dikes to be put across their mouths, and for them perhaps to be open water, also further warmed with orbital mirrors.  Just for the joy of it.

Unlike Earth Oceans, for the most part Martian seas, especially the northern see should be rather shallow.  ~100 feet?  ~30.48 Meters.

So there may be situations where polders can be diked off in the northern sea and be open water by way of mirrors, or even dry land as in the Netherlands polders.

It seems to me that for Isidis Bay, Hellas Sea, Argyre Sea, and Mariner Canyon Lakes we might prefer open water, and orbital mirrors to make them more productive.  Should Argyre Sea and Hellas Sea, be fed from the Southern ice covered pools, then one way of regulating humidity and precipitation on Mars would be to control the amount of water entering those basins and controlling the amount of sunlight shined on them from orbital mirrors.  This could allow for fine tuning.  This might also make available the snow packs that we may want in order to fill Isidis Bay and the Mariner Canyons Lakes.

But again other people are allowed their own version of course.

……

Oh, I see that there is discussion of outgassing in other topics.  I suppose it is obvious that even if water above a section of land is ice water that is much warmer than the current underground ambient.  Therefor, I will repeat things I have said elsewhere.  Particularly for the Northern Sea, if there are materials to outgas and the bottom of that sea is at say ~23 degC, I would expect sustained outgassing as the heat penetrates into the ground.  This could be from clathrates of Methane or Nitrogen I should suppose.  Maybe clathrates of CO2?  Maybe some other things?
Not a bad deal since the seas are going to probably give so much wealth in other ways as well.

In this plan, a fair section of the land will be warm water covered.  And those will tend to be the low lands where sedimentation is probably most present from history.  Porous rocks perhaps, porous regolith.  Maybe the pore spaces filled with potential atmospheric gasses. Or at least maybe greenhouse gasses.

Done.


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#28 2019-01-09 20:29:10

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: When Mars is better than Earth.

If the warm water at the bottom were 10 times as salty as the sea, you also need weights to keep you from floating up to where the water is colder, and lower pressure.

100 feet or 30 meters, I believe is ~1 bar of pressure.

As for gills, yes, that could be nice.  In the case of the Northern Sea, how much Oxygen would be in the water would be determined by several factors.  First, something has to put it there.  Second, the thickness of the ice will influence how much Oxygen the water can hold in the water just under the ice.  Thicker = More.

But it is possible that if the layers are stratified by salinity, as in a solar salt pond, the lower layers can have much more Oxygen.  Just as long as that water does not depressurize.  But that is a bit of an uncertainty to me.

Another factor is how much of other gasses are dissolved in the water.  Nitrogen for instance.  Nitrogen will displace Oxygen to a degree I believe.  So, on Mars, perhaps just a pinch of Nitrogen, and more dominance by Oxygen.

The whole sea could function like an Oxygen tank.  However, I am not sure how gills will work.  And they are battery powered.

For now I would go with a floating consumables device with a long umbilical.  Maybe a head sized diving bell as well.  Sort of a mini-sub.

……

One positive thing about this proposal, is that the ice is technically "Fossil Cold", and represents one side of a potential energy loop.  Sunlight represents the other.  So, if it can be made to work, and generates electricity and a sea of growing size and the potentials of that sea.  I anticipate that the number of people involved, and the number of solar power towers would grow exponentially.

……

A potential down side is "How you melt the elevated polar ice cap".  If you melt it from below you risk calving icebergs.  This could make small waver disruptions, if they are small, but if they are big, maybe something like a tsunami.  So that would have to be mastered so that you don't create such a catastrophe.

……

Anyway I think it will be very important to control all the condensation points on Mars.  At first just the north and then perhaps the south pole.  But if conditions improve where real snows can happen all over the planet, then there will be alpine snow packs at lower latitudes, and the inhabitants will need to master those as well.

Water if a very big factor for any civilization.  I believe it will be for Mars as well.

I think Mars could really become something.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-01-09 20:47:49)


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#29 2019-01-10 10:30:36

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,367

Re: When Mars is better than Earth.

We could presumably create recreational lakes.

The concept might involve a pressurised area above water level with enhanced light levels (light pipes or artificial lighting). Then you could either play, swim  in the shallows, or surf on the waves provided by a wave machine in the air-pressurised area or you go diving into what would be a managed underwater "park" with lots of interesting plants and tropical fish - maybe a coral bank.

Question: does anyone know if light pipes would also reflect harmful radiation as well as light?  Or perhaps you can filter through translucent plastic...

Yes, I quite like the umbilicals idea. Maybe you could have lots of umbilicals around where you could refresh the small tanks on your back.

Not thinking of anything too deep - maybe a max of 10 metres. There would have to be a safety net to prevent you emerging above the water level and depressurising  or entering depths where the radiation level are dangerous - so maybe the safety net would be at 2 metres below the water surface. I'm thinking a lake about 100 metres wide and 500 long would provide a nice underwater playground for Mars settlers.




Void wrote:

If the warm water at the bottom were 10 times as salty as the sea, you also need weights to keep you from floating up to where the water is colder, and lower pressure.

100 feet or 30 meters, I believe is ~1 bar of pressure.

As for gills, yes, that could be nice.  In the case of the Northern Sea, how much Oxygen would be in the water would be determined by several factors.  First, something has to put it there.  Second, the thickness of the ice will influence how much Oxygen the water can hold in the water just under the ice.  Thicker = More.

But it is possible that if the layers are stratified by salinity, as in a solar salt pond, the lower layers can have much more Oxygen.  Just as long as that water does not depressurize.  But that is a bit of an uncertainty to me.

Another factor is how much of other gasses are dissolved in the water.  Nitrogen for instance.  Nitrogen will displace Oxygen to a degree I believe.  So, on Mars, perhaps just a pinch of Nitrogen, and more dominance by Oxygen.

The whole sea could function like an Oxygen tank.  However, I am not sure how gills will work.  And they are battery powered.

For now I would go with a floating consumables device with a long umbilical.  Maybe a head sized diving bell as well.  Sort of a mini-sub.

……

One positive thing about this proposal, is that the ice is technically "Fossil Cold", and represents one side of a potential energy loop.  Sunlight represents the other.  So, if it can be made to work, and generates electricity and a sea of growing size and the potentials of that sea.  I anticipate that the number of people involved, and the number of solar power towers would grow exponentially.

……

A potential down side is "How you melt the elevated polar ice cap".  If you melt it from below you risk calving icebergs.  This could make small waver disruptions, if they are small, but if they are big, maybe something like a tsunami.  So that would have to be mastered so that you don't create such a catastrophe.

……

Anyway I think it will be very important to control all the condensation points on Mars.  At first just the north and then perhaps the south pole.  But if conditions improve where real snows can happen all over the planet, then there will be alpine snow packs at lower latitudes, and the inhabitants will need to master those as well.

Water if a very big factor for any civilization.  I believe it will be for Mars as well.

I think Mars could really become something.

Done.


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#30 2019-01-10 11:05:58

Terraformer
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From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,172
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Re: When Mars is better than Earth.

Not thinking of anything too deep - maybe a max of 10 metres. There would have to be a safety net to prevent you emerging above the water level and depressurising  or entering depths where the radiation level are dangerous - so maybe the safety net would be at 2 metres below the water surface. I'm thinking a lake about 100 metres wide and 500 long would provide a nice underwater playground for Mars settlers.

Unless the lake is covered by a suitably pressurised (500mb+) bubble, 2m would be a dangerously shallow depth to enter - the water would only add ~75mb of pressure at that point. 10 metres is the *minimum* depth you'd want. The water would have to be very clear, or the light pipes run underwater.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#31 2019-01-10 13:04:14

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,367

Re: When Mars is better than Earth.

Thanks for that.

So a deeper lake would be required...

I'm thinking that you'd carry your own illumination. There would be marker lights for "paths" around the underwater park.

You'd probably have to carry an emergency wrist tracker so you can send a "help" signal should the need arise. Lifeguards centrally positioned in their own air lock chamber on the lakeside about 250 metres distant from the "beach" would use underwater power units to reach you within 2 minutes max.

Terraformer wrote:

Not thinking of anything too deep - maybe a max of 10 metres. There would have to be a safety net to prevent you emerging above the water level and depressurising  or entering depths where the radiation level are dangerous - so maybe the safety net would be at 2 metres below the water surface. I'm thinking a lake about 100 metres wide and 500 long would provide a nice underwater playground for Mars settlers.

Unless the lake is covered by a suitably pressurised (500mb+) bubble, 2m would be a dangerously shallow depth to enter - the water would only add ~75mb of pressure at that point. 10 metres is the *minimum* depth you'd want. The water would have to be very clear, or the light pipes run underwater.


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#32 2019-01-10 13:46:11

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: When Mars is better than Earth.

There will be an incredible number of variables, which we don't have proper definition for yet.

For instance the salts.  We think that there was a sea in the northern basin at least twice.  That suggests that there should be salts included in the sediments/regolith of the northern basin.  Will they emerge, or are they contained in rock formations?  The rest of Mars has lots of salts in the soil (Perchlorates as well).  But I think it is a massive task to mine them.

So, hoping for easy salt in the northern basin.

Per your concern about depressurization by swimming up.  You could have a ice layer giving pressurization of 333 mb.  That would be a very thick thermally insulating layer of ice.  ~37 feet thick.  ~11.2776 meters.

Then you would not risk depressurizing.  But still depending on what gas mixture you were breathing you might be concerned about altitude sickness, or the bends.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altitude_sickness

If you are breathing pure Oxygen, then that would be suitable for just under the ice layer (Where it would be cold water).
If you are breathing a Nitrogen/Argon/Oxygen mix that would be suitable for the bottom at ~100 feet or ~30+ Meters, but then if you swam up to just under the ice yes if not careful, maybe the bends, and maybe Altitude Sickness.

…..

To be honest, as I see it you would have parallel systems connected together.

On the ice surface, equipment.  Heliostats/Solar Power Towers, Greenhouses, possibly radiators, roads, power transfer lines/pipes.

Below the ice some kind of a body of water.

Below the water a system of artificial tunnels/Caverns.


When I say greenhouses, I do mean cupala type structures where humans can sit about and look at the sky.  Maybe lower pressure greenhouses where you could grow crops under the midnight sun in the summer.  Even if the summer sun is not enough to warm the greenhouse/cupala sufficiently the warm bottom waters of the reservoir could donate heat to them, presuming we have the salt to make a thermal inversion in the water.

And then we have this:
https://phys.org/news/2019-01-health-food.html
Quote:

People who believe light-emitting diodes, or LEDS, are just an efficient upgrade to the ordinary electric light bulb are stuck in their thinking, suggest Sandia National Laboratories researcher Jeff Tsao and colleagues from other institutions in a Nature "Perspectives" article published in late November.

"LED lighting is only in its infancy," the authors write. "We now stand at the threshold of what might be called engineered light."
Light intentionally controlled in time, space and spectral content can reward not just human optics with better lighting but also can help regulate human health and productivity by eliciting various hormonal responses.
Moreover, with plants, the authors write, tailored LED wavelengths and intensities can efficiently stimulate their growth, alter their shapes and increase their nutritional value, opening a new world of scientific and technological possibilities for indoor farming.
"That's not to ignore the integration of LEDs with the internet of things," Tsao said, "which is already happening with LED integration with electronics, sensors and communications." The so-called internet of things refers to electronic circuits that can communicate with each other while embedded in a variety of everyday devices.
In short, the inevitable broadening of LED usage could add value to society far greater than the energy saved in lighting homes and buildings, the authors write.


Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2019-01-health-food.html#jCp

My hope is that electric power will be available 24/7 year around by using salinity differences, and/or thermal methods.

So, I spoke of tunnels and caverns below the sea bottom.  Those could be lit by LED's.  And if constructed correctly they might be satisfactory for long term human mental health and physical health.

For instance the "Boring Company" of Elon Musk is working on improving the digging capabilities of such digging machinery.  So then tunnels.

However I also see that deep caverns could be dug, especially perhaps in sandstone.  But what about one 1 mile or 1 km deep?  Perhaps in the shape of a cone.  Really I don't think I would hang lights from above, rather say on frames somewhat above head height, but some of that light would reflect off of the ceiling.  If you really were rich, perhaps you could project images of the Earth or Mars sky upon the ceiling.  Quite an expense and indulgence I would think.

But I suspect that Martians would adapt to it in any case, as a suitable way to live.

And if the salts I desire are not going to emerge into the waters automatically, perhaps they might be found in salt domes.  Then you would simply dissolve out the salts, expel them into the sea, and perhaps be left with a very large void to adapt into human living.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_dome#Structure
Salt mines:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wieliczka_Salt_Mine

So, if you wanted a water park to play in, then perhaps inside a artificial cavern.

Or back to the sea itself, then construct an enclosure.  However the salt water will be corrosive, so materials are an issue.

You can have an open bottom diving bell, or a completely closed structure.  Of course you have to make sure it won't float too much or it would punch though the ice.

One interesting possibility is to have something like Styrofoam.  Very thick.  With Dimples, or ruffles.  Put air in the dimples or the troughs of the ruffles.  But you have to make sure it does not get waterlogged too much.  That is something to solve.  And probably you have to put some stone weights on top of the ice to neutralize the buoyancy of the Styrofoam.

Other ideas and comments very welcome.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-01-10 14:20:22)


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#33 2019-01-10 19:56:50

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,455

Re: When Mars is better than Earth.

We can use a variety of metalized glass to filter and reduce radiation as we do here on earth. X-ray glass, also referred to as radiation shielding glass or lead glass, is leaded glass that provides shielding protection by absorbing the energy of radiation. The shielding effect is created by a high concentration of lead and barium and the glass can be optically clear or have a slight yellow tint.

Here is one of the glass topics

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6933

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#34 2019-01-14 12:44:43

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: When Mars is better than Earth.

Yes, I think we will want to practice all the possible tricks SpaceNut.

……

Salt, elsewhere I have looked into that.  I have since found new information possibly pertaining to Mars.
The following is a Salt Dome system which apparently results from an Ocean drying up and sediments over the salt, and lots of time.
https://geology.com/stories/13/salt-domes/

There are opinions on the existence of Oceans and Seas on Mars. Some say yes, some say no.  Some say yes an ocean, but not existing long enough for salts to accumulate.  But now, there is suspicion that there could be a brine water table.

So I stumbled on another way that Salt Domes could have come into existence on Mars.  Superheated saltwater/brine.  Should have been possible in the early life of Mars, probably very much less possible now.  Super heated water apparently drops it's salt.  It has to be at a high temperature and high pressure to be so "Superheated".

Perhaps that is how this salt dome came into being.
http://oilonmars.blogspot.com/
And I know that it is heresy to say that there could be oil on Mars as that guys does.  The oil potential I do not care to argue.  However there could have been abiotic Natural Gas I believe, and that would be very important for terraforming Mars.  The point is there is apparently at least one Salt Dome on Mars.

But of course what I want most is a salt dome system resulting from drying up seas, where sediments covered the salt, and salt domes eventually resulted.  That may or may not exist on Mars, but then it is something to look for.  This again:

https://geology.com/stories/13/salt-domes/ 
You might then do things like this:
https://www.wieliczka-saltmine.com/
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Pi … ORM=IQFRBA

So, if salt domes rise close to the surface then build underground stuff there.  Also, in the layers of sediments, there may be one which is favorable for tunneling with a boring company technology, from salt dome to salt dome.

And of course I intend to have a body of salt water covered by ice above this where possible, but not always.

But we will have to see if Mars has such a salt dome system.  Most likely the established powers that don't want humans to leave the Earth will presently present evidence that they don't exist.  (True or not).

Done.

Last edited by Void (2019-01-14 13:10:41)


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