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#76 2019-01-04 22:37:53

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,546

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

Louis,

You may enjoy this bit of satire by Tom Jolly:

http://www.silcom.com/~tomjolly/MarsMis … lished.pdf

Mr. Jolly is (among other things) a science fiction writer.  His most recent work appeared as the cover story in Analog for January/February 2019.

(th)

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#77 2019-01-14 11:49:41

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,546

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

Louis,

Here is an interesting perspective on the future, by one of your countrymen:

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2019010 … est-threat

While the author is focused strictly on Earth, it seems to me his ruminations are worth folding into the larger set of futures, of which Mars is a part.

(th)

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#78 2019-01-15 19:51:02

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,870

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

Thanks, TH, I'll take a look. smile

tahanson43206 wrote:

Louis,

Here is an interesting perspective on the future, by one of your countrymen:

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2019010 … est-threat

While the author is focused strictly on Earth, it seems to me his ruminations are worth folding into the larger set of futures, of which Mars is a part.

(th)


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#79 2019-01-15 20:01:09

louis
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From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,870

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

Mars 2040             

The combined population of residents, company personnel , researchers and tourists is now  2130.  Whilst most launches still take place during the oppositions when Mars and Earth are closest,   Advanced Series Starships   arrive at the Spaceport  every tensol of the Mars year.

Of course, hopper flights around the planet are rapidly rising in number as tourism takes off as well.  It is the hopper flights which really keep the Aldrin Spaceport busy.

The domicile maximum has been raised to 12 years.   Increasingly the evidence is that humans can live healthily on Mars  with the appropriate medication and exericise.  Returning to Earth does take adjustment though. A 4 year stay on Mars or in transit equates to a period of 3 months "Readjustment Programme" (RP)  back on Earth when you return. A 2 year stay equates to a one month RP.

Working on Mars is a very attractive proposition.  The average stay on Mars for an MDC (Mars Development Corporation) worker is 4 years.  The median pay is about $240,000 pa (2019 prices).  The MDC operative on Mars has few expenses. They pay no rent or taxes and all their food and clothing is provided for.  They might choose to purchase some luxuries while on Mars but generally speaking their cost of living is v. low.  If they own a house or apartment back on Earth they can rent it out while they are on Mars and most of their salary is earning interest while they are away.  The MDC want the best staff and labour costs are a small part of the overall cost structure of Mars operations, so the tendency is to pay very well by Earth standards. 

The financial rewards coupled with what is seen as a very stimulating lifestyle are proving exceptionally attractive to highly qualified and energetic young people.  Young people love the experience of playing sports in 0.38 G.  Many people find they can beat the Earth's World Record for 100 metres while on Mars (the Mars record now stands at 6.02 seconds). There are now 5 separate sports and gym centres. 

There is also a ski centre and cave exploration complex, a velodrome and a pressurised climbing experience up a very steep crater wall.

There are plans for a Mars bungee jump.

The key tourist itinerary is Olympus Mons, Valles Marineris, the original landing site of the first Starships, the Old City, the glacier mining operation, the Xerxes caves, Earth Valley (the development announced in 2032 at Wabash Crater , using a natural gorge, it was designed to replicate a natural environment on Earth -  you can cycle or run for 50 kms without ever retracing your steps) and the Mars Resort (a beach and underwater park experience in a 500 metre by 100 metre lake with heated water, sandy beach, tropical fish, a coral reef, and enhanced natural light to replicate the Med in high summer). 

The Old City is being developed as a restaurant/night economy centre where people can gaze on the old Starships, illuminated at night in coloured lights.

The Mars Council approves a $500 million Fertility and Procreation Programme (FPP) with a view to a safe pregnancy and birth taking place on Mars in 2045.

The Primary Terraformation Project (Stage One) begins in in 2040.  This involves Rocket Hoppers seeding the Northern polar region with dark dust to decrease the albedo effect and  increase the amount of heat absorbed by the planet.  The Northern Polar Programme is designed to be spread over the next 40 years. By the end of the programme there will be 100,000 flights per annum depositing dark material over the northern latititudes..

Some other recent Mars Council decisions:

1.     There is no requirement for metalled roads on Mars.

2.    A new settlement to be called Ares City is to be built in the Southern Hemisphere.

3.    If any unauthorised settlement attempt is made on Mars then authorisation is given to disrupt that settlement by all means necessary including disruption of energy supplies.   

4.    Elon Musk is elected first President of Mars at the age of 69.  The electorate (composed of persons who have lived on Mars for more than one year) numbers 1238.  The turnout for the election (conducted by mobile phone with pin number verification) is 82%.  The opposing candidate ran as the UN Candidate and received only 1.4%  of the vote.

5.    The Council resolves to adopt an All Mars Constitution by 2050. Until then the Council’s resolutions shall have “constitutional validity”.

6.    Mars Homestead “packages” are to be subsidised.  The packages will allow people to live independently with their own habs, energy supply, agricultural production habs including not just food crops but also crops for clothing, 3D printing to produce goods and spare parts and of course life support.  The Homesteader scheme requires participants to supply the Mars Council Food Department with a proportionate amount of food.

Exohab , an Earth-based start up has produced a simple and cheap “multiplex living space”.  Essentially these are pop up habs, connected by polymer tunnels that can be expanded indefinitely.

Back on Earth Mars TV has some 45 million subscribers across the world watching a mix of programming from reality TV, through exploration missions, science, classic Mars films and other formats.   

The ESA announces its intention to co-operate with the MDC and Mars Council on future operations on Mars as part of a $7.5 billion deal over ten years (MDC providing 50% of the funding).

Space X’s revenues from Mars-related activities are now $4.6 billion pa. MDC’s revenues are over $11 billiion pa. The profit margin is 16%.  The Mars Council has revenue of $1.1 billion through its agreements with Space X and MDC.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#80 2019-09-02 14:31:34

SpaceNut
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Posts: 19,711

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

Bumping topic:

Time lines are contained in this topic with general features to what makes a settlement for the My Hacienda On Mars topic which is recording the activity owners for the cities growth for settled plots and business opportunities.

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#81 2020-01-11 19:35:04

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Posts: 19,711

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

louis wrote:

I think on Mars we have a real chance of abolishing poverty.

Poverty's causes are basically: (a) physical or mental illness, compromising people's ability to earn a living (b) social deviancy (e.g. criminal behaviour) (c) economic unemployment (d) single parent status (e) lack of welfare support from the community either charitable or governmental (f) lack of education (g) malnutrition (h) poor housing (i) drug abuse/addiction and (j) social or racial discrimination.

(a) Most people going to Mars are going to be physically fit and psychologically resilient.

(b) Owing to the selection process social deviancy will be very rare. People who engage in social deviancy will likely return or be returned to Earth.

(c) There will be no unemployment on Mars. There will be a chronic labour shortage.

(d) This will be irrelevant as there will be full child care available through the community. It will be more like an Israeli Kibbutz in that sense. No one will ever be involuntarily unemployed.

(e) I think there will be wide ranging welfare support, which on Mars will principally mean health care and care in old age.

(f) Mars settlers will have a high level of educational attainment and will value education.

(g) There will be an abundance of good quality food available on Mars.

(h) No one will live in sub-standard accommodation on Mars. For one thing, damp or poor heating will be a safety issue that can impact on everyone.

(i) One cannot rule out the possibility of drug/substance abuse. No doubt it will occur but I don't think it will be on an epidemic level.

(j) There will be no discrimination on the basis of ethnicity or race on Mars, I believe. It will be way too important to find the right people to carry out settlement work - that is all that will count.

Of course, one might say: "You are cheating on Mars - you are selecting people who are unlikely to become poor. Moreover you are sending back to Earth anyone who doesn't meet your required standards.  And you are in any case providing them with huge resources on a per capita basis."  To which I would say: yes, all that is true but it doesn't cancel out the fact that we are building a society on Mars with no poverty.

Poverty on Earth is a kind of deposit left by past miseries: slavery, violence, oppression, racism, illness, war, unemployment, involuntary or voluntary lack of education...

Those deposits won't be there on Mars. It is a fresh start.

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#82 2020-01-11 19:43:41

SpaceNut
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Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

Some nice thoughts contained and for mars some of it may work as described but greed is one of the reasons we have the poor.
Ethical behavior towards each other in that one may think that they are superior to the other.

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#83 2020-01-11 19:56:44

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,870

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

All social mammals are status animals. It's just who we are and what we do. We are social mammals. You can't wish away our status obsession. You can personally walk away from it but you can't legislate for everyone and most people will "follow their genes" and seek status within families, schools, friendship groups, wider social groups, workplaces and so on.

A lot of what people call "greed" is really just competitive status-seeking. It's the desperate acts of an animal that needs status as much as it needs water. Lack of status is in reality as much a death sentence as lack of water. There are serious health costs to long term unemployment, being bullied, being victimised, poverty and so on.

I think on Mars we have a chance to flatten the status profile a lot more and think seriously about how we channel "status thirst"  positively but you can't eliminate it.

SpaceNut wrote:

Some nice thoughts contained and for mars some of it may work as described but greed is one of the reasons we have the poor.
Ethical behavior towards each other in that one may think that they are superior to the other.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#84 2020-01-11 20:49:03

tahanson43206
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Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

For Louis re #83 and SpaceNut for #82

It is good to see your combined gentle dive into human psychology.  kbd512 and GW Johnson have both weighed in with observations in earlier times.

By purest coincidence I caught a brief interview with the Dalai Lama recently.  The subject was graceful aging, and at 84, he is a good example.

Louis, I was thinking of citing this individual as someone who had managed to set status aside, but I quickly did a double take, because he IS the Dalai Lama.

Whether he wants it or not, he carries the load of heavy status, both within his community, but world wide.

I think that the need for status varies as a genetic variation, observable within families.

I'm making a wild guess here, but I'll bet that need-for-status is one of the variables considered by astronaut selection committees.

At the same time, it occurs to me that individuals qualifying for final selection in NASA projects are (most likely) already well aware of their superiority in many respects to the rest of humanity, so status would be built into that situation.

Thanks to the two of you for a meaty subject.

(th)

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#85 2020-01-11 21:03:28

louis
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From: UK
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Posts: 5,870

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

Interestingly, the issue of "need for status" came up in the Apollo 11 Mission book I've just been reading.

Buzz Aldrin was desperate to get the status of being the first person to step on the Moon's surface. It was his desperation (including lobbying other astronauts, to their great annoyance) that made NASA feel uneasy about choosing him for the role, despite the second in command normally being the one who carried out an EVA.

In the end they went with Armstrong who was in many ways a kind of egoless human being (which made people feel he was rather distant and cold at times).  That turned out to be the right choice.  Armstrong took the role seriously as a representative for his country and indeed for the whole of humanity -  and  that is why he came up with those marvellous first words. I expect Buzz Aldrin would have started with "As I place my foot on the Moon's surface and become the first man in the universe and the whole of history to do so..."

Armstrong always focussed on the success of the mission.

Not that Buzz isn't a great guy!  He's been a consistent supporter of Mars colonisation for one thing. smile  But he clearly was highly driven to achieve status.



tahanson43206 wrote:

For Louis re #83 and SpaceNut for #82

It is good to see your combined gentle dive into human psychology.  kbd512 and GW Johnson have both weighed in with observations in earlier times.

By purest coincidence I caught a brief interview with the Dalai Lama recently.  The subject was graceful aging, and at 84, he is a good example.

Louis, I was thinking of citing this individual as someone who had managed to set status aside, but I quickly did a double take, because he IS the Dalai Lama.

Whether he wants it or not, he carries the load of heavy status, both within his community, but world wide.

I think that the need for status varies as a genetic variation, observable within families.

I'm making a wild guess here, but I'll bet that need-for-status is one of the variables considered by astronaut selection committees.

At the same time, it occurs to me that individuals qualifying for final selection in NASA projects are (most likely) already well aware of their superiority in many respects to the rest of humanity, so status would be built into that situation.

Thanks to the two of you for a meaty subject.

(th)


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#86 2020-01-12 08:09:04

tahanson43206
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Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

For Louis re #85 ...

Thank you for your perspective on NASA's decision.  I've read commentary by others on this subject, but your perspective on a search for status is new (to me at least) and quite interesting in the context of crew selection for missions, regardless of scale.

We are in the "City rises" topic, which has been dormant for a while.  It will take a LOT of strong egos, somehow working together, to bring your vision to pass.

***
Here is something to think about for crew selection ...

The volunteer activity I've been supporting in recent months draws a wide variety of personality types.

Included in the mix are students who are required to do volunteer work as part of their curriculum.  This is a practice which may have existed in times past, but if it did I was blissfully unaware of it.

Human traits (are reported to) fall on a bell curve, so it should not be surprising that performance varies from the rare human dynamo to the (fortunately) equally rare non-performer.  I bring this up because energy level is a reasonable factor to consider in crew selection.

For SpaceNut .... a few posts ago, probably in another topic, you mentioned My Hacienda in connection with gathering of participants who will be willing to take on responsibility for specialization within the context of Louis' City on the Plain.  It occurs to me (in the context of Louis' status discussion) that people often identified in job openings as 'self starters' are going to be needed to fill the positions.

At this point, we have not settled upon an outreach campaign to find participants.  The extent of outreach so far has been posts inside this forum, and a limited amount of publicity (indirectly) at luf.org.

In order for any campaign to gather momentum, the outreach effort needs to increase in level.

Louis' insights about status may play a part .... "Be the first in your block to ..." is a phrase I remember from long ago.  It might still work today.

(th)

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#87 2020-01-12 11:34:06

louis
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From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,870

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

One thing I would say is that big organisations are quite good at restraining egotistical behaviour. Buzz might have wanted to be first, but in the end he had to accept NASA's decision, because he was committed to the Mission and because he was, when you get down to it, a replaceable "unit" within the overall enterprise. At the time NASA also had a monopoly on space exploration in the USA. There was nowhere else for him to go.

That's another reason why I tend to favour a Hudson Bay Company-style approach to Mars settlement and would argue for the creation of a single dominant settlement organisation, a Mars Corporation. To allow a competitive free for all would likely unleash too many ego battles (leaving aside issues like health and safety). A single Corporation with a clear plan will be able to channel people's ego drive and status desire.

tahanson43206 wrote:

For Louis re #85 ...

Thank you for your perspective on NASA's decision.  I've read commentary by others on this subject, but your perspective on a search for status is new (to me at least) and quite interesting in the context of crew selection for missions, regardless of scale.

We are in the "City rises" topic, which has been dormant for a while.  It will take a LOT of strong egos, somehow working together, to bring your vision to pass.

***
Here is something to think about for crew selection ...

The volunteer activity I've been supporting in recent months draws a wide variety of personality types.

Included in the mix are students who are required to do volunteer work as part of their curriculum.  This is a practice which may have existed in times past, but if it did I was blissfully unaware of it.

Human traits (are reported to) fall on a bell curve, so it should not be surprising that performance varies from the rare human dynamo to the (fortunately) equally rare non-performer.  I bring this up because energy level is a reasonable factor to consider in crew selection.

For SpaceNut .... a few posts ago, probably in another topic, you mentioned My Hacienda in connection with gathering of participants who will be willing to take on responsibility for specialization within the context of Louis' City on the Plain.  It occurs to me (in the context of Louis' status discussion) that people often identified in job openings as 'self starters' are going to be needed to fill the positions.

At this point, we have not settled upon an outreach campaign to find participants.  The extent of outreach so far has been posts inside this forum, and a limited amount of publicity (indirectly) at luf.org.

In order for any campaign to gather momentum, the outreach effort needs to increase in level.

Louis' insights about status may play a part .... "Be the first in your block to ..." is a phrase I remember from long ago.  It might still work today.

(th)


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#88 2020-01-18 11:44:47

SpaceNut
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Posts: 19,711

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

louis wrote:

Ok, in the light of the above, some conclusions on a feasible way forward:

HOW A MARS ECONOMY MIGHT WORK   

Starting conditions

This analysis assumes that it will be Space X who first take humans to Mars.   Space X remains committed to rapid colonisation of Mars and eventual terraformation of the planet. Space X colonisation effort goes forward with minimal interference from the US Government but with strong support from NASA in terms of satellite surveys, communications with Earth and general information exchange.
It assumes that other potential colonisers of Mars have not yet established bases on Mars.

[I have avoided speculation as to whether confirmatory evidence of existing or pre-existing life forms have been discovered as that could be an absolute game-changer.]   

After 30 Years 

This analysis looks at how Mars’s economy might look after 30 years.


Dominant Economic Actors   

The following might be the dominant economic actors:

1.    Space X - this will dominate transit services.
2.    Mars Corporation - this company will be the major player on the surface of Mars. It will be a consortium with Space X as majority shareholder, but involving other companies like Bigelow, Apple, Samsung and others.
3.    Mars Governing Council - 30 years after the first humans land on Mars, there could already be a nascent government controlling tax revenue. The Governing Council includes a proportion of elected representatives.
4.    Universities.  A coalition of Universities will establish a research facility and post grad centre on Mars.
5.    Space Agencies. NASA will be the chief space agency involved in Mars’s economic development but agencies from other countries like ESA, ISA, JAXA and others will be important.

The Mars Corporation accounts for 45% of GDP.  Space X for 25% Mars Governing Council for 20% and others for 10%. 

Orientation

The Mars economy will lean towards centralised planning as opposed to free market development. However, it will respect property rights and be seeking to develop free markets where appropriate.

The Mars Governing Council and Mars Corporation publish a joint “Mars Development Plan” - a rolling ten year plan which is revised every three years.  “Partners” with the Mars Corporation (e.g. Space X ) sign up to the plan as part of their contractual obligations.

The Mars Corporation will follow an Amazon-style economic model, ploughing profits into further investment.

Financial Institutions 

The Mars Governing Council has established the following:

Mars Central Bank (main function is to control operation of the Mars currency).

Mars Savings Bank (for Mars residents to deposit their earnings).

MIF: Mars Investment Fund (for private investors wishing to invest in the Mars economy).

MIF Bond - Pays 5% per annum on 50 year bonds

Mars Infrastructure Fund (a mix of MGC and private investors funding for longer term projects)


Currency   

The Mars Governing Council has established a Mars Currency - the “Ares”. This currency is fixed at parity against the US Dollar, so 1 US Dollar buys 1 Ares.  All transactions on Mars are via the Ares.

Monetary policy is designed to expand the economy rapidly. Quantitative easing is used by the Mars Central Bank to buy Mars MIF Bonds.

  Population and Settlement Area

The population of Mars is 10,000 of whom 4,000 are long term residents with voting rights re the Mars Governing Council .  Long term residents are those persons engaged on Mars on contracts longer than 3 years.

The main settlement is at Sagan City, located near the original settlement location in Amazonis Planitia.

There are some 200 mining outposts, research outposts, tourist locations (Olympus Mons and several locations  around Valles Marieneris, plus the original Viking Lander Locations and the “death trails” of now defunct rovers).  Spreading out from Sagan City there are five main road trails with some 60 branches).

Mars’s Diversified Economy   

In line with the Mars Development Plan (MDP) Mars already has a very diversified economy including:

-    Agriculture. 95% of food consumed is produced on Mars.
-    Energy.  99% of energy used on Mars is produced on Mars.
-    Mining.  There are mining operations taking place at hundreds of locations, some with human involvement, some entirely dependent
        on robots.  Mining and atmospheric extraction supplies 95% of the colony’s needs.
-    Chemicals and raw material processing.
-    Manufacturing
-    Construction
-      Marketing, advertising and sponsorship.
-      Transport
-    Health
-    Sports and leisure
-    Retail sector


Space X - Mars   

Provides transit services to and from Mars and Rocket Hopper services on Mars, manufactures rocket fuel and also operates the Spaceport Services.

2000 people per annum transit to Mars each year plus 1000 tons of cargo there and back.

Generating c $2 billion in revenue of which $200 million profit.

Mars Corporation   

Provides habitation, life support, leisure facilities, surface transport, exploration missions, manufacturing, agricultural and food services,  and curating science experiments.

It has several divisions: Construction, Transport,  Energy Generation,  Habitation and Life Support, Industry and Mining , Agriculture and Food and General Services.

Generates:  $4 billion per annum

Revenue:         From rent and hiring:  $ 500 million
                     From curating science experiments: $750 million 
                     From construction services:  $750 million
                     From surface transport services: $500 million
                     From servicing exploration missions: $500 million
                     From industry and mining (inc water supply): $500 miillion
                     From operations management: $500 million
                     

Mars Governing Council

(Comprising 1/3 Space X appointees, 1/3 Mars Corporation and 1/3 elected annually by vote of persons resident on Mars for longer than one year)

Provides governance of Mars including health and welfare, and social services.  Has control over commercial sponsorship and TV etc rights.

Revenue:

Import Tax:   $100 million
Export Tax:   $100 million
Spaceport tax on individuals:  $100 million
Financial transactions Tax:  $50 million
Property occupation licence payments: $100 million
Mars Sales tax:  $100 million
Sale of Mars Bonds:  $1000 million
Commercial sponsorship/marketing licensing - $700 million
TV and film licensing/photographic rights/publishing  -  $300 million
Total:  $2,600 million

Expenditure:

Interest on bonds (bonds issued totalling $5 billion to date):  $250 million
Mars Investment Fund:  $500 million
Mars Settlement Fund:  $1000 million
Central administration and planning - $20 million
Health and Welfare - $100 million  (200 health staff)
Leisure and culture - $300 million
Transportation - $ 200 million
Communications - $200 million
Safety and Security -  $100 million

Personal Income

Average wages on Mars are c $100,000 per annum. Up to 50% can be repatriated to Earth.

Taxation

There is no income tax. Taxes are levied on imports, exports, rocket fuel production,  financial transactions, energy generation,  personal wealth, retail sales, tourism and Spaceport arrivals,

Pricing

Prices are generally set by the Mars Corporation. Pricing policy is used to limit import of luxury goods from Earth and encourage development on Mars ISRU industries.

Food prices are set to encourage health eating and limited demand for more complex food products.

Basic cafeterias provide free food for all Mars Corporation and MGC employees. Other residents on Mars are charged a basic fee which may be covered by their employer e.g. Universities.  There are several restaurants which charge for meals.

Capital Investment

Capital investment flows mainly through the Mars Investment Fund (MIF) and the Mars Settlement Fund (MSF) and through direct investment by the Mars Corporation, Space X, Universities, Space Agencies and the Mars Governing Council. 

These agencies investment in new manufacturing centres, new habitation, new Earth-like-Environments,  sports and leisure facilities, new roadtrails, hotels and so on.

NASA for instance has ploughed $1 billion over ten years into the NASA Mars Research Centre and has plans to build its own Spaceport.
Significant new investment projects over the next few years include the Mars Observatory, Mars Biological Research Centre, Mars CO2 Sublimation Engine,  Mars Museum, the Robotics Centre, the Mars Polar Centre and the Southern Hemisphere Roadtrail. 

Settlement Policy

Persons destined to work for the Mars Corporation or Mars Governing Council have their fare paid for by the Mars Settlement Fund.  Persons and cargo for other companies, universities and so on are charged - currently $2 million per person.

Most settlers are engaged on 2-5 years contracts.

Rule of Law and Property Rights

The Mars Governing Council issues Directives which have the force of law, back up by penalties including fines,  percentage salary attachments and obligatory return (to Earth).

Although the Outer Space Treaty is still in operation,  the MGC issues land occupation licences to companies and individuals on terms varying between 1 and 50 years.  These licences require productive use of land in line with the Mars Development Plan, including zoning restrictions.

Health services are provided free of charge.

There is a legal framework for employment rights and a minimum living wage.

Starting point is are a hugh dot size compared to actuality of where we are currently with launch and landing capability for mars.

So a progression of how to go from where we are to where we want to be needs to happen.

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#89 2020-01-18 15:29:45

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,870

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

Well we do know Space X are committed to building a settlement, a city. We do know they are developing a credible means of transit (there doesn't seem to be anything in principle that will prevent them getting to Mars).

I am sceptical about Musk's assumption that you can get a successful mass colonisation effort started on Mars almost immediately. So I am presenting a more conservative case for how economic development might go...


SpaceNut wrote:
louis wrote:

Ok, in the light of the above, some conclusions on a feasible way forward:

HOW A MARS ECONOMY MIGHT WORK   


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#90 2020-02-12 08:17:09

tahanson43206
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Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

This is for Louis ...

Dr. Zubrin has just announced a competition to design a 1,000,000 person city to be built on Mars.  Since you have been working for some time in this area of interest, I hope you will consider marshaling the human resources to help you lead a team to compete.

A book summarizing the previous competition is now available for purchase in paperback or eBook versions.  That competition was for design of a 1000 person community on Mars.

(th)

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#91 2020-02-12 11:48:45

SpaceNut
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Posts: 19,711

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

This is also a challege to the My Hacienda topic as well to show how we can grow a settlement for what we need to be able to stay and to sustain those that arrive as scheduled. Its an expotential curve for sure and not a flat line linear function this build up. I have to go to listen to the broadcast as I was not able to do so yet.
Had to work on my earthly rover as it blew a spark plug out of its threads as they were stripped. Had to fix it to day with a helic coil designed for aluminum head repair. Tapping the hole for the insert threads and then putting in a new plug much to open driveway repair in the ice and snow its in and functioning.

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#92 2020-02-12 12:15:00

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,546

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

For SpaceNut re #91

Congratulations on your success in completing what sounds (to me) like a significant driveway repair.

That kind of on-site adaptability and creative thinking will surely be necessary and much appreciated in a My Hacienda community on Mars, or on Earth, for that matter. 

(th)

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#93 2020-02-13 04:11:25

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,870

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

Thanks TA. Will look into that. They are probably looking for a more technical treatise than my impressionistic outline, but you never know...

I do think that the likelihood is that a Sagan City style settlement will grow up on the Arcadia/Amazonia planitia, probably wherever Space X first land.  A plain with close-by water resources will be perfect for further development. We can then imagine roads leading to resource-rich areas (water, iron ore, basalt, silica, gold etc) in the north west region of Mars over an area similar to continental USA and to tourist destinations like Olympus Mons and Valles Marineris. 

tahanson43206 wrote:

This is for Louis ...

Dr. Zubrin has just announced a competition to design a 1,000,000 person city to be built on Mars.  Since you have been working for some time in this area of interest, I hope you will consider marshaling the human resources to help you lead a team to compete.

A book summarizing the previous competition is now available for purchase in paperback or eBook versions.  That competition was for design of a 1000 person community on Mars.

(th)


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#94 2020-02-13 07:48:19

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,546

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

For Louis re #93

The key for success (in my opinion) is building a team to work on this project.

London is a city large enough to have a population with the necessary interest, motivation, education, skills and time to work on this project.

Any such team needs a visionary leader who has the unique skill set to draw out the talent of the team members, while keeping the group pointed in the direction of the shared goal of a win in the competition.

The process would start (necessarily) with publicity from the visionary leader, announcing the contest and offering to serve as a focal point for a coordinated effort to produce the needed documents and media presentation.

(th)

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#95 2020-02-13 16:54:56

Ancient Mars
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2020-02-01
Posts: 8

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

I volunteer to move to Sagan City. My only request is that I work at the agricultural labs, preferably the greenhouse part of it, if there is a greenhouse.

Also, this thread totally reminds of of Artemis, by Andy Weir!

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#96 2020-02-14 07:01:38

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,870

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

Never heard of that, but shall look into that. (Just did - I see they are making a film of it for release in 2021 - will be interesting to see how they visualise the city on the Moon.)

I think working in the greenhouses could be very satisfying work, knowing how vital your contribution is, in producing and harvesting good quality crops.

Personally, I think I'd like to work in either the central administration or as a parks manager in one of the covered gorges would be my preference!

Ancient Mars wrote:

I volunteer to move to Sagan City. My only request is that I work at the agricultural labs, preferably the greenhouse part of it, if there is a greenhouse.

Also, this thread totally reminds of of Artemis, by Andy Weir!


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#97 2020-02-14 13:44:51

Ancient Mars
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2020-02-01
Posts: 8

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

Yes, working in either a greenhouse or a park would be awesome; I just want to go to Mars while still being near nature.

Also, is their a tourist complex in Sagan City yet? I know that it would be one heck of an expensive vacation, and a long one too! Six months to get there, perhaps a month on the surface, and then another six months back. But I do think there would be plenty that are willing to go and also have enough money. (E.g. Elon Musk.)

Last edited by Ancient Mars (2020-02-14 14:43:36)

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#98 2020-02-14 14:50:18

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,870

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

I've suggested before that Mars could become a tourist destination for the children of the super-rich - a new type of "gap year", one that will look pretty amazing on a CV and which will be a kind of status symbol.

I believe Musk has talked about getting the journey down to 3 months.  A direct shot would make that possible. It might be that supertransporters from LEO to LMO will be developed.

So, yes I imagine there will be a tourist complex in Sagan City. Maybe you will take the supertransporter to Mars and live there for a year. This might involve making some kind of contribution of labour  (in the same way young people work on charity projects in poorer parts of the world).  Maybe gap year students would be a good source of workers for less technical labour e.g. food processing, sports and leisure, parks work and working in retail outlets. 

They would no doubt go on exploration missions as well, and visit well known tourist landmarks like Olympus Mons, Valles Marineris and the Viking Lander locations.

Ancient Mars wrote:

Yes, working in either a greenhouse or a park would be awesome; I just want to go to Mars while still being near nature.

Also, is their a tourist complex in Sagan City yet? I know that it would be one heck of an expensive vacation, and a long one too! Six months their, perhaps a month on the surface, and then another six months back. But I do think there would be plenty that are willing to go and also have enough money. (E.g. Elon Musk.)


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#99 2020-04-03 17:28:29

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,711

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

Happened on this http://starcity.mit.edu/

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#100 2020-04-03 17:44:45

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,870

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

I think a growth model for the city based on function rather than cultural diversity is the way to go. The Star City project presents a horrible vision of replicating Istanbul, from the days of the Ottoman Caliphate, with its several quarters for different ethnic groups who then all had to vie for influence at the crazy  Ottoman Court. I can't really think of a worse idea! But it's not surprising it won a prize in this day and age.

The city should grow functionally. You need a Spaceport, so you need a spaceport zone and it can't be too close to the main residential areas...you need an area for handling dangerous gases and propellant, a chemical plant...again can't be close to residences or the Spaceport...you need major Life Support Hubs, which have to be close to the residential areas...you need energy generation zones (this will cover vast areas of the city if they are PV power)...you need sports centres...you don't want them too far from the residential zones or too close to the chemical plant...so on and so on...The City will or should evolve along these lines. There will be a strong element of planning because on Mars a freewheeling free market approach could be dangerous, but within that planning framework there will be plenty of scope for entrepreneurial activity: there might be a light industrial zone but anyone could pay for a licence to operate there as long as they obey the health and safety regulations.



SpaceNut wrote:

Happened on this http://starcity.mit.edu/


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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