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#26 2018-12-09 15:53:44

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,704

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

They're welcome on board. smile

tahanson43206 wrote:

Louis,

Here is some local talent you might be able to recruit for a Sagan City project of some kind:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/07/27-year … mazon.html

(th)

Last edited by louis (2018-12-09 15:54:10)


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#27 2018-12-09 17:39:09

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 904

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

Hi Louis!

Thanks for noting the proximity of these youthful entrepreneurs.  They won't know they are welcome if you just tell the NewMars forum, but that is an essential first step, which you have completed.

You suggested the solar panels might have cords to yank to clear dust.  These folks appear to have the ability to yank those cords, if that's what you think is best.

They would need a ride to Mars, and since Britain has not yet successfully deployed a working probe, this might be just the ticket to reawaken the public spirit.

Heck ... they could stop by the Beagle to see what might be salvaged, as a first activity.

(th)

louis wrote:

They're welcome on board. smile

tahanson43206 wrote:

Louis,

Here is some local talent you might be able to recruit for a Sagan City project of some kind:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/07/27-year … mazon.html

(th)

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#28 2018-12-09 18:55:12

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,806

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

Here is the original Sagan City that goes with the time lines in this one...

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#29 2018-12-09 19:37:35

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,704

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

Mars 2036

Musk’s  departure from Earth, heading for retirement on Mars, where he intends to die stirs up a storm of media interest on Earth.  Mars is big news and Musk - one of the richest people on the planet - is even bigger news.

The MDC has agreed to the formation of a Mars Council to regulate affairs on Mars separately from the company itself, as a legally discrete entity.  This has caused tension back on Earth, where the UN is attempting to put in place a Mars Settlement Compact that will regulate affairs on Mars.

It is intended that the Council will eventually become democratically controlled by all Mars residents but for the time being its appointments remain under the control of the MDC. One development is that the CEO is renamed as the President of the Council.
One of the first acts of the new Council is to declare Elon Musk “First Citizen” - an honorary title in recognition of his role in making human settlement on Mars a reality. 

Musk is interviewed by Mars TV and declares that “Mars is more beautiful than I could ever imagine”. He says that being on Mars is “like feeling 50 pounds lighter and 10 years younger”.  He says he’s looking forward to going to the basketball match on Viking night. (The Mars “week” of ten sols - the “tensol” - has named days referencing the history of space and Mars exploration - the named sols are Apollo, Saturn,  Soyuz,  Challenger, Sputnik, Viking, Spirit, Opportunity, Olympus and Mariner). 

Musk has brought with him in his own dedicated BFR Starship a personal inflatable hab where he intends to live and  an agrihab based on his decades’ old idea of a pop-up growing facility. 

More importantly, he has with him assembly parts for the physical home of his Mars Institute of Technology and Enterprise . (MITE) MITE is intended to be fully operational and receiving students for its Post Grad “Studies in Mars Settlement” course within the next year.  MITE Will offer three separate post grad courses in SMS,  Technology  on Mars and Mars Terraformation.  Elon Musk, who is now a trillionaire (thanks to the global success of Tesla, his solar battery operation, Starlink, Space X and now the MDC) has gifted MITE with a further $7 billion over the next 10 years. This enormous investment attracts a lot of attention back on Earth.

It is envisaged that a minimum of 2000 academics and students will be teaching or studying at MITE over the next 10 years as a result.  Musk envisages that many MITE students will decide to stay on Mars and “seed” the growth of the colony. .

The advent of the new BFR Starship A  is having a huge impact already on Mars.  People can now reach Mars in under 4 months - sometimes under  2 months - at any time of year.  This is leading to many new projects and sponsored event.

One such event is the Nike 100 Metre Solar System Super Challenge.    Working with Guinness Book of Records, this promoted event took 5 of Earth’s top sprinters to Mars for a 100 metres  attempt to surpass the Earth record and set a new Mars and Solar System record.  There were 10 races over a period of 2 months following a month long acclimatisation period.  A new record of 8.41 seconds was established by Conrad Jones from the USA. The events were televised back on Earth and gained huge attention.

The BFR Starship A is also ushering in an era of Mars Tourism.  The sons and daughters of the mega rich on Earth are flocking to visit Mars for a few months.  Space X Travel is offering a 9 month (average) package tour - 3 months travelling to Mars followed by 3 months stay on Mars (which takes in Rover and Rocket Hopper trips to Olympus Mons, Valles Marineris, Viking Lander site, the North Pole and several other sites of interest), then 3 months return to Earth with a one week stopover on the Moon at the Armstrong Lunar Hotel . The waiting list for the Mars Tour stands at over 15,000.  Currently only 1,000 people per annum can be accommodated.

What is the skyline of Sagan City looking like?  Standing in the Old Area of the City you have behind you the impressive monument of the first human-lander on Mars - the original 2024 BFR Starship still standing tall on the surface at the very spot it landed. 
Looking out you see the rising ground of the developing city…The city is gradually getting taller.

There is the new Central Tower of  The Emporium - a five storey high tower that has excellent radiation protection…where people can view the Mars surface for miles around for up to 20 minutes.  At The Emporium, residents and tourists can shop at a number of boutiques and specialist shops.  Here they can buy souvenirs of their time on Mars.  There are three well regarded restaurants at The Emporium.  The food served at these restaurants is prepared by robot chefs and also served by robots. Table clearing and washing up is also handled by robots. A restaurant manager is in attendance and a “Provisioner” ensures the robot chefs have all the right ingredients to hand.  But otherwise human involvement in the restaurant enterprises is minimal.

There are now three well established sports on Mars - the three “Bs”: basketball, badminton and boules, all very well adapted to the space available in Sagan City.  There are now three separate sports and gym centres.  The largest is the newly completed Basketball Centre.

The Old Area itself now boasts a sculpture park, a tree hab, a night time light display and  a pressurised circular walkway.

The Mars Development Plan had envisaged this being a period of consolidation but the combination of the impact of the new BFR Starship A and Musk’s huge MITE investment have marked the start of a boom on Mars. Population has shot up to 1240  - a growth of about 700 in just two years.   

The official Domicile Maximum is still 4 years but there is growing confidence this can be extended.

China and the ESA have both announced plans to establish their own bases on Mars within the next 4 years, following on from their successful establishment of lunar bases.  The UN Secretary General has argued that Mars should become a UN territory governed by the UN.  These developments are prompting discussions within Space X, MDC and the nascent Mars institutions like MITE and the Mars Council about how to respond.

Musk, newly arrived on the planet, has established a website called The Mars Oracle . He is already using this to call for the immediate establishment of a global Mars Republic based on democratic principles with its own constitution.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#30 2018-12-10 07:36:16

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 904

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

Louis,

Thanks for continuing development of your vision for Sagan City.

A city is a social construct.  A vision is a significant framework upon which humans can build.

I am pulling one small section from your 2036 article to invite your consideration of action you can take now to improve probability that your vision will be realized.  The permanent representative to the United Nations from Great Britain is Dame karen Pierce, according to sources collected by Mr. Google.

I'm hoping to encourage you to contact Dame Pierce to invite her to support an initiative to recognize Mars as an Antarctic style conflict free zone. My opinion is your mention of UN recognition of Mars is about 18 years too late.  Conflict is inevitable when great human powers are butting heads, but the Antarctic example shows that "civilized" behavior is possible. 

Earlier, you have demurred from selecting borders for Sagan City.  This is an oversight you may wish to correct, as you prepare for your conversation with representatives of Dame Pierce's office.  No human being is going to take seriously a claim to founding of a city if borders are not clearly defined.

You are off to a terrific start by selecting a location for the City Center.

Things are in a state of such flux here in the States, I am doubtful this is a good time for a contact along these lines with the office of the UN Ambassador from the US.  On the other hand, if a contact from a US resident in support of your initiative would be worth trying, I'm willing to make the attempt.

Begin Quotation:
Karen Pierce - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Pierce
Dame Karen Elizabeth Pierce, DCMG (born 23 September 1959) is a British diplomat who is the Permanent Representative of the United Kingdom to the United Nations.
Career · Offices held
End Quotation.

(th)

louis wrote:

Mars 2036

China and the ESA have both announced plans to establish their own bases on Mars within the next 4 years, following on from their successful establishment of lunar bases.  The UN Secretary General has argued that Mars should become a UN territory governed by the UN.  These developments are prompting discussions within Space X, MDC and the nascent Mars institutions like MITE and the Mars Council about how to respond.

Musk, newly arrived on the planet, has established a website called The Mars Oracle . He is already using this to call for the immediate establishment of a global Mars Republic based on democratic principles with its own constitution.

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#31 2018-12-10 11:32:32

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,704

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

My comments are:

1. Yes, a vision of what the city could be is helpful I think. I don't claim mine is the only valid vision.

2.  I am not convinced an Antarctic deal for Mars is the best way forward. I can see why you might think it is...sometimes I have.
The UN is already involving itself in this area:

http://www.unoosa.org/oosa/en/aboutus/r … ities.html

But I have detected a lot of anti-human exploration and anti-colonisation sentiment influencing the UN's deliberations.

3.  I think the only chance of Mars ever becoming a peaceful planet that leaves behind the territorialism of Earth states is if we have a rapid colonisation moving to a single global democratic entity which can control the creation of future settlements.

4.  If we follow the Antarctic model, we will end up with Chinese Bases, and American bases, and Islamic bases, and European bases and Indian bases...I think national tensions will be exported to Mars from Earth.




tahanson43206 wrote:

Louis,

Thanks for continuing development of your vision for Sagan City.

A city is a social construct.  A vision is a significant framework upon which humans can build.

I am pulling one small section from your 2036 article to invite your consideration of action you can take now to improve probability that your vision will be realized.  The permanent representative to the United Nations from Great Britain is Dame karen Pierce, according to sources collected by Mr. Google.

I'm hoping to encourage you to contact Dame Pierce to invite her to support an initiative to recognize Mars as an Antarctic style conflict free zone. My opinion is your mention of UN recognition of Mars is about 18 years too late.  Conflict is inevitable when great human powers are butting heads, but the Antarctic example shows that "civilized" behavior is possible. 

Earlier, you have demurred from selecting borders for Sagan City.  This is an oversight you may wish to correct, as you prepare for your conversation with representatives of Dame Pierce's office.  No human being is going to take seriously a claim to founding of a city if borders are not clearly defined.

You are off to a terrific start by selecting a location for the City Center.

Things are in a state of such flux here in the States, I am doubtful this is a good time for a contact along these lines with the office of the UN Ambassador from the US.  On the other hand, if a contact from a US resident in support of your initiative would be worth trying, I'm willing to make the attempt.

Begin Quotation:
Karen Pierce - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Pierce
Dame Karen Elizabeth Pierce, DCMG (born 23 September 1959) is a British diplomat who is the Permanent Representative of the United Kingdom to the United Nations.
Career · Offices held
End Quotation.

(th)

louis wrote:

Mars 2036

China and the ESA have both announced plans to establish their own bases on Mars within the next 4 years, following on from their successful establishment of lunar bases.  The UN Secretary General has argued that Mars should become a UN territory governed by the UN.  These developments are prompting discussions within Space X, MDC and the nascent Mars institutions like MITE and the Mars Council about how to respond.

Musk, newly arrived on the planet, has established a website called The Mars Oracle . He is already using this to call for the immediate establishment of a global Mars Republic based on democratic principles with its own constitution.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#32 2018-12-10 15:45:48

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 904

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

Louis,

Thanks for the link to the UN committee on Outer Space ...

A quick search of the web site did not reveal anything about policy recommendations, so I sent an inquiry.

Begin Quotation:
Does [UNOOSA] have a standing policy for settlement of Mars?  There is a risk of conflict between major nations as settlement of Mars proceeds. 

A model for a policy to reduce risk of conflict appears to be the set of agreements arrived at for Antarctica.  However, the distribution of land in Antarctica is not reflective of the distribution of land among nations on Earth.  In the case of Mars, there exists the potential to address the issue of distribution of land before humans "take possession" of the planet.
End Quotation.

(th)

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#33 2018-12-10 19:21:21

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,704

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

My concern is that the UNOOSA is unduly influenced by COSPAR -

https://cosparhq.cnes.fr/about

COSPAR has a very restrictive policy on what it calls "planetary protection" which I see as an anti-colonisation strategy:

https://cosparhq.cnes.fr/scientific-structure/ppp

If you let the UN dominate Mars exploration and settlement, they will restrict it. This is in the interests of space agencies that are now way behind Space X in terms of a Mars capability.  They will back a restrictive approach to "planetary protection". But once they have the capability they will establish bases on Mars. Initially these may be like the Antarctic bases but I don't think it will be too long before people realise that Mars has huge capacity for settlement. 

I don't think it will take long before these "bases" become national settlements. We will see religious groups of various types - Baptists, Scientologists, Islamic groups etc want to get in on the action.

Before you know it, Mars will be replicating all of Earth's petty divisions and hatreds.

tahanson43206 wrote:

Louis,

Thanks for the link to the UN committee on Outer Space ...

A quick search of the web site did not reveal anything about policy recommendations, so I sent an inquiry.

Begin Quotation:
Does [UNOOSA] have a standing policy for settlement of Mars?  There is a risk of conflict between major nations as settlement of Mars proceeds. 

A model for a policy to reduce risk of conflict appears to be the set of agreements arrived at for Antarctica.  However, the distribution of land in Antarctica is not reflective of the distribution of land among nations on Earth.  In the case of Mars, there exists the potential to address the issue of distribution of land before humans "take possession" of the planet.
End Quotation.

(th)


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#34 2018-12-10 20:00:15

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 904

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

Hi Louis,

Thanks for both those links ... the first did not come up (timed out) but the second did, and I pulled down the pdf policy document.

That is too much to read right now, but I'm interested in taking a closer look in the new future.

In the mean time, I note that you have been setting down elements that might become part of "Louis's Planetary Protection Policy"

The prohibition against religion is interesting but (to my mind impractical) my guess is that human beings invent or adopt religion as a basic need.

My interpretation is that religions are software for neural networks.  They've evolved with human brains, and (I suspect) will continue to evolve as human beings gain better understanding of the Universe.  An attempt to ban religion is (to my way of thinking) equivalent to banning human beings.

Your vision may include concepts that are designed to limit conflict between individuals or groups, but I've not yet had time to study your recent flow of articles in order to know.

In the mean time, I'd like to remind you that what exists today at the United Nations is subject to change, and you are in a position (as a UK citizen) to attempt to bring about beneficial change through your official representative to the UN.

With so much going on right now in the UK, the good lady might appreciate a change of pace ... something else to think about.

(th)

louis wrote:

My concern is that the UNOOSA is unduly influenced by COSPAR -

https://cosparhq.cnes.fr/about

COSPAR has a very restrictive policy on what it calls "planetary protection" which I see as an anti-colonisation strategy:

https://cosparhq.cnes.fr/scientific-structure/ppp

If you let the UN dominate Mars exploration and settlement, they will restrict it. This is in the interests of space agencies that are now way behind Space X in terms of a Mars capability.  They will back a restrictive approach to "planetary protection". But once they have the capability they will establish bases on Mars. Initially these may be like the Antarctic bases but I don't think it will be too long before people realise that Mars has huge capacity for settlement. 

I don't think it will take long before these "bases" become national settlements. We will see religious groups of various types - Baptists, Scientologists, Islamic groups etc want to get in on the action.

Before you know it, Mars will be replicating all of Earth's petty divisions and hatreds.

Offline

#35 2018-12-10 20:36:40

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,704

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

I haven't suggested any prohibition on religion. But all societies have to take a view on religions and their rights.  How do you define a religion? Do they get tax exemption? Do you have a state religion? -amazingly we still have one in the UK! Can the religion defy your laws? Yes/no/to some extent (religious exceptions).  Can religions follow their own legal systems, have their own courts? You have to address these questions, because religions make you address them. The idea that a Mars Colony could avoid answering the questions is naive. Sooner or later the big religions and the rich religions (think Scientology) will target Mars.  How are you going to respond?

I think a Mars Colony should seek to control public expressions of religion. It's really an extension of the secular idea to include not just state-owned public buildings but also all public areas and facilities. 

Religious groups are always claiming they mean well and are happy to co-operate with other religious groups -  well, personally I would want to hold them to that on Mars. If they want a place of public worship, there should be rules about sharing that place with other religions. If they want a religious school, OK but put in place a requirement that they attract 75% pupils who are not members of their religion.

You have to understand that there is a zero sum game going on.  Religions don't allow space for other opinions. That is really what defines a religion - they claim their views are true in some sort of absolute sense, for all time.  Every claim of religion is a claim on others' freedom of thought. That's why you have to be robust in how you deal with religion, which I agree is a kind of software we have evolved to deal with the existential challenges of being a complex conscious entity in the world. Religion is a way of engaging with reality. But it is not the only way. I think the Mars Colony should put resources into encouraging scientific, artistic and philosophical engagement with reality as alternatives to religion because that will lead to a happier society, in my view. When we look at human history it has only really been when a particular religion has held a monopoly on a society that it has really contributed to human progress.  In the absence of the monopoly, it's really a recipe for petty conflict at best and outright enmity at worst.

We need to be robust and realistic in our approach to religion on Mars. 


tahanson43206 wrote:

Hi Louis,

Thanks for both those links ... the first did not come up (timed out) but the second did, and I pulled down the pdf policy document.

That is too much to read right now, but I'm interested in taking a closer look in the new future.

In the mean time, I note that you have been setting down elements that might become part of "Louis's Planetary Protection Policy"

The prohibition against religion is interesting but (to my mind impractical) my guess is that human beings invent or adopt religion as a basic need.

My interpretation is that religions are software for neural networks.  They've evolved with human brains, and (I suspect) will continue to evolve as human beings gain better understanding of the Universe.  An attempt to ban religion is (to my way of thinking) equivalent to banning human beings.

Your vision may include concepts that are designed to limit conflict between individuals or groups, but I've not yet had time to study your recent flow of articles in order to know.

In the mean time, I'd like to remind you that what exists today at the United Nations is subject to change, and you are in a position (as a UK citizen) to attempt to bring about beneficial change through your official representative to the UN.

With so much going on right now in the UK, the good lady might appreciate a change of pace ... something else to think about.

(th)

louis wrote:

My concern is that the UNOOSA is unduly influenced by COSPAR -

https://cosparhq.cnes.fr/about

COSPAR has a very restrictive policy on what it calls "planetary protection" which I see as an anti-colonisation strategy:

https://cosparhq.cnes.fr/scientific-structure/ppp

If you let the UN dominate Mars exploration and settlement, they will restrict it. This is in the interests of space agencies that are now way behind Space X in terms of a Mars capability.  They will back a restrictive approach to "planetary protection". But once they have the capability they will establish bases on Mars. Initially these may be like the Antarctic bases but I don't think it will be too long before people realise that Mars has huge capacity for settlement. 

I don't think it will take long before these "bases" become national settlements. We will see religious groups of various types - Baptists, Scientologists, Islamic groups etc want to get in on the action.

Before you know it, Mars will be replicating all of Earth's petty divisions and hatreds.

Last edited by louis (2018-12-11 11:46:37)


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#36 2018-12-11 07:59:40

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 904

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

Hi Louis,

Thanks for the clarification of your views on religion, and for expanding your explanation.  I had focused upon the word "secular" and overlooked your acknowledgement of the existence of religion. 

My intention is to come back to this topic at some point, because I think it will be helpful for you to extend and expand your thinking.

However, I would like to bring focus back to the topic of defined boundaries, which you have to this point refrained from setting.  I recall your point of view as being based upon human history, in which (apparently) most settlements arbitrarily defined by a camp site expanded over time into large tracts of land.

However, in recent centuries, that model has become less common.  Far more common is the model of the layout of Washington, D.C., which was supervised by a cadre of professional surveyors.

In the present time, the ancient undisciplined campsite model seems to me inappropriate, and fraught with seeds of conflict.

Please consider expanding the Sagan City boundaries to a circle 100 kilometers from the center you have already defined.

Please further consider defining a square for allocation of property inscribed within the circle, with East, West, North and South quadrants.

Finally, please consider reserving the chord regions for city property, to be used for parks, agriculture, power collection and for other community purposes.

If someone else in the forum has the ability to do so, please create an image that reflects this concept.

(th)

louis wrote:

2034 

The tenth anniversary of humans first landing on Mars! The date gets a lot of attention on Earth, where billions of people are fascinated by developments on our "cousin" planet. 
Religion: None. Mars regulatory approach is secular. There is a standing instruction that religious observance must be a matter of private observance. No Mars Development Corporation (MDC) facilities are made available for communal religious worship.

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#37 2018-12-11 16:33:59

kbd512
Moderator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 2,883

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

The person who doesn't want a particular religion being imposed on the rest of society wants to impose religious-affiliation quotas on how many students are permitted to attend a particular school run by a particular religious organization who happen to belong to some other particular religion or none at all, else they're not permitted to run their school.  I guess that makes sense to Louis.

Interestingly, here in America we have people who say they're secular science-believers (Democrats) who want to prevent minorities from sending their kids to those private schools, many of which are religious in nature, because they don't know what's best for their own children, whereas the man hiding behind the curtain does.  Oddly enough, many of those religious schools also out-perform our prestigious secular schools in standardized testing (not worth much in my opinion since so many of the kids still can't read / write / do math, but the Democrats think it is and the academics use it to determine who gets into college).

The notion that societal advancement only came about as a result of periods of time when one religious group dominated another is a provably and plainly false assertion that demonstrates a stunning level of ignorance about human history, whether we're talking about the last 50 or 5,000 years.  So much for science.

I'm no big fan of religion, mostly because of my own treatment at the hands of one of those organizations, yet even I wouldn't entertain the idea of using my old Catholic school as a social engineering experiment.  People are not ants.  You don't get to play with them in your little Mars petri dish to see what happens when you poke them over here and rattle them over there.  If nothing else, some of what I've read here indicates why we'll have the exact same problems on Mars that we have here.

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#38 2018-12-11 17:08:15

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,704

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

Yep, makes perfect sense to me.

Are you saying that you'd be happy with a billionaire Saudi prince sending in 10,000 settlers to Mars to operate Sharia law, along with beheadings, oppression of women, gays thrown off buildings, child marriage and all the rest?

kbd512 wrote:

The person who doesn't want a particular religion being imposed on the rest of society wants to impose religious-affiliation quotas on how many students are permitted to attend a particular school run by a particular religious organization who happen to belong to some other particular religion or none at all, else they're not permitted to run their school.  I guess that makes sense to Louis.

Interestingly, here in America we have people who say they're secular science-believers (Democrats) who want to prevent minorities from sending their kids to those private schools, many of which are religious in nature, because they don't know what's best for their own children, whereas the man hiding behind the curtain does.  Oddly enough, many of those religious schools also out-perform our prestigious secular schools in standardized testing (not worth much in my opinion since so many of the kids still can't read / write / do math, but the Democrats think it is and the academics use it to determine who gets into college).

The notion that societal advancement only came about as a result of periods of time when one religious group dominated another is a provably and plainly false assertion that demonstrates a stunning level of ignorance about human history, whether we're talking about the last 50 or 5,000 years.  So much for science.

I'm no big fan of religion, mostly because of my own treatment at the hands of one of those organizations, yet even I wouldn't entertain the idea of using my old Catholic school as a social engineering experiment.  People are not ants.  You don't get to play with them in your little Mars petri dish to see what happens when you poke them over here and rattle them over there.  If nothing else, some of what I've read here indicates why we'll have the exact same problems on Mars that we have here.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#39 2018-12-11 17:24:40

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,704

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

Well the issue of boundaries is an interesting one.

I haven't sorted out my thoughts on that entirely...

As a thought experiment I would like to ask do we actually need city boundaries and state or regional boundaries?

Here are some possible alternatives:

1.  The whole of Mars is viewed as one democratic entity. Is there really any need for separate city boundaries when the whole of the planet's population is counted in thousands or tens of thousands?

2.  Maybe with GPS tax distribution could be on the basis of the number of mobile phone pings per area?

3.  Maybe the Mars Development Corporation could be a single co-operative controlled by its members and its revenues would stand in for the tax base.  The MDC would operate urban services.

4.  What sorts of things do city administrations do?  - waste collection and management, education, police patrols, taxi and premises licensing... Maybe each of these could be provided on a global Mars basis.

5. Maybe individual residents would have vouchers to use to provide services.  As a resident you can allocate your vouchers to particular providers.  This would be on a non-geographical basis. But obviously, certain services would tend to dominate in a particular urban area.

6. Or maybe you choose a single "Public Services Provider" who then negotiates their provision in your area.

Another point, city boundaries can soon become irrational. That happened in London. I believe that's the case in Los Angeles, and some other American cities.

Just as we "know" where Los Angeles really is, so I think Mars planners will "know" where Sagan City is. They are expanding into empty land. No conflict issues.

tahanson43206 wrote:

Hi Louis,

Thanks for the clarification of your views on religion, and for expanding your explanation.  I had focused upon the word "secular" and overlooked your acknowledgement of the existence of religion. 

My intention is to come back to this topic at some point, because I think it will be helpful for you to extend and expand your thinking.

However, I would like to bring focus back to the topic of defined boundaries, which you have to this point refrained from setting.  I recall your point of view as being based upon human history, in which (apparently) most settlements arbitrarily defined by a camp site expanded over time into large tracts of land.

However, in recent centuries, that model has become less common.  Far more common is the model of the layout of Washington, D.C., which was supervised by a cadre of professional surveyors.

In the present time, the ancient undisciplined campsite model seems to me inappropriate, and fraught with seeds of conflict.

Please consider expanding the Sagan City boundaries to a circle 100 kilometers from the center you have already defined.

Please further consider defining a square for allocation of property inscribed within the circle, with East, West, North and South quadrants.

Finally, please consider reserving the chord regions for city property, to be used for parks, agriculture, power collection and for other community purposes.

If someone else in the forum has the ability to do so, please create an image that reflects this concept.

(th)

louis wrote:

2034 

The tenth anniversary of humans first landing on Mars! The date gets a lot of attention on Earth, where billions of people are fascinated by developments on our "cousin" planet. 
Religion: None. Mars regulatory approach is secular. There is a standing instruction that religious observance must be a matter of private observance. No Mars Development Corporation (MDC) facilities are made available for communal religious worship.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#40 2018-12-11 19:00:09

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 904

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

Hi Louis,

Thanks for taking up the boundaries issue, along with several other topics active in this series.

I am happy to see the discussion of how to deal with religion continuing.  In my opinion there is a way to go before the vision for Sagan City is satisfying or at least acceptable to the majority of potential residents. 

However, I would like to keep focus on boundaries for the city, because I have not yet succeeded in persuading you of the importance of defining them.

Closely related to the issue of boundaries is the larger issue of Rule of Law and its cousin, Property Rights, and the related issue of Free Enterprise.

It is entirely possible you have already assured your audience of your support of these fundamental concepts, and that I have just overlooked it.

Boundaries for Sagan City are essential for establishing at the outset that Property Rights are recognized by the Founder. 

At this point, it seems to me that you are (accidentally of course) encouraging a free-for-all in which the rich and powerful take everything they want when they want it.

No doubt I am misinterpreting your intention.

(th)

louis wrote:

Well the issue of boundaries is an interesting one.

I haven't sorted out my thoughts on that entirely...

As a thought experiment I would like to ask do we actually need city boundaries and state or regional boundaries?

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#41 2018-12-11 19:12:36

kbd512
Moderator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 2,883

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

Louis,

If my commentary in the political section of this forum is any indication, I'm not a fan of the militant factions of Islam nor the muslims who choose to act out practices that I consider barbaric in nature, such as the stuff you just mentioned.  However, I'm not about to impose my values on them lest they attempt to do the same to me.

There is a place in this world, and whatever worlds that follow, for the veritable slew of human valuation systems, however counter-productive some of them may be, at least until the people living under totalitarian governance principles finally become totally disgusted with such practices and overthrow the barbarians who live amongst them.  My take on this issue of religious practices is that it's not our job to control religion, except where it intersects with governance practices.  A church school doesn't qualify, unless it's teaching or advocating for things that are illegal under present laws.  I would never permit a religion that teaches its adherents that it's permissible to murder people who don't share such religious beliefs to have any school, for example, irrespective of the belief of the mix of pupils.  Maybe that's not common sense, but it should be.

If you would never condone nor allow such practices as discrimination based upon race, sex, religion, nor the slew of other things that are nobody else's business and certainly not the government's business, forced marriages, or murder for petty crimes, then I applaud your civility towards your fellow humans.  If you can't see my point about trying to impose your ideas about how many students at a religious school may practice a given religion, then my point is lost on you.

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#42 2018-12-11 19:37:11

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,806

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

The only place that we have been able multi cultural play in space together has been on the ISS and the moment that we are seperated by having there own respective place the space we will occupy with have the same issues as Earth has...

Use the ISS model or we are doomed when more do go to space....

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#43 2018-12-12 04:13:17

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,704

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

You're being naive. You are -  in a very American way - assuming that separation of religion and governance is a self-evident stating point. But that's not how most of the world sees things.  Either you have religions that believe they are the governance (e.g. Saudi Arabia, Iran) or you have governments that believe religions must be strictly controlled (e.g China, Russia), or you have a coming together of the two ideas (e.g. Pakistan, Egypt).

You have not made clear whether you are prepared to see tens of thousands of fanatical religious believers being shipped to Mars to set up theocratic states and overwhelm the planet. It sounds like you are.

If you don't stop it, it will happen, trust me. All religions feel they have a natural monopoly on the truth. The presence of humans on Mars without their religion being active and striving for dominance will appear to them as a kind of affront.

Personally I think we should work to stop that. Mars should be about importing the best from Earth, not the worst.


kbd512 wrote:

Louis,

If my commentary in the political section of this forum is any indication, I'm not a fan of the militant factions of Islam nor the muslims who choose to act out practices that I consider barbaric in nature, such as the stuff you just mentioned.  However, I'm not about to impose my values on them lest they attempt to do the same to me.

There is a place in this world, and whatever worlds that follow, for the veritable slew of human valuation systems, however counter-productive some of them may be, at least until the people living under totalitarian governance principles finally become totally disgusted with such practices and overthrow the barbarians who live amongst them.  My take on this issue of religious practices is that it's not our job to control religion, except where it intersects with governance practices.  A church school doesn't qualify, unless it's teaching or advocating for things that are illegal under present laws.  I would never permit a religion that teaches its adherents that it's permissible to murder people who don't share such religious beliefs to have any school, for example, irrespective of the belief of the mix of pupils.  Maybe that's not common sense, but it should be.

If you would never condone nor allow such practices as discrimination based upon race, sex, religion, nor the slew of other things that are nobody else's business and certainly not the government's business, forced marriages, or murder for petty crimes, then I applaud your civility towards your fellow humans.  If you can't see my point about trying to impose your ideas about how many students at a religious school may practice a given religion, then my point is lost on you.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#44 2018-12-12 04:55:16

Terraformer
Member
From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,061
Website

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

You're being naive.

Louis, you're the one who thinks human nature will fundamentally change if Mars has draconian enough immigration policies.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#45 2018-12-12 08:22:26

kbd512
Moderator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 2,883

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

Louis,

Perhaps I am being naive, but America was founded on freedom of religion rather than freedom from religion.  It's worked reasonably well for over two hundred years now, even with all of America's past and present problems.  As an atheist, I certainly don't feel that any particular religious group "controls me".  We agree that we should be sending our "best and brightest" to Mars, but we appear to disagree over what that means.  A high degree of technical skill and education matters, but all the superficial things that make us different don't.

If religions felt they had a natural monopoly on "the truth", then much of the scientific advancement wouldn't have happened.  But all that scientific progress did happen, even with the presence of very strong religious beliefs.  Many of the people who did the foundational work that made modern life possible also held very strong beliefs in god.  Nikola Tesla and James Clerk Maxwell, for example, were very devout believers in the concept of god.  At the same time, Charles Proteus Steinmetz and Thomas Alva Edison were agnostics.  All of them lived in what was arguably a Christian country, America, but they made modern life possible while much of the country believed in some form of Christianity.  Despite markedly different interpretations of divinity or lack thereof, all contributed mightily to the world we live in today.

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#46 2018-12-12 08:31:23

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 904

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

Louis,

This is a reminder that I've asked you to make another critical decision on behalf of your Sagan City concept.

Please squeeze in a moment, between your discussions of religion on Mars, to confirm my suggestion or make another that you find more pleasing.

tahanson43206 wrote:

Hi Louis,

I would like to bring focus back to the topic of defined boundaries, which you have to this point refrained from setting.  I recall your point of view as being based upon human history, in which (apparently) most settlements arbitrarily defined by a camp site expanded over time into large tracts of land.

Please consider expanding the Sagan City boundaries to a circle 100 kilometers from the center you have already defined.

Please further consider defining a square for allocation of property inscribed within the circle, with East, West, North and South quadrants.

Finally, please consider reserving the chord regions for city property, to be used for parks, agriculture, power collection and for other community purposes.

If someone else in the forum has the ability to do so, please create an image that reflects this concept.

(th)

(th)

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#47 2018-12-12 17:40:57

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,704

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

I did respond to your inquiry, TA, with a thought experiment about how there might be alternatives for geographically defined city administrations.

I've no particular problem with city boundaries but I guess I don't feel they quite work well with my overall vision, which is much more about the human culture that is being grown on Mars rather than power centres. For met that is the most important element in colonisation: get the culture right.

That said, I am sure that the MDC would draw some indicative boundaries just as  explorers have done in the past.  A 100 km radius seems a little grandiose, although on the other hand Mars cities will be very low density, covering a large area (because of rocket transport, safety considerations and large PV fields).  Maybe a 50 km radius "indicative" boundary from the original landing site would be appropriate for planning purposes. But I would make allowance for large craters...you would probably be looking to extend the city along the crater walls and the "valleys" between craters rather than going over crater walls.

I think from a safety point of view, Sagan City will be highly sectorised. With pressurised habs, gas storage, life support, air con and all the rest highly vulnerable to depressurisation, fire, explosion and microbial infection, you really need to ensure your centres of industrial production, raw material processing, waste storage and processing, propellant production, residential habs,  agrihabs and rockets give each other a very wide berth...

In the northern hemisphere you will naturally tend to set out your PV fields facing south, so if you have any gentle slop inclining to the north, they will make a good location for PV. As the settlement gets close to major craters, it will make sense to make use of the inclination of the crater walls.

What I call ELEs (Earth Like Environments) along with gyms (with pools) will I think be very important to people's mental and physical health on Mars. The most effective way to provide ELEs is through pressurising natural or artificial gorges and creating paths, rope walks and similiar criss crossing the gorge. I think you would want to ensure all Sagan City residents can access an ELE and a gym-pool easily as part of their daily routine. So I would say, no longer than a 15 minute journey to reach those.  I envisage Sagan City as generally involving discrete pressurised environments that you move between by pressurised robot rovers that you can order online (the rovers enter airlocks of course, so that humans do have to change out of ordinary clothing). There will likely be large rover "buses" for travel between main centres e.g. Spaceport, Old Area, Emporium shopping centre, MITE, New England University Centre and the Mars Sports Centre.  A 15 minute journey time in a robot rover travelling at an average of perhaps 15 kms per hour suggests that the ELE/gym complexes need to be about 7kms apart, maximum. The road trails for the robot rovers and robot buses (which might have more dedicated roadway e.g. basalt tiles) will - as with urban road systems - dictate much of the layout of the city. Broadly I envisage Sagan City following a quadrant kind of development with surrounding PV fields on higher ground to the North. As the city expands, so does the arc...so yes I am thinking generally residential city expands to the north while to the south we see the Spaceport area and associated warehousing.


tahanson43206 wrote:

Louis,

This is a reminder that I've asked you to make another critical decision on behalf of your Sagan City concept.

Please squeeze in a moment, between your discussions of religion on Mars, to confirm my suggestion or make another that you find more pleasing.

tahanson43206 wrote:

Hi Louis,

I would like to bring focus back to the topic of defined boundaries, which you have to this point refrained from setting.  I recall your point of view as being based upon human history, in which (apparently) most settlements arbitrarily defined by a camp site expanded over time into large tracts of land.

Please consider expanding the Sagan City boundaries to a circle 100 kilometers from the center you have already defined.

Please further consider defining a square for allocation of property inscribed within the circle, with East, West, North and South quadrants.

Finally, please consider reserving the chord regions for city property, to be used for parks, agriculture, power collection and for other community purposes.

If someone else in the forum has the ability to do so, please create an image that reflects this concept.

(th)

(th)


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#48 2018-12-13 08:45:47

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 904

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

Louis,

I have updated Post #21 to show the area and boundaries you have defined.

Please note that for simplicity of reference for future inquiries, I have selected the Viking I landing site as the center of the circle.

Please advise if this is not acceptable.

My objective is to remove ambiguity from decisions made to bring Sagan City into existence.

***
I'd like to move on to another focus .... now that you have chosen a site and a set of boundaries for the city, will you agree to allow others to develop concepts on the surface of Mars without interference from you?

You have reserved Pi * 100 Kilometers square kilometers for your proposed city.  That is an area large enough to hold millions of people in time.

If you accept my suggestion, you will accept that others can develop other areas on Mars without interference from you.

It is to be expected that the economic needs of the people of Sagan City will inspire others outside the City to supply those needs.

Examples are power, air and other gas supply, agricultural products, industrial support and transportation services.

I am picking up from your vision the impression that Sagan City itself would become a cultural center with living facilities attractive to visitors from elsewhere n Mars and from elsewhere in the Solar System.

If you agree to this proposal, you will free up opportunities for others to concentrate on the delivery of products and services needed by residents of the City itself.

Reminder: to reach Post #21 above, you can search for SearchTerm: and :SaganCityAttributesOf with Author tahanson43206


(th)

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#49 2018-12-13 18:01:08

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 15,806

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

The things that are not working in america's melting pot is when race, national, and color do not mix but settle next to larger and even larger groups of the same likeness. That is when we fail as a nation and you see this in some of murders, protests and other such garbage. Some of this is a hold over from the past that some can not let go of and others are brought with them from where they have come from without even trying to blend in.

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#50 2018-12-13 18:33:34

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 4,704

Re: A City Rises on the Plain...

Did you post this in the wrong thread, Spacenut?...American experience - very lax migration laws really -  doesn't seem particularly relevant to the discussion of Sagan City.

In terms of Mars, the way I see it, anyone coming to Mars would be subject to very detailed screening - more like applying for a job with the security services or the top of a mulitinational company for the foreseeable future!  Anyone moving Mars will be fully supportive of the Mars project.


SpaceNut wrote:

The things that are not working in america's melting pot is when race, national, and color do not mix but settle next to larger and even larger groups of the same likeness. That is when we fail as a nation and you see this in some of murders, protests and other such garbage. Some of this is a hold over from the past that some can not let go of and others are brought with them from where they have come from without even trying to blend in.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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