Election Meddling

Tom Kalbfus · 2017-01-14 09:18:39

GW Johnson wrote:

Tom:
You are way, way off the mark in every single one of your comments to my posting! What I see in you is an ideologue not capable of rational thought when it comes to politics. You often inject that ideological insanity into many of the other threads you visit on this forum, too.
You are excessively defensive of Trump, precisely because deep down somewhere, you know he is unfit, and it galls you when others call it to your attention. I’ve seen it many other Trump supporters, too. Myself, I didn't like either candidate for any of a variety of good, rational reasons. But of the two great evils, I thought Trump would be a little worse.

What you and the Media have done is make Trump into a monster he is not, you tried to make him more unacceptable than Hillary and it didn't work. Hillary was a particularly weak candidate, so the only thing she could do was bash Trump, the media was on her side and so they joined in on the fray, instead of reporting the news accurately as they were supposed to. So you basically lied to yourselves about Trump, you started believing those lies that Trump was Hitler and you got scared when he won! The last time something like this happened was the election of Abraham Lincoln, the Southern Democrats scared themselves by telling themselves that we was some sort of monster that would free their slaves and then those slaves would rise up and start killing white people just as they did during the Haitian Revolution in 1804. So do you propose a Civil War to prevent Trump from being President? We already had an election and he won, the only way to top him now is a violent revolution, of the sort the South advocated when they rejected the results of the 1860 election.

Trump has brought nothing but chaos ever since his campaign started. Before that, he caused chaos in the real estate market. People's past actions are the best predictor of their future actions. “Fairness” has absolutely nothing to do with that, and waiting for the inauguration to say that is totally irrelevant. I don't need to cut him or his cabinet selections "a break", as you put it, because their past behavior is a far better predictor of what they will do in those new jobs, more so than any stupid ideology or campaign "promises" (lies actually).

Trump is not ideological at all, he is willing to work with Democrats and has in the past with his various development projects, if only you would stop attacking him because he is not the person you would like to see as President. Sorry it was not Hillary's year, you can either be a sore loser or you can try to make the best of things. Advocating revolution and overthrow of the government is not going to get you anywhere. Trump isn't so bad, he's not Hitler, he's not even David Duke. Why don't you give him a chance to act as President and see what he does before you tear him down?

As for Russia, I was defending this country against the threat from Russia before you were born. I have NOT changed. But your erroneous perceptions have, and certainly not for more accuracy. I find your idiotic comment about me and Russia quite insulting.

So are all Russians evil, do you attack them on site? If someone in your presence starts speaking Russian, do you start throwing punches?
My uncle is part Russian, he has relatives in Russia, and I do not appreciate you scapegoating them. You know we've never actually fought a war with Russia!

The Great Recession was caused by many things, but the misbehavior of wall street investment banks driven by greed, and unfettered by any ethics or laws at all, was one of the major causes, if not THE major cause. Government had little to do with it, except not to enforce what regulations or laws that did exist, and that actually happened on the GOP's watch (“W” and a Republican House), because of their idiotic ideology, that in part calls for dismantling all regulations (which are rules for fair play, really).
Your “fact-challenged” (in plainspeak: “wrong”) statement that "government caused the Great Recession" reveals that, like Trump (and so many others), you value ideology over objective fact. I pity you, for you will never see the world as it truly is.
Unlike you, I have never been bankrupt. I managed my life better than that. Of that, I am proud. You, on the other hand, should be ashamed, because you quite evidently mismanaged yours, having gone bankrupt.
Like many other rich elites, for which the bankruptcy laws have been distorted to allow this, Trump used them to stiff people he owed money to, and walk away enriched, in addition to not paying his debts. Ordinary citizens don't get to do that, their debts get reduced, but the filer doesn't get enriched. So how is that "fair"? Knowing that Trump did that 6 times-of-public-record, and you could not, why do you defend him, and that unfair situation? Take off your ideology glasses and see the giant corporate welfare state for what it really is.
It is clear that Spacenut is a Hillary Clinton supporter. That’s OK. It is clear that I supported neither Clinton nor Trump, but that I voted against Trump as the slightly greater of two great evils that I perceived. That’s OK. It is clear that you are a Trump fan, and that’s OK.
The election is over, you no longer need to defend him so radically. He will either succeed or fail on his own. I merely predicted failure, based on his past behavior. And making that prediction is OK, in this thread. There is nothing about that for you to prove or disprove. Trump himself will determine the accuracy of my prediction. He needs no help from you to do that.
Now go away and come back when your vision is not so clouded by ideology.
GW

SpaceNut · 2017-01-18 22:30:13

With the number of entertainers which have dropped out and the few that are going to play I was surprised to see that Rock supergroup Audioslave reunites for anti-Trump show.

Audioslave on Wednesday announced its first concert in more than a decade as part of protests against Donald Trump's presidential inauguration. Audioslave -- fronted by Soundgarden's Chris Cornell with guitarist Tom Morello and other members of Rage Against the Machine -- will play the "Anti-Inaugural Ball" Friday in Los Angeles. The Anti-Inaugural Ball -- which will be livestreamed and raise funds for an anti-sexual assault group.
Prophets of Rage came together last year with political anthems amid the bitter presidential election, with the motto: "Dangerous times demand dangerous songs."

Will there be others that will do the same for the next 4 years? Only time will tell....and some very interesting music as well should it happen....

Tom Kalbfus · 2017-01-23 00:44:54

This is day three of the Trump Administration. The Trumps are just enjoying the weekend in the White House after moving in. I don't expect much to get accomplished in 3 days. The Dems are trying to delay the appointments of various heads of different appartments. I don't care about Trump's taxes, since I don't pay them. Since the Obama FBI didn't do much investigating of Obama and Hillary, I don't expect the Trump FBI to do much investigating of Trump. What I care about most is policy, not Trump's personal behavior, I care about things that affect me. Taxes, when somebody else pays them, are boring! I don't know who Trump is going to appoint for the head of NASA. If the Dems dig in their heels just to get back at Trump for winning the election, that can't be good!

GW Johnson · 2017-01-23 11:05:47

"If the Dems dig in their heels just to get back at Trump for winning the election, that can't be good!" -- Tom, what's good for the goose should be good for the gander.

For 6 years, a republican-dominated House refused to do anything but block all proposals coming from a democrat in the White House; refusing even to do their budget jobs in order to politically obstruct.

So why isn't a little turnabout fair play with the situation reversed, especially since the democrats control nothing?

GW

PS -- this notion floated over the weekend of "alternate facts" is utter bullshit. You are entitled to your own opinions. You are not entitled to your own facts.

No amount of lying by propaganda queen Conway can distract me (or any other person who values fact) from the truth of aerial photography. Trump is as fact-challenged in his claims about record-setting crowds at his inauguration as he has been in most of his speeches and all of his tweets. Which have been quite near 100% wrong since his campaign started. I see no changes in his behavior or his lies since being sworn in.

As a result I recommend: listen not to anything he or his staff say. Watch only what they actually do. He and his staff are as bad as, or worse than, any lying politicians I have ever seen. And I've seen a lot of them over the last 6 decades.

And don't call me a democrat or a liberal. I am not either. Nor am I a republican or a conservative. I am independent. The ideologies of both parties are really bad public policy, because both are based on belief systems, not facts. But since the sharp rightward shift of the "Reagan Revolution", the republicans have been more egregiously evil about it. As I often have said: extremism is evil, whether in politics or religion. Both ultimately lead to the same violent bloody repression. As they always have, all through recorded history.

BTW, Reagan himself would be labeled a RINO by his own party, if any of them looked at facts not belief systems. He started out as a labor organizer and a member of the democratic party. Changed later. RINO Trump also started out as a democrat.

Last edited by GW Johnson (2017-01-23 11:23:47)

SpaceNut · 2017-01-23 20:41:40

Tom Kalbfus wrote:

I don't care about Trump's taxes, since I don't pay them.

Actually a budget counts on the monies to be paid into it via taxation to which he has not been paying along with many others and when they are not the government takes out loans to cover which means the taxes paid in are incremented to pay on this new level of debt, so you are in directly paying each year that these taxes are not paid incurred via a higher tax table for your income.....

The FBI head favors a trump presidency so he will drag his heels in so as to not do any digging as its in his favors best interest not to change the tables....
Investigation underway into contacts between Flynn and Russian ambassador The U.S. investigators have been looking into at least one phone call -- in late December -- between Flynn and Russia’s ambassador to the United States, Sergey Kislyak. Flynn is not the only Trump associate being scrutinized.

Here is the other group that he has ostracized Sources say Trump's CIA visit made relations with intel community worse They say the first three rows in front of the president were largely made up of supporters of Mr. Trump’s campaign. An official with knowledge of the make-up of the crowd says that there were about 40 people of those in attendance..

The executive orders for the day; one withdraws the U.S. from the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP), another reinstates the Mexico City Policy dealing with non-governmental organizations (NGOs) and abortion access, and a third freezes federal workforce hiring. The Federal hiring freeze of which the military was exempted from the hiring freeze.

What was so bad in the TPP according to Trump is an enormous trade deal that send jobs oversea.... But in actuality it aligned the U.S. and 11 nations in the Asia-Pacific region including Japan, Australia, Vietnam, Canada and Mexico under an agreement that would have eliminated thousands of tariffs and streamlined regulations which would have stopped the product dumping for prices under that to which we can make it for....

The other days ACA orders are on the back track as GOP senators offer ACA replacement plan that would let states keep Obamacare

He says that he is for the poeple then why did I not here a peep out of him for the Deep South reeling after deadly tornadoes sweep through

Tom Kalbfus · 2017-01-23 23:48:30

GW Johnson wrote:

"If the Dems dig in their heels just to get back at Trump for winning the election, that can't be good!" -- Tom, what's good for the goose should be good for the gander.

Are you willing to wreck the United States of America just to make Trump look bad and be a one-term President to satisfy your partisanship? That is called being a Democrat first and an American second!

For 6 years, a republican-dominated House refused to do anything but block all proposals coming from a democrat in the White House; refusing even to do their budget jobs in order to politically obstruct.
So why isn't a little turnabout fair play with the situation reversed, especially since the democrats control nothing?
GW

That won't get any new Democrats elected. The Democratic Party will just wither and die if they are only seen as wreckers. The seeds for the replacement party lie within the Republican Party. Trump's politics are closer to FDR's than anything the Democratic Party currently offers. Trump is the Moderate Left, Ted Cruz is the right wing of the Republican Party. Without competition from the deceased Democratic Party, the Republican Party will eventually split in two and form two new parties.

PS -- this notion floated over the weekend of "alternate facts" is utter bullshit. You are entitled to your own opinions. You are not entitled to your own facts.

That is a polite way of saying CNN was spreading lies!

No amount of lying by propaganda queen Conway can distract me (or any other person who values fact) from the truth of aerial photography. Trump is as fact-challenged in his claims about record-setting crowds at his inauguration as he has been in most of his speeches and all of his tweets. Which have been quite near 100% wrong since his campaign started. I see no changes in his behavior or his lies since being sworn in.

And this is important because?

As a result I recommend: listen not to anything he or his staff say. Watch only what they actually do. He and his staff are as bad as, or worse than, any lying politicians I have ever seen. And I've seen a lot of them over the last 6 decades..
And don't call me a democrat or a liberal. I am not either. Nor am I a republican or a conservative. I am independent.

Well you talk like a Democrat, a true independent wouldn't prejudge Trump the way you have, or care about the Democrats getting back at Trump because they lost the election. A true independent would care only about the country and not about which party or politicians are in power, but you seem to care Bet you wouldn't if Trump ran as a Democrat, you would probably ignore any of his indiscretions such as hi locker room talk in 2006 as well. My problem with CNN is they seem more interesting in participating in the political process than in reporting on it!

The ideologies of both parties are really bad public policy, because both are based on belief systems, not facts. But since the sharp rightward shift of the "Reagan Revolution", the republicans have been more egregiously evil about it. As I often have said: extremism is evil, whether in politics or religion. Both ultimately lead to the same violent bloody repression. As they always have, all through recorded history.

Did you like the Soviets? Jimmy Carter was a loser who blamed Americans for his inability to defend the United States.

BTW, Reagan himself would be labeled a RINO by his own party, if any of them looked at facts not belief systems. He started out as a labor organizer and a member of the democratic party. Changed later. RINO Trump also started out as a democrat.

You know smart people learn and change their opinions as evidence comes in.

Tom Kalbfus · 2017-01-24 00:01:50

SpaceNut wrote:

Tom Kalbfus wrote:
I don't care about Trump's taxes, since I don't pay them.
Actually a budget counts on the monies to be paid into it via taxation to which he has not been paying along with many others and when they are not the government takes out loans to cover which means the taxes paid in are incremented to pay on this new level of debt, so you are in directly paying each year that these taxes are not paid incurred via a higher tax table for your income.....

The amount Trump paid or did not pay is an infinitesimal amount compared to the size of the US economy. Right now, how he performs as President is more important to me than whatever amount of taxes he paid in the past. I want the United States to succeed, to defeat terrorism, and to grow its economy, and this petty nit picking doesn't accomplish that goal. We won't have another Presidential election for another four years, until that happens, Trump either succeed and America succeeds or both fail!

The FBI head favors a trump presidency so he will drag his heels in so as to not do any digging as its in his favors best interest not to change the tables....
Investigation underway into contacts between Flynn and Russian ambassador The U.S. investigators have been looking into at least one phone call -- in late December -- between Flynn and Russia’s ambassador to the United States, Sergey Kislyak. Flynn is not the only Trump associate being scrutinized.

Do you really want a coup or an impeachment before Trump has actually ever done anything as President?

Here is the other group that he has ostracized Sources say Trump's CIA visit made relations with intel community worse They say the first three rows in front of the president were largely made up of supporters of Mr. Trump’s campaign. An official with knowledge of the make-up of the crowd says that there were about 40 people of those in attendance..

The CIA was doing what Obama wanted because he was President, now Trump is President, so they will follow his orders. It doesn't really matter anymore. "Shoulda, coulda, woulda", its Monday morning quarterbacking

The executive orders for the day; one withdraws the U.S. from the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP), another reinstates the Mexico City Policy dealing with non-governmental organizations (NGOs) and abortion access, and a third freezes federal workforce hiring. The Federal hiring freeze of which the military was exempted from the hiring freeze.
What was so bad in the TPP according to Trump is an enormous trade deal that send jobs oversea.... But in actuality it aligned the U.S. and 11 nations in the Asia-Pacific region including Japan, Australia, Vietnam, Canada and Mexico under an agreement that would have eliminated thousands of tariffs and streamlined regulations which would have stopped the product dumping for prices under that to which we can make it for....
The other days ACA orders are on the back track as GOP senators offer ACA replacement plan that would let states keep Obamacare
He says that he is for the poeple then why did I not here a peep out of him for the Deep South reeling after deadly tornadoes sweep through

GW Johnson · 2017-01-24 11:37:25

If you look at the way Tom errs taking apart the posts of others (not just mine), three things become clear: (1) he sees everything through an extremely-distorted lens of extremist politics, (2) he starts typing before he even finishes reading, much less understanding, what he was reading, and (3) he is extremely defensive of Trump because deep down somewhere he knows the man is unfit to be president.

I know Trump is unfit. Bob Gates agrees, and also said so in public. So do many others.

But Trump was a candidate of Tom's favorite party, the GOP that was taken-over hostilely by the tea party/far-right wing extremists long before Trump ever started his run for office. He feels compelled to defend Trump, and win the argument, at any cost. The compulsion comes from the deep-down knowledge that the man is unfit.

I see similar unwarranted defenses of Trump from quite a few folks that I know to be tea partiers, not just Tom. Perhaps that is why I still see political "hit pieces" being circulated on the internet by tea party groups, even though the election is over and they won. Overcompensation for shortcomings really reeks, don't it?

Actually, I hope the man succeeds as president. So does Bob Gates, I heard him say so to Charlie Rose on PBS last night. We don't need any failures in the White House, given the threats we face from Russia, Iran, China, and North Korea. The general class of Islamic terrorist organizations, as serious as they are, actually pales in comparison to the long term threats posed the other 4 I listed. This is a really bad time to have a beginner learning the ropes in the White House.

But Trump, unlike most we have seen in the last half century, has an awful lot to learn about being president. That job is not a reality show, "ratings" are irrelevant. That job is not being "king", he will be heavily constrained in what he can do by the constitution, and he clearly doesn't understand that. As president, you must weigh evidence and advice before you decide; Trump has zero history of doing that. And he needs to govern for the benefit of all the people, not just his base of political support; in not understanding that, he is not alone. Too many in Congress have the same problem, and it has been causing chaos and gridlock, stuff we don't need.

I see a mix in the people Trump has nominated. Some look like they they could do a decent job. Others look like political appointees that could not correctly do the jobs they will hold if God himself came down from Heaven to advise them. He will have to do far better than this to succeed.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2017-01-24 11:46:18)

SpaceNut · 2017-01-24 19:31:59

Here is the back story to one of those executive orders and its concequences... Abortion Could Be Outlawed in 33 States if Roe v Wade Overturned: Report

"More than 37 million women in 33 states are at risk of living in a state where abortion could become illegal," the group said.

where_the_right_to_an_abortion_states_chart_95f574ea3c77c1c67e87d86a3d848a66.nbcnews-ux-600-480.png

Beyond the risk it now places on woman there is now all those jobs in a medical field that will be lost.. Some jobs creation program.....

Here is a slap in the face to those that have lost love ones in fighting for our nations combat arena's... White House gov web site deletes military family support page from official site and has moved it to https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/joiningforces this has to do with Guard and Reserve Family Support Services

Now here is Trump's cahnce to create jobs... Senate Democrats Propose $1 Trillion Infrastructure Plan

Trump often touted the need to repair the country's infrastructure on the campaign trail and has continued to since the election, mentioning it in his inaugural address last week when he pledged to "build new roads and highways and bridges and airports and tunnels and railways all across our wonderful nation."
The Democrats' plan is wide-ranging, including $210 billion for roads and bridges, $180 billion for rail and bus programs and $110 billion for sewer and water. Another $10 billion would go for VA refurbishing and $75 billion for school infrastructure.

Remember the Republicans faught tooth and nail when Obama created these type of working for american efforts to fix bridges that were Red lined....
So here's your chance....

Tom Kalbfus · 2017-01-24 20:56:46

GW Johnson wrote:

If you look at the way Tom errs taking apart the posts of others (not just mine), three things become clear: (1) he sees everything through an extremely-distorted lens of extremist politics, (2) he starts typing before he even finishes reading, much less understanding, what he was reading, and (3) he is extremely defensive of Trump because deep down somewhere he knows the man is unfit to be president.

I go point by point, commenting after I read each paragraph, I didn't feel the last four paragraphs you wrote was worth commenting on, so I didn't. What's wrong with that?

I know Trump is unfit. Bob Gates agrees, and also said so in public. So do many others.

That is only one man's opinion, considering that his opposition had the Democratic Party rigged in her favor, Bernie Sanders didn't stand a chance with those superdelegates, and Trump didn't require superdelegates to win his party's nomination, I would have to say Donald Trump was more qualified than her!

But Trump was a candidate of Tom's favorite party,

I love my country, the Democrats haven't shown much love for their country lately, they have shown a love of power. Obama has shown a love for America's Enemies such as Fidel Castro, the Iranians, ISIS, and Vladimir Putin! The Democrats only flipped on Putin when they said he rigged the election in Trump's favor, and there is no evidence for that. the Democrats did nothing to stop Putin when he invaded Ukraine or Georgia, the Democrats didn't mind Putin then! So please tell me how hacking in the DNC accounts is worse that Russia's invasion of Ukraine!

the GOP that was taken-over hostilely by the tea party/far-right wing extremists long before Trump ever started his run for office. He feels compelled to defend Trump, and win the argument, at any cost. The compulsion comes from the deep-down knowledge that the man is unfit.

That is far from the truth, I wish I were true, but it is not! if the Tea Party had taken over the Republican Party Ted Cruz would now be President instead of Donald Trump!

I see similar unwarranted defenses of Trump from quite a few folks that I know to be tea partiers, not just Tom. Perhaps that is why I still see political "hit pieces" being circulated on the internet by tea party groups, even though the election is over and they won. Overcompensation for shortcomings really reeks, don't it?

I think it is very warranted because Trump has just started, it is the 4th full day of his Presidency, an a lot of you were criticizing him before he as even sworn in. Maybe you should wait until we see some results of his policies before you prejudge him!

Actually, I hope the man succeeds as president.

Attacking him just as he's sworn in as President is hardly the way to do it! I think its a perfectly reasonable position to insist you wait a bit until he actually has a chance to do something as President. I think you are being very unfair!

So does Bob Gates, I heard him say so to Charlie Rose on PBS last night. We don't need any failures in the White House, given the threats we face from Russia, Iran, China, and North Korea.

We don't need to face threats from Russia. Russia hasn't threatened the United States, and you don't really care that he invaded Ukraine! you didn't care when we talked about it earlier in the year.

The general class of Islamic terrorist organizations, as serious as they are, actually pales in comparison to the long term threats posed the other 4 I listed. This is a really bad time to have a beginner learning the ropes in the White House.
But Trump, unlike most we have seen in the last half century, has an awful lot to learn about being president.

Well it seems Obama didn't learn a thing while he was President, he kept on making the same mistakes over and over again. Trump has only had 4 days compared to Obama's 8 years, what do you expect?

That job is not a reality show, "ratings" are irrelevant.

Well then, how come you brought up crowd size during his inauguration?

That job is not being "king",

Is that a strawman argument? Haven't seen Trump wearing any crowns on his head!

he will be heavily constrained in what he can do by the constitution,

Was Obama?

and he clearly doesn't understand that. As president, you must weigh evidence and advice before you decide;

Just like you have? Trump has had 4 days as President, what's your experience?

Trump has zero history of doing that. And he needs to govern for the benefit of all the people, not just his base of political support; in not understanding that, he is not alone. Too many in Congress have the same problem, and it has been causing chaos and gridlock, stuff we don't need.

Well obviously you are using your own "facts" and coming to your own conclusions.

I see a mix in the people Trump has nominated. Some look like they they could do a decent job. Others look like political appointees that could not correctly do the jobs they will hold if God himself came down from Heaven to advise them. He will have to do far better than this to succeed.
GW

I don't care what they look like, so long as they do a good job, and only time will tell, not how they look like.

Tom Kalbfus · 2017-01-24 21:05:55

SpaceNut wrote:

Here is the back story to one of those executive orders and its concequences... Abortion Could Be Outlawed in 33 States if Roe v Wade Overturned: Report
"More than 37 million women in 33 states are at risk of living in a state where abortion could become illegal," the group said.
http://media1.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2 … 00-480.png

Most Americans don't live in those blue states. In the at risk states, you are insisting that a minority that wants an abortion overrule the majority of citizens in her state, maybe she should just pack up her things get into a car and do road trip to somewhere that she can legally have an abortion, is that so hard? Even criminals get due process before they are executed! So why shouldn't woman have time to think about it while driving to a state where it is legal before she does something as irreversible as kill her baby?

Beyond the risk it now places on woman there is now all those jobs in a medical field that will be lost.. Some jobs creation program.....

Oh I feel so sad for those Abortionists who can't find a job. What about the poor executioner who can't find work in a state where the Death Penalty is illegal?

Here is a slap in the face to those that have lost love ones in fighting for our nations combat arena's... White House gov web site deletes military family support page from official site and has moved it to https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/joiningforces this has to do with Guard and Reserve Family Support Services

Now here is Trump's cahnce to create jobs... Senate Democrats Propose $1 Trillion Infrastructure Plan
Trump often touted the need to repair the country's infrastructure on the campaign trail and has continued to since the election, mentioning it in his inaugural address last week when he pledged to "build new roads and highways and bridges and airports and tunnels and railways all across our wonderful nation."
The Democrats' plan is wide-ranging, including $210 billion for roads and bridges, $180 billion for rail and bus programs and $110 billion for sewer and water. Another $10 billion would go for VA refurbishing and $75 billion for school infrastructure.
Remember the Republicans faught tooth and nail when Obama created these type of working for american efforts to fix bridges that were Red lined....
So here's your chance....

roads can pay for themselves with tolls, more so if privately operated!

Tom Kalbfus · 2017-01-25 08:32:57

Terraformer wrote:

The simple truth is, Donald Trump is one of the safest President's America has had in a long while.
Is his domestic and economic policy lacking? Certainly. No worse than the President's immediately preceding him, but I suspect he'll largely continue the same bad policies of drug war, spying on the population, security theater, massive government spending, building infrastructure that's not needed... no pluses there, but no worse than the alternative.
Cultural policy? Doesn't have one. He's not a culture war President. Which is a very good thing. I don't think he's interested that much in how you wish to live, or how you think others should live.
Foreign policy? Much better. He's anti-interventionist, and doesn't try to stoke tensions with Russia.
Is he the best? No, I would have much preferred a Paul-Amash ticket. Is he better than the alternative? Much better.

He did freeze government hiring, and he wants to cut government spending by 20%. He appears to be serious. There is no reason why he wouldn't want to cut spending, he has one reelection coming up as President, and then his career in politics is over, what's he going to do afterwards, run for mayor? He'll be 78 years old! Trump will let his children continue to run his businesses and he'll retire, that way he'll avoid the large inheritance tax he'll pay when he dies, assuming he hasn't eliminated that while he was President. Unlike Obama, Trump doesn't hate America, he doesn't have friends who are Marxists, Domestic Terrorists, or Preachers who curse out America in their sermons.

Tom Kalbfus · 2017-01-25 12:27:24

GW Johnson wrote:

Tom:
Well, you're so wrong about so many things. A sampling:
We all had Trump's entire campaign during which to spot the general uninformed unfitness, and the chronic lying, and the insecurity about being criticized. "Fair" has nothing to do with it, it is just a simple matter of observing public behavior.

Ted Cruz was more honest, but Trump knew that in order to make changes, you have to win, and he observed that the Democrats lied and still won a lot of elections, particularly the one where Obama beat Mitt Romney, who Trump backed at the time. Trump probably saw Ted Cruz as a well meaning candidate, but he figured he had to use strategy in order to win, the honest truth teller dint stand a chance without some embellishments and exaggeration to make one's point, and Trump was in the end more honest than Hillary, who told some real obvious lies. If you are complaining about who wins, you should blame the voter. There are a lot of stupid voters out there that fall for this, you can like it or not, but they still vote, so what are you going to do? Stand in principle and lose or do what is necessary and win? Trump was of the opinion that he had to win first. Now that he's won, we are going to see what he's actually going to do, an for tht, only 5 days has elapsed, usually its traditional to give an incoming President 100 days before you start criticizing him on his accomplishments.

As I said (and you ignored), I hope he does succeed. But he has an awful lot to learn and an awful lot of character flaws to address, to be successful. So I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for him to succeed. He will do us a lot of damage while he learns. If he learns.

I'm sorry "Peter Perfect" didn't win, but he probably didn't stand a chance of being nominated in the first place, because he was too honest, and the voters get what they deserve in he end.

As for the "tea party" extremists, that movement really was the Reagan Revolution that got Reagan elected. They just didn't call it "tea party" back then. Same right-wing extremists that allied with the religious extremists to get out their vote too. Some of the originals were the KKK-types who left the democratic party in the years right after the 1965 civil rights act. Before that, they were "southern conservative democrats".

Tell me, why would Klu Klux Klan members join the party of Lincoln? It was the party of Lincoln that defeated them in the first place, not only during the Civil War, but the majority of legislators who voted for the Civil Rights Act were Republicans, not Democrats!

When Bill Clinton won, the leaders of this right-wing extremist bunch holed up and developed a new strategy of obstructionism (prioritizing party advantage above the duties of the jobs they swore to do). They still didn't use the name "tea party", but it's the same bunch. The ringleaders who turned the right-shifted GOP into the "party of no" were Newt Gingrich, Eric Cantor, Paul Ryan, and a couple of other names I no longer remember after so many years. But it was Gingrich that forced a government shutdown during those years.

And because of their "Obstructionism, we had a robust economy, taxes stayed low, and the deficit went into surplus. As you know, "no" costs a lot less than "yes!"

This was also about the time right-wing extremist talk radio became so popular with the extremist conservative voter crowd. It inflamed the "base" to be even more extremist, which is how Eric Cantor got "tea partied" in his primary, still long before the name "tea party" was used.

Since the Left took over the mainstream media, many conservatives turned to talk radio and Rush Limbaugh became quite popular with people sick and tired of the Media's Left Wing bias.

It's only in the last decade or so that the name "tea party" sprung up from the grass roots, and the most of the extremist right wing of the GOP adopted it, and has been steadily purging out all mainstream republicans who will not adopt extremist positions.

And what did Samuel Adams and his buddies do?

There, that's the history of the GOP for the last 40 years. I could tell an equally sordid tale about the democrats, but I won't, to save space. As I said, I am an independent (something you also chose to ignore). I don't like either one of them.
It's history like that which proves beyond any shadow of a doubt that party agendas (from either side!!) make really bad public policy.

Lucky thing then that Trump is not partisan. He's quite willing to work with Democrats, if only they would stop attacking and insulting him unfairly! Its been only 5 days, I think I am being quite reasonable in insisting that you lay off and give him a chance. If you criticize him now, you will weaken your arguments in the future when you may have some legitimate criticisms. All you are doing now by criticizing him is showing your prejudice against anyone who ran and won as a Republican. For Trump the Republican Party was a party of convenience, he has not made his career out of politics, politics is just his hobby! He's going to do what he ran for President to do, and when he' done, he's going to leave the White House and never turn back. This Presidency thing is just a one time stint, a feather in his cap to top off his career in Business and real estate. I don't think he plans to do anything in particular after the Presidency, he certainly isn't going to be looking for a job, he doesn't need anything from anyone, he is doing this for his country!

The obstructionism has to go. The extremism has to go. This is the same bullshit that brought the Nazis, the Bolsheviks, and the Fascists to power.

Calling him a "Nazi" just undermines your argument, if you want to be taken seriously, don't throw around words like "Nazi!" You are nly helping out the real Nazis if you do! If you call a bunch of people who aren't Nazis, "Nazis" you increase the chances of a eal Nazi someday getting elected! If you don't want an extremist to get elected, then stop using extremist language against your opponents! I think I am being reasonable and logical in saying this.

Personally, in my opinion, breaking oaths of office to prioritize party advantage over doing the duties of said office should be treated as treason. It meets the definition under the "aid and comfort to the enemy" clause, and there are certainly millions of witnesses in an age of mass media. We'd certainly have a lot of offices to re-fill, if we were to do that.
GW

Well Trump took his oath of office five days ago, how has he broken it? I say you are being quite unfair to him and you are showingyour prejudice. Prejudice is a word than not only applys to racial discrimination by the way, it means to pre-judge, it is a way to say you are being unfair and judging people before the facts come in. Trump has won the election. The only way to judge him as a President is to give him time to be President, and you have not done that!

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2017-01-25 12:27:58)

SpaceNut · 2017-01-25 20:09:00

I have begun to view Trumps executive orders as that of the new military recruit that needs breaking down in order to mold and build you up.

Executive orders for the day:

Trump Announces Executive Order for 'Immediate Construction of a Border Wall
Trump Expected to Sign Order to Fund Border Wall: Administration Official

So get ready to pay for that wall.....

Trump Signs Executive Orders Aimed at Cracking Down on Illegal Immigration

This is something that has been on the books so he really has not done anything new....just build jail cells for them...

The executive actions include redirecting existing Homeland Security money to erect what the administration described as a "very large" wall on the southern border with Mexico, a signature campaign promise. Additional detention facilities would also be built along the border, according to the action.

With even being legal you still can Feel Like I’m Under Siege’: Reaction To Trump’s Immigration Orders

This is what walls do to families.. try one if you like to be kept from the love ones of your....
170104-immigration-dreamers-mn-1100_d4bad85c72c25b770b152099abb67478.nbcnews-ux-600-480.jpg

Here is the facts about doing away with Border Expert: Discarding NAFTA Will Cost Jobs in Michigan, 138,000 jobs in Michigan depend on direct trade with Mexico and Elsewhere even more jobs will be lost in the US.

Trump has gone off the deep end of the pool and Why Trump Should Have Been Taken Both Literally AND Seriously

There's the Muslim ban -- or something very close to it. "U.S. President Donald Trump is expected to sign executive orders starting on Wednesday that include a temporary ban on most refugees and a suspension of visas for citizens of Syria and six other Middle Eastern and African countries, say congressional aides and immigration experts briefed on the matter,

Here is some of that backlash due to not wanting them in as Iraqis fighting ISIS alongside U.S. troops criticize new ban on entering U.S.

Gen. Ali Al Lami said he has lost many men, but he’s disappointed that President Trump might make it near impossible for his soldiers to start a new life in the U.S.
“If America bans Muslims, it’s not the right thing to do,” he said. “America is a multi-ethnic and religious nation, a country of freedom.”

He still claim of massive voter fraud in the 2016 election, yet the Electorals were still counted that had not registered and now we have Trump cabinet nominee Steven Mnuchin is also registered to vote in two states wow what a great example of fraud....

Gee just how multi state votes from voters were cast in this election...
Tiffany Trump Is Currently Registered to Vote in Two States

Then there is his continued ethics issues.... Contractor Says Trump Refusing to Pay for Work at DC Hotel

What's next for Women's March participants

Now backlash from the gag orders
Scientists planning their own march in Washington

SpaceNut · 2017-01-25 22:14:52

Congress moves ahead with Russian election-hacking probes

Tom Kalbfus · 2017-01-26 07:20:34

SpaceNut wrote:

Congress moves ahead with Russian election-hacking probes

Sure why not, and while they are doing that, they can see if those illegal aliens voted in California. I wonder who had more of an impact on the election, Russian hackers or illegal aliens? I bet it was the illegal aliens!

SpaceNut · 2017-01-26 19:44:18

Tom Kalbfus you list not one free air broadcast systems channel for public viewing and that is the difference between censorship when you can not afford to do nothing else... Going digital caused a filtering of information to the masses that do not have internet, satelite or cable coming into there home....The new free air broadcast channels on digital are less strong with signal propagation than even the old analog UHF had so not as many views occur for the stations that still do broadcast....The PBS is also with no commercial advertisement so no funding system other than from donors and special fund raising events.

Now is California the only state containing illegals? I do not think so...

Trump has signed a dozen executive orders in his first few days in office, past eight years, Republicans skewered President Obama as an "emperor" who acted outside of his "legal authority" for the executive orders he issued from the Oval Office.

Which sounds to me that it being done by the Republicans and that its ok now....

Donald Trump’s First Six Days in Office: Here’s What He’s Done

Begin to open up your wallet as McConnell, Ryan Say Congress Will Pay for Trump's estimate will cost $12 billion to $15 billion Border Wall not Mexico.....

White House Floats 20 Percent Tax on Mexican Imports to Pay for Border Wall: White House Spokesman

New Trump Agency Memo Gags Staff Communications, Democrats Say in memo -- dated Jan. 20 -- circulating at the Department of Health and Human Services

The Trump administration is circulating a memo ordering federal employees not to communicate with Congress, a demand that Democrats are calling an illegal gag order.
“The Trump administration has issued restrictions at multiple agencies on employee communications, including, in some instances, communications with Congress,” Rep. Elijah Cummings, D-Md., wrote in a letter Wednesday to new White House counsel Donald F. McGahn II. “These directives appear to violate a host of federal laws.”
Cummings’ letter cited a memo -- dated Jan. 20 -- circulating at the Department of Health and Human Services from Acting Secretary Norris Cochran the acting secretary that tells agency division heads that “no correspondence to public officials (e.g., members of Congress, governors) ... unless specifically authorized by me or my designee, shall be sent between now and Feb. 3.”

Trump strategist Stephen Bannon tells media to "keep its mouth shut" the media is the “opposition party” of the new administration and “should be embarrassed and humiliated” by the unanticipated election result.

Trump to Sign Executive Order Related to Voter Fraud, White House Says You have people that are registered who are dead, who are illegals, who are in two states. You have people registered in two states

DOJ Delay in Texas Voter ID Case Sparks Concern Amid Trump’s Debunked Fraud Claims
Justice Department lawyers challenging Texas' voter ID law asked a federal appeals court to delay a hearing in the case. The hearing had been scheduled to consider whether the law intended to discriminate against racial minorities, or whether it merely did so incidentally.

Civil Liberties Groups to Donald Trump: ‘See You in Court’

Madeleine Albright says she's "ready to register as Muslim in #solidarity" Trump promised to enforce “extreme vetting” and suspend immigration from certain Muslim countries, Trump is “obviously mentally ill

Tom Kalbfus · 2017-01-27 01:00:57

GW Johnson wrote:

I see no point to continuing to participate in this argument. The difference between belief and reality is so vast for Tom, like it is for Trump (and the tea party), that there is no common ground to converse here.
There was no vast fraudulent voting. The Russians swayed opinions with fake news, but did not mess with vote tallies (although they could have). There is no such thing as trickle-down economics (that has been known for millennia, political belief systems that say otherwise are lies). Torture really is illegal under international law. Pipelines and resource recovery are fine, but making messes while doing them is not. Clean air and clean water really do make a difference: compare Beijing today with LA and NYC today, so censoring government agencies involved with the environment to keep their dismantling secret from the public is a great evil. Building another Great Wall of China on the Rio Grande makes absolutely no sense (there is no expensive wall that cannot be defeated by cheap ladders and shovels, you can ask the Chinese), while reforming the work permit process actually does make sense.
Facts actually do matter.
GW

How many Americans rely on RT news to get all their information about what's going on? Do you really believe there is a significant percentage of the American People that use the Russians as their sole news source? If all the Russians wanted to do was lie, then there was no need for hacking. Hacking implies they uncovered the truth, truth that apparently you would prefer remain covered. So you wanted Clinton's secrets to remain secret so she could get elected, and you blame the Russians for exposing the truth, in other words you want to shoot the messenger!

SpaceNut · 2017-01-27 20:41:12

The unlawful removal of constitutional rights under free speech by Republican lawmakers as several central U.S. states are pushing bills that would crack down on demonstrations, drawing criticism from free speech campaigners and underlining the polarization over protests in North Dakota, Indiana and Iowa that would impose measures such as harsher penalties for demonstrators who disrupt traffic, and scrapping punishment for drivers who unintentionally strike protesters blocking their vehicles. The push for stricter laws comes as opponents of Trump have vowed to take to the streets to demonstrate against his policies on issues ranging from immigration to abortion and climate change. Then again the Trump's wall could cost an estimated $120 per US household is probably lower that what I think it will cost you......

Now on to the arrest of Russian Charged With Treason Worked in Office Linked to Election Hacking Moscow are prosecuting at least one cybersecurity expert for treason, a prominent Russian criminal defense lawyer confirmed on Friday. Russian internal investigation led to two other arrests, and that all of the detentions were related to American investigations into Russian hacking during the election.

RobertDyck · 2017-01-27 21:39:08

The Hill: 'Calexit' supporters can start work to make ballot

Californians who want their state to secede from the United States can now start collecting signatures to put the initiative on the 2018 ballot.
The Yes California Independence Campaign has been around for at least two years, but the election of President Trump only saw increased momentum for the so-called Calexit cause. Trump lost California by more than 4 million votes, fueling interest in a Calexit — a play on the United Kingdom's "Brexit" campaign that saw that country's voters decide to leave the European Union.
The California secretary of state’s office announced that the group could begin collecting signatures on Thursday.
The group needs 585,407 signatures from registered voters over the next 180 days to qualify for the ballot.
If the 2018 ballot initiative passes, it would force a 2019 statewide special election asking voters if they want California to become an independent country.
Supporters first proposed a ballot measure to the state attorney general’s office in November.
According to a summary prepared by the state attorney general, if the measure got onto the ballot and passed, it would repeal clauses in the California Constitution stating that the state is an "inseparable part of the United States" and that the U.S. Constitution is the "supreme law of the land," the Los Angeles Times reported.
It's not clear whether a California secession would be handled by the federal government, even if the state's voters approved it.

SpaceNut · 2017-01-28 20:26:34

Here is how the union was created from the original colonies until we achieved 50 states...

How Secession from the Union can occur currently...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._state

The admission in that Russia has arrested the hackers for our election should also send a wake up call that not only was the president distorted but also the views for candidate republican's as well were also set in motion by these same hackers.

The agent that leaked the report on Trumps involvement is also an issue as he has been found dead from a drug induced heart attack....

Not all favor the executive orders on imagrants as GOP senators sound off on Trump refugee order

GOP lawmakers are stepping out against President Trump’s executive order barring many refugees and citizens of certain predominantly Muslim countries from entering the U.S.
Sen. Jeff Flake Jeff FlakeGOP senators sound off on Trump refugee order Anti-Devos calls jam Senate phone lines This week: Congressional Republicans prepare to huddle with Trump MORE (R-Ariz.) called the order "unacceptable" amid concerns that it would prevent legal permanent residents from entering the U.S., which the administration attempted to clarify on Saturday.

Federal judge blocks Trump immigration order: report
I also hear that 2 lawsuits have been launched as well due to the executive order....

Words matter for what is said, typed ect in any form and here are the words which are not on twitter or on open mic's....
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-roo … ive-orders
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-roo … -memoranda
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-roo … clamations

Why does all of this matter is even his own party is asking them selves that question...Why Trump’s executive orders worry some conservatives

SpaceNut · 2017-01-30 19:01:01

One judge has weighed in on the executive order and now here is another Justice Dept. will not defend executive order on travel restrictions

Yates' decision came amid a flood of protests against the executive order nationwide and after four federal judges ruled against Trump's order, staying its impact on people who were detained at US airports over the weekend.

Donald Trump had said unsubstantiated claim that the election was marred by 3 million illegal votes well here is a another that is registered in multiple states.... Trump's voter fraud expert registered in 3 states
Gregg Phillips, was listed on the rolls in Alabama, Texas and Mississippi, according to voting records and election officials in those states.

Donald Trump’s Latest Argument For His Immigration ‘Ban’ Is Bunk

Nice tweet not...

If the “ban,” as Trump called it, took effect a week after he signed it, potential terrorists would receive advance notice and thus infiltrate the country via its refugee resettlement or tourist visa programs.

More alternative Facts...

People abroad can’t just “rush” into the U.S. The screening process for refugees takes 18 to 24 months, on average. The process for obtaining other types of visas also takes weeks at the very least.

Not a yes man but one whom has is own mind McCain, Again the Maverick, Challenges Trump

Gearing up for Impeachment Senate Democrats Call For Investigation Into Trump Officials’ Failure To Obey Court Orders

As much as 9/11 hurt we should also never forget Remembering Executive Order 9066, the 'Single Act' that Began Internment

RobertDyck · 2017-01-31 12:02:03

No. The Liberals under Jean Chrétien and Paul Martin cut spending, eliminated the deficit, reduced the debt, reduced taxes. They were elected October 1993, Jean Chrétien was sworn-in first working day of January 1994. Paul Martin was his finance minister. Then Paul Martin became Prime Minister in December 2003, voted out January 2006.

Conservative Stephen Harper dramatically increased spending, threw us back into deficit, increased the debt back to its all-time high then continued to run deficits after that. Stephen Harper cancelled the last personal tax cut announced by the Liberals, than brought it back a year later and tried to claim credit. We didn't get another personal tax cut until the current Liberals were elected. Stephen Harper and his conservatives cut corporate taxes. Today income tax for multi-billion dollar corporations is equal to the lowest personal tax bracket, so individuals living below the poverty line pay the same tax rate. Small business with less than half a million dollars taxable income pays only 11% corporate income tax, which is less than individuals below the poverty line. That's insane!

I could understand you don't like Hillary. When Bill Clinton was president, I thought Hillary would make a better president. However, both Clintons had deliberately tried to re-start the cold war by trying to convince Russia's allies to abandon Russia. They stirred up trouble but cutting Russia's economy by cutting off their trading partners. And she actually proposed a "no-fly zone" over Syria. That would have meant American fighter jets shooting down Russian fighter jets, owned by the Russian air force and operated by Russian pilots. That could easily have escalated to WW3!

Tom, the civil war was over a century ago. Wikipedia says it ended 1865. Get over it! It's long overdue to end tensions between blacks and whites. And Obama signed a presidential decree to entirely close the prison at Guantanamo Bay. Good! Unfortunately some Republican judge overruled him.

Obama eviscerated the Defence Budget? Bull shit! The military and national security budget in year 2000 was $288 billion. That includes DoD and nuclear weapons, which is part of the Department of Energy. George W. ballooned it up to $799 billion for 2009. The budget was 2009 was passed in 2008, so the last budget approved by Dubya. However, Obama's first budget was for 2010, military and national security was $901 billion! What! That's backwards! We expected Obama to cut military spending, end the war in Iraq in his first 100 days, and end the war in Afghanistan before the Congressional mid-term elections of 2010. He failed.

During the last election I tried to encourage my American friends to either vote for Gary Johnson or Jill Stein. If you want a woman just because she's a woman, ignoring what she stands for, then vote Jill Stein. If you want someone who believes in liberty and Libertarian values, vote Gary Johnson. Gary was a former Republican governor.

But you tried to claim all mosques produce terrorists. That's bull shit! There are more trouble-makers among Trump supporters than American citizens who practice the Muslim faith. So a public school that produces Trump supporters is more dangerous than a mosque.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2017-02-03 16:58:19)

SpaceNut · 2017-02-04 22:00:38

Did you all know that your tax dollars for the candidacy of Trump did not go into ads or other such means to connect with the voters but rather it went into his pockets of the business that he owns under his own direct use as payments to his business.
The confict of interest for this will continue through to his next chance for re-election as he has registered already to be a candidate.

New documents show Trump retains direct tie to businesses Trump is the sole beneficiary of the Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust....

More corporate shell games and all he needs to say with each visit to what he owns is I am going to my constiuents for the future candacy run, or I am on government business...charge it to the government payable to Donald Trump....

So are emails leaked better or worse than the White House Trump calls to Australia, Mexico into how embarrassing details of recent tense phone conversations with these counterpart...phone call with Australian Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull after an acrimonious discussion about a refugee swap deal, a conversation that threatened ties between the two allies after details appeared in The Washington Post or that an earlier call with Mexican President Enrique Pena Nieto about paying for a wall on the southern U.S. border, Trump said he might send the U.S. military to Mexico to stop drug cartels - details from a transcript obtained by a Mexican news organization Aristegui Noticias and the Associated Press.

By the way this is where we have fencing and do not....

Tom Kalbfus · 2017-02-04 23:40:51

SpaceNut wrote:

Did you all know that your tax dollars for the candidacy of Trump did not go into ads or other such means to connect with the voters but rather it went into his pockets of the business that he owns under his own direct use as payments to his business.
The confict of interest for this will continue through to his next chance for re-election as he has registered already to be a candidate.
New documents show Trump retains direct tie to businesses Trump is the sole beneficiary of the Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust....
More corporate shell games and all he needs to say with each visit to what he owns is I am going to my constiuents for the future candacy run, or I am on government business...charge it to the government payable to Donald Trump....
So are emails leaked better or worse than the White House Trump calls to Australia, Mexico into how embarrassing details of recent tense phone conversations with these counterpart...phone call with Australian Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull after an acrimonious discussion about a refugee swap deal, a conversation that threatened ties between the two allies after details appeared in The Washington Post or that an earlier call with Mexican President Enrique Pena Nieto about paying for a wall on the southern U.S. border, Trump said he might send the U.S. military to Mexico to stop drug cartels - details from a transcript obtained by a Mexican news organization Aristegui Noticias and the Associated Press.
By the way this is where we have fencing and do not....
https://a-stamen.graphiq.com/terrain/5/6/13.png

You fail to mention that it was Obama's deal to swap Central American immigrants and send them to Mexico in exchange for Australia sending us their radical Muslim immigrants, that the do not want, from Indonesia so they can come here and kill Americans! You left that part out. Obama is upset that we are protected by two oceans, which many Muslims cannot afford to cross. Islam is an Old World religion, the religion of the New World is mostly Christianity, there is not a single Muslim country here! Obama wants to pay for their tickets to come here, he sees them killing Europeans by bombs, guns and running them over with trucks, and he thinks America is missing all that fun!

You know I first learned about Muslims at the time of the Iranian Hostage Crisis in 1979?

The Mexican government by the way denies that Trump threatened to invade Mexico, that was misreported! We are receiving a lot of false reports by an unhappy and angry Media that is upset that the election didn't go their way, they thought they had smoothed a path for Hillary Clinton the White House, and they are very upset that it didn't happen, so now they are lying through their teeth. By the way, whats it going to do to our Mars aspirations when you are busy alienating the one person who could be a big help in getting a humans to Mars program going? Has Obama ever shown any interest in doing that? Do you want o wait 4 years and do your darnedest to get Trump impeached and removed from office, and then hope that whoever replaces him is someone who is pro-space and a Democrat? Do you want to see people on Mars or are you just going to fight Trump tooth and nail for the next four years? You need to realize the Media is nursing a grudge and is not doing its job in truthfully reporting news about Trump! They want to control who becomes the next President and they feel they los that power to the American People.

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2017-02-04 23:49:06)

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