New Mars Forums

Official discussion forum of The Mars Society and MarsNews.com

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Announcement: We've recently made changes to our user database and have removed inactive and spam users. If you can not login, please re-register.

#51 2016-11-25 09:55:46

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Election Meddling

Why is that not the same with NATO? Canada is a NATO country. Some of those countries you talk about have a larger population than Canada, including Poland, Germany, and the United Kingdom. My cousin on time said she would move to Canada if Trump got elected, I was wondering why not move to Poland instead? If Hillary got elected instead of Trump, I could probably move to Poland easier than Canada since my wife is Polish, the only down side is I don't speak Polish, not enough of it to hold a conversation anyway. On the Map Canada takes up half a continent and is larger than Poland, but population wise, Poland is larger than Canada, it has about 40 million people. Like Canada, Poland has a parliamentary system of government, but unlike Canada, it also has a President, and Canada on average has a colder climate than Poland. But in any case Trump won, and if Trump really was the Fascist many liberals were claiming during the election, Canada would not be nearly far enough. If Trump was Hitler, then Canada would be our "Austria", but I don't think Trump is Hitler.

Offline

#52 2016-11-25 20:45:21

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,235

Re: Election Meddling

Now this is all to funny In bizarre ‘birther’ twist, claims Trump is Pakistani

Birther Boomerang: Report Claims Trump Was Born In Pakistan, Ineligible To Be POTUS

Bizarre birther theory suggests Donald Trump was born in PAKISTAN before he was adopted and taken to America when his parents died in a car accident

Trump's Birther Place

There are those out there that will believe almost anything.....this is funny......Now do we request a DNA test....

Now on the not so funny when Trump was saying he could walk down a NY street and shot someone and still become president getting away with it.
Trump's Victory Has Fearful Minorities Buying Up Guns
Well he seems to have gotten his wish that everyone should be allowed to have a gun.....

Now on the recount Election Recount to Begin in Wisconsin Following Green Party Petition, Officials Say

Green Party Candidate Jill Stein Files for Vote Recount in Wisconsin

However, reports of irregularities in the vote count — brought to light by a collection of scientists and activists — along with concerns over whether Russia may have attempted to influence the results and Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton's historic and growing popular vote victory, have provided the momentum and emotion behind this admittedly long-shot fight to force a recount.

Further funding will be redirected to Michigan, where the filing cost will be $600,000 and the challenge deadline is Monday, and Pennsylvania, where the filing cost is $500,000 and the deadline is Wednesday.

Hacker demonstrates how voting machines can be compromised

Here’s A Rundown of Election Fraud in the 2016 Presidential Race So Far

Offline

#53 2016-11-25 22:15:11

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Election Meddling

SpaceNut wrote:

Now this is all to funny In bizarre ‘birther’ twist, claims Trump is Pakistani

Birther Boomerang: Report Claims Trump Was Born In Pakistan, Ineligible To Be POTUS

Bizarre birther theory suggests Donald Trump was born in PAKISTAN before he was adopted and taken to America when his parents died in a car accident

Trump's Birther Place

There are those out there that will believe almost anything.....this is funny......Now do we request a DNA test....

Now on the not so funny when Trump was saying he could walk down a NY street and shot someone and still become president getting away with it.

Donald Trump was joking and using hyperbole, he does that a lot. Trump is not a politician, he doesn't conduct himself as if every newspaper it going to measure every word he says with a microscope and take him literally and seriously about everything he says every minute of the day. He was kidding. Are you prepared to account for every word you have ever said every minute of your life? The problem with politicians today is they are so careful with what they say and how it may be interpreted by the press, that they are not themselves. Everyone who tells a joke and exaggerates is not Hitler.

Trump's Victory Has Fearful Minorities Buying Up Guns
Well he seems to have gotten his wish that everyone should be allowed to have a gun.....

Trump actually got more minorities to vote for him than Mitt Romney.

Now on the recount Election Recount to Begin in Wisconsin Following Green Party Petition, Officials Say

Green Party Candidate Jill Stein Files for Vote Recount in Wisconsin

However, reports of irregularities in the vote count — brought to light by a collection of scientists and activists — along with concerns over whether Russia may have attempted to influence the results and Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton's historic and growing popular vote victory, have provided the momentum and emotion behind this admittedly long-shot fight to force a recount.

Further funding will be redirected to Michigan, where the filing cost will be $600,000 and the challenge deadline is Monday, and Pennsylvania, where the filing cost is $500,000 and the deadline is Wednesday.

If there are irregularities in the count, it is most likely by the Democrats, Trump doesn't have the machine politics of the Clinton/Democrat machine. There probably were some irregularities, such as illegal aliens who shouldn't be voting, dead people under who's registration someone else was voting and so forth, in spite of that, there were enough actual votes to overcome that and give Trump the electoral majority, and he might even have the popular vote majority if we were to illuminate all the illegal votes.

Mostly on the Democrat side. Trump has spend fewer resources on his campaign than Hillary Clinton, his focus was on the message, he did a bunch of rallies to get his message out, and they were well attended. Hillary needed to help of musicians and celebrities to draw crowds, they mostly didn't come to see her. Hillary had to focus on the ground game of getting out the votes of party stalwarts, her message was mostly negative about what a racist/fascist/Nazi Donald Trump was, and how dangerous it would be if he ever were to become President, and the only choice to prevent this "Potential Future Hitler" from coming to power and starting the "Fourth Reich" was to vote for Hillary. This character the Hillary Campaign was trying to paint Trump as bears little resemblance to the host of Celebrity Apprentice, and is not consistent with that of a billionaire who married a foreigner twice, has a Jewish Daughter and Son-in-law, has hired a lot of minorities in all his businesses, this is not a "Hitler!" I didn't like Hillary's attempt to distort and smear Donald Trump, but a negative campaign was all she could run and it didn't work. The country is better off jus letting Trump be President and be given four years to prove himself, or to let the Democrats make a case against him based on his record as President so they can try again in 2020. That is what a democracy is all about.

Offline

#55 2016-11-28 19:43:15

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,235

Re: Election Meddling

On another note the dominoes are starting to fall as Republican elector chooses to resign rather than vote for Trump

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politic … -1.2890153

“If Trump is not qualified and my role, both morally and historically, as an elected official is to vote my conscience, then I can not and will not vote for Donald Trump for President,” the Texas Republican said in a blog post.

"I believe voting for Trump would bring dishonor to God.”

Wisconsin Officials Pledge Quick Recount; Lawsuit Filed in Pennsylvania

More racial Trump caused voter actions... Supporters Rally Around Michaels Employee After Customer's Tirade Goes Viral

David Petraeus shared classified info. Now can he be secretary of state? Serious issue indeed...

It's a record that raises questions about his ability to get a security clearance and to be confirmed -- particularly as the GOP painted Hillary Clinton as unfit for the presidency for her own handling of classified material.

Offline

#56 2016-11-28 23:18:45

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Election Meddling

SpaceNut wrote:

On another note the dominoes are starting to fall as Republican elector chooses to resign rather than vote for Trump

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politic … -1.2890153

“If Trump is not qualified and my role, both morally and historically, as an elected official is to vote my conscience, then I can not and will not vote for Donald Trump for President,” the Texas Republican said in a blog post.

"I believe voting for Trump would bring dishonor to God.”

Wisconsin Officials Pledge Quick Recount; Lawsuit Filed in Pennsylvania

More racial Trump caused voter actions... Supporters Rally Around Michaels Employee After Customer's Tirade Goes Viral

David Petraeus shared classified info. Now can he be secretary of state? Serious issue indeed...

It's a record that raises questions about his ability to get a security clearance and to be confirmed -- particularly as the GOP painted Hillary Clinton as unfit for the presidency for her own handling of classified material.

Then why did he choose to be a Republican Elector for Trump? Did he plan on doing this all along in case Trump got elected? Doesn't sound honest to represent yourself as a Trump elector and then don't vote for Trump if he is elected. I mean what did Trump do anyway? He didn't do anything, he hasn't been President yet. The elector flipping is dishonest stuff, and it is by the way an undemocratic thing to do. Winning an election by hook or by crook is not worth it, it destabilizes our country and is not in our interests! The worst that will happen is then Congress gets to decide, the elector would have taken this election away from the people, and for no good reason! the reason we have electors is in case of such events as the candidate dying for instance after the election but before the electors cast their votes, those electors are then free to choose their own candidate, it isn't the purpose of electors to give the losing party targets to threaten or bribe in order to flip their votes! And its not worth it to elect a criminal undemocratically in place of Trump, at this point the Military might as well step in with a coup and rule the country themselves at this point. I'd rather not have these shenanigans. Hillary lost, she is not charismatic, she is not well liked or trusted by the people.

Offline

#57 2016-11-30 20:58:03

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,235

Re: Election Meddling

Offline

#58 2016-12-01 00:03:00

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Election Meddling

He hasn't done anything yet. I don't think it is fair to criticize someone's job performance as President before he is President.

Offline

#59 2016-12-01 10:42:28

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 4,032
Website

Re: Election Meddling

"He hasn't done anything yet. I don't think it is fair to criticize someone's job performance as President before he is President." 

-- actually,  yes he has.  He has chosen as his closest advisors mostly people who want to do the things Trump promised us he would not do, during the campaign. 

Which puts him at near-100% verifiable lies.  Worse actually than Clinton with her verifiable 50% lies. 

Either of them would be disastrous as president,  but I think he will be the worst of the two.

GW


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

Offline

#60 2016-12-01 11:40:55

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 3,588

Re: Election Meddling

SpaceNut,

You're providing links to the Clinton News Network about what Donald Trump is actually up to?

I'm underwhelmed by their opinions, which is all they have to offer since they decided to start peddling propaganda like MSNBC and Fox.

I wish I could watch something more substantive than liberal temper tantrums about losing the election, but that's all the major networks carry these days.  All I want is for someone to ask questions and obtain information.  I'll decide what I should make of it.

Offline

#61 2016-12-01 18:14:24

Antius
Member
From: Cumbria, UK
Registered: 2007-05-22
Posts: 1,003

Re: Election Meddling

GW Johnson wrote:

"He hasn't done anything yet. I don't think it is fair to criticize someone's job performance as President before he is President." 

-- actually,  yes he has.  He has chosen as his closest advisors mostly people who want to do the things Trump promised us he would not do, during the campaign. 

Which puts him at near-100% verifiable lies.  Worse actually than Clinton with her verifiable 50% lies. 

Either of them would be disastrous as president,  but I think he will be the worst of the two.

GW

We will have to wait and see.  Most of the things Trump is criticized for I don't care about.  He is accused of being a misogynist.  Why should I care about some daft comments he made about groping women?  It doesn't effect me and it is unlikely to effect anybody.

I do not care about 'minorities'.  America is a white European civilisation and its character and history are a function of the unique people that made it.  The reality is that ethnicity matters.  It divides people very effectively.  And beyond certain limits, fundamentally different people will never be able to form a common nation with common goals.  If race didn't matter, there wouldn't be a black-lives-matter movement, there would never have been such violent conflict in Northern Ireland.  There wouldn't be white, asian or black 'communities' if this didn't matter.  Clearly these differences are more important than just about anything else when it comes to forming a nation.   More than anything else our genetic inheritance determines who we basically are.  The more 'ethnically diverse' a place is, the more divided it is.  It becomes more and more difficult to identify with the people around you.  Very different ethnic groups will never form a common nation without outside oppression and coersion, for the same reason that red and grey squirrels don't get together.  Whether we individually like that or not is irrelevant.  It is the reality of the world around us and it is in effect human evolution in action.

I don't condemn Trump for failing to reassure people that the emperor really is wearing clothes.  There is no glory in defending a fantasy, especially if that fantasy is getting closer to blowing up in your face with every passing year.  A multicultural society is one of those things that depends upon people not asking too many difficult questions.  That's why liberals get so outraged when they suspect someone somewhere hasn't bought into their nonsense.  They know it would never stand up to serious scrutiny.  Which is precisely why they feel so threatened when people ask 'difficult' questions.  Their world view is unscientific.  An honest examination of human history and social psychology would blow it to pieces.  The bottom line is, I do not believe in racial equality, at least not in the way it is interpreted by the socialite internationalist new-left elites that control the US and European governments and media.  And I don't blame him for not believing in it.  There is nothing morally wrong about not believing or upholding something that isn't true.

Some of Trumps policies I do disagree with.  His stance on global warming is unscientific.  The reality of global warming is not a political question.  The right answer is not a function of political persuasion, anymore than gravity is a function of political persuasion.  What you do about the problem is one thing, but the truth does not change just because we decide that we dont want to believe in it.  His stance towards Russia and Eastern Europe could actually cause WW3 if he weakens European defences in a way that allows more Russian incursions.  That said, I do agree that Europeans should be paying more towards their own defence.  Why shouod they expect the Americans to pick up their tab?  His energy policy could use more attention.  The US could cut greenhouse emissions quite affordably through a nuclear renaissance.  It could do quite well out of it if they beat the rest of the world in the development of a super-safe and economic Gen 4 nuclear system.

But I will wait and see.  I feel more positive about Trump than any other US president since Ronald Reagan, even though he has some imperfections.  He has a patriotic attitude that I admire and I think he his presidency has the potential to be a turning point for the Western world.  It could be the point where we throw off toxic liberal fantasies and recognise them for the myths that they really are.  An era in which we set forth into space and leave behind the dark age that we have been living in.

Last edited by Antius (2016-12-01 19:47:54)

Offline

#62 2016-12-03 00:09:42

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,235

Re: Election Meddling

Maine GOP Gov. LePage Claims Non-Citizens Could Have Voted. He is telling state legislators he'll rubber-stamp their election certifications despite his concerns about the accuracy of the state's official results. Maine's election isn't in question and he hasn't received complaints regarding the integrity of it. This echo's Trumps claim that they cast there votes for Hillary and that he won the popular vote due to this action.....

Along with the previous races that are part of the swing states that are being recounted there could be some other states that will be doing recounts for the same voter fraud that Trump has claimed....

Trump promised the Carrier to be able to keep there business here in the states and touted his new deal to keep at least 1,000 U.S. jobs. Yet workers at another of the company's Indiana plants said they are still losing their jobs. With Sarah Palin Saying Trump's Carrier Deal Could Be 'Crony Capitalism' "When government steps in arbitrarily with individual subsidies, favoring one business over others, it sets inconsistent, unfair, illogical precedent," and not to meantion a conflict of interest if he does indeed own stock in the company....

The next Trump's pick for Defense Marine General James Mattis, has been Accused of Delaying Aid to Wounded Soldiers by A former Army Special Forces officer and his actions, which were not formally investigated at the time, are now likely to get far more scrutiny during the retired general's Senate confirmation process.

Offline

#63 2016-12-05 09:06:05

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Election Meddling

Antius wrote:
Tom Kalbfus wrote:

Where is Hillary Clinton now? Where is Obama now? At least Petraeus did not give the Russians nuclear weapons! Who are more our enemies, the Russians or the Iranians? I think we can make a deal with the Russians, we just have to make sure they pay a price for whatever land they take, and we tell them where to take the land from! If Turkey misbehaves, we could give the Russians a call, say, "Hey, would you like some land?" This threat will keep Turkey from going on any Jihads against the West. We could arm Ukraine with nuclear weapons, and if Russia complains, we just tell them, "If you don't want Ukraine to have nuclear weapons, just give back the land, or pay Ukraine for the land you took! That is all! he agreement was that you respect Ukraine's borders in return for Ukraine giving up its nuclear weapons. You did not respect Ukraine's borders, so therefore there is a price to pay! Now you can give back the land and we can forget about nuking up Ukraine, how about it?"

Tom,

If this allegation against Petraeus is true, then it raises serious concerns about the judgement of the president elect.

Compared to Hillary Clinton? If you question Trump's Judgment, then why don't you see if you can get into the hotel and resort business and do a better job than he is. Do you think also that you can swim faster than Michael Phelps? Lets see you try!

In my opinion Trump has some admirable qualities, he is a nationalist that wishes to restore his country to greatness and he is not part of the den of traitors and thieves that have plagued the western world for as long as I can remember.  But he is also politically inexperienced.

That is why he won the election.

A lot of what he has to say (about global warming for example) make him sound downright naïve.

Do you know what a tautology is? Something that is assumed to be true, Trump is making no such assumption, and also it got him elected. Trump is not going to abandon his base, when it got him elected! The choices are:
1) We can take drastic action now with our imperfect knowledge and technology or
2) We can do something better later when our technology improves or
3) Maybe we don't need to do anything because there isn't really a problem.
A lot of the scientists who push global warming are Democrats, and they have the Media on their side, and te Media just did everything in their power to prevent Donald Trump from getting elected, but he got elected anyway, so Trump is not too friendly with them right now.

There is a light-year of difference between a nationalist and an imperialist.

 
When was the last time we had an imperialist as president? was it?
Thomas_Jefferson_by_Rembrandt_Peale%2C_1800.jpg
Thomas Jefferson?
andrew_jackson.jpg
Andrew Jackson?
James_Monroe_02%20by%20Hubbard.jpg
James Monroe?
Major-General-Ulysses-S.-Grant.jpg
or how about Ulysses S Grant?
Where would our country be without these people?
There people made our country bigger.

A nationalist makes hard hearted decisions that ultimately serve a greater good and understands that good fences make good neighbours.  A true nationalist respects the right of others to do the same.  An imperialist is a different beast entirely.  He may show nationalist tendencies, but ultimately he lacks any interest in the good of humanity.  He does what he does without compassion or understanding and looks upon the possessions of others as resources that he can exploit, he doesn't care about the consequences for the people that live there.  I suspect Trump is a nationalist, Putin is an Imperialist.  A lot of people don't understand the difference between the two philosophies, that one is good, the other is evil.  I suspect that Trump may not understand either and that would be exceptionally dangerous when dealing with Russia.

Achieving better relations with the Russians is a laudable goal and one that I hope we achieve.  But any sort of capitulation to these people, any weakening or perceived weakening of defences in Eastern Europe, risks starting WW3.  An imperialist would see it as permission to take.  When dealing with Putin, you need an iron fist in a silk glove.

What you do is give Putin a range of options, if he wants a piece of Ukraine, give him a price he can pay to have it, make it clear to him, his country is going to pay a price no matter what it is, and include among those possible options giving back the land he stole

Offline

#64 2016-12-05 11:42:16

Antius
Member
From: Cumbria, UK
Registered: 2007-05-22
Posts: 1,003

Re: Election Meddling

We are past the point where it matters how good Trump looks compared to Hillary.  Before the election, keeping Hillary out of power was one of Trump's biggest saving graces.  For all his faults, at least he wasn't her.  She lost the election and whatever she might have done is an irrelevance to all but a few dusty political historians.  She is about as important to us now as Michael Dukakis was in 1989.  In a few years she will be forgotten.

Now, we cannot excuse any problems there may be with Trump just because there could have been a bigger turd in the Whitehouse.  What he does after 20th January matters enormously, peoples lives will be made or broken by his decisions and a lot of people could die if he makes the wrong decisions.  It may be that the concerns I raised are unjustified and he has a cunning masterplan.  I hope so.  How he deals with Russia will define how his presidency is remembered and whether half the people reading this site are still alive in 10 years time.

You talk about 'giving' Putin a piece of Ukraine.  Does nothing about that not sound eerily familiar to you?  78 years ago a British prime minister brokered just such a deal with a German imperialist.  It is remembered as the 1938 Appeasement.  We all know what happened just 1 year later.

Last edited by Antius (2016-12-05 11:55:25)

Offline

#65 2016-12-06 21:10:04

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,235

Re: Election Meddling

The number of "faithless electors"  are still on the increase as GOP Elector Pens Op-Ed Announcing Plan to Buck Trump
Colorado electors file lawsuit to block Trump for presidency Two electors filed the federal lawsuit on Tuesday

Mismatched numbers means Mich. precincts can't be recounted

The computerized poll book in Rochester Hills precinct 11 listed the names of 848 voters who cast ballots there, but the ballot box contained just 847 ballots. So where is the other ballot? The poll workers' notes offered no explanation. But it isn't just an issue in Oakland, the same problem is appearing in precincts in several counties. The problems raise questions about the overall accuracy of Michigan's vote. "These are the kinds of issues discovered during a recount that can then be fixed in future elections.”

Remember that deal ‘He got up there and lied his a– **** off': Carrier union leader on Trump’s big deal

Offline

#66 2016-12-06 23:56:09

IanM
Moderator
From: Chicago
Registered: 2015-12-14
Posts: 276

Re: Election Meddling

Faithless electors are a bad thing in that they throw an unnecessary wrench into the works, especially in such a polarizing election as this, and Donald Trump being Donald Trump doesn't make them any less a bad thing. I completely agree with Wayne Williams and John Kasich on this issue. One could certainly argue that it's undemocratic to have the Electoral College Vote not line up with the popular vote, but it'd be even less democratic to have electors not even beholden to their state citizen's votes.

29 states have laws against faithless electors, and those states warrant 136 electoral votes for Trump and 145 for Clinton. These laws aren't generally enforced, but if they alter the outcome Trump would almost certainly sue given his character, and the entire case would be brought before the Supreme Court. Laws against faithless electors are admittedly of dubious constitutionality that's never been tested given the rarity and usual insignificance of the phenomenon, but electoral pledges can be constitutionally required, so one could argue that following on these pledges can also be constitutionally required.


In any case the numbers don't seem to add up:
-34 faithless electors would be needed to alter the election result, and 38 to swing it to Clinton outright. The historical average is 2.75 per election, and the all-time high is 23, in 1836, when all of Virginia's delegation abstained from voting for the running mate that year because of his relationship with a slave girl.

-I'm getting the impression that these faithless electors aren't going to vote for Clinton, but rather another Republican such as McMullin or Kasich.

-If neither candidate gets the magic 270 by some electoral lightning-strike the matter moves on to the House of Representatives, which is controlled by Republicans (and which, unlike the Senate, doesn't have a filibuster, thus pretty much rendering the Democrats powerless here), who wouldn't in their right minds vote for Clinton. All other Republican potential candidates would probably concede on behalf of Trump like Kasich has de facto, thus sealing the House vote for him.

So basically, barring the absolutely catastrophic, Donald John Trump will be inaugurated as President of the United States on January 20th, and even with the catastrophic, it would be another Republican.


The Earth is the cradle of the mind, but one cannot live in a cradle forever. -Paraphrased from Tsiolkovsky

Offline

#67 2016-12-09 18:29:56

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,235

Re: Election Meddling

It appears that there is more to Trumps words as President Obama Orders 'Full Review' of Any Hacking Related to 2016 Election

Just weeks before the Nov. 8 election, U.S. intelligence agencies accused the Russian government of hacking intended to influence U.S. political institutions and elections. The White House said the review, which the president requested earlier this week, will date back to 2008.  In 2008, both Obama's and John McCain's presidential campaigns were reportedly the subject of hacking by the Chinese. The president hopes to make as much of the report public as possible, but it will need to be reviewed for sensitive or classified information, Schultz said.

So is there more truth to this Hackers Target Election Systems in 20 States

The "attempted intrusions" targeted online systems like registration databases, and not the actual voting or tabulation machines that will be used on Election Day and are not tied to the Internet. Only two successful breaches have been disclosed, both of online voter registration databases, in Illinois and Arizona over the summer.

State     Electoral votes     Percent In     Clinton     Trump
Arizona             11                    80%                  45.4%     49.5%
Illinois             20                    97%                  55.4%     39.4%

Which means on the day of voting many would be turned away if they do not have that states registations documentation needed to be able to cast a vote.

Not a game changer but if these are wrong with voter fraud then are there more states also?

Secret CIA assessment says Russia was trying to help Trump win White House

The CIA has concluded in a secret assessment that Russia intervened in the 2016 election to help Donald Trump win the presidency, rather than just to undermine confidence in the U.S. electoral system, according to officials briefed on the matter.

Offline

#68 2016-12-10 00:02:19

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Election Meddling

Why would Russia want to help Trump? Seriously! You would think they would want Hillary to win, because then they could have a weak President that they could take advantage of, they could invade more countries, take more land, and as they do that, they would make the US President look foolish and weak. Now if Putin tries to take advantage of Trump, he will quickly burn up Trump's good will towards Russia. You have to remember, Trump has a big ego, if Putin invades a country, an makes Trump look weak and ineffectual, Trump's popularity will go down, this will make Trump look foolish, and he is not the sort to take a gut punch and shrug it off! Trump will retaliate against Russia because of his hurt pride. Trump does not take insults sitting down! So what are the advantages to Russia in Trump being President? Nothing! There are more advantages to Russia having a weak Jimmy Carter like President, who doesn't mind the slings and arrows the Russians throw at him, so there is no reason for Russia to hack into the election and affect the voting results in Trump's favor.

Offline

#69 2016-12-10 06:06:16

Terraformer
Member
From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,295
Website

Re: Election Meddling

Russia may benefit from a Jimmy Carter, *but that wasn't an option in this election*.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

Offline

#70 2016-12-10 10:15:54

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,235

Re: Election Meddling

When I look at the percentage of counted I am upset that many votes have not been counted regardless of any change of out come in that it means votes do not count.....that needs to be fixed.

Offline

#71 2016-12-10 10:35:44

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 4,032
Website

Re: Election Meddling

Aw,  for crying out loud!  Putin wanted Trump because he can manipulate Trump into doing what Putin wants,  and he couldn't manipulate Clinton. 

Trump biggest investors of late are Russian.  That means he is in hoc to the same Russian mafia that keeps Putin in power.  We've seen this before in 1930's Chicago:  when you owe money to an armed mob,  you do what they tell you to do.  And don't think that Russian mafia isn't armed,  from their point of view,  that's the purpose in supporting Putin. 

Add to that,  Trump is a compulsive counterpuncher.  It's a psychological failing,  a weakness deriving from a fundamental insecurity somewhere.  Bait him,  and he will respond,  he cannot help but respond.  Putin knows this,  and has experience from his KGB days exploiting characteristics like this. 

Now,  lest Tom think I am a "liberal Clinton supporter";  consider this:  I DO NOT believe in political ideologies.  They are LIES,  and they make bad public policy.  Both the left and the right are LIARS,  as far as I am concerned.  And,  they have exaggerated this politicing to the point of treason.  I say that becase "winning" is prioritized far higher than "the good of the country".  I consider that treason,  and millions have already witnessed it.

I ran a trade study some months back on Trump and Clinton. I found two salient results:  (1) both were utterly despicable candidates,  and (2) Clinton was the slightly lesser of the two evils because she would bring less chaos.  My conclusions are indeed being borne out:  observe the chaos of the transition,  and the chaos that science-deniers and otherwise-know-nothings are going to bring to the agencies they will head. 

Observe also that a fair fraction of Trump's advisors come from the same Goldman Sachs that was instrumental in the Wall Street-precipitated Great Recession.  Trump was on Goldman Sach's do-not-loan list at the time of the crash,  because his history is abuse of the bankruptcy laws to avoid paying back creditors at all (6 such bankruptcies,  all matters of public record,  Tom!  The bankers all agree:  Trump is a promoter,  not a real businessman). 

So why would these Goldman Sachs executives serve in his cabinet?  To manipulate him the same way Putin will,  to get what they want (which is to profit massively as they finish destroying the middle class).   The other corporate giants are there to do exactly the same thing. 

This is exactly why I hated both Trump and Clinton:  they perpetuate the giant corporate welfare state,  the rule by the rich elite if you prefer that terminology.  Trump LIED to his angry left-behind supporters during the campaign.  The Carrier jobs thing is only window-dressing.  He has no intention of dismantling the giant corporate welfare state that has left them behind for 3 generations now.  He's part and parcel of it,  just like Clinton.  Which is why I hate them both.

Take the blinders off and perceive the lies that are the agendas and ideologies of both parties!

Do you know how to tell when a politician is lying?    (Answer - his lips are moving.)

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2016-12-10 13:42:14)


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

Offline

#72 2016-12-10 17:39:35

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Election Meddling

SpaceNut wrote:

When I look at the percentage of counted I am upset that many votes have not been counted regardless of any change of out come in that it means votes do not count.....that needs to be fixed.

There are many votes that should not be counted as well, the votes of noncitizens, the votes of dead people, the votes of people who have already voted and are now voting in a different state, for example. I have received voting cards in the mail for my dead mother, and my brother who lives in Alaska! I have seen my brother's name on the voting register next to mine, even though he doesn't live with us, its not hard to imagine someone taking advantage of this and voting more than once. Not every vote should be counted, the illegitimate ones should not be! We definitely need voter ID, people who cannot prove they are US citizens should not be allowed to vote. No legitimate voter should be disenfranchised,  but illegitimate voters who's votes are counted when they should not be disenfranchise every legitimate voter who voted opposite of an illegitimate voter.

Offline

#73 2016-12-10 18:08:40

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Election Meddling

GW Johnson wrote:

Aw,  for crying out loud!  Putin wanted Trump because he can manipulate Trump into doing what Putin wants,  and he couldn't manipulate Clinton.

 
Who do you think is smarter, Trump or Putin? If Trump was easy to manipulate, he would have lost his family fortune to some scam artist a long time ago. Have you ever heard the expression, "A fool and his money are soon parted?" Trump is no fool!

Trump biggest investors of late are Russian.

 
Not all Russians are supporters of Putin, just like not all Germans during World War II were supporters of Hitler, that is an over simplification.

That means he is in hoc to the same Russian mafia that keeps Putin in power.

 
How many resorts does Trump own in Russia? Its very simple. In order to win an election, you need to find differences with your opponent in order to argue you and not her! Trump used the worsening relations with Russia as a wedge issue between himself and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, now that he's won, Trump doesn't need to do anything for Putin, he owes few people anything, about half of the Republican Party did not support him, he got elected with some blue collar Democrats crossing the line to vote for him instead of Hillary!

We've seen this before in 1930's Chicago:  when you owe money to an armed mob,  you do what they tell you to do.  And don't think that Russian mafia isn't armed,  from their point of view,  that's the purpose in supporting Putin.

 
Donald Trump is soon to be commander in chief of the most powerful country in the World, his America First policy will not always serve Russia or Putin. There is little that the Russian mob can do to him that will not start a war with the United States, after all assassinating a head of state is considered an act of war! I don't think Russia will do that. If they supported Donald Trump, and expect to take advantage of him, then I think were mistaken.

Add to that,  Trump is a compulsive counterpuncher.  It's a psychological failing,  a weakness deriving from a fundamental insecurity somewhere.  Bait him,  and he will respond,  he cannot help but respond.  Putin knows this,  and has experience from his KGB days exploiting characteristics like this.

I don't see how Trump counter punching Russia is an advantage to Russia, its generally not a goo idea to bait a guy with his finger on the nuclear trigger! I think they will give him a wide berth!

Now,  lest Tom think I am a "liberal Clinton supporter";  consider this:  I DO NOT believe in political ideologies.  They are LIES,  and they make bad public policy.  Both the left and the right are LIARS,  as far as I am concerned.  And,  they have exaggerated this politicing to the point of treason.  I say that becase "winning" is prioritized far higher than "the good of the country".  I consider that treason,  and millions have already witnessed it.

That is an overgeneralization, some political ideologies do work and others do not, you judge them by their merits and their results. The results indicate that freedom works ad tyranny does not, the United States has outlasted Napoleon, Hitler, and the Soviet Union, these other ideologies did not stand the test of time, American freedom has! You need to be objective, the Soviet Union is no more, it has been replaced by a fascist dictator, so Russia still has some distance to travel before they get I right.

I ran a trade study some months back on Trump and Clinton. I found two salient results:  (1) both were utterly despicable candidates,  and (2) Clinton was the slightly lesser of the two evils because she would bring less chaos.  My conclusions are indeed being borne out:  observe the chaos of the transition,  and the chaos that science-deniers and otherwise-know-nothings are going to bring to the agencies they will head.

 
What chaos, the appointments Trump has made to his cabinet have proceeded apace, the Sore Loser Press has reported on chaos, or so I've heard, because I have not really read any of it! Trump received a phone call from the leader of Taiwan, congratulating him on his election, the Chinese Government was outraged, Trump doesn't really care!

Observe also that a fair fraction of Trump's advisors come from the same Goldman Sachs that was instrumental in the Wall Street-precipitated Great Recession.

 
Same people that contributed to Clinton's campaign, so? You appoint successful people if you want a successful Administration. Would you rather see me as Treasury Secretary instead? I can go to Trump Tower and see about getting myself an Administration appointment, I could use the fact that I am not a billionaire as a major selling point, I could argue that he has too many rich people and that he should appoint someone like me instead. How do you think that would work?

Trump was on Goldman Sach's do-not-loan list at the time of the crash,  because his history is abuse of the bankruptcy laws to avoid paying back creditors at all (6 such bankruptcies,  all matters of public record,  Tom!  The bankers all agree:  Trump is a promoter,  not a real businessman). 

So why would these Goldman Sachs executives serve in his cabinet?  To manipulate him the same way Putin will,  to get what they want (which is to profit massively as they finish destroying the middle class).   The other corporate giants are there to do exactly the same thing.

 
If they think that, they are fools indeed! Just because they think they can manipulate Trump doesn't mean they can! Sometimes Trump wants you to think he can be manipulated, that is how he operates, he want people to underestimate him!

This is exactly why I hated both Trump and Clinton:  they perpetuate the giant corporate welfare state,  the rule by the rich elite if you prefer that terminology.  Trump LIED to his angry left-behind supporters during the campaign.  The Carrier jobs thing is only window-dressing.  He has no intention of dismantling the giant corporate welfare state that has left them behind for 3 generations now.  He's part and parcel of it,  just like Clinton.  Which is why I hate them both.

But Trump has no record in government, Hillary Clinton has! You are making assumptions about him that cannot be proven or disproven until he has had a chance at being President, he has held no political office before!

Take the blinders off and perceive the lies that are the agendas and ideologies of both parties!

Do you know how to tell when a politician is lying?    (Answer - his lips are moving.)

GW

Don't worry, if Trump turns out to be a liar, I am sure there will be plenty of Republicans willing to challenge him in the next primary, starting with Ted Cruz!

Offline

#74 2016-12-10 22:42:49

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,235

Re: Election Meddling

Where's the outrage over Russia's hack of the US election?

I think that many have tried to make the voices heard but its up to the government not just its poeple to correct the problem and errors there in caused as a result of it.

Well it is less than 20 F out today but I do not have a working furnace, wood stove, or electric heating so I know poor..
The Government was about the Shutdown on the 9th but that Threat Ends in The Senate with the signed continuing Resolution to fund the government unti the 28th of April next year.....attached to this was the coal miners' health benefits which rather than continuing for life it now runs out at the same time.
http://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/201 … enate.html


This must be saber rattling then China flies nuclear-capable bomber in South China Sea after Trump Taiwan call, US officials say and nothing to do with the Trump call....

Offline

#75 2016-12-10 22:47:52

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Election Meddling

China can do what it likes, Russia can do what it likes, Trump is going to be President. he Recount has been called off, if not restarted by December 13, it is over! the election is over, you don't have to like it, but it is a fact. I had the same problem when Obama got elected twice! Now its your turn I suppose. I suggest you just give Trump a chance, he may surprise you!

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB