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Rob,
I said get ALL the numbers from the UN, not just the ones you want to use. Put them all on a graph or a spreadsheet. Get the numbers of guns owned by civilians for ALL countries for which the data is available. Put those numbers on the same graph or spreadsheet. Then tell me what you see.
Forget it. I already know you won't do it.
Here (if it's not obvious where the US falls, we'd be that country with the giant green bar):
Edit: I tried to edit the post to get the image to load. It didn't work. You can copy and paste the link and look at the image yourself.
[img src="https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/12106715_415690525283615_4300253746353625866_n.png?_nc_cat=0&oh=bdac273b60f8e4a156bbaed390f661b7&oe=5B797CD2"/]
Notes on Germany:
I never said anything about not liking Germany. My feelings about Germany and Germans is entirely irrelevant to this little thing called "history" which is studiously ignored by people who always seem to think they are so special or different compared to the next group of people that they could never possibly make the same mistakes, despite all evidence to the contrary. We're not holding up a country whose government mass murdered more of their own children in less than five years than American civilian owned guns will kill in the US for the next 1,100+ years as a model for why we should implement their "gun control" laws.
The only "crime" that the kids who were murdered committed was not being the right religion, race, ethnicity, or skin color. The only commonality that they all shared was that they were all unarmed and all murdered by the only people with guns- their own government. That should end the object lesson regarding what happens when civilians give up their guns and trust that someone else will protect them from criminals. That wasn't the first time that happened and sadly won't be the last time because magical thinkers such as yourself continue to believe objectively (historically) false ideas about the way the world works when you're unarmed and the criminal (with or without a uniform) is not.
People who lived through the Nazi's brutality are still alive. This is not something that happened in medieval times. It's not some obscure fairy tale from a far away land. I did not "make up" what the Nazis did to their own people to support my argument. Those monsters actually took pictures of what they did to their own people. No serious person arguing for more gun control is going to use Germany in their argument unless they are profoundly evil.
What you're really after is "people control". You want to control the behavior of other people. You want to control what they can own and what they can do with what they own. Until criminals start obeying laws, you're wasting your time. When that happens, we won't need guns for self protection and it will be self evident. Somehow we all have to evolve to no longer be human to get the result you say you want.
Last edited by kbd512 (2018-05-24 13:28:01)
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kbd512, I am not going to compare modern developed countries with underdeveloped countries. I find it interesting that you compare the United States with El Salvador, Honduras, or Venezuela. If you look at the link I posted, those are the countries with the highest intentional homicide rates; next is United States Virgin Islands. I listed developed countries because they have modern laws regarding firearms.
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Rob,
Murder is murder. Civilian gun ownership is civilian gun ownership. People kill other people for the same reasons the world over. In that regard, we're not so different from each other. The rates vary from country to country, but the graph doesn't show the correlation between civilian firearms ownership and murder that you want it to show and that's why you're choosing to ignore it. The countries where only one group of people (typically the government, no matter what form that takes) are the ones with the highest murder rates. You previously stated that having fewer guns available would reduce violent crimes because fewer guns would be readily available to criminals. The data doesn't support your argument and the graph makes that very clear for anyone who is not being deliberately obtuse about the matter. If the data supported your argument, then it would help you make your point in a more damning way than anything I've ever seen used by gun control advocacy groups and the media, but it doesn't and that's why I'm arguing the point.
I'm comparing every country in the world because there's an entire spectrum of different laws, rules, and regulations around firearms such that an apples-to-apples comparison is impossible. The best way to compare the results (murder rates vs firearms ownership rates) is to line up every example available and see what it shows, rather than trying to slice and dice the data to support any specific argument. If your logic was correct, then it shouldn't matter what set of countries we decide to use for the comparison. The pattern of results should be the same or at least substantially similar. They're not, so something else must factor into murder rates besides firearms availability to civilians.
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Your so called statistics don't hold up. Murder rates I just posted show the United States has several times the murder rate of countries with gun control. Your argument is to compare the United States to third world countries. Do so states the US *IS* a third world country. Interesting.
Again, look at what I proposed. Your continuing arguments are digging you deeper.
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The assumption that a reduced gun population will leave only what remains in the hands of good owners and not criminals to which you only get that through enforcement status checks.
So what can be done via law is the Red Flag bill asHouse OKs gun-confiscation from dangerous people
The Illinois House has approved legislation to create a procedure to temporarily confiscate guns from people threatening violence. The House voted 80-32 Wednesday.
Other states following through Texas considers 'red flag' law in wake of school shooting: governor and also California Moves To Let Schools, Co-workers 'Red Flag' Dangerous Gun Owners
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Rob,
If there was any direct correlation between civilian firearms ownership rates and murder rates due to the factor you previously claimed regarding the availability firearms to which criminals could obtain easy access, and that is exactly what you previously claimed, then it wouldn't simply manifest itself in the handful of countries you cherry picked from the much broader data set to try to support your argument. The US firearms ownership rate is the highest in the world, yet our murder rate is nowhere close to being the highest in the world and violent crime continues to drop, despite all media sensationalism to the contrary. If there was a grain of truth to your claim, then our murder rate should be among the highest in the world, if not the highest in the world. The data available does not support your assertion.
I am indeed "digging deep", as you put it. The available data buried your false assertion in a hole deeper than the Marianas Trench. Something besides the availability of firearms must explain why it is that the US doesn't have the highest murder rate in the world since everyone and their dog has a gun here.
Maybe, just maybe, when criminals roam free because governments don't do the only thing all governments are mandated to do (protect their own people from criminals and foreign invaders), we have increased crime rates. When government does its number one job effectively, crime rates decrease and whether or not civilians have firearms is largely irrelevant.
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How many US homicides are committed with weapons other than firearms? How does the non-firearm homicide rate compare against other western countries?
Hmmm. According to the CDC, in 2015 the non-firearm homicide rate was 1.5 per 100,000. Comparable to France and Canada, and significantly higher than the UK's. Of course, if all firearms disappeared there would be a significant substitution effect, as murderers used other weapons.
"I'm gonna die surrounded by the biggest idiots in the galaxy." - If this forum was a Mars Colony
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How many US homicides are committed with weapons other than firearms? How does the non-firearm homicide rate compare against other western countries?
Hmmm. According to the CDC, in 2015 the non-firearm homicide rate was 1.5 per 100,000. Comparable to France and Canada, and significantly higher than the UK's. Of course, if all firearms disappeared there would be a significant substitution effect, as murderers used other weapons.
That's what I posted in #74 on last page. According to UNODC the rate was 4.88 per 100,000 for all weapons.
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Still not stopping or solving the issue as Exactly a week after a suspect killed 10 at a high school in Santa Fe, Texas, tragedy struck again. Noblesville, Indiana, school shooting is at least the 21st of 2018 article gives dates of each and kills that occured
Hero science teacher tackled student gunman at Indiana school as student walked into his classroom at Noblesville West Middle School with a pair of handguns and then opened fire.
The shooter fired off several rounds before “Mr. Seaman started running at him, he’s a teacher, a science teacher — he tackled him to the ground,” was shot three times Friday morning as he lunged at the gunman in a bid to protect his class.
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Texas governor unveils plan to reduce gun violence in schools
Texas Gov. Greg Abbott (R) on Wednesday unveiled his plan to reduce gun violence in schools in the wake of a mass shooting at a high school in his state.
The School and Firearm Safety Action Plan contains 40 proposals and recommendations, including more law enforcement at schools, mental health evaluations for students at risk of harming others and improvements to campus security programs.
"This plan is a starting point, not an ending place," Abbott said in a statement. "It provides strategies that can be used before the next school year begins to keep our students safe when they return to school. This plan will make our schools safer and our communities safer."
His plan calls for more school marshals and for active shooter and emergency response training.
To prevent threats, Abbott recommends schools be provided with more mental health training and behavioral threat assessment programs.
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I'm American. I own a gun. I grew up and learned how to use, operate and respect firearms. I've hunted large game (deer). I've pursued target practice as a hobby. I was a boy scout.
I believe that the second amendment should be removed, primarily because there is no ability to regulate this right. I believe that access to firearms should be regulated. I believe that those who want to own a gun should be allowed to do so, but should be required to demonstrate that they will be responsible in maintaining and operating a firearm.
But hey, easy access to firearms by untrained, untested, emotional individuals, what could go wrong?
KBD512, a movement to regulate gun ownership is not a movement to remove gun rights.
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Its to make sure that people know what the rules are and that they are accountable for them even in death....as there must be away to make sure that they do not end up on the black market when they are no longer wanted or needed or can be controlled.
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I guess that I should not be surprised at the laspe of the state of Florida stopped doing gun permit checks for more than a year in which they failed to do national background checks that could have disqualified people from gaining a permit to carry a concealed weapon.
The state ultimately revoked 291 permits and fired an employee blamed for the lapse after an inspector general's report detailing the problem was sent in June 2017 to top officials in the department who oversee the program.
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Quite frankly, there are a bunch of life skills that should be taught in the schools, but are not.
Gun safety and familiarity is one of them, which if required for graduation, would eventually greatly reduce home shootings by children using unsecured guns.
Being able to change a flat tire safely is another, as is checking engine oil level and knowing what to add when the level is low. Same for coolant. These days, there really isn't much else. But this is not taught.
Being able to balance a checkbook is another, which is tantamount to being able to run a household budget. Not taught.
I think driver's ed as we have known it is a joke. To graduate, it should be a required year-long course that must be passed in each of the 9, 10, 11, and 12th grades. After 4 years of year-long courses focused on skills far beyond the basics, you would see the human-caused accident rate drop dramatically as earlier inadequately-trained cohorts die off.
You start with reading. If you cannot read the problem, how could you possibly do math? Or science? Or government? Or anything else that must be taught?
If your students do not speak and read English, then do that first. They cannot succeed in those other subjects until they can speak, read, and write in English.
Doing it any other way is so absurd I do not have the words to disparage it. And yet I taught such students in a school where "mainstream-immersion" of non-English-speakers was policy! Utter BS.
I don't know how to teach common sense where it is lacking, except by pointing out the stupidity of things where common sense is lacking. Many if not most of our public officials do seem to lack it. So maybe we ought to teach it somehow, as a graduation requirement.
GW
GW Johnson
McGregor, Texas
"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew, especially one dead from a bad management decision"
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clark,
All "gun regulation" movements are really intended to restrict "people rights". Unfortunately, such regulations never affect criminals. If they did, there'd be no weapons of any kind in our prisons. Scribbling something on a piece of paper has no effect on what a person CAN DO, even if it affects what a person who follows the laws WILL DO. There are already severe punishments for assault and murder, which stops no one at all or ever. The "gun regulation" in places like Chicago has the effect of creating more defenseless victims by providing successive impediments and means testing to exercise the human right to effective self defense from criminal assault.
There is one gun store in all of Mexico, yet they have far more problems with violence and murders than the US does on a per capita basis. I'm not entertaining any BS that the criminals who shot their fellow Mexicans with fully automatic weapons obtained them from US gun shops, either. Those criminals there steal or purchase firearms from corrupt members of the Mexican Army or la Policia. The civilians are typically defenseless and typically raped, robbed, tortured, and murdered by the criminal gangs there.
The sensible regulations and laws around firearms are already in place, but not consistently enforced or enforced at all in many cases. Excuses for not enforcing existing laws are not a reason to write more laws that won't be consistently enforced. The nonexistent mental health care system needs to return, since some people clearly are a danger to themselves and others. Any prior convicted felon who the state can prove shot someone is automatically sentenced to additional time for firearm possession.
GW,
How about learning how to swim? We had people join the Navy, mostly from inner city areas, that didn't know how to swim.
We're surrounded by electrical systems, motor vehicles, firearms, and lots of water. Some "lifestyle choices" aren't really "optional". We have kids (in high school, I'm not talking about toddlers here, even if they act that way sometimes) who aren't aware enough to understand that walking out in front of a motor vehicle is a bad idea, even if they have "the right of way".
If we could teach reasonable behavior (uncommon sense), we wouldn't be having any debates about stuff like this.
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Well in my school days they had every year gym class all year which went through all the sports, gymnastics included for the natural olympian even had the presidential awards in the day for those that were able to excel in them. Only rich schools have pools for swim teams, most have trouble just fielding a team for soccer let alone any other sports these days.
Most high schools have been budget cut so bad that Extracurricular classes are non existent limiting chances to learn trades, speak a second language or even the arts are not available...
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Kbd512 is quite right: add swimming to the list of life skills that should be taught as required-to-graduate in the schools. Maybe cooking, too. And a bit on sensible nutrition for shopping at the store.
The emphasis on all kids going to college is wrong, too. There used to be vocational tracks oriented toward the trades. We still need that, it's getting very hard to find good machinists, mechanics, and even welders, these days.
I vote for the arts, too! There's documented evidence that music training improves math skills, for example.
The current standardized testing BS is what forced out all those other subjects, especially since they were stupid enough to tie the funding to the outcome of a low-ball test measure. Illegal as it is to do so, the pressure to teach-to-the-test, and only to the test, is incredibly enormous. It is my considered opinion that the originators and supporters of that standardized testing BS should all be lined up against the wall and shot.
Here in Texas, the legislature and governor are running a real scam for political advantage at election time: decreasing the constitutionally-mandated state funding for schools and banking the savings, which forces the local entities to raise property taxes. Then the state blames the locals for being "out of control". This is the sort of malfeasance in office that should be a death penalty offence.
Once again, you judge. May I suggest my acid test for ethics in public officials? What do they value more? Money? Or the lives and well-being of people? Base your evaluation on what they do, not what they say. Talk is cheap. You can tell when a politician is lying: his lips are moving.
GW
GW Johnson
McGregor, Texas
"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew, especially one dead from a bad management decision"
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The cooking class in my day was all girls and the typing class as these were still considered not something real men took. The issue for the trades classes was material and safe guards on the equipment to be able to do well in the class to which a poor school district counted on donations of these.
The judge, people of power all the way up to the president all seem to fall under the same answer as to they value money and not the people...
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Something else that I remember from way back when is that the early grades under high school were all sectioned and selected by letters A,B C such that the smartest were in the A class groupings and so on down with the C grouping being segragated to other parts of the school away from the others. Now class are not seperated out and a group of paraprofessionals and aids are used in the class room which contain those students. This tends to work to a degree for acceptance but it also slows the progress of others in that the core classes are slowed and not to the higher level of what should be taught for getting the most out of how smart the others might be within those same classes.
Society in a way caused some of the groupings to be parpetuated under the thought that not all should go to college or to even getting an education while in school. This grouping have also been seen at the wage earning levels and into poverty as students were not getting the education that they needed to be able to survive in the real world after leaving the house that they have known after graduating.
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Striking out in anger from losing... Mass Shooting Jacksonville
Police are responding to a “mass shooting” Sunday at a popular area in downtown Jacksonville, Fla., filled with bars and restaurants. A "mass shooting" at a video game tournament in Jacksonville, Florida has reportedly left at least four dead. Four people are dead and at least nine others wounded Sunday afternoon in a mass shooting at the Jacksonville Landing. The Jacksonville Sheriff's Office is on the scene of a mass shooting at the Jacksonville Landing, multiple fatalities have been reported. Police have confirmed that one suspect died at the scene, also confirming there are no other suspects.
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SpaceNut,
We have kids shooting other kids over loosing a video game. Perhaps I'm the only one, but there seems to be something fundamentally wrong with that.
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The big question will be how did he come to have a gun in the first place. What systems of checks and balances did not work.
Seems the education system and parenting is missing something very much needed to help them with self control when losing....
First in sports not everyone gets a trophy would help...
Second getting every student to do gym every year, every quater of the year wouldn't hurt...
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We are becoming a nation where we are not safe any longer being out and about....
One white male suspect was in custody...
shooting at Pittsburgh synagogue as four people were killed and three officers injured...
The Tree of Life synagogue describes itself on its website as a conservative congregation that is traditional, progressive and egalitarian.
huh?
Edit update:
Death and injured on the rise Gunman kills at least 8, injures 12 in Pittsburgh synagogue shooting during Sabbath religious services on Saturday.
In apparent Hate crime
gunman walked into the building and yelled “All Jews must die”.
Now where have I heard a speach about Jews.....
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Trump in typical form is opening his mouth and blaming the synagogue for not having armed guards and that the people should carry arms as well.
Dispicable....
This is the extreme radical white terrorist which he is so fond of.....
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More gun violence 7 wounded in late-night shooting at Riverside nightclub
Student shooting at North Carolina high school after bullying conflict ...
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