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#51 2018-05-20 13:31:43

Terraformer
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From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,286
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Re: Advice to parents on school options

The judge should dismiss these lawsuits with prejudice, and make those filing them pay for any court costs incurred by the Sneads. To do anything otherwise would establish the precedent that those who know a criminal are liable for their actions.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#52 2018-05-20 16:56:14

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,909

Re: Advice to parents on school options

The lack of ethics classes in high school, guidance counselors seem to be doing nothing not only before as the young man had a devastating loss nor after it seems to be a red flag.

That the state did not seem to care to provide shelter once the parent was dead nor was there apparently any family near by.

The gun ownership as a child should have also been met with a questioning addititude once the parent is gone as well by agencies. It should have also been questioned by those that took him in as well, hine site is everything.

Just because at age 18 you are declared an adult does not make you capable of caring for one self.....most states still indicate that you are a ward of the parents if you need assistance after turning 18 up to age 24.

Houston police chief: Vote out politicians only "offering prayers" after shootings inaction on the state and federal level in response to repeated shootings at schools across the country.

"If you have firearms in your home and you do not secure them and you don't secure them in a manner that can preclude someone from grabbing them and taking them and carrying out this carnage, [there] is a criminal liability that attaches," Acevedo suggested.

He added, "I believe that anyone that owns a firearm that doesn't secure it properly [and it] ends up in the wrong hands and used to kill innocent people, that that should carry some significant consequences. We need to think about that on the national level across this country."

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#53 2018-05-21 11:36:41

GW Johnson
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From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 3,985
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Re: Advice to parents on school options

So far,  everyone is still missing the main point:  this school was inadequately defended. 

News reports indicate the school officials thought they were hardened,  because they employed two armed guards.  But so very clearly only one of those guards made the confrontation,  and got taken out before he do anything to stop the shooter.  See again my prescription in post #48 above.  It still stands.  They didn't meet it. 

Blaming the school system for this won't help.  The purpose of a school is to teach kids,  not to raise them as a surrogate parent.  This requirements creep on schools has to stop.  There is not time in the school day for a teacher to fill both roles,  even if class sizes were 5-10,  and they are not!  If your favorite politician fails to recognize this,  or recommends things for expanding the school's role as surrogate parent,  my advice to you is vote him out of office as fast as you can.  Or recall him,  if possible.

The fundamental problem really is societal (but not what you probably think):  kids not raised properly by their parents.  All the classroom discipline problems,  all the kids suffering from bullying issues,  and all the kids going nuts and killing people trace exactly to this cause.  They weren't raised because no one was there at home to raise them.  The start of this problem traces to the 1960's,  when it first became impossible for a middle class family to lead a middle class life on the income from one middle class job. 

How that happened is another story,  but it's all about profit for the giants at the expense of everybody else, getting political/tax avoidance things done for them with all their lobby and campaign monies.  This happens because the politicians work for whoever bought their jobs for them,  not we who "elected" them.  This is so pervasive now,  that they are rigging the ballot to distract us by dividing us with political sound bites that are false.  The rig the ballot by rigging primary outcomes.  Both parties' primaries were so rigged in 2016,  or didn't you notice that?

These increasing mass shootings are the direct result of the extinction of middle class life on a single income.  Poor people are easier to dominate.  Once you face that problem with clear vision,  you might realize the only way to fix it might well be armed revolution.  None of these bought politicians are going to vote themselves out of that under-the-table money.

And THAT is the reason for the Second Amendment.  As it has been since the founding of the Republic.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2018-05-21 11:57:16)


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#54 2018-05-21 13:34:26

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
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Posts: 5,991
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Re: Advice to parents on school options

33020785_10155428669326711_2181874799758802944_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&_nc_eui2=AeEP6efOVQ7IHziBCQ5VQ9kbqN2xRtHwfrz01T08YrBVkZPTgf-pGWAhZ6Jo5goM_pM-ujwQGumw16jieSM4qq1-HRJkcHmJnpLcjhVjjawmkA&oh=b82030236c67d175d771dfbf432298fa&oe=5B817AF2

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#55 2018-05-21 15:53:35

kbd512
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Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 3,486

Re: Advice to parents on school options

Australia had a mass shooting in Osmington on May 11th, 2018.  7 people were shot and killed.

Edit:

The German government murdered an estimated 1.5 million Jewish kids in WWII.  If the rate of firearms deaths for American children remains the same as it is today (roughly 1,300 per year according to CNN), then we'll approach that number of American children killed with firearms in another 1,100 years or so.  I guess those firearms deaths are acceptable to our liberal regressives since the German military did the killing.  At least they were professionally murdered by their own government, as opposed to all those evil and incompetent American civilian gun owners who never killed anyone.

We'd never put any American children in concentration camps like the Nazis did...  Unless they happened to be Japanese or Native Americans.  I wonder which group of Americans other Americans will put in concentration camps next.  That is, after we disarm everyone who never hurt anyone else.

Last edited by kbd512 (2018-05-21 16:27:07)

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#56 2018-05-21 18:52:51

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,909

Re: Advice to parents on school options

That’s really not what is being discussed now is it...make a new topic if genocide is where this is going as its not....

There may be some deaths due to racism but that’s also not what we are seeing....

Rather than gun control how about a broad weapons monitoring system to verify that the guns are meeting the ownership rules of registry, that the registered owner still is in possession of it, that black market guns are either registered or the possessor goes to jail especially if untraceable, locking them up from minors or the mentally ill is done to the fullest extent in that the gun is not in the lock box as the ammunition...., and this is not just a federal issue but a state one as well, send in the man power to get it done. Keep the guns but enforce the rules for intended use.

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#57 2018-05-22 02:21:04

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
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Re: Advice to parents on school options

From Facebook...
32838094_2209133749103609_4013779339068833792_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&_nc_eui2=AeE4T8-1DoBsFb1YH1RDk4E8Eq1JahdlaRbD44EZaMp2GWm_wa7ik4yY8N7H43gGhqden7fAO7IcG8qXH_zz6PU6Vfwe4Ry44Kly7Vt5ZJ1c1Q&oh=d5013c9e2453ba2616877e7f06357565&oe=5B76E200&_nc_o2e=z89c3cb0f
One comment on this post...

Wayne Allan wrote:

Bullshit, no knock raids are illegal, they can't enter your home without consent or showing you a warrant before you give them the right to enter. He should be a free man.

Do you still claim weapons protect you from police?

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#58 2018-05-22 04:24:51

Terraformer
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From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,286
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Re: Advice to parents on school options

Unless they identified themselves as police before entering - as in, showed valid ID and a warrant - then he should not be considered guilty of anything. The police were the ones who broke the law.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#59 2018-05-22 12:15:44

kbd512
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Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 3,486

Re: Advice to parents on school options

SpaceNut,

I think that's exactly what's being discussed here since our liberal "frenemies" here in America gather in public places holding signs advocating for murdering NRA members, along with people who merely have a difference of political opinion who have never owned a gun in their life.  I think liberals support theft and murder when they're doing the stealing and killing, but cry crocodile tears when they're on the receiving end.  The mere fact that RobertDyck used Germany in his picture shows how weak the argument is.

I will NEVER take American public policy cues from a country like Germany whose government rounded up their own people based on racial, ethnic, or religious differences and shot them with machine guns outside their own homes, put them in gas chambers to kill them with pesticides, and used them for medical experiments that make water boarding look like the college hazing ritual that it is here in America.  Anyone who thinks that can't happen here is spectacularly ignorant of our own history with the Japanese Americans and Native Americans.

Instead of posting a photo of a local drug dealer who was illegally armed to begin with, he should have followed up with a picture of 19 month old Bounkham Phonesavanh.  No person in possession of narcotics like marijuana is permitted to purchase, possess, or use firearms in the State of Texas and most likely any other state.  Internet memes notwithstanding, that'd be why Tyler Harrell lost his court case against APD SWAT.

According to Habersham County Sheriff, Joey Terrell, that sleeping toddler, Bounkham Phonesavanh, "impeded the trajectory of their grenade".  In other words, a toddler wasn't supposed to be sleeping in his playpen when an officer threw a grenade at him and it was his (the sleeping toddler's) responsibility to get out of the way.  None of the SWAT officers involved in that raid were ever charged even though they showed up to the wrong house, but the child is disfigured for life and has some vision and hearing damage, as would be expected if you taped a stun grenade to your face and pulled the pin.  They were just doing their jobs as good public servants, tossing grenades at children.  We need to make sure all civilians are disarmed so more SWAT teams can throw grenades at children without fear of being shot by the parents.

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#60 2018-05-22 13:39:02

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,991
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Re: Advice to parents on school options

kbd512 wrote:

The mere fact that RobertDyck used Germany in his picture shows how weak the argument is.

That image was taken from Facebook, I didn't create it. But your argument is spurious to put it mildly. You claim the solution to gun violence is more guns. That's what America has been doing since it was founded. Look at statistics, how well is that working?

You want an argument that's actually mine? I already pointed out the Branch Davidian compound in Waco Texas, and Ruby Ridge. In both cases the FBI went after a group of citizens with guns. In both cases the FBI did not have any legitimate charges against them. In Waco they were accused of possession of illegal weapons, but when they sifted the ashes after the fire they found all weapons were perfectly legal under Texas law. And senior FBI officers not involved in the raid pointed out David Koresh jogged in the morning at the same time every day on a public sidewalk. Proper FBI procedure was to park an unmarked car beside his route, arrest him when he jogged up. If they did that, they would have discovered nothing wrong. In the case of Ruby Ridge, an undercover FBI officer badgered one member into selling him a sawed-off shotgun; a textbook case of entrapment. But Ruby Ridge was a "citizens militia" that was training themselves to take up arms against their own government. They felt the government was out of control. For them the second amendment argument wasn't theoretical, they felt it was time now. So the government sent in forces to slaughter both groups of citizens. In both cases, it was highly illegal. In both cases Janet Reno had authorization from President Bill Clinton; effectively a pre-signed pardon.

That's what happens when you try to use guns against the government. More effective solution is to vote in a politician who will fix the problems, who will kick but. That's what Donald Trump is doing. If the problems can't be fixed, then burn down the system. Trump is not effectively fixing anything, but he is effectively burning down the system.

I'm concerned because this is the Mars Society. We don't want to import the NRA attitude toward guns to Mars.

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#61 2018-05-22 15:28:00

kbd512
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Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 3,486

Re: Advice to parents on school options

No, Rob, not even close.  I claim that part of being an adult requires that you stand up for yourself and others from time to time and defend them from evil people when necessary.  If a professional force, like the Police, could adequately perform that task, then I would be happy to let them do that.  It's blatantly obvious that they can't.  You want to disarm the potential future victims and I think that's simultaneously stupid, crazy, and evil.  People here live such sheltered lives that they can't even imagine what other parts of the world are like when the only people with the guns are truly evil.  Holding hands and singing kumbaya only works when the other person isn't really all that interested in hurting anyone else.  That's just plain truth.

Sometimes, obviously not all the time, you need to have tools to do that.  That's what guns are.  They're tools.  To me, they're no different than screw drivers or shovels.  I strap a gun to my hip the same way I strap a belt of any other tools and that is the only thing I have ever thought, believed, or felt about guns.  It's a necessary evil, like fossil fuels.  There's nothing better available at the moment.  If you think of something else that can stop someone determined to kill in their tracks, then you let the rest of us know about it.

I'm a big believer in technology.  I'll use the best technology science can devise, but the stated capability is what is required and I haven't seen any other tool that delivers it, despite many years of looking.  I know enough about fighting from actual painful first hand experience, not something I saw on the internet or a Hollyweird movie, both with and without weapons, to know what works and what doesn't.

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#62 2018-05-22 16:28:44

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,991
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Re: Advice to parents on school options

I'm Canadian. I have lived in a country with strict gun controls. Yes I agree people should defend themselves, and police do demand people not do so. Police can't do it all. But American gun culture is a problem. Here carrying any form of conceilled weapon is a criminal offence. The idea of strangers carrying lethal weapons scares the hell out of me. I was 13 when Canada changed laws to allow regular police to wear a gun, and I'm still not comfortable with that. Regulations over handguns are strict. Citizens certainly aren't allowed to carry one. Anyone simply carrying one in a public place will be treated as a terrorist. In practice that means criminals use much less lethal weapons, such as knives. You're much more likely to defend yourself against that.

Look up statistics, per capita violent death, and per capita gun deaths by country.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2018-05-22 17:40:59)

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#63 2018-05-22 18:12:42

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,909

Re: Advice to parents on school options

Kbd512 you are correct in that the meaning of the word has been updated

Definition of genocide : the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group. : the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group — compare homicide.

Service men of military in uniforms, Armed guards in uniform, police in uniform should not strike fear but in some neighborhoods it does without regard to whom is in the uniform for color or national of origins.
I am around armed security all day and you do get use to seeing the guns...
It also appears that some that died in the last were hit by freindly fire as well....

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#64 2018-05-22 19:07:05

kbd512
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Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 3,486

Re: Advice to parents on school options

Rob,

I'm American.  Here in America, a citizen has the right to his or her own life, our government doesn't grant that right because it is self evident, and the means to defend it is simply natural and there's nothing criminal about that.  Guns are the norm here in Texas.  You're quite right about the Police.  I'm happy to let them do their jobs, but if they can't be where I am the very second I need them, reason unimportant, then I need the means to defend my family against people who have no respect for other peoples' lives, never mind society's laws regarding what they can or can't have or where they can have it.  It's kinda funny that I would be very suspicious if I ever saw a Police Officer without a gun, but I would be.

You've probably walked past hundreds of people in your lifetime who were armed with handguns and never knew it.  You most certainly did when you lived in Miami.  Most people, the overwhelming majority of us in point of fact, are peaceable people just trying to make a living.  A few in our society are not so peaceable.

Your TV repairman's screwdriver is a lethal weapon and whether you've ever seen one used as such or not has no bearing on reality.  Anyone who believes a woman half the size of your typical street thug has any chance of living when that criminal is "only" armed with a knife really is living in their own little world.  With modern medicine, she may actually survive being raped after she's been flayed like a fish.  If the woman involved in that scenario was my own daughter, then I'd rather she just pulled a handgun out of her purse and shot the sorry SOB.

I did look up the stats.  These are things I know well and anyone can go to the CDC or FBI and get the numbers.

Simple carbon monoxide poisoning kills almost 5 times as many Americans as mass shootings and terrorism combined, but nobody is talking about banning backup gas powered generators.  Even so, dead is STILL dead.  There are not varying degrees of dead and one is not better than the other when the result is the same.  If you're going to pick something to be afraid of based upon how many people were killed by it every year, then be afraid of your car because your chances of being killed by a motor vehicle are significantly higher.

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#65 2018-05-22 21:06:38

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,991
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Re: Advice to parents on school options

I grew up a nerd. My father always told me to defend myself, but my mother told me not to. My mother was insistent that I run away. Occasionally when I couldn't get away, I did turn around and defend myself. When I won the fight, the bully who had attacked me would would complain, then my mother would order my father to beat me. So when I did exactly what my father told me to do, he punished me for it. As an adult I learned why. My parents had an argument, after my mother told off my father he beat her with a belt. She said if he ever touched her again, she would leave and take the children. My mother never did forgive him, their marriage disintegrated. It was years before she left. But during that time, when my mother accused me of something, my father beat me with a 2x4. Sometimes my brother would break something or get into something he shouldn't, and blame me. Sometimes a bully would attack me, corner me so I couldn't run away; whenever they did, I won the fight. But then my mother would order my father to beat me. A neighbour kid my age complained to police of his parents beating him. The police just took the kid back to the parents, had a long talk with them, then left the child with the parents. As soon as the police were gone, the parents took the kid into the basement and beat the living shit out of him. That was before "Child and Family Services" existed. The lesson is I have no recourse.

In 2007/2008 I worked for 7-Eleven. I ran the store along during the overnight shift, often called "graveyard shift", 11:00pm to 7:00am. I was expected to stop thieves. I had difficulty screwing up the courage, but you can't show fear. I did, and recovered several sandwiches, from spoiled brat teenagers and some very burly full-grown men. I was careful not to show fear, I was polite but firm. They always backed down. One teenager wouldn't surrender the sandwich, so I grabbed his arm and pulled the sandwich out of his sleeve. No one tried to jump me. I received notice a couple times that a 7-Eleven near my store was robbed, but no one ever tried to rob my store while I was on duty. One day a guy came into the store covered in blood, asked to use the bathroom. I told him we don't have a bathroom accessible to the public, all we have is the sink beside the Slurpee machines. He removed the blood soaked shirt, had a clean one underneath. Removed blood soaked runners, put on clean sandals. Put the blood soaked clothes in a garbage. Washed the blood off his hands, face, hair. He was polite, never threatened me. As soon as he left, I called the police. They sent a police car. However, the man came back, was in the store when the police arrived. He asked if they were for him, I just nodded. He dropped his head. I pointed out the guy in question to the police, they arrested him. One police officer said I mentioned blood soaked shirt and shoes, so I pointed to the garbage. He pulled them out, they were on top. I never heard anything more, never did learn what that was about.

I had quite a bit of merchandise stolen while I was on duty, but that was people sneaking stuff when I wasn't looking. The assistant manager said they never before operated the store with one person Friday and Saturday night, it was just too busy. He said losses were greater than wages for a second person. But no one ever attacked me, and when I confronted a thief, they always backed down.

When I was younger, I took some Kung Fu lessons. Not much, didn't even get the first belt. But lessons did include how to disarm an assailant with a knife. And when someone grabs me by the wrist, how to lock his arm and take him to his knees.

But if some SOB ever had a gun, I wouldn't be able to do squat.

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#66 2018-05-23 09:07:59

kbd512
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Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 3,486

Re: Advice to parents on school options

Rob,

If you think a handful of kung fu lessons you took as a kid has any bearing on the outcome of a street fight, then all I can say is that I hope you never get into one where the other people are intent on hurting you.  All the situations you described are exceptionally tame compared to any of the street fights I wasn't able to run away from.

I've taught martial arts to everyone from high school kids to senior citizens to Police Officers to people in the US Navy and Marine Corps.  I can teach a good student a lot fairly quickly, but it takes years to master what you're taught and apply it to several people attacking you at the same time.  I always let them know that hand-to-hand fighting is a last resort.  If they can avoid the situation to begin with through situational awareness, run away if they think they're fast enough, or have the legal ability to carry a firearm or other weapon for self defense, then they should do so after they receive training for that.  I don't teach fighting with firearms.  That's someone else's job and I go to those people for professional instruction, as should anyone who owns a firearm.

You're an older man now and I would think you'd be aware enough of your limitations to realize you're not going to run away from, let alone fight several people a third of your age, even if they're all unarmed, which is increasingly no longer the case.  More to the point, you shouldn't have to.  It's not your responsibility to be an easy target for criminals.  That's where guns come in.  If you had a simple handgun in your pocket and several of the local street toughs decided they'd like to have fun beating on you, then they should be smart enough to realize that's not going to happen when you're armed.  If not, they'll get shot.

The idea that you have to always shoot someone to end what's about to become a violent confrontation, merely because you have a gun, is completely absurd.  As previously stated, the only time I had to use a firearm outside the military the guy who was trying to break into our house was smart enough to leave immediately.  The end result of that situation was that everybody lived and nobody was hurt, unless he hurt himself jumping back over the fence in our backyard.  If he did hurt himself jumping the fence, then it's no great loss to society since he was breaking into peoples' homes.

If I did have to pull the trigger, then so be it.  A man with a crowbar was trying to get into our home through the backdoor at 2:30AM.  Nothing good was going to happen if he had come into the house and I was unarmed.  Nobody has a right to break into our home in the middle of the night to rape, rob, or murder as they please.  Anyone who believes otherwise is a criminal or someone who supports criminal behavior.

On that note, I must now leave to take my wife's XT5 to the body shop to repair the damage done by the crook who broke her windows last Thursday, looking for something in her car to steal, but finding nothing of value.  His little escapade will cost us at least $818 dollars, assuming there is no other damage found, and my wife may have to go to the doctor to get a painful little sliver of glass removed from her finger.  It's not a big deal, as long as we have the money to pay.

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#67 2018-05-23 10:59:37

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,991
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Re: Advice to parents on school options

I never expect to survive a fight. I survived work at 7-Eleven on sheer chutzpah. I was amazed when burly men backed down, but they did. It was part of my job, I had to do it. And acting authoritarian with no fear is the only way I got away with it. All my co-workers said they would never jump over the counter to chase after a theif, but I did. A couple 12-year-olds stole a pair of bags each of firewood. There was a second person in the store then, someone I was teaching how to run the overnight shift, so I could leave the store to run after them. I ran faster because I wasn't carrying anything. I yelled "Drop the wood now!" They did, and rabbited away. I picked up all 4 bags of firewood, and walked quickly but without appearing to hurry back to the store. I checked over my shoulder while trying to look like I wasn't. I expected the kids would follow, considering jumping me, but not sure what to do. Before they figured out what to do, I would be back in the store. It worked, that's exactly what happened. One customer who lives on the block talked to me next day, said she say the whole thing. The two kids were stalking me, considering jumping me. But as another friend said, if a pair of 12-year-old boys tried to jump a 205-pound fit 45-year-old man, it would have gone very badly for them. My weight behind a punch vs theirs?

But there was another time when a burly full-grown man walked out with a sandwich. I ran in front of him in the store parking lot, told him he has to go back because he forgot to pay for the sandwich. He said "what sandwich?" I pointed to the sandwich in his pocket, said "That one." He said "This? Take it!" Slapped it in my hand and stomped off. I got the merchandise back, so end of encounter.

That I can deal with. I've never been in a street fight. I haven't been in a "fight" since elementary school. I grew up on the blue-collar side of a railroad town. Transcona was built all on one side of the tracks, but back then the town separated itself anyway across the primary downtown street. So I grew up on the proverbial wrong side of the tracks. It's not like that now, but was then. A lot of kids picked a fight. I was taller than most, so any short kid that thought of himself as a bully picked on me. First part of junior high was also there: grade 7 and first few months of grade 8. Then my parents moved into a new house in a "bedroom" community outside the city. A rather rich community; both parents had to work to afford it. I had trouble adjusting to the idea that no one picked on me there. The new community was so rich, one student in my class was daughter of the Premier of the province. I felt I had "escaped" Transcona; no more fights.

So after all that, you want to allow criminals to carry guns? Really? It's about criminals, not you. If you have access to a gun, so do criminals.

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#68 2018-05-23 14:27:22

Terraformer
Member
From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,286
Website

Re: Advice to parents on school options

Uh, you could just ban convicted felons from owning firearms. Even so, banning law abiding folks from carrying guns doesn't actually stop criminals from carrying guns. Or reduce murders, for that matter - the UK homicide rate over time hasn't shown any connection to gun control measures. Shrugs. Banning handguns might have made it harder to do another Dunblane (though it's unlikely, given the number of criminals that manage to get hold of them despite the ban), but it didn't stop the Ariane Grande concert from being blown up a year ago yesterday.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#69 2018-05-23 17:11:07

kbd512
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Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 3,486

Re: Advice to parents on school options

Rob,

Last time I checked, by dictionary definition criminals don't follow the law.  Get it?  Do you really "get it"?  I don't think you do.

They don't care what laws you pass.  They're always going to have weapons.  You're not going to make it more difficult for them to get weapons because they don't care about what the laws say and will obtain weapons anyway.  Handguns are illegal in the UK, yet the criminals there seem to have no problem obtaining them to murder each other and law abiding citizens.  No background check, no training course, no nothing.  It's just cash and carry for criminals.

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#70 2018-05-23 18:35:23

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,909

Re: Advice to parents on school options

The weapons list would be quite large to remove from society just to stop those that use them to harm and kill; while I would not want to bring that mentality to mars I see that having the tools to do the work could be a problem if these are on that list.
We need to fix the education and the consequences for causing the issue with what ever is used as a weapon. Reduce the unregistered and illegal guns by doing door to door sweeps and lock them up for the crime.

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#71 2018-05-23 19:36:45

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,991
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Re: Advice to parents on school options

kbd512,

Do you not get it? I guess not. Here in Canada, gun laws are so strict that there are very few guns available for criminals. You claim criminals don't care about laws, so they can get a gun whenever they want. But there aren't many guns, and police track handguns so strictly that it's very difficult for a criminal to get one. Police hate legal gun collectors because criminals break into their house to take their stuff. There aren't many, and police watch them like a hawk. Collectors have to keep their collection in a gun safe. Seriously, a safe. Petty criminals don't have guns because it's so damn difficult to get one. Only serious criminals have connections to get one, and they won't be bothered with something petty like car jacking or robbing a convenience store.

I had previously posted my idea for Mars government. In "corporate government" I proposed people could own a gun, but not a weapon of war. That means you could own a handgun or riffle or shotgun, but not a repeating weapon. No Gatling gun, no M16, and not even an AR15 or equivalent. And police would have the same restriction: they wouldn't be allowed weapons of war. Certainly no tank, mortar, RPG, MANPADS, fighter jet, or attack helicopter. No grenade or landmine. But you can own all the fertilizer you want. However, your arguments make me want to clamp down more tightly. I want Mars to be libertarian, but your arguments are having the opposite effect on me.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2018-05-23 21:37:03)

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#72 2018-05-24 04:10:50

Terraformer
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From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,286
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Re: Advice to parents on school options

Robert, you're arguments are absolutely ridiculous. You think that the availability of guns is more important than the culture in determining the homicide rate. Which is BS. In response, you're probably going to start talking about "gun deaths", as if people actually care deeply about which way their murderer kills them.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#73 2018-05-24 10:11:34

kbd512
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Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 3,486

Re: Advice to parents on school options

Rob,

The murder rate per capita and the firearms ownership rate per capita have an inverse correlation.  Line up the numbers on a bar graph for every country on the planet and just look at what you see.  The US civilian populace has more guns than you can shake a stick at, but we don't come anywhere close to being #1 for murders committed with firearms.  It's absolutely unmistakable to anyone not wearing ideological blinders.  You should already know that I study this subject far more than any of the rest of you do.  That clearly doesn't matter to you, so long as you are firmly wedded to an emotionally driven ideology.  My ideology is tied to numbers.  If the data even came close to a correlation between firearms ownership per capita and murders per capita, then I would be helping you make your argument.  Humans are still humans, always and forever, no matter where they come from, how wealthy they are, how intelligent or unintelligent you believe them to be, etc.

What are "serious criminals"?  I'd say that anyone willing to use violence to take something from someone else qualifies, no matter how well or poorly connected to other criminals or organized crime, and that car jackings and other forms of robbery where violence is threatened or used are not "petty crimes".  Interestingly, all or nearly all justice systems define those crimes exactly as I do.  If someone who steals cars by force doesn't qualify as a "serious criminal", then what's a "petty criminal" or "petty crime"?

Death in America

99.4% of all deaths in America are not related to human versus human violence of any kind

.6% of all deaths in America are homicides

99.8% of homicides are not mass shootings

.2% of homicides are mass shootings

~5% of gun homicides are committed with rifles or shotguns, a portion of which are the dreaded AR-15's

~95% of gun homicides are committed with handguns

The homicide rate has been in steady decline in America since 1993, although some years it went up and down slightly, yet gun ownership, or at least NICS background checks, keeps going up, up, and away.  We should all be dead by now if gun control arguments held any water, but they clearly don't.  We should've shot everyone by now, except that it's pretty clear that what kills the most Americans by an absurdly high margin is not weapons of any kind.

Given those numbers, what actual problem do you think you're solving?  It's not death and it can't be murder since we were murdering each other long before guns ever existed.  I just want that 100 pound woman who's about to be brutally raped and killed by a man twice her size and strength to live long enough to explain to that Police Officer, who wasn't around when she needed him, how her would-be attacker received that fatal bullet wound to the chest.  Life wasn't "good" in the good 'ole days.  It was short, bleak, and brutal, especially if you weren't counted amongst the strongest of the strong.  If you were a child, a woman, or an old man, you didn't qualify.  There was nothing egalitarian about life before the means to adequately defend one's self without being stronger and faster than everyone else existed.

If this is about saving lives, then why have liberals never mounted such a crusade against motor vehicles?  They kill more Americans than guns, so why focus on guns and ignore cars completely?  My take on this is that death is just death and there sure seem to be lots of deaths from things other than firearms, but the US isn't even close to running out of people.  America's population grows every single year and there's no sign of that stopping or even slowing.  The liberals in the US have crusaded so heavily for legalizing murder through abortion that it's really difficult for me to take them seriously when they crusade against firearms.

No tanks, but load up on all the fertilizer (explosives) you want in a place where the only livable spaces are pressurized?  You REALLY haven't thought this through, have you?

I want Mars to be run by people with critical thinking skills and actual experience in whatever they're put in charge of.  That should prevent a lot of the problems we have here on Earth.  People who apply their emotions to problems that demand the use of basic math and logic is why half of humanity still lives like they did in the Pre-Industrial Age when we have jet aircraft and computers connected to everything.

America's government is a representative constitutional republic with democratic elections instead of a direct democracy because a majority of arrogant and/or ignorant people are not supposed to be able to subjugate everyone else based upon whatever ideas they have that don't mesh with reality.  We don't let the voters decide which fighter jets the military uses because most Americans have never flown a plane before, let alone used one as a weapon in combat.  Something either works as intended or it doesn't and the court of public opinion won't change that.

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#74 2018-05-24 11:55:30

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,991
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Re: Advice to parents on school options

List of countries by intentional homicide rate
UNODC murder rates (per 100,000 inhabitants). Most recent year UNODC has published

United States of America 4.88
Belgium     1.95
Canada      1.68
France     1.58
Denmark     0.99
Australia     0.98
Portugal     0.97
United Kingdom     0.92
New Zealand     0.91
Greece     0.85
Italy     0.78
Spain     0.66
Netherlands     0.61

I left out Germany, because you said you don't like them. This is the members of the European Union when it formed in 1992, as well as the US, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. I think that's a fair representation of the developed world. So what were you saying about "murder rate per capita and the firearms ownership rate per capita"?

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#75 2018-05-24 12:53:36

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,991
Website

Re: Advice to parents on school options

kbd512 wrote:

No tanks, but load up on all the fertilizer (explosives) you want in a place where the only livable spaces are pressurized?  You REALLY haven't thought this through, have you?

The Oklahoma bombing was conducted by an individual trained by US special forces to do exactly what he did. Many farmers knew for years how to use ammonium nitrate fertilizer plus diesel fuel to make explosive to destroy a tree stump. However, none of them know how to create a shaped charge, or how to demolish an office building. I challenge you to find on the internet how to use fertilizer to take down an office building like Oklahoma. This unfortunate individual was screwed, felt dis-empowered, so used his specialized military training because that's all he had. He was trained to do this to enemies, using nothing but supplies readily available in the modern civilian world, but unfortunately did this to a US government office. From stuff I found on the internet I could tell you how to make ammonium nitrate fertilizer from nothing but air, water, electricity, and equipment readily available at a hardware store. Of course I'm not going to post that; it could get me in trouble with authorities. My point is how to use fertilizer to take down an office building is not available. Mars soil doesn't have any nitrogen within detection limits of instruments sent to Mars, so greenhouses need nitrogen fertilizer. The most practical fertilizer is ammonium nitrate. But it's fertilzer; using it as explosive requires very specialized knowledge. Stop believing the crap government feeds you. That's just some bureaucrat or politician trying to cover his/her ass.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2018-05-24 19:33:18)

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